Earlier this week, a 14 year old boy used his mother’s credit card to purchase a plane ticket and board a flight using his mother’s name, Virginia.
When asked at the checkpoint, the boy told the TSA officer that his name was indeed Virginia. With names like Moon Unit, Apple, etc., I’m not shocked by anyone’s name anymore. There are many names out there that can be gender neutral. For example, his real name is Dakota, a name given to both males and females.
Minors under the age of 18 are not required to show ID. Regardless of age, everyone who goes through a security checkpoint is screened. The boy was screened and had nothing dangerous on him.
TSA’s mission is to protect the Nation’s transportation systems to ensure freedom of movement for people and commerce. At the end of the day, we did just that. No dangerous items made it onto the plane.
We’re glad Dakota’s family was able to locate him and bring him home safely.
Thanks,
Blogger Bob
TSA Blog Team
81 comments:
And the fact that he was screened and carried nothing dangerous stands as a stark reminder that TSA's obsession with identification does absolutely nothing to make anyone safer. Thank you for admitting this, Bob. I trust TSA will now end its ID checks and put its trained document checkers to work doing something less pointless.
Thats good to know... so how exactly do you verify if a person is a minor? Can I just walk up to the checkpoint say "I am under 18, and don't have ID" and then get on and fly as if Airport security made sense and didn't have ridiculous restrictions like the need to show ID?
Are people under 18 somehow magically prevented from being terrorists by their magical "minor field"? Or is this perhaps an admission that showing ID doesn't really do anything useful?
-Steve
I think this really illustrates how the need for ANYONE (airline or TSA) to verify a person's ID has ZERO to do with real security.
Allow me to join the chorus of people asking what's the point of having ID checks if the screeners are doing what they're supposed to do and making sure nothing dangerous gets aboard the plane.
Thanks for telling us that the TSA is wasting taxpayer money looking at ID's when as you admit it really doesn't add anything to safety.
When will the useless TDC function be eliminated?
As a TSO the rule about minors is simply this. If a person appears under the age of 18 I don't have to ask them for an ID, but I still can if I find it necessary. For instance a man approached an officer at our checkpoint the other week with his two sons. The first thing the man said to the officer very quickly was "They are under 18 you don't have to see their ID's". The officer asked for the ID's anyways and found one to be 19 and the other to be 21. We aren't fools, and the only reason they made this rule is because most minors don't have any form of identification. I am not even going to try and argue needing the TDC all I am going to say is it only takes about 30 seconds to do and it really is not something worth spending the time complaining about.
Exactly what Anonymous said. In Blogger Bob's own words: "TSA’s mission is to protect the Nation’s transportation systems to ensure freedom of movement for people and commerce. At the end of the day, we did just that. No dangerous items made it onto the plane."
All without checking ID.
One if these two statements must be true:
1) It is possible to safely and appropriate screen travelers without all the ID checks.
2) Letting the boy through was a potential risk to security.
What's interesting to me, besides the obvious minor issues, is reading the comments at the linked article is that people are saying "TSA should've stopped him because Virginia is a girl's name." I have to agree with Bob, I'm not only not surprised by names anymore, but his name is Dakota which I've only heard used as a girl's name.
I'll defend many TSA practices. I think people need to be thoroughly screened before getting on a plane, and if that makes people uncomfortable, that's unfortunate.
However, the explanation for the ID policy has never been clearly explained. IDs can be convincingly faked, and even if they couldn't, as long as the person is screened properly, it shouldn't matter who he or she is.
Note to self: Recruit children when planning terrorist activities.
Seriously: If the TSA is going to claim that checking ID against boarding pass is needed for security, then not a single person should ever be allowed to fly without one, whether that person is 18, 55, 12, or 2 weeks old.
More seriously: Just to be absolutely clear, the correct solution is to not check ID.
Is it a fair assumption that the TSA doesn't require this due to the difficulty of obtaining ID for minors, and they don't want to do anything that might impact the bottom lines of the airlines? Oh wait, they already do that far too well, since I no longer fly with the current security theater in place. :-P
And the fact that he was screened and carried nothing dangerous stands as a stark reminder that TSA's obsession with identification does absolutely nothing to make anyone safer
Osama Bin Laden walks into an airport, gets checked & walks on in the airplane. You just happen to sit next to him & see his ticket. What do you do?
A. Freakout
B. Call FLight Attenedent
C. Sit calmly & hope he doesn't talk to you
Identification IS a very important part of the screening setup. We should be thankful that TSA does check ID's. I wouldn't want to be sitting next to OJ Simpson or John Allen Muhammed.
"I am not even going to try and argue needing the TDC all I am going to say is it only takes about 30 seconds to do and it really is not something worth spending the time complaining about."
Of course you're not going to try to argue it. TSA can't even argue it. Neither Bob nor any other TSA representative nor any TSA apologist has ever been able to explain HOW identity is related to security -- for the very good reason that there is no such relationship.
In my experience, the ID checks can take much longer than 30 seconds, particularly when TSOs encounter valid but unfamiliar forms of ID. Multiply that times every passenger in line and you've got yourself one more reason why America hates TSA.
"Osama Bin Laden walks into an airport, gets checked & walks on in the airplane."
If someone has been screened properly, then they're not a threat.
Currently, if your name is on the no-fly list and you try to board a passenger flight in the US, you will not be allowed to. That said, you won't be arrested or detained either. That means Mr. Bin Laden can try as many times as he wants to buy tickets and get on a plane, and he'll never ever go to jail for it. (He might go to jail for his involvement in 9/11 though.)
Likewise, you can try as many times as you want to bring extra liquids onboard, and you won't ever go to jail for it. I bring a tube of toothpaste in my carry-on every time I fly. It gets confiscated about half the time.
ID checks and liquid bans do nothing to make us more secure, since people can try again and again without fear of punishment. They are a complete waste of resources.
Also, remember that the TSA doesn't do much for general aviation. Mr. Bin Laden could charter a jet if he felt like it. He could even bring liquids and weapons on board.
Osama bin Laden, John Allen Mohamend, and OJ Simpson are booked on the same flight as me: all three clear security screening (WTMD, puffer, millimeter-wave radar, SSS, etc.)
Why should I care what their names are? Why should I care what their politics are, or their criminal history?
If security screening is about security, it doesn't matter what someone's name is.
That's good that Dakota family got him back but there should be some measure checks as we can't make fool airport security by saying that I am under 18 & don't have ID. Some steps should be taken.
How do you verify if a person is under 18 in order to need ID? I find that most US teenagers look a lot older than they are, which means anyone who is under, say, 30, can probably get away with arguing that they are 17...
Steve wrote:
"Are people under 18 somehow magically prevented from being terrorists by their magical "minor field"?"
Obviously not, Steve, because TSA forces parents to remove toddlers' shoes and makes them go through WTMD, etc., etc., etc.
TSOWilliamReed said:
As a TSO the rule about minors is simply this. If a person appears under the age of 18 I don't have to ask them for an ID, but I still can if I find it necessary. For instance a man approached an officer at our checkpoint the other week with his two sons. The first thing the man said to the officer very quickly was "They are under 18 you don't have to see their ID's". The officer asked for the ID's anyways and found one to be 19 and the other to be 21.
__________
Wait. You "don't have to ask them for an ID" but "you can"? Are they required to show it? Are they required to show ID if they don't have ID?
If the two sons in your story had simply repeated, "We're under 18, we don't have IDs", what can you do? You lucked out that they gave in and showed IDs that proved they were older than 18 but what if they hadn't? Are the airlines in Alaska doing so well financially that they can afford losing passengers when you start deciding someone is lying about their age and refuse to let them through?
I know lots of 17-year-olds that look 20 or older. I know some 23-year-olds that look 17. Someone once mistook my 30-year-old friend for a teenager. You must be a legend if you can accurately distinguish between 17-and-a-half and 18-and-a-half.
Another anonymous wrote:
Osama Bin Laden walks into an airport, gets checked & walks on in the airplane. You just happen to sit next to him & see his ticket. What do you do?
A. Freakout
B. Call FLight Attenedent
C. Sit calmly & hope he doesn't talk to you
None of the above. You left out the two responses I would have.
D. Hope that the TSA screener wasn't so busy with Grandma's denture cream and the four-year-old's toy pirate sword that they didn't miss a bomb in Mr BL's bag. (Actually, I'd do this regardless of who I was sitting next to!)
E. Before takeoff, text the FBI (ie. real law enforcement, not imitation) to collect Mr BL at the destination airport, and spend the flight figuring out how I was going to spend the reward.
I fail to see how this had anything to do with TSA, anymore than the airline or any public transportation the child used. I don't think TSA's mission should include child protection services.
This ID business is more job justification than serious security. The US hasn't learned from the UK debacle as briefly explained here and is doomed to repeat it.
TSOWilliamReed said...
As a TSO the rule about minors is simply this. If a person appears under the age of 18 I don't have to ask them for an ID, but I still can if I find it necessary. For instance a man approached an officer at our checkpoint the other week with his two sons. The first thing the man said to the officer very quickly was "They are under 18 you don't have to see their ID's". The officer asked for the ID's anyways and found one to be 19 and the other to be 21. We aren't fools, and the only reason they made this rule is because most minors don't have any form of identification. I am not even going to try and argue needing the TDC all I am going to say is it only takes about 30 seconds to do and it really is not something worth spending the time complaining about.
October 7, 2009 5:16 PM
.........................
William, the 30 seconds you talk about is just totally wrong.
It may be 30 seconds while you look at a persons ID but what about the other 10 minutes are so waiting in line to get to you?
As has been clearly stated and not refuted by TSA identity has no bearing on air safety. The only thing that does is screening people for WEI.
Since TSA has elected to not follow the manadate that Congress laid out for TSA by not screening everyone and everything that enters the secure areas of airports TSA provides almost ZERO real security.
How old is the average suicide bombing terrorist over where they actually have suicide bombing terrorists?
The ID policy is for protecting airline revenue, not security.
Annon said...
Osama Bin Laden walks into an airport, gets checked & walks on in the airplane. You just happen to sit next to him & see his ticket. What do you do?
A. Freakout
B. Call FLight Attenedent
C. Sit calmly & hope he doesn't talk to you
Identification IS a very important part of the screening setup. We should be thankful that TSA does check ID's. I wouldn't want to be sitting next to OJ Simpson or John Allen Muhammed.
-----------------------------------
D. Read my book and not care because he doesn't have W,E,or I in his possession.
E. Alert a flight attendant so we can be met on the ground by the Police.
I don't care much about who is on the plane with me (unless they are overly chatty and ignore my body language that says bug off and shut up).
On a completely unrelated topic, according to Japanese newspaper:
2009/10/07: Screening personell at Narita Airport in Japan caught an US Citizen enroute to Bangkok carrying loaded handgun in hand luggage.
Apparently the airport security in Dallas airport missed it.
http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/national/news/20091007-OYT1T00365.htm
On the side note;
The occupation of arrested American was a "photographer". It would be reasonable to assume that he had considerable experience in shooting people.
RB said...
TSOWilliamReed said...
As a TSO the rule about minors is simply this. If a person appears under the age of 18 I don't have to ask them for an ID, but I still can if I find it necessary. For instance a man approached an officer at our checkpoint the other week with his two sons. The first thing the man said to the officer very quickly was "They are under 18 you don't have to see their ID's". The officer asked for the ID's anyways and found one to be 19 and the other to be 21. We aren't fools, and the only reason they made this rule is because most minors don't have any form of identification. I am not even going to try and argue needing the TDC all I am going to say is it only takes about 30 seconds to do and it really is not something worth spending the time complaining about.
October 7, 2009 5:16 PM
.........................
William, the 30 seconds you talk about is just totally wrong.
It may be 30 seconds while you look at a persons ID but what about the other 10 minutes are so waiting in line to get to you?
As has been clearly stated and not refuted by TSA identity has no bearing on air safety. The only thing that does is screening people for WEI.
Since TSA has elected to not follow the manadate that Congress laid out for TSA by not screening everyone and everything that enters the secure areas of airports TSA provides almost ZERO real security.
----------------------
RB, even if their wasn't a TDC you would still be waiting in line just as long. I know this because 90% of the time the line goes past my TDC podium during our peak hours. When the line is past my podium the person whos ID I just checked still has to wait in line directly in front of me. If I wasn't there he would still be waiting in line in the same spot for the same exact amount of time. Checking ID is just a small piece of security like checking ID at the bank or at the social security office. Have you been to a social security office lately? Last time I was at one their was an armed LEO waiting out front for anyone going in to show him an ID, if you didn't have an ID you couldn't get in. All the TDC does is prove that you are the person the airline says you are and when doing this it also proves that you are not on the no-fly list. It takes no time, is ridiculously cheap, and shouldn't be a problem so why not use it? Explain to me how not using the TDC position would make airport security faster or better.
TSOWilliamReed said...
RB, even if their wasn't a TDC you would still be waiting in line just as long. I know this because 90% of the time the line goes past my TDC podium during our peak hours. When the line is past my podium the person whos ID I just checked still has to wait in line directly in front of me. If I wasn't there he would still be waiting in line in the same spot for the same exact amount of time. Checking ID is just a small piece of security like checking ID at the bank or at the social security office. Have you been to a social security office lately? Last time I was at one their was an armed LEO waiting out front for anyone going in to show him an ID, if you didn't have an ID you couldn't get in. All the TDC does is prove that you are the person the airline says you are and when doing this it also proves that you are not on the no-fly list. It takes no time, is ridiculously cheap, and shouldn't be a problem so why not use it? Explain to me how not using the TDC position would make airport security faster or better.
October 8, 2009 12:10 PM
.................
I departed DFW a few weeks ago. Waited in line for near 10 minutes waiting for a TDC. There was NO line after the TDC so I would say your observation may only be accurate for your airport. It certainly was not for that period of time at DFW.
The TDC looking at an ID proves nothing.
You don't have the entire DNF list at your podium or memorized, your only comparing that the two documents match by name.
Lets say that your 30 seconds is right though. If somewhere around 2 million people travel by air per day and each one takes about 30 seconds then that is a substantial amount of time wasted on doing things that add little if any additional safety or security to air travel.
Why not use those wasted man-hours to secure the supposedly sterile area and screen everyone who enters the secure areas of airports?
That would truly benefit security and perhaps would have stopped 322 suitcases from being loaded on commercial aircraft without TSA being aware.
To date I have seen nothing stated by TSA that truly details how checking ID does anything for safety!
"Checking ID is just a small piece of security like checking ID at the bank or at the social security office."
How does checking IDs provide security? Neither you nor anyone else at TSA has ever been able to answer this question.
"Explain to me how not using the TDC position would make airport security faster or better."
It would mean one less pointless obstacle between citizens and their flights. It would mean passengers wouldn't have to stop and get their IDs out of their purse or wallet, so lines would run more smoothly. It would free up TSA employees to do something that would actually improve flight security, like checking cargo (coming to an airport near you sometime next year, no matter what year it is!).
TSOWilliamReed said:
"RB, even if their wasn't a TDC you would still be waiting in line just as long. I know this because 90% of the time the line goes past my TDC podium during our peak hours. When the line is past my podium the person whos ID I just checked still has to wait in line directly in front of me. If I wasn't there he would still be waiting in line in the same spot for the same exact amount of time. Checking ID is just a small piece of security like checking ID at the bank or at the social security office. Have you been to a social security office lately? Last time I was at one their was an armed LEO waiting out front for anyone going in to show him an ID, if you didn't have an ID you couldn't get in. All the TDC does is prove that you are the person the airline says you are and when doing this it also proves that you are not on the no-fly list. It takes no time, is ridiculously cheap, and shouldn't be a problem so why not use it? Explain to me how not using the TDC position would make airport security faster or better.
----------------------
Oh Please.
Well, for one it would free up a screener(s) to work in the actual screening process (metal detector, bag scanner, etc.), thus accelerating passenger flow through the checkpoint. If the checkpoint is already fully staffed and more screeners wouldn't speed things up, then you could reduce the total number of screeners, thus saving taxpayer money.
As far as your social security office reference, that 'armed LEO ID-checker' is also a useless position. Does that person check the ID against any database? No. The whole point of that is just to limit people going into the office, the same is done at my local courthouse- no ID, no entry. But if you have ID, they just look at it, don't log your name, or check your name against anything, just let you in. So how does that help "security"?
Others have said the same thing, but I'll chime in, too ...
TSOWilliamReed writes:
All the TDC does is prove that you are the person the airline says you are
Nope. All it proves is that you vaguely look like the person on the ID card, and that the name on the ID card matches the name on the boarding pass. (If you're even required to show an ID ... recall that this thread started with a minor lying about his identity and getting away with it, because he wasn't required to prove it with an ID card.)
and when doing this it also proves that you are not on the no-fly list.
No it doesn't ... because the TDC isn't checking names against the no-fly list. Given how demonstrably easy it is to forge a boarding pass, it would be trivial for someone on the no-fly list to forge a boarding pass in their own name and present it to the TDC.
Explain to me how not using the TDC position would make airport security faster or better.
As others have pointed out ... if the TDC position was eliminated, the employee who formerly staffed the position could help with passenger and carry-on baggage screening, making either of those processes either faster or better (or perhaps both).
Whether that would be a better use of resources than ID checking is, of course, a matter for reasonable debate.
At October 8, 2009 12:10 TSOWilliamReed said, " [much content deleted] ...Explain to me how not using the TDC position would make airport security faster or better."
OK, here goes:
1. Faster - Elimninating the TDC function would allow diversion of those employees to other, arguably useful, duties, such as opening additional screening lanes, secondary screening, bin shuffling, etc. Anything that helps provide additional lanes would reduce wait times and help speed passengers on their way.
2. Better - By elminiating training time, supervision, and focus on a pointless exercise, screeners would be able to put more concentration on keeping WEI out of the "sterile" side of the airports. Increasing the likelihood of sucessfully catching WEI would make screening better.
T-the-B at Flyertalk
> Osama Bin Laden walks into an
> airport, gets checked & walks on in
> the airplane. You just happen to sit
> next to him & see his ticket. What do
> you do?
D. assume that its not THE ossama bin laden.
E. Realize that he is a human being and that by talking to him like one I might come to understand better people who think like him, and maybe in some small way, show him that Americans are just people?
F. Try to get his side of the story as to why he went from being our ally to our enemy? Actually there are several things about his viewpoint and his movement that I would probably have me wishing it was a really long flight. I would really like to know what he thinks of the studies that have shown that terrorist attacks are only effective against military targets.
> Identification IS a very important
> part of the screening setup. We
> should be thankful that TSA does
> check ID's. I wouldn't want to be
> sitting next to OJ Simpson or John
> Allen Muhammed.
I didn't know the point of the no-fly list was to protect you from having to sit next to someone that makes you uncomfortable.
-Steve
That is nice but then how are you going to keep people that are not flying or working in the sterile area outside of the sterile area? How are you going to match known terrorists with the no fly list?
TSO William Reed said in part...."All the TDC does is prove that you are the person the airline says you are and when doing this it also proves that you are not on the no-fly list."
....................
William I've been pondering over this statement of yours all evening.
A few days ago you didn't know that a Nexus card was a valid form of ID and today you tell us you can look at an ID and know the person is who the airline says they are and even know if the person is a terrorist or not.
I'm sorry, but I just can't buy into that.
You have nothing but your memory to use at the TDC position, you may not know what security enhancements some ID's use and I bet you don't have access to the NFL at your level in the TSA organization.
Seriously, tell me how as a TDC you add to my safety as a passenger on an airplane.
Identification IS a very important part of the screening setup. We should be thankful that TSA does check ID's. I wouldn't want to be sitting next to OJ Simpson or John Allen Muhammed.
You won't be sitting next to O.J. Simpson because he's in prison, not because of any TSA watch list matching. AFAIK, having a felony conviction on your record doesn't necessarily place you on the no-fly or selectee list; please correct me if I'm wrong. So, if OJ managed to get out of jail tomorrow, nothing would stop him from using his real ID to buy a plane ticket, clear security, and yes, sit right next to you! Do you realize what would happen to the cost of airport security if they had to run a criminal records check on everyone who flies? OJ might be a scumbag criminal, but I don't think you'd find his name in a terrorist database.
Anyway, what is the point of this post? It sounds like TSA is being defensive about something that's not even their responsibility. The kid obviously lacks good parenting if his parents have no control over him and give him access to their credit cards. I don't think anyone is blaming TSA that he "slipped by security".
Let me make sure I have all the facts. A 6 foot 2 inch 200 pound man sized boy with Asperger's syndrome (causes poor social skills) gets cleared by the document checker after he convinces that person his name is Virginia? And NO ALARM BELLS went off?
WOW, just WOW. Glad you guys are not protecting something important like a 7-11.
I am so torn by this story, on the one hand it proves the illegal forced ID verification, as a criterion for granting access to the sterile area, is a farce and on the other hand it shows a complete failure by not only the document checker but the BDOs too.
I am not sure what bugs me most, the illegal forced ID verification or the complete incompetence by the agency that is charged with protecting us.
If you guys are going to break the law, at least do it well. The TSA is like a thief that breaks into your house and then falls asleep on the couch.
"That is nice but then how are you going to keep people that are not flying or working in the sterile area outside of the sterile area?"
Who cares if they're flying or working, as long as they're not carrying weapons?
"How are you going to match known terrorists with the no fly list?"
Checking IDs does nothing to match known terrorists with the no-fly list.
By the way, you have yet to articulate how ID checks do anything to enhance security.
TSOWilliamReed said: "That is nice but then how are you going to keep people that are not flying or working in the sterile area outside of the sterile area? How are you going to match known terrorists with the no fly list?"
Last question first, unless the document checker has memorized the entire no-fly list they aren't doing that in the first place. As many others have pointed out all the document checker is doing is conirming you look like the person on tthe ID you present and the name on tha ID matches the boarding pass you pre3sent.
For the first question, that's a simple one, just have the TSA document checker confirm that the individual has a boarding pass or valid airport ID that permits access to the sterile area. That person then gets screened to ensure they are not taking anything dangerous into the sterile area an you have fulfilled they mission of the security check point and can pat yourselves on the back for a job well done.
TSOWilliamReed said:
"That is nice but then how are you going to keep people that are not flying or working in the sterile area outside of the sterile area? How are you going to match known terrorists with the no fly list?"
---------
Why is it important to keep non-flying or non-working people out of the sterile area? TSA only does it to reduce your workload, not for any security benefit.
If everyone is screened, what does it matter if they're flying or not?
Pre-9/11 this was never an issue, why now? Has there been any situation where a non-flyer has caused trouble in a sterile area that a flyer couldn't have done the same?
And since I can request and get a pass from the airline to accompany someone to the gate (and have done so many times), you're not really keeping non-flyers out of the sterile area anyway, are you?
Since all the 9/11 hijackers had valid ID's, tickets, and boarding passes, exactly what benefit would a TDC have been at the time and what security benefit does it have today?
And you're not matching names against a no-fly list, so that argument is irrelevant.
If the airline wants to do an ID check before boarding for revenue protection, that's their business and their right. In my opinion, TSA doing an ID check is a pointless waste of people, resources, taxpayer dollars, and travelers' time.
I look forward to your thoughts on my questions above.
Blogger Bob!!! I enjoyed your interview on TSA TV today. Looking good!!!
As a TSO the rule about minors is simply this. If a person appears under the age of 18 I don't have to ask them for an ID, but I still can if I find it necessary. For instance a man approached an officer at our checkpoint the other week with his two sons. The first thing the man said to the officer very quickly was "They are under 18 you don't have to see their ID's". The officer asked for the ID's anyways and found one to be 19 and the other to be 21. We aren't fools, and the only reason they made this rule is because most minors don't have any form of identification. I am not even going to try and argue needing the TDC all I am going to say is it only takes about 30 seconds to do and it really is not something worth spending the time complaining about.
__________________________________________
Gee, thanks, TSOWilliamReed. Clearly your brave insistence on seeing these lads' ID has played a great roll in protecting this, the greatest nation on God's green earth!
Carp stated: "I would really like to know what he thinks of the studies that have shown that terrorist attacks are only effective against military targets."
What? Do you actually believe that statement? It is pretty effective at killing people, has been for years.
I dont want to dig up the past, but it took them sometime to clear me out of the rubble in Beirut in 83, I still carry the scars from it. They are killing people in the streets daily, usually civilians, not military.
And a big by the way, the ID were being checked at every airport I flew out of for a couple of years PRIOR to TSA doing it and no one complained, in fact it was the opposite, people were asking why some minimum hour person was checking ID's? Really, TSA cant win for lose sometimes. Yes I work for TSA, have been since the beginning. You want answers, ask me I will tell you the truth, but you will still not believe me.
Semper Fi 7585 Force Recon.
Bob would you tell us what safety function is being met by checking ID's at the boarding gates as has been reported from around the country?
Thanks.
TSA checks your ID for two reasons;
1. To weed out any potential terrorists who probably do not have legitimate ID from entering the sterile area. And...
2. To better track travelling patterns from anyone the FBI, CIA, or any other law enforcment group is tracking. The airlines were not given equipment to see if ID was forged or not. Better to leave that job to security imo.
All TDC does it check to see that you are not using a fake ID to get through security. If you are using fake ID, why?
Would you feel as safe sitting next to someone (terrorist or not) who took the time and effort in obtaining a fake ID? Or sitting next to someone (terrorist or not) with state obtained ID? These people will not have weapons, explosives, or incediaries on them, but people with ill intent dont need those items to do harm.
And still nothing on the Jason Chaffetz incident... Are you just going to pretend that this never happened? Do we really have to keep fighting to affirm our right to be hand-groped by your highly-trained officers?
Anonymous said...
TSA checks your ID for two reasons;
1. To weed out any potential terrorists who probably do not have legitimate ID from entering the sterile area. And...
2. To better track travelling patterns from anyone the FBI, CIA, or any other law enforcment group is tracking. The airlines were not given equipment to see if ID was forged or not. Better to leave that job to security imo.
All TDC does it check to see that you are not using a fake ID to get through security. If you are using fake ID, why?
Would you feel as safe sitting next to someone (terrorist or not) who took the time and effort in obtaining a fake ID? Or sitting next to someone (terrorist or not) with state obtained ID? These people will not have weapons, explosives, or incediaries on them, but people with ill intent dont need those items to do harm.
October 11, 2009 6:49 PM
...............
Anon, the question to Bob was why is TSA checking ID's at the gates.
Tjhey have already been checked to just enter the sterile area so again what purpose is served to check them again?
In the same light what purpose is served to screen people at the gate while boarding since they have already been screened?
As far as a bad actor getting on the airplane, if TSA does its core job and prevents WEI from entering the secure area then what threat do these people present?
I think the bigger question and one that TSA refuses to answer is why can thousands of people, cargo and other materials enter the secure area without benefit of any screening of any kind?
Answer that last question!
Anonymous writes:
TSA checks your ID for two reasons;
1. To weed out any potential terrorists who probably do not have legitimate ID from entering the sterile area.
All of the 9/11 hijackers presented legitimate ID when they entered the sterile area.
2. To better track travelling patterns from anyone the FBI, CIA, or any other law enforcment group is tracking.
That doesn't happen right now. When I present my ID to a TDC, the TDC has no idea whether I'm a person of interest to any law enforcement group. All they have in front of me is the ID card I've presented to them, a piece of paper which looks like a boarding pass, and my relatively ugly face.
So, neither of those reasons holds up to scrutiny ...
"TSA checks your ID for two reasons;
1. To weed out any potential terrorists who probably do not have legitimate ID from entering the sterile area. And...
2. To better track travelling patterns from anyone the FBI, CIA, or any other law enforcment group is tracking. The airlines were not given equipment to see if ID was forged or not. Better to leave that job to security imo."
TSA's ID checks do neither of those things. Why are TSA and its apologists incapable of explaining the link they claim exists between ID and security? Whenever anyone asks, they either says something that TSA's ID checks don't do, or simply shout louder. Pathetic.
When will TSA make a statement about the incident involving Congressman Chaffetz?
Seems TSA would want to clear the air if TSA employees did not abuse the Congressman.
Anonymous @ 10/11 6:49 PM said...
2. To better track travelling patterns from anyone the FBI, CIA, or any other law enforcment group is tracking. The airlines were not given equipment to see if ID was forged or not. Better to leave that job to security imo.
---
That doesn't happen. And it's a good thing. FBI tracking people by their travelling patterns? That's absolutely Orwellian.
Bob, more reports of people being subjected to "Enhanced Patdowns" after refusal to submit to TSA MMW STRIP SEARCHES are turning up.
TSA's rules say that the "Enhanced Patdown" will only be used after all other means to clear an alarm have been exhausted.
For readers who don't know the "Enhanced Patdown" required TSA employees to touch a persons genitals.
Is this TSA's way to force people into accepting the Strip Search Machines?
That doesn't happen. And it's a good thing. FBI tracking people by their travelling patterns?
But thats exactly what the FBI did with the colorado terrorist suspect. They saw that he travelled to afganistan and pakistan. I doubt they made that up.
@ Jim H.
All of the 9/11 hijackers presented legitimate ID when they entered the sterile area.
But remember, that was PRE 9/11. FBI and CIA run things a bit differently now.
Well, all this security does wonders in US to protect us from the terrorists or criminals, but what about the people who are coming from other countries like pakistan, iran and afghanistan. Security systems there are weak. One can be there to actually see how weak the system is. Take a hold of the muslim priests that tend to travel alot and create dissonance amongst muslims and other religious groups in US.
I wrote:
All of the 9/11 hijackers presented legitimate ID when they entered the sterile area.
Anonymous responded:
But remember, that was PRE 9/11. FBI and CIA run things a bit differently now.
How? Can the FBI and CIA deny you the ability to get an identity card? Or revoke it, once you are determined to be a terrorist?
The fact remains that checking ID cards doesn't weed out potential terrorists ... which was one of the purported benefits of checking IDs at a TSA checkpoint.
RB claimed…
For readers who don't know the "Enhanced Patdown" required TSA employees to touch a persons genitals.
Is this TSA's way to force people into accepting the Strip Search Machines?
--------------------------
RB, please don’t try the scare tactics, we are never allowed to touch a passengers genitals. If we suspect that a passenger has something in this area we ask them to remove it. If they refuse then they don’t get into the sterile area. LEO’s might also be called, that’s up to each individual supervisor, but until the question can be cleared up the check point is as far as they get.
TSORon said...
RB claimed…
For readers who don't know the "Enhanced Patdown" required TSA employees to touch a persons genitals.
Is this TSA's way to force people into accepting the Strip Search Machines?
--------------------------
RB, please don’t try the scare tactics, we are never allowed to touch a passengers genitals. If we suspect that a passenger has something in this area we ask them to remove it. If they refuse then they don’t get into the sterile area. LEO’s might also be called, that’s up to each individual supervisor, but until the question can be cleared up the check point is as far as they get.
October 14, 2009 1:19 PM
..............
TSORon, are you claiming that the "Enhanced Patdown" does not require the TSA employee using the back or side of the hand to probe the groin (crotch) of a male passenger?
TSORon said...
RB claimed…
For readers who don't know the "Enhanced Patdown" required TSA employees to touch a persons genitals.
Is this TSA's way to force people into accepting the Strip Search Machines?
--------------------------
RB, please don’t try the scare tactics, we are never allowed to touch a passengers genitals. If we suspect that a passenger has something in this area we ask them to remove it. If they refuse then they don’t get into the sterile area. LEO’s might also be called, that’s up to each individual supervisor, but until the question can be cleared up the check point is as far as they get.
October 14, 2009 1:19 PM
..........................
http://www.tsa.gov/press/happenings/enhanced_patdown.shtm
"The enhanced pat-down will be used only after all other screening methods have been used and the alarm remains unresolved. This pat down will include the breast area of women and the groin area of both men and women. Passengers required to undergo this level of screening will be afforded the opportunity to divest all items that could be the source of the alarm before the protocol is used and private screening will be made available. The officers who conduct the searches will receive special training to perform them appropriately and with regard for the privacy concerns of passengers."
So TSOwRONgy, dispute this!
The fact remains that checking ID cards doesn't weed out potential terrorists ... which was one of the purported benefits of checking IDs at a TSA checkpoint.
Jim-
Checking ID is just another hurdle that terrorist have to get passed to carry out their evil deeds. One of my points im trying to get through to you is that the TDC checks for fraudulent ID's. Are you telling me fake ID's dont exist?
Quoted:
"TSA's rules say that the "Enhanced Patdown" will only be used after all other means to clear an alarm have been exhausted."
From RB
------------------------
RB, you yourself said "only" and especially "AFTER ALL OTHER MEANS TO CLEAR AN ALARM HAVE BEEN EXHAUSTED" Yet further on you say that the "enhanced patdown" REQUIRES TSOs to touch a persons genitals.
These two statements are at odds with each other or don't you see that?
If a person does not alarm in the crotch area, there is no need for "touching thier genitals".
If a person does alarm in the crotch area, we must clear the alarm and we don't have to "touch thier genitals" to do it.
Or should we just allow them to go on thier way with whatever they have hidden there (like a grenade!).
TSORon said...
RB claimed…
For readers who don't know the "Enhanced Patdown" required TSA employees to touch a persons genitals.
Is this TSA's way to force people into accepting the Strip Search Machines?
--------------------------
RB, please don’t try the scare tactics, we are never allowed to touch a passengers genitals. If we suspect that a passenger has something in this area we ask them to remove it. If they refuse then they don’t get into the sterile area. LEO’s might also be called, that’s up to each individual supervisor, but until the question can be cleared up the check point is as far as they get.
October 14, 2009 1:19 PM
...................
From TSA:
http://www.tsa.gov/press/happenings/enhanced_patdown.shtm
What is odd and so far TSA refuses to answer is why is this pat down used on those people who refuse the MMW/Backscatter STRIP SEARCH abuse when the following is stated about the "Enhanced Pat Down";
"The enhanced pat-down will be used only after all other screening methods have been used and the alarm remains unresolved. This pat down will include the breast area of women and the groin area of both men and women. Passengers required to undergo this level of screening will be afforded the opportunity to divest all items that could be the source of the alarm before the protocol is used and private screening will be made available. The officers who conduct the searches will receive special training to perform them appropriately and with regard for the privacy concerns of passengers."
It would seem that if a person does not alarm the WTMD, HHMD or other screening method then use of the aggressive and abusive "Enhanced Pat Down" is just a means of intimidation and punishment for those people who refuse the STRIP SEARCH MACHINE.
It is clear that if no alarm is noted this practiced violates TSA's stated policy and is clearly a civil rights violation and a criminal act of assault by the TSA employee using the "Enhanced Pat Down" where policy clearly states it is not authorized.
I would suggest that TSORon might want to watch the video of an "enhanced pat down" male, lower body, before he makes any further statements.
RB asked ...
"TSORon, are you claiming that the "Enhanced Patdown" does not require the TSA employee using the back or side of the hand to probe the groin (crotch) of a male passenger?"
-----------
Exactly.
RB said
In the same light what purpose is served to screen people at the gate while boarding since they have already been screened?
As far as a bad actor getting on the airplane, if TSA does its core job and prevents WEI from entering the secure area then what threat do these people present?
I think the bigger question and one that TSA refuses to answer is why can thousands of people, cargo and other materials enter the secure area without benefit of any screening of any kind?
-----------------------------------
I think you answered your first question with your last question.
If you remember the Phil incident where an airport employee brought a weapon through the secure area into the sterile area for a friend, the additional screening at the checkpoints is another way to fill the gap of not conducting 100% screening of airport employees.
As far as your last question. the cargo screening is on schedule. The screening of all airport employees isn't completely up to TSA. You have to remember that airports are privately owned and the stakeholders have a say in how their employees are treated. Thats why TSA keeps coming up with additional screening proceedures to include ADASP and Playbook. These are unpredictable screening programs and are another form of a deterrence to those who try to circumvent security. As these programs get fine tuned security gets better. This is the best I can explain without getting into SSI, but considering all of your posts it won't be enough for you. You'll still have a problem with every proceedure TSA uses even when those proceedures are put into place because of the concerns brought up by the people who post here honestly looking for better security and not just to bad mouth TSA.
Jim-
Checking ID is just another hurdle that terrorist have to get passed to carry out their evil deeds. One of my points im trying to get through to you is that the TDC checks for fraudulent ID's. Are you telling me fake ID's dont exist?
October 14, 2009 6:20 PM
...................
If a person with a fake ID is divested of all dangerous items then what danger does the ID present?
Simple fact is that ID does not matter!
TSORon said...
RB asked ...
"TSORon, are you claiming that the "Enhanced Patdown" does not require the TSA employee using the back or side of the hand to probe the groin (crotch) of a male passenger?"
-----------
Exactly.
October 15, 2009 2:01 PM
................
Looks like your maintaining your art of being wrong most of the time.
Again I refer you to your own agency.
http://www.tsa.gov/press/happenings/enhanced_patdown.shtm
"The enhanced pat-down will be used only after all other screening methods have been used and the alarm remains unresolved. This pat down will include the breast area of women and the groin area of both men and women. Passengers required to undergo this level of screening will be afforded the opportunity to divest all items that could be the source of the alarm before the protocol is used and private screening will be made available. The officers who conduct the searches will receive special training to perform them appropriately and with regard for the privacy concerns of passengers."
TSM, Been here.... said...
Quoted:
"TSA's rules say that the "Enhanced Patdown" will only be used after all other means to clear an alarm have been exhausted."
From RB
------------------------
RB, you yourself said "only" and especially "AFTER ALL OTHER MEANS TO CLEAR AN ALARM HAVE BEEN EXHAUSTED" Yet further on you say that the "enhanced patdown" REQUIRES TSOs to touch a persons genitals.
These two statements are at odds with each other or don't you see that?
If a person does not alarm in the crotch area, there is no need for "touching thier genitals".
If a person does alarm in the crotch area, we must clear the alarm and we don't have to "touch thier genitals" to do it.
Or should we just allow them to go on thier way with whatever they have hidden there (like a grenade!).
October 15, 2009 10:56 AM
..............
I think you have missed the point.
Travelers are reporting that if they refuse the WBI STRIP SEARCH MACHINE they are subjected to the "Enhanced Pat Down".
If these reports are true then that indicates that TSA is using an agressive means to force acceptance of the STRIP SEARCH MACHINES by employing the highly invasive "Enhanced Pat Down" even though using this procedure violates stated policy.
I would hardly call this practice voluntary!
If I am in a lane without a STRIP SEARCH MACHINE and pass the WTMD without alarm I likely will not receive a pat down.
However, if I am in a lane with a WBI STRIP SEARCH MACHINE and I refuse to be STRIP SEARCHED I will be subjected to the most invasive pat down that TSA uses regardless of any alarms.
That violates policy as I read it.
I have a problem with this and would think that Bob or some other TSA official would respond and clarify this issue.
"This pat down will include the breast area of women and the groin area of both men and women."
If you watch the enhanced pat down video, you will clearly see the screener's hand going up the inside of the pant leg of the victim and into the crotch area.
"In human anatomy, the groin areas are the two creases at the junction of the torso with the legs, on either side of the pubic area."
"Crotch: Specifically, the region of the human body between the legs where they join the torso, overlapping the groin. It is the area containing the genitals. As such, it is considered one of the intimate parts."
Both of the above from Wiki.
What about that do you not understand, Ronnie?
Anonymous writes:
Checking ID is just another hurdle that terrorist have to get passed to carry out their evil deeds. One of my points im trying to get through to you is that the TDC checks for fraudulent ID's. Are you telling me fake ID's dont exist?
Oh, c'mon now. Of course, fake ID's exist.
My point is: you don't need a fake ID to commit a terrorist act. The 9/11 hijackers all presented authentic IDs when they checked in for their flights. So did Richard Reid.
The ID Checks prove nothing. Anyone can change the name on a print at home boarding pass, without any software besides their web browser. Nothing at all was done about any of the vulnerabilities identified in Christopher Soghoian's paper
Insecure Flight: Broken Boarding Passes and Ineffective Terrorist Watch Lists
that was presented at
First IFIP WG 11.6 working conference on Policies & Research in Identity Management (IDMAN 07), October 2007.
Also see this article:
http://www.slate.com/id/2152507/
TSM/West said in part... I think you answered your first question with your last question.
If you remember the Phil incident where an airport employee brought a weapon through the secure area into the sterile area for a friend, the additional screening at the checkpoints is another way to fill the gap of not conducting 100% screening of airport employees.
As far as your last question. the cargo screening is on schedule. The screening of all airport employees isn't completely up to TSA."
...........................
West, the way I read the legislation that created and enabled TSA clearly assigns TSA with the responsibility of securing all methods of public transport including airports. Saying TSA is not responsible for all areas of an airport is a cop out. TSA can create any rule they like. Your agency doesn't seem to have any problem piling on ridiculous requirements for travelers but cowers at the doing the same for people who work at airports.
This double standard is unacceptable if security is the real objective.
The chances of picking something up using gate screening is long odds and ineffective security. And the Phil incident was reported by a traveler not discovered by TSA until after the report. That incident clearly demonstrates a security failure by current TSA procedure.
The date for 100% cargo screening keeps getting moved back. So if you can't comply just change the date and say your on schedule.
Until TSA requires 100% screening of all people and materials entering the secure area TSA has failed its core mission.
RB said in part
West, the way I read the legislation that created and enabled TSA clearly assigns TSA with the responsibility of securing all methods of public transport including airports. Saying TSA is not responsible for all areas of an airport is a cop out. TSA can create any rule they like. Your agency doesn't seem to have any problem piling on ridiculous requirements for travelers but cowers at the doing the same for people who work at airports.
This double standard is unacceptable if security is the real objective.
-----------------------------------
So what you're saying is that you don't approve of TSA policies that require people to go through security screening because it violate their Constitutional Rights but it's ok for the Government to infringe on the rights of people that own a private business. You're double standards are unacceptable. But as I said in my original post it really doesn't matter what I say because it will never be enough for you. You asked a question and didn't like the answer. Can't please everyone. The point is the question was answered. Move on and do something productive instead of just trying to find any reason to bad mouth TSA.
A lot of people here don't like TSA but they are trying by giving positive suggestions. You just discard any response as a conspiracy and don't add anything helpful.
Just because the answer isn't what you want to hear doesn't mean it's not an answer.
RB also said
Until TSA requires 100% screening of all people and materials entering the secure area TSA has failed its core mission.
-----------------------------------
TSA hasn't failed nothing. Your law makers are failing you. I agree 100% that everyone and everything should be screened, however my hands are tied by what our law makers say we can do and can not do. And a lot of that has to do with (imo) special interest groups like AARP, NAACP and any other lawer hoping to make a buck out of other peoples misery. So if you have a problem with who doesn't have to be screened talk to your elected representatives.
TSM/West said...
RB said in part
West, the way I read the legislation that created and enabled TSA clearly assigns TSA with the responsibility of securing all methods of public transport including airports. Saying TSA is not responsible for all areas of an airport is a cop out. TSA can create any rule they like. Your agency doesn't seem to have any problem piling on ridiculous requirements for travelers but cowers at the doing the same for people who work at airports.
This double standard is unacceptable if security is the real objective.
-----------------------------------
So what you're saying is that you don't approve of TSA policies that require people to go through security screening because it violate their Constitutional Rights but it's ok for the Government to infringe on the rights of people that own a private business. You're double standards are unacceptable. But as I said in my original post it really doesn't matter what I say because it will never be enough for you. You asked a question and didn't like the answer. Can't please everyone. The point is the question was answered. Move on and do something productive instead of just trying to find any reason to bad mouth TSA.
A lot of people here don't like TSA but they are trying by giving positive suggestions. You just discard any response as a conspiracy and don't add anything helpful.
Just because the answer isn't what you want to hear doesn't mean it's not an answer.
October 17, 2009 10:27 AM
..................
West, don't put words in my mouth that I did not say.
I did not say I disapprove of screening.
What I said is that without screening everyone and everything it serves little purpose to only screen a select group.
And I will say it again since you seem to miss the point. TSA has all the authority required to require screening of everyone.
There is no reason to blame the lawmakers, they gave your agency the authority to secure all modes of public travel. Your leadership has failed to implement security provisions on those who work at airports.
The fact that they won't do that is what makes the TSA a failed agency.
TSA seems intent on operating their child porn machines even as the public is clearly telling the TSA legislators that this has gone to far.
TSA is not embracing the needs of the public but that of some power hungry government flunkies.
I don't plan on moving on until TSA makes some changes and institutes fair and reasonable screening for all people and all things entering the secure area of airports. That will mean the same screening I get is used on you and every other person who enters the secure areas of airports each and every time they enter.
No exceptions!!
If you don't like that then why don't you move on, eh?
TSM/West said...
TSA hasn't failed nothing. Your law makers are failing you. I agree 100% that everyone and everything should be screened, however my hands are tied by what our law makers say we can do and can not do. And a lot of that has to do with (imo) special interest groups like AARP, NAACP and any other lawer hoping to make a buck out of other peoples misery. So if you have a problem with who doesn't have to be screened talk to your elected representatives.
May I direct you to Title 49 §1540.107 Submission to screening and inspection.
(a) No individual may enter a sterile area or board an aircraft without submitting to the screening and inspection of his or her person and accessible property in accordance with the procedures being applied to control access to that area or aircraft under this subchapter.
You may also enjoy reading the entry on my blog on this very subject.
Trollkiller said
a) No individual may enter a sterile area or board an aircraft without submitting to the screening and inspection of his or her person and accessible property in accordance with the procedures being applied to control access to that area or aircraft under this subchapter.
-----------------------------------
And you don't think the law has exceptions. I can think of a few that's public knowledge
Police officers flying armed
FFDO's
State Governors
Just to mention a few. These are exceptions that your law makers agreed on. Every policy TSA enforces come from above the administrations head. The legal dept reviews everything in our SOP prior to the effective date for the field.
I don't necessarily agree with some of the policies, but as I stated to RB earlier that is why we have additional and unpredictable screening.
Title 49 §1540.107, Submission to Screening and Inspection states, "No individual may enter a sterile area or board an aircraft without submitting to the screening and inspection of his or her person and accessible property in accordance with the procedures being applied to control access to that area or aircraft under this subchapter." The underlined portion doesn't mean 100% of people are to receive physical screening. It means that whatever the folks who make the rules (i.e. lawmakers) say is a proper procedure goes.
Almost every TSO in the nation can see the hole in security but all we can do is the job we are allowed to do. The special interests groups like the airline unions and elected officials and the airports don’t want TSA to screen everyone. It is just too much of a hassle for their employees. You sound foolish when you continue to yell at TSOs about doing their job when you are actually angry at the lawmakers for not doing their job. If you direct your anger and rightful complaint at the proper party you will discover that TSOs across the nation will stand with you.
RB Said …
Looks like your maintaining your art of being wrong most of the time.
Again I refer you to your own agency.
--------------------------
RB, please show me in there where it says that we are going to touch a passengers genitalia. Take your time, I have all day.
Dont ya hate it when your wrong?
TSORon writes:
RB, please show me in there where it says that we are going to touch a passengers genitalia. Take your time, I have all day.
I'm not RB, but I found the link for you:
This procedure will include patting down sensitive areas of the body that are often used by professional testers and terrorists alike to hide potentially dangerous items. These areas include the breast and groin areas of females and the groin area of males.
TSORon said...
RB Said …
Looks like your maintaining your art of being wrong most of the time.
Again I refer you to your own agency.
--------------------------
RB, please show me in there where it says that we are going to touch a passengers genitalia. Take your time, I have all day.
Dont ya hate it when your wrong?
October 23, 2009 4:23 PM
......................
Well wRONgy I don't know where you keep your genitals but watching the TSA videos and reading the description of the "Enhanced Patdown" should clue you in on where the rest of the human population keeps their genitals.
Oh, and with you it doesn't take all day, you just refuse to read and learn from the information provided.
And once again I refer you to your own agency.
........................
The enhanced pat-down will be used only after all other screening methods have been used and the alarm remains unresolved. This pat down will include the breast area of women and the groin area of both men and women. Passengers required to undergo this level of screening will be afforded the opportunity to divest all items that could be the source of the alarm before the protocol is used and private screening will be made available. The officers who conduct the searches will receive special training to perform them appropriately and with regard for the privacy concerns of passengers.
.....................
Also pay attention to the three demonstrations on the TSA webpage, perhaps you can learn where genitalia are located on the human body.
http://www.tsa.gov/press/happenings/enhanced_patdown.shtm
wRONgy, if you can't understand this simple information then perhaps you need to give BB a call and ask him to explain the more intimate details of the human body.
Dont ya hate it when your wrong?
October 23, 2009 4:23 PM
.......................
Looks like your the one who doesn't know or understand your agencies policies.
And they even gave you pictures.
Don't think I would be calling others out wRONgy, makes you look like a fool.
To TSM/West and TSO Jacob, both you guys seem to have forgotten the definitions.
§ 1540.5 Terms used in this subchapter.
Sterile area means a portion of an airport defined in the airport security program that provides passengers access to boarding aircraft and to which the access generally is controlled by TSA, or by an aircraft operator under part 1544 of this chapter or a foreign air carrier under part 1546 of this chapter, through the screening of persons and property.
The above allows you to permit emergency personnel and others on a limited case basis without screening. The exceptions you guys listed are codified.
I do have one question, if a cop is being allowed to board with a weapon, do you not screen them for explosives and incendiaries? (non-bullets)
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