Michigan has officially become the 24th "right to work" state, outlawing forced union membership in both the public and private sectors. NBC's Ron Mott reports.
Updated at 7:30 p.m. ET: Michigan Gov. Rick Snyder signed into law two bills Tuesday sharply limiting labor rights, which the House passed over the objections of thousands of people packing the Capitol in protest, some of whom chanted "Shame on you!" from the gallery.
"This isn't about us versus them. This is about Michiganders," Snyder said at news conference in the state capital, Lansing, where he announced that he had signed the legislation.
By a 58-51 vote, the Republican-led House passed a bill that would ban workplace rules that make union membership a condition of employment for government workers. It then approved a second bill, covering private-sector workers, by a vote of 58-52.
When the new rules take effect, probably in late March, Michigan — one of the most union-friendly states in the country —will become the 24th "right to work" state, making payment of union dues voluntary even though the union negotiates on a worker's behalf.
Snyder told NBC News' Andrea Mitchell that he was "pro-collective bargaining," but he said right-to-work laws denied workers freedom of choice.
"I think it's a good thing," he said of the legislation. "I think it's pro-worker."
Michigan labor fight puts 'tough nerd' Snyder under partisan spotlight
Michigan has long been considered the heart of organized labor. But now it may draw new manufacturing plants that had been drawn to "right to work" states in the South. CNBC's Phil LeBeau reports.
As the vote was taking place, as many as 10,000 people descended on the Capitol, State Police estimated, prompting authorities to restrict access to the building because it was at its capacity of 2,000. The overflow filled the lawn and stretched down East Michigan Avenue to the Lansing Center across the river several blocks away.
About 200 onlookers filled the gallery overlooking the House floor Tuesday. As debate resumed on one of the bills, the session was interrupted with protesters yelling, "Shame on you," NBC News' Nadine Comerford reported.
After the votes, protesters then moved to the building housing Snyder's office, chanting, "Governor Snyder, just say no!"
Live developments on breakingnews.com
Law enforcement officials said they wouldn't let Michigan become another Wisconsin, where demonstrators occupied the state Capitol around the clock for nearly three weeks last year to protest similar legislation.
Armed with tear gas canisters, pepper spray and batons, State Police officers guarded the Capitol as protesters shouted "No justice, no peace!" and "Shut it down!" NBC station WILX of Lansing reported.
State Police officials confirmed that one of their troopers used pepper spray on one protester. Police spokesmen said the man was sprayed when he grabbed a trooper and tried to pull her into the crowd.
The man wasn't arrested, but two other people were arrested after they tried to force their way into another building on the grounds where Snyder has offices, police said.
A tent set up by supporters of the measures also collapsed amid what authorities described as "pushing and shoving" among protesters. No one was hurt, police said.
Elsewhere on the lawn, four large inflatable rats were set up to mock Snyder, House Speaker Jase Bolger, Senate Republican leader Randy Richardville, and Dick DeVos, a prominent conservative businessman who union leaders say is behind the bills.
Obama decries right-to-work proposal during trip to Michigan
Schools in at least three districts were closed because so many teachers and other staff were at the rally.
NBC's Ron Mott reports on the latest from the labor protests in Lansing, Mich., and then, Msnbc's Tamron Hall talks with Rep. Sander Levin, D-Mich.
Valerie Constance, a developmental reading instructor for the Wayne County Community College District and a member of the American Federation of Teachers, sat on the Capitol steps with a sign shaped like a tombstone. It read: "Here lies democracy."
Scott Hagerstrom, director of the Michigan affiliate of the activist group Americans for Prosperity, said the new laws would be "a win-win for Michigan's economy, for individual freedom."
"What a lot of these protesters may not realize is that after this bill passes, they can still belong to a union. It'll just be their choice. They just can't force their co-workers to give their hard-earned money to a private organization," he said.
But Rep. Sander Levin of Michigan, the ranking Democrat on the Ways and Means Committee, called it "a terrible result."
"Workers want a voice and ... they want to be sure when conditions are set that they're part of the process," he said in an interview on msnbc.
Valerie Constance, a developmental reading instructor for the Wayne County Community College District and a member of the American Federation of Teachers, sat on the Capitol steps with a sign shaped like a tombstone. It read: "Here lies democracy."
But Mark Mix, president of the National Right to Work Committee, hailed the votes, saying the made for "a great day for Michigan's workers and taxpayers,"
"I would like to congratulate Michigan's workers for their newly protected freedom to work without union affiliation as a condition of their employment," Mix said.
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To bad so sad. Tough titty said the kitty when the milk went dry haha
When I moved to a right to work state years ago, I recall the personnel officer telling me that this is a right to work state. Having never heard the term, I thought it was something positive. Until I found out that what it really means is that you don't have a right to work, that your employer has a right to pay you less money than the average and the right to fire you for any or no reason at any time and that you don't have a right to protest about it. I'm still trying to figure out why it's called right-to-work when it should be right-to-screw employees and circumvent labor laws, pay standards, and workplace safety. In other words, right to treat you like an illegal alien.
This is a FREE country!!!! How is forcing anyone to do anything freedom????
if you were worth a sh!t as a worker you wouldn't be worried. OSHA has standards for workplace safety and UCLA protects civil rights. Unions do nothing except take your money and provide nothing back.
The time has come for these corrupt, pernicious, communist run unions are defeated. Now, if the unions are truly looking out for the workers, the workers have a choice, pay dues to thugs and criminals or not.
We have more than enough state and federal laws protecting workers.
Your ignorance is showing. People who work need to be protected from the corporate greed. History tells us that.
So, the fund raising arm of the demonratic party can no longer reach into the pockets of those who do not wish to contribute. Good for Michigan, the rest of the nation should follow their shining example.
UNIONS, we are the rats in democrats.
You also have the right to not work there if you don't think the pay is fair KeenInsight. Believe it or not no one forces you to take a job and the employeer tells you upfront what the pay is. You either accept, which means you have no room to complain, or you say no and if no one accepts the job they'll have no choice but to raise the pay. Amazing how afraid of personal responsibility most people are.
I live in MI and my only issue with the bills is they excluded cops and fire fighters.
Unions are dinosaurs and a detriment to the States economic growth and financial stability.
Just look at the California teacher's union(s) and what their ludicrous retirement benefits have done to Cali's financial stability.
Yep....here comes the "rebuttals".
Hey, the Unions want their 'pound of flesh' since they were the biggest supporter for Obama's re-election. Keep the workers in bondage but give the unions the power - Obama promised!
The republicans have often put a pretty title on some pretty ugly laws. They are designed to make the objectionable appear positive or vice versa. If they like them, they make sure the title of the rule or law sounds wonderful. Many republicans would like to pass their fortunes down to junior tax-free. Junior would like that too. He would be in control of a lot of money and power and never have to work a day in his/her life- think the old European aristocracy model. The Death Tax sounds bad but it is a "new" name for inheritance taxes. There was also the clean-air act under Bush that pretty much gutted clean air regulations. Same old trickery.....
Good for Michigan!!
Unions do nothing more than promote complacency in the work place and built only on more money for Seniority on the job, Job performance rating is non existent.
Unions are archaic and need to go away! Then we will have a fully productive work force to bring manufacturing back to America.
KeenInsight,
Bologna. I'm a manager in a right work state. A non-exempt employee can't be fired at will. You wouldn't believe the documentation you need to have to let someone go. If you don't have documentation supporting the firing you can face a DOL law suit that you will lose.
Republicans are taking away workers choices here, by not allowing the law to be overturned by referendum.
This is all purely political, and fascism at its best.
OMG there was workplace rules that made union membership a condition of employment for GOVERNMENT workers?? that is the most backwards insane destructive anti-American thing i have ever heard. Special club you must join and pay fees to in order to work for the government? What is that union there for? Who is that Union protecting the government workers from? The public??? .. Does anyone else see a major problem with such a work place rule? Government is the PUBLIC SECTOR unions have no business controlling the public sector at all. Unions even police and fire Unions should be banned in all levels of government everywhere in this nation. The existence of them in fact is what limits the peoples control over them. It is a gross violation for them to exist. Good for you Michigan now get rid of those police unions and give the control back to the citizens of the state!
Fascism.... anything that doesn't promote communism apparently...
phucking libtard asswipe
Now if all the other states would follow, the world would be a better place WITHOUT unions!!
The party is OVER!!
The argumeent that folks won't have to pay dues even though the union represents them --- well, who asked the union to represent them? All I see watching the news coverage of this is union thuggery....intimidation, threats of violence, etc. Bravo to the legislature.
Mackinac Center analysis indicates a right-to-work bill would do the following:
http://www.mackinac.org/16278
I'm usually against almost everything that the republicans support, but this is one time when I am glad to see them step in and do something that benefits the middle class. Unions were absolutely necessary 70 years ago or so....they helped provide support for employees that had no voice. Now, there are so many laws in place to protect workers that a union supporting employees seems quite unnecessary and potentially costly to both the employees and the companies. Unions traditionally seem to protect bad employees...at least for the last 30 years of my working career. It is time for them to go, and if not go, then at least be optional for an employee to join or not. I fail to see the problem with the word optional in this case.
Why is this arguement always held by the stupid?
Ding Dongs who think Unions are evil
Ding Dongs who think Corporations are evil
I vote for throwing out all managers and workers from a failing company by law. The owner can stay, alone. He has to wait 3 months before hiring anyone else. Just to think about how come he decided to blame something other than himself. Note I said owner, and not CEO, unless they are the same person.
Also by law, if you get fired in this way, you get no benefits at all. Golden Parachutes, pensions, nothing.
Let's see how many managers and union workers work things out then, huh? I say, give the doctor cancer and see how long it takes them to find a cure.
Eric-913730
You mean like Obamacare was rammed down our throats even though over 60% of Americans opposed it? that it took dirty closed door bribes to get the votes for it... that even then the Senate had to do a slimy trick to pass it.... ha ha ha ha.... you're right.. that WAS facism at its best....
Hmmm.. let me quote the Blamer in Chief... get in the back of the bus union thugs!!!
JanJoyce, your ignorance perhaps...
Unions protected the workers industrial age to what OSHA and many regulation agencies do now. This is the problem I have with an established union at a work site:
- After 30 days you need to join and pay the dues
- Your money at the union automatically goes towards democratic elections regardless of your political affiliation
- You are bullied to believe in what the union preaches. We've all seen this before in high school, they are called clicks...and yes they are bullies
- They use words like corporate greed and rich fat cats to justify your thousands of dollars a year membership, then blame those fat cats when you cant pay for gas, food, etc. They the company goes under (Hostess) because the world is not a union run system and can not compete on a global scale
Only thing that Unions have done:
-increased the pay of every worker today. non-union workers have benefited from union lobbying. unfortunately from the above point, we can no longer compete in this global economy so its starting to nullify the point.
- if you force the 'fat cats' to stop receiving big pay checks, they will leave to profitable companies that do pay and, said point above, the company will fail regardless and you back to square one
As opposed to busting my ass to give it to you, who also never worked a day in their life? No thank you!
Eric-913730,
You obviously have no idea what fascism is do you? If you want to see an example, check out Obamacare. Forcing you to support a private company is fascism.
This is a great victory for workers and a setback for the thieving libs to force people to join their union then take money from them to give to other libs to get nice kick backs. Public unions are unconstitutional at best, and down right damaging to our very foundation at worst. Thank God these leaders are standing up to these working thugs. You will probably see a lot less demoncrats being elected in those areas now that they cant steal worker's money while doing nothing for them. People opposing this bill are just pathetic thieves and nothing more.
Libs are for choice, unless they dont like the choice, they you are racist, sexist, or in bed with the 1%. And they call conservatives fear mongers. ahahahahahaha, pathetic.
Was going to comment...but it seems all the smart folks out there have already lambasted the unions.
So...my 2 cents? Unions have outlived their usefulness. Their job is done. they only cause employers to pay out more money to hire an individual and EVERYONE knows you can't fire a useless union person.
I see unions as a good thing if they are managed well. I do not think it should be a requirement for employment. I choose to belong to my union because I want fairness in my workplace. The right to work law in the state of Iowa has not had a negative effect for my union or hampered it's ability to do it's job.
To the idiots spewing that unions are the fundraising arm of the Democratic party. You do know that you can request and receive the names of every union member who donated to the political wing of the union right? If you don't know you should, unless of course that doesn't fit your mantra of hatred.
Now, I would like you to try to get the names of corporations and individuals who donated to Republican PACs. Good luck with that one. Cons are just so predictable and pathetic. Keep rolling in the hatred. We'll move forward without you. Right now you're in the way.
I wonder how long it will take the Supreme Court to strike this bogus legislation down. You clowns are becoming famous for your inability to pass laws that pass constitutional muster.
Well, well, libbies, while you were gloating with loud mouths over Obama's win at the federal level, you failed to see how many states elected GOP governors and legislators. Too bad, because a hell of a lot can be done by states to counteract the awful, damaging policies and practices of the would-be Emperor in the white house.
Many republicans would like to pass their fortunes down to junior tax-free. Junior would like that too. He would be in control of a lot of money and power and never have to work a day in his/her life-
Yeah, because all the rich democrats are very happy not to pass it down to junior. What a dip@!$%# statement you just made and keep your hands out of my wallet and my kids' wallet...get a job.
For Dennis, read this link.
http://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/list.php?order=A
Tell me again about the where the Union money comes from that's used to support the Democratic party? (chirping crickets.....)
P.S. Good for Michigan, about time they did something good for their own state! Now if only Ohio would do the same......
These right to work laws should not only allow people to decide whether or not to join a union, they should also protect a worker from getting fired without cause. It's just not right to fire an employee without reason, or without discussing a problem with an employee and allowing him/her to correct a problem, and not have to fire him.
These union thugs must be stopped. You should not have to join a union if you do not want to.
Imagine this: Michigan is like a ship that is sinking with a repairable hole in it (union demands) and unions don't want to do anything about it. Just let it sink. Look at the city of Detroit. The unions have destroyed the city because most of the industries there left for other states or countries.
If unions are so bad for so many people, they could vote to de-certify, abolishing the union in the process by a simple majority vote. This, however is not the case. Unions still exist in many industries, and they exist for a reason, to place checks on corporate abuses toward workers and to provide a strong bargaining position to their members. This is not to say all unions are good, as some exist who do not fulfill this obligation.
Historically, when union membership was at its peak of roughly 30% of the workforce in the 1950s-1960s, the nation was doing very well economically. People of my father's generation were able to be raised on one income (usually from the father), and businesses that didn't have unions compensated their employees better in an effort to eliminate any appeal that unions would have to their employees. All this "Right to work" Bull@!$%# does is turn the clock back to 1912, minus the polio.
It boggles my mind that people would have such trust in a company's ability to self regulate and treat their employees fairly, but not have trust in democracy in the workplace. The fact that corporate executive compensation has increased exponentially since 1978, while hourly worker wages have stagnated, and even regressed is proof that companies, when left unchecked and unregulated are a menace to the middle class, and to better wages for workers.
The fact the people can now freeload on the backs of unions and reap the benefits unions protect and fight for without putting their share of skin into the game (so to speak) is appalling. Snyder lost my support with this act, and I'll be voting against him in 2014.
There is a silver lining. Once the people of Michigan discover the havoc on wages and benefits caused by this bill, the Republican reign of terror will end for decades. I fully expect the same on a national level after the battles of the fiscal cliff and raising the coming debt limit have been concluded.
The Republicans have forgotten their last 20 year banishment from the White house (1933 to 1953) while Congressional majority was withheld until 1996. These are different times with the very same Republican worn out tactics. Adios and good riddance.
Scruffy
Yea right... vote to de-certify. Technically you are right but the union/workers bully any type dissidence and shut it down immediately. You heard the woman at the rally "i dont want to work next to someone who hasnt paid their dues!"
if you dont join them you will be austricized....
Michigan had a mandatory union referendum on the ballot November 6th and it was defeated.
Commensense101: No one has voted for you. YOU LOSE!
We see what the Republican plan for America is now. 2014 will be the end of the Republican Party in Michigan and many other places in the country. No more "I vote for the candidate who I think is the best guy",its straight party line from now on. When you vote for any Republican you have to accept their whole anti-worker,anti-middle class,anti-women's rights,leadership. Their people are tied to them or they wouldn't be Republicans in the first place. Remember that people. Don't vote for ANY Republican,even for dog-catcher.
Starting next year the Democrats and the middle working class need to oppose any legislation supported by the Republicans in Michigan,no more bi-partisan cooperation. Cooperation with the Snyder gang,just helps him. He's a "dead man walking" as Governor. So show him from the start he's done in Michigan politics. Target any Republican that voted for that bill and the anti-women's bills they are pushing. We need to show the Republicans in 2014 what happens to a party that attacks the workers and women in our country. Especially in Blue States we should clean out the whole vile crowd.
The coming elections in 2014,are more important even than 2012 was. The robber barons lost their attempt to buy the Presidency and now their trying to buy the Statehouses instead. We have to shut them down. If it takes outspending them,strikes,mass demonstrations,or all the above. We can't let them destroy the future of the middle working class and women's rights in America so they can get even richer and further their evil ideology.
@Keeninsight-if you get fired it's because someone is not happy with your work. Why should your job be protected when you are not doing it properly. The problem with the union is that you can go to a job and not do your job andnot get fired while others have to work their butts off. The post office has this problem of incompetent workers that do nothing but sit around all night while others do their work for them and the union protects them from getting fired. Why should you be protected when you are not doing the job you are being paid to do? Good for Michigan-what gives anyone the right to decide for another if you should be union or not. Pay your dues if you want to be, but don't force it on those who don't want it-this is America, it's not Unionerica. Of course, Obama is going to stir the crap about it because he made big promises. He wanted the union to take over-they own him, but it won't happen in America. Actually statistics have shown that nonunion people are paid better wages. We the people have had enough.
You never negotiate with a republican period. Democrats need to remember exactly how the republicans treat them and the independents when they have majority powers. There is nothing these people can do that cannot be undone even if they do majority vote in their own versions of constitutional laws and call them non-repeal-able. It all begins with the 2014 vote. 2012 sealed the 3-4 supreme justices that will be replaced during the next four years for the democratic party and unseated a majority of the remaining republicans that ran election campaigns. 2014 will take out the rest of the tea party members so much of what they pull in their respective states are merely a learning tool for the 2014 elections.
Apparently, the protesters we see in the news must be a very tiny minority of the citizens of Michigan.
Otherwise, this makes no sense: the citizens of Michigan voted into office all these corporately owned republicans, so now they're surprised that they're behaving like corporately owned republicans?
does this mean that those 15 Chrysler employees caught drinking and smoking on the clock can get fired for good now? rather than the company being forced to keep them because they are union?
You should do your OWN research about donations. Hollywood elite, and unions make up democrats base (you should also check out the corps and hedgefund mgrs that not only donated but threw hefty fundraising dinners for YOUR Mr. O). Democrats are owned by a wide array of entities and people. So get off the left wing BS and do something constructive for the country -- like contributing to society. Givers VS takers. What are you people going to do when there are a lot fewer givers and a lot more takers (which is what the dems are doing, growing their base by making people dependent on government programs so they'll vote like the lap dogs you are).
"You obviously have no idea what fascism is do you? If you want to see an example, check out Obamacare. Forcing you to support a private company is fascism."
Umm, well... No, actually. I know you specialize in being brainless, but you really oughta consider knowing what you're talking about before you start talking. Because it's kind of hilarious watching someone attack someone else for not knowing what fascism is and then proceeding to provide an example of something that is decidedly not fascist.
I also strongly suspect that you don't know what "communist" or "socialist" actually mean either, but rather you use those terms to refer to anything that doesn't fit your radical, horribly distorted Right-wing worldview.
Freedom wins for what seems like the first time in years. Finally, employers in Michigan can decide who they want to hire or fire without being forced to hire and keep whomever they're told they must and for how much money, even when that person is completely unqualified, disruptive, or even downright hostile to staff or clientele. Naturally Unions don't like this because it also means their members can leave the union and find work for themselves without having to be dependant on fat cat union bosses and sleazy recruiters who tell them when and how they must vote if they want to keep working in their state. No longer will the Michigan worker be required to pay increasing fees to keep their shoddy health benefits and licenses which they pay for out of their own money to begin with.
Yes sir, this has been a good day for Michigan and for America. People may still have difficulty finding work, but they can rest assured that the work they do get is dependant upon them and them alone, their own performance being rewarded or punished appropriately without their wages being garnished and gouged. Likewise, businesses can hire people for appropriate wages without being forced to shell out twice as much as they put in simply for non-worker profit (Union bosses, primarily). Anytime a Union worker makes $15 an hour, the company is paying out $45 an hour for that worker in total - that may not seem like much but when you consider that worker could be getting paid $20 and the business pays $25 (government employment taxes still apply, but we'll deal with that when we can), it's a situation where everyone ultimately wins.
God. Maybe now Detroit will get some economy back and those hundreds of thousands of homeless starving people can get community aid to get them back on their feet and in charge of their own lives again at long last.
rightwing said:
Unions not only stand for workplace safety and civil rights, but they also represent workers in bargaining for a decent working wage and benefits. Pray tell us rightwing, what law is out there that protects workers rights to fair wages and benefits? What this law will do is weaken the union pool so that they will have less power to stand up for worker rights - the goal of Republican lawmakers. They want complete control of the Middle Class. Everyone has a right to fair wages and benefits. The Republicans are whittling away at the rights of every Middle Class worker in this country with the laws they pass. If we continue down this road, most people won't be able to get anything but slave wages with no benefits, no thanks to the Republicans.
Since when is freedom a bad thing? Have you ever wondered what made the people in the middle east hate Americans so bad? It is because they have been taught that way of thinking from a young age. We non-union workers wonder the same thing about many of these die hard union people. How could they possibly think the unions are as important as they believe them to be?How could they be so commit ed to the unions? How can they see freedom to choose as such a threat? The only answer is like the misguided people that hate America these people have been convinced they can not survive on their own without the unions help. It is sad that some people are that unable to look out for themselves.
The Union Mobsters are howling like wounded hyenas.... to hell with the unions.... nothing but money grabbing mafia style organization who promote piss poor production and use strong arm tactics to intimidate workers and employers. I have belonged to two unions in my working life and neither has done anything i can point to with pride...just the opposite...
Katherine M. Comment collapsed by the community
Well there is one of the stupider things I've read in some weeks. Surely you can't honestly believe that the inheritance tax only affect the Paris Hilton types? Give me a break, when you've got that much money a pesky little inheritance tax is an easy thing to avoid. The people who end up paying the inheritance tax are the people who don't have money for armies of lawyers. Some of these people are small business owners whose children end up being forced to close the business and sell of the assets because it is the only way for them to raise enough money to pay the tax.
And aside from that, the idea that people should not be allowed to keep what they earn is friggin stupid. Why on Earth are liberals so hell bent on removing any possible incentive for people to become successful? There are states now where you can live better on 29k per year than you can on 55k when you lose access to benefits and pay higher tax rates. Why bother working hard to advance when your hard work will only earn you a step back?
Finally Michigan You made the Right Choice.... There is still Hope for Your State. I thought it was going down, but now there is New Light at the end of the Tunnel. Congratulations
What a joke.
In the last Presidential Election Republicans won more seats in the State level 25 states in fully control , how ever they lost the Presidential race, that is the problem , you don't see the whole spectrum. Republicans will be alive for many years to come as well Democrats. However the right to work bill has the support also of Independents and Democrats voters.
Uncle Bob 512 your post is too funny.
I live in a right to work state. We have no issues, and our voting seems to be uneffected by coworker/management bullying...that is what freedom means.
i am repub, but I voted from some dems, reps, and indy. My job did not cast my vote for me, I did it for myself and none of my wages or dues went to electing a man i do not agree with...that too is what freedom is.
You clearly state that your party is all you care about. Its party first, family and friends, and citizens of this nation are last. Something tells me you disowned a family member based on their party or that you would if given the chance. that too bad.
Dottie,
Libs dont do research, they come to MSN to get their slanted info. They still think Unions are relevant in this day because unions are made up of democrats that are too lazy to compete for a position with the threat of actually having to work hard to keep it.
wall-mart worker...government food stamp eater...free ride this and that...hell yea give the hard earned money to the rich...so they can pay the hordaseians...anti-union is good so we can work in factories 12 hr.days to compete with china...thank you BILL CLINTON for NAFTA...
those unions are just freaking out about not having the money they did this year to elect a UNITED States President. They are mad the money is going home with the people and not to their candidate. This is all about the Unions money that they wont have in the future to buy an election. This state, just freed part of America from hostage politics. Good day, I said good day.
No more bought elections through unions. whooo hoooo yipppie skippie. I see nonpartisan on its way....maybe just maybe, our next President, d or r, will be honest, and fair. Instead of sleeping with union every spit second of his or her term.. SWEETNESS!!! I don't care what party takes the presidential seat, as long as its not bought with citizens wages who dont want him..now its a choice!! did I say SWEET!! SWEET
I have to wonder how many of those out there protesting voted Republican.
This is nothing more than the systematic destruction of the working class by the GOP in order to kiss the collective a$$e$ of their contributors.
Can anyone say: Andrew Carnegie? How would that have worked out for the employees in the mills without the protection of the union?
Here is what you will get when the protection offered by unions is eliminated:
This is the GOP proving who it is that they represent. Big money, big business ... and to hell with the working class!
Did you all see this headline:
Surprise: New insurance fee in health overhaul law
http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/business/2012/12/11/new-health-insurance-fee/1760479/
UncleSlob, I'm so sick of your liberal diatribe. It is the democrats that are being exposed, first on January 1st when the first of the Obamacare taxes are implemented, and again in 2014. Democrats say that they are collecting money to protect the poor, and then they spend the money on one of their pork projects. We've seen the Fannie and Freddie debacle (give loans to people even if they can't afford it), the attempt to keep people as slaves by keeping them on welfare, instead of creating jobs for them, and the building of the financial base for contributions, the unions. The unions had their place in the early 1900s, but now, they are nothing, but money grabbers for the democrat party. They cripple business by making it impossible to get rid of the slackers. And smart women are on to your lie about their rights being in jeopardy. It's the unborn child's rights that are being taken away by democrats by allowing murder. Women can use contraceptives to control pregnancies (but I shouldn't have to fund it, that's not their right).
Once again the republican party has defended the rich on the backs of "we the people". One small step for the republican party, one giant leap for the hidden rich.
And to the republicans: when your children are paid even less then they are now, I hope you live an extremely long long life so you can watch it all. Enjoy their pain.
Michigan in January 2013 will lose a bunch of Republican seat they lost in election to democrats. They rammed this legislature in and it is not a good thing.
Lower wages and less benefits, but hey red states already take more federal money then they produce..
Hey Dennis. Speak to your "Democratic Machine" before you say more about
passing constitutional muster. Or will looking in the mirror scare you to death?
SMlFry2 said: something stupid and not worth repeating but I will humor your idiotic response with a counter response.
"Unions not only stand for workplace safety and civil rights, but they also represent workers in bargaining for a decent working wage and benefits. Pray tell us rightwing, what law is out there that protects workers rights to fair wages and benefits? "
Why would you need a law unless you were worried about poor performance? Since you are not a slave, you are not obliged to stay working for a company who offers unfair compensation. If you don't like it, go work for the competition or step up your performance. You are entitled to nothing and your Boss is paying you for a service and DOES expect something back.
"What this law will do is weaken the union pool so that they will have less power to stand up for worker rights - the goal of Republican lawmakers. They want complete control of the Middle Class. Everyone has a right to fair wages and benefits."
Wow conspiracy theory much? Based on the mindless liberal dribble on these vines, I would have concluded that conspiracy theories were strictly reserved for GOP radicals. Right to fair wages and benefits, I couldn't agree more! You have the right to show up to work on time, abide by company policies and do a good job - and now if you don't, you have the right to be fired! You had the right to go to school and take the risk of student loans and putting yourself on the line too and if you failed because of stupid decisions, that's your fault. I went to school, do my job, have a good relationship with my boss and I get all the things you mentioned too, WITHOUT A UNION!
"The Republicans are whittling away at the rights of every Middle Class worker in this country with the laws they pass."
Like the right to earn what you deserve and keep what you earn? Like the right to take risks and the right to deal with the consequences of failure or success? Like the right to spend highschool smoking pot, early 20's F***G anything that moves and demanding equality in your mid 30's because you finally figured out you're a loser? OR maybe you mean the right to force thousands of businesses to lay off workers when a communisty piece of sh!t implements thousands of dollars in fees or taxes, making businesses unable to stay competitive and keep producing profits.
"If we continue down this road, most people won't be able to get anything but slave wages with no benefits, no thanks to the Republicans."
You couldn't be more correct. IF we keep implementingn socialist policies and don't adress our spending and entitlement problems and get serious with illegal immigration we will most CERTAINLY HAVE SLAVE WAGE ISSUES. Why do you think so many people who were once in construction are now unemployed!? CAn you say... Juan, Julio and Jose?
And most importantly, "NO THANKS TO THE REPUBLICANS", your damn right NO THANKS TO THEM, they didn't do anything to cause this and they were villified for trying to stop it. Thanks for proving my point you liberal jacka$$.
Looks like there's some teachers that need to be reprimanded or fired for playing hookie! It's nice that they care so much about their students that they can't be bothered to show up and teach. You know, provide them with a quality education rather than going out to join a mob to fight for their right to use extortion to get what they want.
If any one of these paid shills of the anti union actually had a brain you would stop posting the anti union crap. Let me tell my story about how fair big business treats its employees. I work for a company recently for 4 years 11 months and 3 weeks. I was the go to guy when anyone had a question about things at the store. Yet 3 weeks before I turned 50 I got 3 write ups for judgmental things like not sweeping the floor properly. I had never gotten a write up in almost 5 years yet I got 3 in 2 weeks. I was fired just 1 week before I was eligible for almost $1500 in sick leave and vacation pay. I later found out that the real reason I was fired was since I had been diagnosed with arthritis and would be turning 50 the companies insurance would be going up so they fired me. Since I was only 49 at the time I was fired age discrimination laws didn't apply to me and MO is a hire at will state so I was without any legal recourse. That is what happens when you aren't a member of a union.
Also for all the IDIOTS that think that 60% of the people in this country don't want Obama care I suggest you turn off Limpbomb and actually do some fact checking. The number commonly used in the election was 54% didn't want Obama care. Want to no how the lying Republicans came up with that number? They combined the minority that didn't want it with the people that thought it was good start but preferred a single payer system. Those people comprised 23% of the population. So in actuality 69% of this country is in favor of Obama care, a super majority. Dont let the FACTS get in your way of spreading lies. It never has stopped you Republicans before. A minority of only 31% don't want some sort of national health care. I find it a funny that that is almost the same amount that think Limpbom tells the truth.
Hey tired old man: can any of you liberal Dimocrats ever spew a sentence out without resorting to saying the mindless "paid shills" and Rush insults? No? Didn't think so. And just so you know, the majority of Americans ARE against the way Obamacare was rammed down their throats. But they'll REALLY get to feel it when they start losing hours and jobs after it kicks in because smaller companies can't afford it. That's what you people get!
Anyway, anyone know what's missing in this story? Where is the reference to the union thugs that assaulted two pro-right to work people, one of them being a WOMAN before they attacked their tent and tore it down? Nary a peep from the liberal media, huh? No surprise, that's the same people who lie that the Tea Party is full of violent racists.
But let's call it like it is here: unions are 80-year old mentality of a time that was long ago past before we had laws to protect worker's rights. Now, unions think they can control companies and mandate what companies do as if THEY are the elected board members and leadership. Well, as we can see with Eastern Airlines, Hostess, and many companies in between, unions and their "paid shills" are only good for two things: violence and destroying companies. And then they wonder why jobs continue to shift overseas or to right to work states where every single foreign auto company has built manufacturing plants since the early 1990s.
Go pound sand, union goons.
I'd be upset about this if unions didn't only and automatically hire the sons, grandsons, and nephews of other union members rather than the most qualified candidate for the job. The rest of us would also like a job where we can only work a portion of the shift we're getting paid for, get the day off with full pay whenever it rains, call in sick then get 1.5X pay for "picking up" the following shift, not use all of the 15 or so sick days we get per year in order to cash them in and retire a full year+ early while still receiving our latest salary and full health care for the rest of our lives (and work a lot of overtime the final year to make that everlasting paycheck much higher), get paid way more and have better benefits than non-union people in the same exact business/building that have far more difficult jobs, actually have a pension, receive full scheduled raises regardless of any performance standard whatsoever, not get fired for practically any reason, etc... Yep, EXTREMELY jealous of my union friends in various fields and wish I would have had an uncle or daddy that could have hooked me up like that.
Union members in Michigan were caught on camera punching reporters, taking down tents and even assaulting people in a counter protest.
Real mature!!
Fed up with fred
Sure the top 4 states are best for business but if you look at the other end the scale, 10 of the 6 states in the bottom 50 states are right to works states that blows your Ideal
Congratulations to Michigan for passing your Right To Work (For Less)Law in record time ,six hours, without debate and public scrutiny. That's republican democracy in action, Whether you're pro or anti union, this sucks and bodes poorly for the country.
All of the truthful comments have been collapsed. We now know that this forum consist of many union and Obama supporters.
Right to Work legislation is progress on individual civil rights and liberty.
With Right to Work legislation, workers still have the right to freely associate with whom they will and decide to join together in a Union, and collectively bargain... and they should.
But they do not have the right to force compulsory unionism or confiscate money to support the union for those workers who do not consent.
One fundamental basis of contract law is getting both sides together to consent and agree prior to transactions.
What the Unions essentially argue is that they can come in, provide you a service you neither ask for nor want, and then use the government as a bludgeon to force you to pay for that service regardless of your consent.
No one should wield that kind of authoritarian power over free citizens.
A Union that faces members who have the right to opt out if the Union is not adequately representing them must provide better services to their members to stay attractive and keep those members. It forces Union bosses to not be able to free ride on their members dues without giving them commensurate value in return. This is good for workers, if not the Democratic politicians that use forced unionism to confiscate money from people who might not otherwise support them channeled through the union and into their campaign coffers.
Just don't let the pro-union propagandists fool you. Right to Work law is about liberty, pure and simple. You ought to have the right to join and union and collectively bargain as a matter of free association. But as an equal part of that right to free association, you ought to have the right to tell them no, you don't want to join them too, and not be forced to support them financially as a precondition of work.
That's a basic fundamental human right, look it up, article 20 in the UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights:
http://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/index.shtml#atop
Hard to argue with that.
So this is a historic day for civil liberty and workers rights. Congrats to the citizens of MI, your government no longer will force you to join unions against your will and consent as a precondition of work.
It's a good day.
40 empty chairs 40 empty yrs of Rep rule
9 of the top ten states in terms of economic growth are "right to work" states, NONE of the bottem 10 are. In addition the average unemployment rate in RtW States is 6.9% and in other states it's 8.7%. You have to do some pretty hard twisting and spinning to "blow the ideal".
YES MICHIGAN!!!!! Way to go, there is hope for your state!! Union thugs are up to their usual tricks, too bad, so sad union a$$ wipes. Unionistas, go F yourselves.
That's not what I saw on TV. I saw a union thug start swinging at a supporter of the legislation like he was in a backwater tough guy competition. I find it frightening at how violent the Left has become. I believe a lot of it has to do with the juvenile mentality. Can't win a verbal argument? Resort to physical violence.
LOL! This is hilarious. How does a moron like this, who teaches reading no less, keep her job? Oh yea, she's in a union. She believes in her heart of hearts that the union mob is democracy and the Michigan legislative process is not. How pathetic.
Individual freedom scares the unions to death. They don't like the idea of a worker choosing to take a pay cut in a poor economy to ensure the family is fed and the job will continue into the future. I wonder what the employees from Hostess are doing these days? Probably on food stamps and welfare; I guarantee you that they aren't getting any money from the union that cost them a living. My experience with unions has shown me that the rules don't apply evenly, the incompetent are protected, and corruption is the rule (not the exception). In a union I was forced to work long overtime for crap wages while certain people did nothing and couldn't be fired. Time for them to become extinct.
"sharply limit labor rights"....How? By allowing choice rather than forced membership? How is that "sharply" limiting anything? It's expanding rights.
They're not taking away the right to collectively bargain.
These people are nuts. You'd think they would welcome a chance to get the oppressive unions off their backs.
JoeyJoeJoJunior Unions aren't interested in expanding workers rights!
BS - all the unions want is their almighty $$$$$$$$$$ - even if there is a strike the union bosses get their $$$ !!! Down with the Unions!!!!! Right to work states are the ONLY way to go - it works both for the workers and the bosses!!!!!
Even though studies have shown our economy was strongest when unions were strong? I doubt the above posters have much common sense but think about it. Where is extra money best served, in the hands of the few super wealthy who couldn't spend all their money in their life or in the hands of the many who will buy new electronics, cars, shoes, school supplies? It's a no brainer. The consolidation of wealth in this country is just removing the consumer therefore decreasing purchasing. The rightards hate everything so much they don't even realize they hate this country and what makes it strong, resilent and robust. China is bringing more people into their economy, not removing people. BTW, I have never been a union member and have no union members in my family. The Republicans rally the stupid once again. If anyone thinks Rebublicans want to improve education, think again! The last thing the representatives of the super rich want is the populace better educated. Wake up America.
Aren't democrats supposed to be pro-choice?
0123456789,
You made good grades in school, didn't you? These people above are those people who were shooting spitballs at each other. Your "sense-making" will only anger them.
For example, they think in terms of "if you don't want to work there you don't have to", even though my dog could look at a history book and determine that the end result of this garbage demonstrated in actual reality, is a few super wealthy people and a bunch of desperate, poor people.
Ummm NO, Kathryn, 'right to work' ONLY works to the advantage of the EMPLOYER, the EMPLOYEE has NO recourse/protection from being fired for NO reason. Btw, since you're 'Down with Unions,' I'm sure you won't mind losing your 40 hr work week, health or other benefits, fair wages or children working, by way of going backwards to the 1800's subserviant way of life, especially you being a woman.
0123456789
Unions have declined along with the middle class when Unions over stepped their bounds and drove the jobs overseas. No need to be in a Union if there are no jobs.
Companies shipped jobs overseas so that they could pay $3 a day in wages.
Companies won't stop until US workers are paid $3 a day.
In this economy, you can't go out and just get another job. So Republicans say suck it up, despite polling indicating that American's are against these kinds of laws.
Over 60% of those employed want to change jobs. I hope a lot of these companies get to "eat dirt" when the economy turns around.
I can almost guarantee those that are screaming "bad unions" and RTW is the way to go, weren't around when unions fought to make the 40 hour work week the standard. Before that...you worked as many hours as the boss SAID you worked. And at the wages they gave you.
I am not saying all unions are perfect- far from it- but they are the ones that actually gave us the middle class that the US was built on. It is eroding (the middle class) and it is NO coincidence that it is also because unions are being gutted like this state is doing.
Trust me folks...when times get tough and the employers think they need to save a few bucks, they will take it from your wages before anything else. And you will have been ok with that by being for this RTW law. Remember that.
How many of you work in a right to work state? Here in Florida we call it the right to get fired state. Our unemployment system is a joke! We have one of the lowest approval rates for unemployment compensation as well as paying one of the lowest rates. All thanks to "right to work" bs. The worker has no rights...nada. Wages are low, benefits are nonresistant and no safety net to speak of in unemployment benefits. If this is what youre advocating for, you really need to take a closer look at the worker atmosphere in those right to work states.
It will be fun to watch the union numbers drop like a rock in Michigan once the workers get control of their money back. In Wisconsin public union membership dropped by more than 50% when the State had to stop automatically taking union dues out of state worker's paychecks and the employees had to sign up to have it taken out. Hilarious!
if you wanted to change state laws by campaigning, why did you become President of the United States????????????? Why don't you just go be a senator again....isn't that what your doing anyway???
It's a shame that employees in Michigan might now have to compete for jobs, salaries, raises & benefits on the basis of their merits rather than their seniority or on the negotiating skills of their union bosses.
How can anyone who takes pride in their work, who values their own skills and experience, be upset about free market competition? If I'm twice as productive as the guy next to me doing essentially the same job, you better believe I expect better compensation than him. If my employer is a cheapskate and doesn't reward those employees that are the ones generating most of the profits, I'm more than happy to go work for his competition if I can get a better deal there.
It's a free country, or at least it's supposed to be.
Government is not some corporation. Unions in government are collective bargaining for tax payers money yet they do not get elected by the tax payers. Unconstitutional
Fatomdog,
Wrong. I'm a manager in a right to work state. It takes a hell of a lot of documentation to fire someone. If it's not documented the former employee can sue and usually win.
I taught Chemistry and Physics for 8 years at the High School level. I finally resigned because of the union that I was FORCED to join preferred teacher's rights more than the rights of students, and fighting against them was a lost cause. I would still be teaching if this State was a Right-to-Work state, but it is not. As it is, I own a computer software business and am doing well, but had to give up my love of Education. I applaud the State of Michigan.....but denounce those teachers who called in to their schools to support the selfish agenda of their Union and of themselves. Your students who had no school to go to today are supposed to be more important than your self-centered greed....but clearly they are not.
Without Unions, people will actually have to work to a higher standard because they would have to stand on their own MERITS, rather than rely on the BULLYING from their God Father Unions!
Who's fooling whom here? If you limit worker's abilities to belong to a union, your employer has the advantage. How much more advantage do workers in the US plan to allow employers to take?
If labor isn't important to the Republicans in this country, get the hell out of the USA. We don't need Corporate suck ups to stack the cards against the Middle Class workers. Isn't bringing in millions of illegals under the Bush Administration enough? Now what? employers hiring more illegals and getting away with it?
When party has more control and ignores the voice of the people in the thousands, party needs to get the hell out of their SS command posts. Right now, the Head of the SS Norquistian Regime is doing the testicular polka.
Union dues are nothing more than EXTORTION..... can't imagine why people would object.... just check out the states with the BEST economies today..... conservative & NON-union...... guess that's why Barry is so pro-union..... more votes for whatever the union bosses decide in the next election.....
Get a clue people.... make you OWN decisions, go into business for YOURSELF, build for YOUR FUTURE....
I work for a union hotel as a server in fine dining, and it's a mixed bag, but mostly good. Bad because some lazy employees have been there for years, and some have never know any other job and feel they don't have to perform. Good because we have rights, some paid vacation time, and a decent hourly wage plus tips.
In a non-union job, I would be making $2.77 an hour. This in Washington, DC ! At 2,77 an hour, let me tell you, you'd better make the tips you need to afford to live here, one of the most expensive cities in the nation. The minimum wage in most states is way too low, and politicians don't seem to care about that. How is a junk food worker making 7 dollars an hour supposed to survive ? Mc donalds and all these corporations have the means, but not the will, to pay a living wage. But for many people, that's the only job they can find..
I think unions overall should be more flexible in working with management to make sure they don't do things that are detrimental to the business.
"Who's fooling whom here? If you limit worker's abilities to belong to a union, your employer has the advantage. How much more advantage do workers in the US plan to allow employers to take?"
Who is limiting the workers from forming a union? All this bill says is YOU CAN'T FORCE SOMEONE INTO A UNION.
Wisconsin Public Sector Union Membership drops like a hot rock once they no longer have dues automatically taken out of their paychecks....That's what the Union Bosses fear the most....No More GravyTrain for them....
"Wisconsin membership in the American Federation of State, County and Municipal Employees-the state's second-largest public-sector union after the National Education Association, which represents teachers-fell to 28,745 in February from 62,818 in March 2011, according to a person who has viewed Afscme's figures. A spokesman for Afscme declined to comment.
Much of that decline came from Afscme Council 24, which represents Wisconsin state workers, whose membership plunged by two-thirds to 7,100 from 22,300 last year."
http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2012/05/dramatic_drop_in_union_membership_among_wi_public_employees.html
They may have shown up at the protests like Good Unionista's but afterwards decided they liked keeping their money....
Actually studies have shown that Unions actually slow an economic recovery during a recession, which we currently are in. Quality is not improved by unions rather the opposite in fact. The unions had their purpose, but they have outlived their usefulness. There are laws that do the same thing that unions did at their peak. Now the child labor laws, I wish they would bring down to about 11 or 12. Heck I was doing construction since I was 11 and I was born in the late 80's. My generation has been crippled by some of these laws. We simply don't know how to work. How is that beneficial to society?
Detroit teachers...they are union are some of the worst in the country...7% of 8th grade grads are at or below skill level. Now that is really sad performance by anyone's measure it is pathetic.
Take look at Paccar, Peterbilt trucks in Denton, Tx. They are not union if fact they ran the union reps out trying to get them to vote union and they make union wage or above with great benefits, Tn plant was union they struck for 2 years...2 years...the plant closed for good moved production to Denton, those unions folks are out of work thanks to the union leadership's greed so greed goes on both sides.
I consider myself a moderate when it comes to fiscal policy and I think this is good for Michigan. The Unions in the past have served purpose, but with the government getting so big they regulate everything now so the union is unneccesary. I will say the pressure is now on the employers to invest in Michigan's economy and to bring jobs back otherwise it becomes a government who doesn't care about the people battling businesses that don't care about their people and the middle class loses either way.
That's great news! Now when I bring my company to a trade show in your state, I don't have to pay $500.00 for you to run 8 screws into my display and hang 2 lights.
Studies show that right to work legislation leads to 6-8% lower wages.
http://www.epi.org/publication/datazone_rtw_index/
One of the best teachers i had was in HS. He refused to join the union when it came to town. He was ostracized, his tires got slashed, etc, etc. He was never accepted as an equal in the teachers lounge.
He was one of the best teacher i ever had through a BS in Engineering. He had a choice back then and teachers should have a choice now. That is just one example of the good that will come from this bill. People in Michigan will have a CHOICE to join the union or not. They won't get strong armed into it unless they let themselves.
Way to go Michigan! One more step to recovery.
JJones...no one can be that stupid. An employer no longer has to hire someone who would belong to a union, DUH...DUH... get it yet? So if they don't have to pay union dues, it follows, they can't belong to a union...No union dues. No union membership. No union. How stupid does it need to get before someone figures out that little dirty end of the connection?
If these MI protestors are smart, they'll stop paying a dime in tax subsidies to these corporate thieves. If corporations can't run a business without taxpayer funds, they don't belong in business. And, they do have the option of cutting their millions in salary to actually pay the expenses of their businesses one of which is payroll...Or are employers now of the belief that employees deserve no paychecks? That'll be next on the GOP BS hit list.
Job well done..
Yes he is correct, It was called an election where the greater (not just the Union lackeys) community voted for the right to not join a union.
Steve, why don't you take a look at annual income averages, as well as % of food stamp recipients, and then just for the fun of it, check out the number without health insurance in the right to work states. Go ahead, we'll wait...
123456
so you say if we lower min. wage to chinas pay levels we would bring in more jobs? the union was so good a person turning screws thought they should be paid the same as a doctor. that is an overstatement but an example of how the unions think. if a company treats its employees right and pay them what a job is worth they can grow. if a person that takes advantage of a company knows they can't be fired they will cost the company money. if the company treats its employees bad they will not last long. and why would anyone compare the U.S.A. to china
123456
so you say if we lower min. wage to chinas pay levels we would bring in more jobs? the union was so good a person turning screws thought they should be paid the same as a doctor. that is an overstatement but an example of how the unions think. if a company treats its employees right and pay them what a job is worth they can grow. if a person that takes advantage of a company knows they can't be fired they will cost the company money. if the company treats its employees bad they will not last long. and why would anyone compare the U.S.A. to china
ewent said, "If labor isn't important to the Republicans in this country, get the hell out of the USA."
While you are telling those who disagree with you to leave the country, you might want to take your own advice and take yourself and your unions to Greece.
People in the workplace who are competent, trustworthy, and who don't drink or smoke MJ on their lunch breaks (e.g., Chrysler workers who's Union just got them back on the job after being fired for this) have no fear of being mistreated or taken advantage at the work place. Employers value good workers and want to keep them at all costs! The only people who, to use your words, ewent, "suck up" to Unions are those who would otherwise be out of a job because of their incompetence, poor attitudes, and inferior workmanship.
I know a paramedic that makes 10.25 and hour and has to belong to a union and is forced to pay the dues. yet the union does nothing to help them. He works a 72 hour shift with a 12 hour brake, has to Post in remote location in temperatures that range from 115 to 30 And is expected to preform at the highest level. The uniforms are without reflective strips making night work even more dangerous. The Union know all this and does nothing but take their money. I say F%%K unions that do this.
01234....
If our "populace" had been better educated we would have a different president come January. Which party survives on the votes of the poorly educated ??? Have you checked the demographics on November's election ???
Okie...It would be better if we lowered our CEOs salaries to the levels of China's CEOs...whoooeeee...I can hear the CEOs caterwalling, sobbing, whining and crying already.
Touch anything in a corporation but the sacred CEO salary. It's the only thing in this country you can guarantee always goes up. See anything wrong with that?
Eric-
That 6-8% you call lower wages is what the union dues add up to. So.......same take home pay.
Unions protected the workers industrial age to what OSHA and many regulation agencies do now. This is the problem I have with an established union at a work site:
- After 30 days you need to join and pay the dues
- Your money at the union automatically goes towards democratic elections regardless of your political affiliation
- You are bullied to believe in what the union preaches. We've all seen this before in high school, they are called clicks...and yes they are bullies
- They use words like corporate greed and rich fat cats to justify your thousands of dollars a year membership, then blame those fat cats when you cant pay for gas, food, etc. They the company goes under (Hostess) because the world is not a union run system and can not compete on a global scale
Only thing that Unions have done:
-increased the pay of every worker today. non-union workers have benefited from union lobbying. unfortunately from the above point, we can no longer compete in this global economy so its starting to nullify the point.
- if you force the 'fat cats' to stop receiving big pay checks, they will leave to profitable companies that do pay and, said point above, the company will fail regardless and you back to square one
Not for nothing but my state is dead broke....$450 million in the hole right now with $1 billion + deficits projected for the next two years after this one. Our state has the most poorly funded government employee pension program in the nation and yet twice per year, government hands out 'longevity payments' that have nothing do with anything except years on the job. $27 million was recently handed out and it happens twice per year. Newspaper reports state that some municipal school system's employees have taken a pay freeze for a year...but automatic "step increases" in pay of 1.5 to 2.5% are not considered "pay increases" so they're rarely mentioned in the articles.
And I'm supposed to be sobbing for the crybabies in front of the Michigan capital ???
There is no need for unions in this day and age. If you feel you are being mistreated at your job you can find a new job of or to court. This is what the union does anyway and there is no need for a middle man.
I'm still confused on why states like MI, WI, and OH are overwhelmingly against the unions (a good thing) yet still voted in our idiot-in-chief to a second term. I guess Romney was a weak candidate.
0123456789...
There was a whole lot more going on during the unions heyday that can't even be compared to in todays economy.
Regardless, blame the U.S. dept of labor for leveling the playing field for all workers. Unions are no longer relevent in the way you want them to be so stop living in the past.
Private sector unions have to compete with non-union shops. Yes exceptions still exist like for the training and expertise given in the masonry, pipefitters and possibly millwrights. The other trades are regulated to specific standards set by the government. As for public unions, their time will soon end amid a taxpayer revolt if they don't change to meet the new economy moving forward.
BTW - notice how the articles editors purposely gave such an inflaming headline to to having government provide for a balanced approach to every workers rights?
ewent,
I see you are back making absolutely no sense yet again.
Why should someone be forced to join an organization that gives money to ideals and organizations that they are against in order to work? This makes no sense. Unions do nothing for workers except protect the dumb and lazy, which probably explains why you are rallying for them.
Randoo
Have to agree with one point you brought up... there was a time when unions were absolutely essential to the health and financial well-being of workers. But that was long ago... now we have laws that codify safety and protect workers from arbitrary firing (despite what the hystericals are squealing). And the unions have just become an arm of the socialist party along with the media. And the marketplace determines what jobs are worth... no, there aren't too many $40/hr "tighten five bolts" jobs anymore.... but there are plenty of jobs that pay well with skills... machinists, carpenters, electricians, plumbers, painters, shipfitters, welders, heavy equipment operators, and the list goes on. One lesson is clear... the market is changing and we're competing globally... once upon a time there were companies that made buggy whips... and when the auto came along, they had to adapt. Today is no different.
JJ, looks like the right wing propoganda machine (e.g. the Fox misinformation network) has gotten you again - and others with similar comments to yours. Even a fool knows that if you can get union benefits without having to pay for them, unions will take in less revenue and have less political clout. Of course, this is exactly what Republicans and the Kock brothers really want (the so called "right to work" slogan is necessary for the brainwashing to work...just like "citizens united"). This is just a part of how the Republicans think they can cling to power despite having failed ideas that only benefit the plurocrats. This strategy, evil and anti-American as it may be, is actually pretty simple:
1. Choke funding and organizing of democratic operatives (e.g. "right to vote")
2. Increase funding and organizing of republican operatives (e.g. "citizens united")
3. Win state control, stack the courts with partisan judges who will push the right wing agenda (e.g Florida, Ohio, Texas, Arizona, Kentucky, etc..)
4. Suppress votes of democratic voting blocks (e.g. see above)
Problem is, 53% (and growing) of Americans have already caught on to the right wing sham...and are inpenetrable to Fox News brainwashing. Of course, that will not stop the right wingnuts from continuing to play to the angry, white, science-hating, gun-loving religious fundamentalist base. You know, the people from the real welfare states; the ones that take more than they give but accuse others of socialism; the ones that have "right to work" legislation but have the lowest pay, benefits and worker safety; the ones that value the unborn more than the born; the ones that don't believe in science, consumer protection, financial regulations etc..
Fortunately, the sham is over. You just don't know it yet.
Terrific news!
Americans have the Right to Work!!
Tony....are you saying that the states of LA, MS, AL, AR, TN, SC (the southern 'redneck' states) that voted for Romney contain more educated people per capita than those in the Northeast (famous for their education system) that voted for Obama? I'm afraid you need to re-check your demographics.
"We must close union offices, confiscate their money, and put their leaders in prison.
We must reduce workers salaries and take away their right to strike.”
Adolf Hitler, May 2, 1933
Mr. Burns...I see you are back with that autocratic Know it All Attitude? Don't you hotchas of the right ever give it up? CEOs join organizations...like The infamous Chamber of Commerce that is so on the attack against employees it reeks of BS. I see you are also unable to grasp the idea that this is a government and a democracy...not the Norquistian Do As I Say regime?
What sense does it make to pay a CEO who points and delegates all day long more than the employee busting butt doing heavy lifting? All so Mr. CEO can afford his $7,000 shower curtain? Please...spare me the autocratic Know it All BS...not impressed. I know when employees are getting screwed by employers...I've seen enough of it to write a book...and in fact, that might be my next non-fiction. The reality is the men in this country who achieve CEO status think their bowel movements are made of 14K gold...they are employers...that's all...they have not yet achieved rank and file supremacy. And come spring, there's already a huge push to stop the Middle Class from pay a dime more in taxes to the very thieves helping themselves to our tax dollars in corporations...So...do tell..how will CEO salaries go when there's no tax subsidies to rely on to pay the corporate bills? Hmmmmmmmm?
An interesting abstract on effects of unions. I added the emphasis. Also, there was a comment above about union people making more 6-8% more in salary. This is correct. However in right to work states the overall cost of living tends to be lower so in reality everyone has more purchasing power for their $$.
Appeared in Barry T. Hirsch, "Unionization and Economic Performance: Evidence on Productivity, Profits, Investment, and Growth," in Fazil Mihlar, ed. Unions and Right-to-Work Laws, Vancouver, B.C.: The Fraser Institute, 1997, pp. 35-70.
Abstract
The effect of labor unions on economic performance is a crucial factor in evaluating public policy toward union organizing and bargaining rights. This paper evaluates theory and evidence on the relationship of unionization with respect to productivity, profitability, investment, and employment growth. The clear pattern that emerges from the research literature, primarily for the U.S. but also elsewhere, is that unions do not on average increase productivity and that collective bargaining is associated with lower profitability, decreased investment in physical capital and research and development (R&D), and lower rates of employment and sales growth. As long as unionized companies operate in a competitive environment, poor economic performance implies a continuing decline in membership, absent changes in labor law favorable toward union organizing. Yet deleterious union effects on performance tend to undermine rather than buttress the case for labor law reforms that increase union strength. Policies that enhance competition in product and factor markets promote economic growth and limit the costs associated with unionism, yet do little to facilitate the exercise of collective voice and employee participation in the workplace.
Make up your own minds on whether or not unions are good for all.
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH! Oh, man! That was a good one, especially the "at all costs" part!
Steve,
No, those southern states have less major cities crammed full of entitlement grabbers.
so ya'll don't mind paying for someone else's expenses. that's what this is doing. people who choose not to pay for their union protection, don't have to, but they still get that protection and the paying members have to pay. it's like you paying health insurance at higher premiums because people out there who can afford to pay insurance choose not to since they know they will get the same coverage as you!
you know, you will be the first ones to complain when the unions are gone. you say we have labor laws to protect us now. yeah right. have you ever tried filing a complaint with them? good luck. and more important, those labor laws are subject to state and federal legislatures and just like collective bargaining can be taken away so can your rights as a worker. the only reason you get at least 8 hrs between your shifts is because unions fought for that and the law was enacted. that law can be rescinded just as easily as it was passed. right now in states like pennsylvania they are trying to lower the working age to 14. in california they did away with the 8hr work day so that your boss could force you to work without overtime. the democratic governor that came into office after that reinstated that law.
without a voice, your employer has all the power and you will be at his mercy. look at the people who work at walmart. you think they have it made? the average income is $12 an hour. i guess you could live on that...if you live in your car or a homeless shelter and you have no kids and you're not sick with anything. after taxes that's about 370$ a week. that's $1478 a month. so, what kind of ghetto are you willing to live in? i know, you work, your wife works...well, that's $2956 a month. that sounds like a lot of money and maybe it is in louisiana or kansas and you choose to live like a pauper. but wait! your boss will be able to fire you for any reason and one day you could come to work and find out you don't have a job. or maybe better, without any restrictions your boss can come in and tell you that from now on you get $5 an hour. why should he pay you $12 when he can hire someone else for $5? then you'll have to work, your wife will have to work and i guess your kids will have to work. but, that's ok, because there won't be any school anyway. the republicans backed by big business is fighting like crazy to turn public education into a for profit institution. i mean, public education, giving all kids equal chance to make something of themselves is "SOCIALISM!!!!" aaaahhhhhhh!!!!!!
so, this is the future you want. americans working 16 to 20 hrs a day for $5 an hour (maybe). they work, their wives work, their children work. they live in tenement housing is crime ridden ghettos with no police protection because there aren't enough people who are willing to risk their lives every day for $5 an hour. and if your house catches fire, you better hope your friends can put it out, because there won't be enough firemen out there willing to work and risk their lives for $5 an hour. and if you get sick, i hope you can cure it yourself because you won't be able to afford the for profit hospitals and the 'free' clinics will be run by people who couldn't get licenses anywhere else.
what a wonderful world you have planned. now, unions don't prevent all this, but oh wait! they did. this was life before unions were formed in this country. this was life before workers started standing up for their rights. and the only thing that prevents it from happening again, is the threat of strike and the demand of the multitude of workers. but, you want to live like indentured servants to the corporate overlords.
luckily, this isn't gonna happen. there are too many of us who WILL NOT BEND OVER TO THE LIKES OF THE KOCH BROTHERS! there are enough of us that will stand up and refuse to give in. let's see how all those corporate overlords do when they don't have anyone working for them. are they gonna do the work themselves? that would be cute. when the grocery store workers went on strike here in california a few years ago, the stores lost millions of dollars a day. this time around, when the contract came up they compromised with us. otherwise, we would have had to take cuts in pay(bty-i don't make hundreds of dollars an hour-i don't even make $20 an hour-i don't even work full time-no one does unless you have 25 years senority) meanwhile, the company made 584 million $ in NET profit last year. while they're telling us that we are so difficult, they're rolling in dough, enough that they were able to donate 68$million to charity. that's laudable. if they gave their employees another $68 million in raises, they'd still have $448 million in NET profit. NET-that's after taxes, after expenses, after medical and wages. that's the cream on top of the milk.
ewent " If corporations can't run a business without taxpayer funds, they don't belong in business "
Just like GM & Chrysler huh ?
JV-733028: While you are busy condemning those who disagree with you as hate-filled people, read your own posts JV-733028. They are filled with hatred, bigotry, and the racism you accuse others of having. If you really want to condemn these things, start with yourself.
Do you honestly believe it is just to have a person who belongs to any other political way of thinking forced to pay hefty dues to the Democratic Party via his/her Union dues????????
And finally, instead of saying that "right-wingers" value the unborn more than they do the born, you may want to re-phrase that into stating the fact that those people value life more than they value the murder of the helpless that is done, in most cases, as a form of birth control.
Correction: In one of my previous posts, I wrote, "who's", rather than "whose", which was the correct word I was looking for.
ewent,
My oh my, how in the world have any of us survived not being ruled by a union? Ya know I have never been a member of a union, and I feel like I have made a pretty darn good living for myself. I have worked hard, took pride in what I do, and because of that I have excelled and advanced in my profession. You make it sound like no one will ever get a fair shake if they are not a part of a union. Well, guess what, thousands of hard working Americans do not agree with you.
GOP is going down in flames once again, and once again they are oblivious to their own stupidity.
ewent,
And they say age makes you wise. I see you have gone the vinegar route in old age. My grandfather got Alzheimers when he got old so I can see you are deep in those stages.
For one, I am definitely not on the right. Im more liberal on social issues than almost any person I know. I simply got a degree in economics and that has taught me just how dumb liberal fiscal policies are. They make absolutely no sense and rely on moronic people such as yourself believing that the rich are all evil since you never made anything of yourself. Im also not even close to rich btw. Im simply not blind with jealousy and my own inadequacies.
Yes CEO's join organizations. And workers can too. Im all for workers joining unions if they want to. Im for this thing called choice. You only claim to be when it comes to abortion. When it comes to what people eat, use as a light source, or whether or not they join a thug organization (union) you libs are as anti-choice as possible.
Now onto your other jokes, or ah points. One, it is a republic, not a democracy. Two, the representatives decided to give the workers the choice of joining a union or not. Anti-choice people like you want to force them to join an org. that they dont want to join. Three, I know you guys hate Norquist since you want to get your hands on all those evil rich people's money to pay for more stuff as you leech off everyone, but as this debt crisis is showing, we dont have a revenue problem, we have a spending problem. And we dont subsidize companies like you libs keep clamoring. Obama has definitely, but they all pay taxes. Many people in our country do not. They provide jobs, you do not. They help the economy, you slow it down.
Please make a more coherent point next time. It may be hard to see with the tin foil blocking your eyes.
Marksman....Actually, the entire states of MS and LA are nothing but entitlement grabbers....they are the poorest, most uneducated of all the states in the union. But...their religion and culture won't allow them to vote into office either a black man or a Democrat.
ewent: "What sense does it make to pay a CEO who points and delegates all day long more than the employee busting butt doing heavy lifting? All so Mr. CEO can afford his $7,000 shower curtain?"
Rather than complain, why don't you start your own company, and be its CEO? Make it a union shop and compete in the open market for customers. What's stopping you?
ewent is simply a union drone, worker bee. Performing the tasks the hive has assigned. Buzzz buzz buzz buzzzzzzz!
You do not own your success, this Obama ideology extend to unions, workers do not own their sucess Unions own their success , like the Government has the right to take money from your succes if you are a business owner , unions has the right to take money from your paycheck.
Union worker= slave to union
non union worker= free worker
VIVA!!!!!!!! Michigan
Mr Burns....I'd like to point out that you are wrong about a couple of things. While I do agree with you about the unions (they really are outdated and have been for decades), corporations really do tend to be on the greedy, evil side. Most (not all) really don't care about the environment or workers rights. That's why they tend to have a gaggle of lawyers on their staff. They are interested in making profits for themselves and for the stockholders...everything else is secondary. Many do not pay any taxes at all....as a matter of fact, most of the large corporations get refunds from the govt. The tax loopholes and subsidies make sure of that. And, the reason I hate Norquist is because of his stance of 'no higher taxes'. That's like a fireman using a bucket of water to fight a fire and saying 'no matter how bad this fire gets, we are going to continue to just use this bucket to fight it'. That is non-sensical. We are in desperate times, which require more revenues and less spending....but BOTH. The defense department should be the first on the hit list. They generate more spending than the next 17 countries combined on their militaries. If the two parties would just open their eyes to these facts, then we would be much better off.
I've worked in a right to work state for years. Best thing a state could be.. The disparity in incomes are lower in our state because of this law. I've always made a great income here and employers treat worker fairer because of it.
If you want to join the union, you can. Nothing prevents you from paying your dues and we have several unions here, however it is your choice, unlike the laws in Michigan were before the laws changed there, which forced workers to join the union whether the union did anything for them or not. Its now a choice for the people of Michigan. Democracy at it best!
This is just another Republican scheme to destroy the USA! They just enacted a "right to work" law that destroys making unions! (No, it doesn't stop the ability to form unions). They are trying to break unions! (No, the law doesn't stop unions from existing). The workers don't have a say anymore! (Yes they do- they have federal, state, and local laws protecting their rights and statutes protecting a safe working environment). They are breaking up collective bargining, the workers will suffer! (No, the legislation doesn't change collective bargining). OK smarty, what does the change do?!?! (It stops unions from forcing you to pay dues/join if you don't want to). So I don't have to belong to a union to work at the factory? (No you don't. They can't force you to pay for something you don't necessarily want. They can't use your earnings to promote their own political agenda- thus protecting you from giving your money to things you wouldn't support on your own.) That's Un-American!
My original post gets collapsed? Really? So not only do they want to spin this law as an attack against rights but they'll also collapse comments that state otherwise? The truth hurts.
It doesn't allow choice. It's the exact opposite. It limits the rights of two private entities,s a company and a union to come to a mutual agreement. As an individual you are not forced to join a union. You only must join if you insist on working for a company that requires it. It's like saying you are forced to give your boss a weekly report. You can always find a different job if you don't want to meet the job requirements.
No one is saying lower wages in the U.S. If you want a level playing field on goods sold, tax the imported products so the price point for the U.S. produced product is lower then the import price or at least the same. Then it is just an issue of quality for the consumer. Price is no longer part of the equation. Jobs and industry will come back to the U.S.. Who in Washington actually has the guts to mandate that kind of initiative? (I don't know anyone in Washington that has the guts). Washington panders to India and China especially when India & China line the back pockets of both Democrats and Republicans in Washington with money and continue to buy our bad debt. Now, you say, "My congressman and senator would never do that". Who are you kidding! It should be considered treasonable to take a payoff from competing countries. India and China aren't looking out for America's best interest. India and China are the problem, as they create the avenues for this massive transfer of wealth. This is what really should be discussed. Lack of jobs and a weak economy are what's driving the union vs. "right to work" issue in the first place.
We in the U.S. still have the power to reverse the flow of wealth. We still control a GDP of over 25% of the total world GDP. We need to act like we have that kind of power for once. Tell your President and Congressmen to get some backbone in negotiating with the world markets instead of slowly giving everything away that we have worked for, for many generations.
You want change. That's change. Stay focused on the real prize instead of bickering about things that will not help you or your descendants in the long run.
stevef00,
Dont say Im wrong then come at me with stupid talking points.
1. Corporations would be considered sociopaths. I know not a big difference, but they dont purposefully do evil things.
2. And you are wrong about them not paying taxes. They most certainly do. If you ever took a finance class, they all pay taxes, and if you get money through dividends, they are being double taxed. Evil oil companies pay millions in taxes. This whole, they dont pay taxes they get subsidized is a made up fantasy of jealous people.
3. Again, we dont have a revenue problem, we have a spending problem. We dont need more taxes, we need to stop spending so much damn money on useless stuff that the left keeps adding on. And the defense budget is less than 20% of the budget. Cut it out completely and tax the wealthiest 400 people in our country 100% of their money and we would still be spending too much money. The math is there in front of you, why dont you people ever look it up?
While I am not a union supporter it should be mentioned that some unions get it today in regards to the work environment. The current winner in the highest production and lowest defect rate is a company that makes auto engines and transmissions for Ford and is beating the world in all levels of production period. I say good for Ford and good for American business. This is however the exception and not the rule. Unless you can compete in your market area on cost, quality, and service someone else will figure out a way to do so. Unions you have been served now lets see the unions start and run their own businesses.
Next
Mr Burns....I tried taking the high road and you come back and insult me....you ignorant POS! Who the hell told you that you are the only one that can be right! That is the biggest problems with morons like you. You think you know everything and that there is only one side of issues....YOUR side! Well....I know quite a bit about corporate structures and the way that they work financially. And while you are indeed correct that corporations do pay taxes, it is offset by the billions that they make as both profit and revenue returns from the govt. Many companies are enjoying record breaking profits in the midst of a recession. And....I agree...that defense spending is 20% of the fed budget, which in effect means that they get 1/5 of all the spending in the entire country! And you don't think that is too much....who's the idiot not looking at the math? And, regardless of what you say....spending is out of control, but so is the lack of revenue. You are using the same old tired talking points of the top 400 people....I got news for you....there are a lot more than 400 people in this country making over 250,000.00 a year, which is what the proposal is for. Why don't you people ever look these things up?
Purely coincidence. To be honest, I think unions are more necessary the last couple of years and will be in the near future, but only until this recession is really fixed. And for only one reason, and this is why unions made our economy awesome following the great depression: Business says it can't find the talent and skill it needs coming right out of university. So what can they do? They can train people - the same way it was done in the unions when people were working rather than going to school. Yes, unions were around before the Great Depression, but they would never have become as powerful in the US as they were 20 years ago without it.
Did you all see this headline:
Surprise: New insurance fee in health overhaul law
http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/business/2012/12/11/new-health-insurance-fee/1760479/
see what happens when you dont question your dictator
@Swan37,
Except it doesn't limit the unions' rights or the companies' rights. The relationship between the union and the company still exists. They can still negotiate and come to a mutual agreement. Companies can still hire who they want and unions can still acquire new members. The only "right" that is going by the wayside is the "right" of the union to collect money from people who don't want to be members. The individuals' rights are expanded to have that choice of whether or not to join.
Unions are upset because now they'll be held accountable since poor performance will cost them money that used to be guaranteed regardless of what they did. They'll actually have to work to attract and retain members. Union officials are more worried about their own pocketbook than they are about their members'. If I get the same employment benefits without paying dues, what incentive do I have to join? If I'm a good employee that doesn't run into discipline problems and need the union to back me, then the union has to come up with something else to entice me to join. That cuts into their bottomline and ultimately affects the big money that the higher ups reel in for themselves.
flbikerchick,
You have obviously never been valued. Not surprising. You also have no clue what it takes to find, train, and develop a good employee. They are not a dime a dozen. They are extremely valuable. Again, obviously have never been valued.
Did anyone else notice that all the union members were dressed in red? Ya'll know that red symbolizes communism. Red flag and little red book. Interesting reading how unions were developed out of the red movement in the early part of the last century. At that time they served a purpose and can be thanked for the labor laws we have today. Unfortunately along with that came the Communist mentality that still exists today.
stevef00,
Sorry, but when morons put out horrible ideas, someone has to point it out to them.
Let me help you out since you have no clue what you are talking about.
1. Yes, companies make profits, how this means they dont pay taxes, idk. Just about every corporation has to pay net taxes, even if they use subsidies that every other corporation uses. There is no such thing as corporate welfare. Educate yourself.
2. I brought that up because if you take out all of our military spending, we would still run at a deficit. You libs try to say that if we just didnt spend all that money on our military we wouldnt be running up debt. I also want to cut military spending, but the fact that you focused only on that shows that you are ignorant on the costs. Educate yourself.
3. We take in about 15% of our gdp through taxes (federally), then spend about 25% of our taxes in government spending. The wealthy already pay (at over 33%) a fourth of all taxes. Multiply it by three and you get about 26% of our gdp. So yes if you tax the richest people all of their money, you would not run a deficit. If you taxed them at half, and got rid of our military spending, we would still have a deficit. Educate yourself.
Sorry for being rude, but you said I was wrong then never took an economics or math class and tried to say the same tired talking points which mathematically do not work out if we dont tackle our biggest problem, entitlements. Educate yourself.
I'm confused as to why this is viewed as anti-union?
Unions still have the right to form and the right to collectively bargain. They just don't have the right to forcibly extract dues. If people see the union as beneficial, which many times it can be, then they will pay their dues. If the union acts more like a dictatorship than a representative of the people's want/needs, then they won't survive. Isn't this a good thing?
This should make the unions better by adding accountability.
Andrew: You are way beyond confused. You wouldn't get it if someone dropped a bus on your head, so give it up!
How is andrew confused? Facts please
I think Andrew is spot-on. If unions are so great then they will continue to thrive without forced dues and forced membership. Because as it is unions act exactly like an organized crime ring running a protection racket.
JCnGAM
Could you explain it?
JC is a union guy, lol. Andrew is correct in his assessment!
Now the state of Michigan and companies can charge a fee for deducting union dues !
If unions are truly in it for the little guy, would they really mind if some people get the benefits without paying out? I mean it's all "for the greater good", right?
Someone dropped a bus on JCnGAM's head he has no clue what he is talking about.
For the last 60 years no worker has been required to join a union. However, if the union gets improved benefits for all workers, non-union members are expected to pay a fee for sharing in the benefits. The Michigan GOP has now eliminated that fee. This change makes payment of union dues voluntary even though the union negotiates on all worker's behalf.
Andrew is correct.
I am not anti-union but there needs to be value in it for both sides, the people and the employer. Unions need to re-invent themselves and provide value which can be supported by employer and employee, sometimes this is not always possible but try harder.
You don't see why it's anti-union? Really? If an employer is allowed to hire people who aren't union, then the union has ZERO power anymore, because their only leverage, the threat of strike, is rendered useless, as there will always be non-union folks who can fill their jobs.
I realize that Fox news and its allies have done a great job of convincing people that unions are the problem in this country, but use your brains. Look at the way Chinese workers are treated by companies like Apple, and then think about it: that's how American corporations CHOOSE to treat their workers when they can get away with it. In other words, when there's no union. It's a sad day to see America returning to the "Grapes of Wrath" days, but that's exactly where we're headed.
Thanks Freedom for at least bringing up some facts.
I worked in Missouri in a union shop (I was in part of the shop that was not union) and you had to (were forced to) join the union to be able to seek employment at the company. That is what I don't get. Why do I have to join the union to work there? What if I want to prove my worth and work without the shelter of the union? What if I disagree with unions and what they stand for? Why can't I work in the union shop without being part of the union? Why force me to join the union to work there? I didn't join the union and left the company for better work elsewhere, but I still don't understand why they force everyone that worked there to join the union. And this is what my union friends said.
And on the flip side, CEO's should be required to show why they are paid millions! What is the ave dif now 460 times the wages of the laborer per hour? You are going after the wrong people for answers, Oh No.
Thanks Freedom! I think workers having a choice is the right thing to do. I'm confused about one thing though-if a worker passes on joining the union and does NOT pay dues then why does the union negotiate for a non member?
they still have the right to colective bargan if the do get a raise in pay or bennies do u think the do nothing pay nothing free loader should also get the raise????if u do, why- you didnt do anything to deserve it. it seems like theres a lot of free loaders that want the bennies but dont want to pay for them
Will,
If the unions are as good as you believe they are, then the unions will survive, if not, then the unions will have to change to fit the needs of the workers.
This is all purely political. Republicans are trying to bust unions so that they don't support democratic ventures.
I'm all for taxing corporations just the same.
This is Republicans silencing via citizen's united the union's voice.
Peace - Non-union employees usually receive the same benefits as union employees simply because it's easier for the employer to follow one contract instead of a paying some employees according to a union contract and the rest according to another (or multiple other) agreement(s). Unions resist "right to work" laws because if you aren't forced to pay dues but will still receive the same benefits, why pay the extra money?
If unions are so good for everyone.... Why do they resort to EXTORTION? Why the "Chicago-way"?
Kathryn...I'm in complete agreement with you. CEOs are the biggest drain on their own businesses. What business can afford a hundred million year after year and not have to downsize, outsource and offshore to keep the CEO in the 1%?
The stupids of the right are so sure they and only they have ALL the answers. Sure...that's why under an 8 year neocon regime 8 million Americans lost their jobs and the ante offshore was up to $33 trillion in untaxed dollars...Now? Now? these righties are bitching about a union chief's 6 figure salary? When Mr. McBillions throws 6-figures out the window just for fun and games?
Right to work laws lower wages 6-8% according to studies.
http://www.epi.org/publication/datazone_rtw_index/
Eric...The wages in the US right now are at the levels they were in 1966...with one caveat...the cost of living has octupled since 1966...So low, low salaries, high high cost of living...3rd World USA here we come...and we can thank the rich asses for that. There they are folks...laughing up their sleeves at the skankwad tricks they've pulled since Reagan let these foxes in the henhouse.
These rich jerks really and truly believe their money can't ever run out. Oh no? That's what the Robber Barons thought too in 1929. Gave new meaning to the saying, "Take a flying leap."
Eric----only 6-8 %.....what happen to my Twinkies? Now that's 100% of a loss
Mike...sorry to inform you, but CEO are the biggest do nothing freeloaders in a business. Pointing and delegating the dirty work you are afraid will get those tender lily white pattied dirty isn't work. Neither is sitting on your ass all day in front of your board members yapping away about the cost of payroll.
Republicans are suck ups to the rich and they know it. They are not elected to a job they know is supposed to benefit the greater good. Now, it's rich man first and to hell with the rest.
Oh yeah? Come 2014, there won't be a GOP candidate left to vote for.
Here we go again..... It is not the GOP alone that busts unions... the unions do a pretty good job in killing their competitive ability - there are plenty of Democratic CEO's and COO's who pack jobs off the China as well.
I live in an RTW state - and yes the pay is low, but most of us still have our jobs... so far. A high paying wage average does not mean squat IF you are not employed...
Unions protected the workers industrial age to what OSHA and many regulation agencies do now. This is the problem I have with an established union at a work site:
- After 30 days you need to join and pay the dues
- Your money at the union automatically goes towards democratic elections regardless of your political affiliation
- You are bullied to believe in what the union preaches. We've all seen this before in high school, they are called clicks...and yes they are bullies
- They use words like corporate greed and rich fat cats to justify your thousands of dollars a year membership, then blame those fat cats when you cant pay for gas, food, etc. They the company goes under (Hostess) because the world is not a union run system and can not compete on a global scale
Only thing that Unions have done:
-increased the pay of every worker today. non-union workers have benefited from union lobbying. unfortunately from the above point, we can no longer compete in this global economy so its starting to nullify the point.
- if you force the 'fat cats' to stop receiving big pay checks, they will leave to profitable companies that do pay and, said point above, the company will fail regardless and you back to square one
ewent
what the heii did you say? all i got is that you are envious of the big guy. when a person starts a bussiness and makes the bussiness successful why should he not make alot more its his bussiness. granted the ceo of corporations makes a sickening salary he also has the corp. on his shoulders and is the one held accountable so if the corp thinks hes worth it why blame him. put yourself in his place sure you live very nice you also have alot on your plate so please think before you type or breath
Why do you make it seem as if the negotiating of a contract is some huge ordeal. It has been made into an ordeal more so by un-sustainable demands and previously bargained for perks that are no longer financially feasible. Stop making it seem like a non-union employee receiving the same package as a union shill is somehow an affront to the Vulture Lawyers who do the negotiating on behalf of the unions. Let's be real hear, Unions have to hire Contract lawyers to assist in the bargaining and to spend countless hours going over financial statements to squeeze more and more perks from employers. And you are right, what need would there be for a union if you weren;t forced to join it. Absolutely none. Unions were a necessity at the beginning of the industrial age because there were no protections in place for workers. There was no OSHA. There are so many worker protection laws nowadays that a union is pointless. When unions turn every worker into the same worker, regardless of skill and intelligence, that is just wrong, and kinda communistic. When unions spend the majority of their time defending poor workers out of the coffers of the good workers, that is a problem. When Unions use employee dues to make political donations on their behalf, regardless of their political affiliation, that is wrong . Death to unions.
JMJ, you are right. hat is a 100% loss. And they have proven it was caused by the bad management, NOT by the Unions as they tried to claim. Google it yourself for the truth. The wealthy want to remove the unions so that they can cut wages, benefits, health and safety standards, and be able to fire anyone who fights against these changes. The GOP has, as usual, bowed down and passed laws to aid them in this endeavor. Those who hate unions should remember the bad old days when there were no unions and working people staved or were killed or injured by conditions at work with no recourse. They would fire anyone who was trying to start a union in the business. There was and remains a serious interest for all of us to be unionized.
Thanks Joey! Kind of defeats the Unity of the Union if people choose to pass on membership...........
will-4261276
Absolutely correct... unions will no longer be able to extort ridiculous demands from companies unless they can convince the non union workers that it's worth striking for... else the non union workers make LOTS of overtime while the union guys sit in the chairs outside the fence....
@Peace: In answer to your question, if non-union employees did not get the same wages and benefits for doing the same job, then there are two problems. First, it's discrimination. Second, unions will just use their money to bribe companies into paying their non-union employees less in an attempt to coerce those employees into joining the union. And unions are very good at coersion. That's one of the biggest problems with them.
People can go on and on about how they are "freeloading" to have the same wages and benefits as union employees, but that's ridiculous. Everyone working the same job should make the same amount given the same skill and time with the company. If the union wants to try and improve wages and benefits, that's fine. But it doesn't change the fact that everyone with the same skill and employment length deserves the same pay. Unions don't have to try to get better wages and benefits. That's their choice to have that be their business. They just have to accept that they can't discriminate against anyone in doing so.
And for anyone who doesn't know, that requirement isn't part of this law. That's from the Supreme Court some time back.
Also, keep in mind that the scare tactics used by many saying that we'll end up with forced labor camp style work like we had early last century have no real truth behind them. There are laws to prevent that regardless of unions. The laws may have come about thanks to unions back then, but they are there regardless. You won't see children in sweatshops just because unions lose power. Even if unions completely disbanded, you wouldn't see that.
Could pay in jobs drop if unions leave that company? Yes. That doesn't necessarily mean that the company is bad, however. Unions very often force companies to pay over and above fair wages. Unions often force companies to have far more employees than are necessary. So if a union left a company, wages may drop to fair levels and unnecessary employees could lose their jobs. In the end, that means a far more efficient company and that's not a bad thing. And for the better companies, that can also mean lower costs for the consumers and that benefits many people.
I'm not anti-union, but I don't agree with having to pay a union or being forced to be in a union if you do not want to just so you can have a job.
1. Surely even you realize that shareholders vote on CEO's pay packages? Or are you so forgetful you can't even remember a news story such a short period ago about Vikram Pandit at Citibank whose pay was non-existent for a period while he turned the bank around? But if you're talking about CEO's who are sole shareholders of a company, then to be blunt: their business, do want they want. Don't like the pay, then quit and start your own company and compete. You should be $100M ahead of the game, right? Plain and simple math.
2. You may want to take off your blinkers for a second if you think only GOP leaning corporations are guilty of shielding revenue from the IRS (or any worldwide taxing agency for that matter). In fact are you that cocooned that you aren't aware of what is going on in Europe relative to big-name DNC supporting companies like Amazon, Apple and Starbucks? Go read for example Apple's annual report and pay close attention to their cash on-hand. Do a little research how they amassed that, it's not exactly a secret. And to give you a headstart, it involves credits taken for potential overseas tax liabilities that they know darned well they won't ever incur.
Despite the governor's simplistic claim that he is "pro-collective bargaining," I am moved to wonder how workers who rely on a union to collectively bargain on their behalf will be able to continue that reliance on the union staff to do so for free, if no one pays union dues.
Sounds like a lot of "window dressing" applied to a poorly-veiled attempt to weaken unions and collective bargaining in general by the disingenuous Republicans in Michigan.
how much money does a rich @!$%#er need?
Poor Will @ 3.11.....Don't blame this on Fox News, George Bush, The Tea Party, or anybody else....the PEOPLE OF MICHIGAN voted for these measures; that is why these big changes have come about....time for you to man-up, quit your cryin', and tell your union buddies to go find a job (and to keep their union dues)....LOL
@Voter: I agree completely with #1. If a company pays fair wages and the CEO gets paid a ton of money, so what? Sure, I'd love to be paid more. I'm not in the middle class yet and getting there would be nice. But I'm not running the company. I make a fair wage for what I do and I accept that. Sure, some companies will distribute greater wage increases if the company is doing well instead of letting the CEO get most of that extra money, but it certainly isn't required. And in cases with an owner rather than a specific CEO type of person, where the owner is the one who created the business and runs it... they put in the effort to get it prospering, so they deserve to make money from it. I certainly am not going to complain just because someone else makes money. That's just dumb. If I make money, I wouldn't want people complaining about me making money, so I won't do that to others.
If people think they can do what the CEO does, then they should become a CEO. Then they can make that much money. Too hard? Too much work? Too much schooling? Too lazy? Well, then don't complain that you aren't making that much money. When you accept a job offer, you know the pay. If you don't agree with the pay, then don't take the job. It's as simple as that. And if you are fine with the pay, then stop complaining about what other people make.
They can still send in their dues if they want.
"Disingenuous"... bah humbug !
Unions belong to the past.
I work for a big retail company , we are a non-union company , however our benefits surpass benefits from unionized competitors, we have health insurance that include dental and eye exams, we have 401k plan, we have stock ownership at 10 % cheaper than the market price, we have salaries increase every year base on achievements, we have paid vacation, we have sick leave, bereavement leave, maternity leave, we have a corporate college that educate us to step up into higher level in the company all of this without unions. We don't need unions anymore unions are the problem to create private jobs. The only ones that benefit from the unions are the union bosses and politicians in detriment of the private companies and local and state government most of then can't pay benefits to theirs employees.
Republicans are scum. We have a governor like the one in Michigan in our Governor's Mansion too. He sold out to big business and the corporate world last year. His name is Wacko Walker! We almost got him out, but he got 53% of the vote. Many are now sad they voted to let him finish his last term.
Are you even listening, Michigan GOP? Because you've apparently learned nothing from this past election. And those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.
So do jackasses.
oskar-1391552
Actually, your situation is an excellent example of the "freedom of choice" enjoyed by the workers in your obviously enlightened company: The freedom to organize a union, or to choose not to.
Why should the freedom to choose to organize a union by workers not fortunate enough to work in a company like your, then, be subverted by politicians?
If freedom of choice isn't a two-way, yes-or-no decision, then it's a myth.
Nothing in this Michigan bill denies the right to organize a Union, it gives the "freedom" to an employee to be or not to be a member union. This is all about freedom to chose.
i worked in a union...with ALL AND LET ME MAKE IT CLEAR....ALL Republicans.... these were and still are well paid people...yet when the company put on a pancake breakfast for us... all you can eat... for 5$(all donations to the UNITED WAY).... they all demeaned the HR dept....and the volunteers putting it on...
you ask ALL them Repubs..if they want their UNION to be 'right to work'.... yep Anchorage Alaska plumbers and pipe fitters...so hypicritical.... i actually feel sorry for people like that.
Republicans protecting american workers and jobs...? TOOOOOO FUNNY.
...they create NAFTA laws giving tax breaks to companies who take job overseas...then during this campaign...America wakes up to find out how Romney and greedy rich hide the profits from taking American jobs overseas, putting the profits into offshore accounts to avoid paying taxes on the capital gains. Then Repubs run on a platform to lower and end capital gains taxes....so they pay nothing after taking American jobs overseas....
Then ...on 7-19-12...the republicons block the bill to end tax breaks to companies taking jobs offshore...and block the bill to give tax breaks to bring American jobs back....!!!!And you think republicans care about american workers.....? AAAAHHHHhahahahahahaha If you do...you are a Fox fake news watcher. Get a clue rt wingers.......you are supporting the right to make less and work longer....and harder while the profits go overseas...and the repubs want you to pay higher taxes because the rich won't pay.
oskar-1391552
Please refer to post 3.34, the gist of which is: Without paying dues to support the efforts of union negotiators to perform their collective bargaining tasks, how can the workers expect to receive the fruits of the negotiators' labors for free?
When current union members have no such expectation, why should new hires who opt out of paying union dues expect to enjoy the benefits gratis?
Next on SEIU's agenda: take it all the way to SCOTUS, with of course, the DOJ's backing
Guess Mr. Obama has to "collar" his speech writer because of the flubs in his Michigan teleprompter campaign speech supporting the Unions.
HEYA, unions members....better start finding out to whom, to what, and to where your Union fees are going.
starsailing....you have been watching too many Liberal media outlets. Time to get a clue in the REAL World.
No one is saying lower wages in the U.S. If you want a level playing field on goods sold, tax the imported products so the price point for the U.S. produced product is lower then the import price or at least the same. Then it is just an issue of quality for the consumer. Price is no longer part of the equation. Jobs and industry will come back to the U.S.. Who in Washington actually has the guts to mandate that kind of initiative? (I don't know anyone in Washington that has the guts). Washington panders to India and China especially when India & China line the back pockets of both Democrats and Republicans in Washington with money and continue to buy our bad debt. Now, you say, "My congressman and senator would never do that". Who are you kidding! It should be considered treasonable to take a payoff from competing countries. India and China aren't looking out for America's best interest. India and China are the problem, as they create the avenues for this massive transfer of wealth. This is what really should be discussed. Lack of jobs and a weak economy are what's driving the union vs. "right to work" issue in the first place.
We in the U.S. still have the power to reverse the flow of wealth. We still control a GDP of over 25% of the total world GDP. We need to act like we have that kind of power for once. Tell your President and Congressmen to get some backbone in negotiating with the world markets instead of slowly giving everything away that we have worked for, for many generations.
You want change. That's change. Stay focused on the real prize instead of bickering about things that will not help you or your descendants in the long run.
When the Union Movement got started it had to fight with a strong right-wing then too. Just like then,there were a lot of no-nothings in the public that opposed them as well. But through being united,and after a long struggle we prevailed. It wasn't easy,and some people suffered and more than a few died. But after the struggle was won,we built the middle class for our children and their children. It seems that today we have to fight that fight again,to save America from the new robber barons. I say we get to it,but this time finish the job. The Republicans have sold themselves to the Koch's,Murray's,Vos's,and Adelson's of this world.With their attack on labor and women's rights,it will be a hard fight. But it needs to be fought,so our children and grandchildren won't have to deal with a bunch like that and their evil ideology.
Andrew, nice assessment. The Unions need to evolve and compete. If they truly have the best workers then they will prosper.
This is viewed as anti union because now the worker that is qualified to do the job correctly and efficiently can take the place of the embedded union worker that believes he has the right to stay in place just because he has been there a long time. Nothing should guarantee your job just for the sake of the guarantee. I live in a right to work state and believe me it works. No one is lazy just kicking back and surfing through life. If that is you then you are gone. Companies can thrive and keep well educated hard workers while sifting through the garbage with little backlash. I love it personally.
Star
The election is over , we don't need more of your lies. Right to work is freedom , like it or not.Jobs go overseas because labor is cheaper and there are less regulations , symple like that. Unions and regulations increase labor cost , left wingers impose more regulation to job creators, got it.
It is interesting that the CEO of GE whose company pay ZERO taxes, the Obama's Job Czar said in an interview with Charlie Rose ," it is an accomplishment the Communist Economy of China", undoubtedly for a company that exports jobs to China where the growth of its economy is based on the exploitation of their workers with cheap labor, not regulations on environmental pollution , manipulation of its currency, protectionist barrier against export of products manufactured in America is inconceivable.In what way the GE CEO Obama's Job Czar, can blend its concept of the communist achievement , coming precisely from an Obama's adviser, with the policies of labor of this administration that promote unionization of the country and increase more regulations that make more difficult the job creation
President Obama ordered the cabinet to cut $100,000,000.00 ($100 million) from the $3,500,000,000,000.00 ($3.5 trillion) federal budget.
I'm so impressed by this sacrifice that I have decided to do the same thing with my personal budget. I spend about $2,000 a month on groceries, household expenses, medicine, utilities, etc., but it's time To get out the budget cutting axe, go through my expenses, and cut back.
I'm going to cut my spending at exactly the same ratio (1/35,000) of my total budget. After doing the math, it looks like instead of spending $2,000 a month, I'm going to have to cut that number by six cents. Yes, I'm going to have to get by with $1999.94, but that's what sacrifice is all about.
I'll just have to do without some things, that are, frankly, luxuries –six cents worth.
I thought Dems were pro-choice? I guess that only applies to killing an unborn child and not to ripping money out of people's pockets to fund their elections!
Miss could I get a refill on my coffee?? **Waitress holding a hot pot of coffee** Sorry Sir that's not my section.
If you have ever been to CES las Vegas working with union workers is impossible and expensive.
Unions do nothing but drive up costs.
Why would he try to "pull her into the crowd"? If i was a trooper and saw this happen to one of my female coworkers pepper spray would be the least i would do. That guy should be arrested for assault of a peace officer among other charges. Goes to show you the type of people that were there protesting.. Furthermore government unions should be outlawed. You work for the citizens not for a union and your pay comes from the tax payers not some corporation.
After the Republicans break the Unions for their rich masters,then we can look forward to more of this:
America the Third-World Nation in Just 4 Easy Steps
Saturday, 10 November 2012 11:53 By Thom Hartmann and Sam Sacks, The Daily Take
New reports that Taiwanese transnational manufacturing corporation Foxconn may be opening up some plants in the United States indicate that our nation has now entered the terminal fourth stage of "third-worldization" or what may be better referred to simply as "recolonization."
In case you don't know, Foxconn is China's largest private employer and is responsible for making many of those parts that go into your Apple iPhones, iPads, and iPods.
While Steve Jobs may have been a visionary when it came to technological design, he wasn't a fan of labor unions - or American workers in general - so he outsourced most of his corporation's manufacturing to Foxconn, which was notorious for its low-wage labor.
Foxconn workers live in over-crowded dorms that are located on the factory grounds. They work 12-hour shifts, and are routinely exposed to dangerous working conditions. Recently, 137 Foxconn workers fell ill after they were forced to use toxic chemicals to clean iPads. And in the last five years, 17 Foxconn workers have committed suicide on the job. Nets have since been installed around the factory to catch workers jumping out of windows.
So why the heck would Foxconn look beyond their Libertarian paradise of no labor laws to come to the United States and employ a bunch of Americans?
To know the answer to that question, we have to understand the four steps the United States is currently racing through to become a third-world nation.
Step 1: Destroy Manufacturing
From 1791, when our nation's first Treasury Secretary Alexander Hamilton created an 11-point plan for American manufacturers, all the way until just the last few decades, the United States protected its manufacturing base with high tariffs on imports and government support for domestic industries.
This "protectionist" approach to trade transformed the United States into the world's largest exporter of manufactured goods, which built and sustained an enormous middle class of Americans working in factories collecting high wages.
Then the forces of globalization crept in, extolling the virtues of a world economy free from national boundaries and protections for domestic manufacturing.
With Reagan's Revolution in the 1980's, Alexander Hamilton's 11-point plant was scrapped. Tariffs were ditched and then Bill Clinton moved into the White House in the 1990's and continued Reagan's trade policies and committed the United States to so-called Free Trade agreements like GATT, NAFTA, and the WTO, removing all the protections that had kept our domestic manufacturing industries safe from foreign corporate predators for two centuries.
In the 1992 Presidential debate, third-party candidate Ross Perot famously warned about a "giant sucking sound" of American jobs going south of the border to low-wage nations.
Perot was right, but no one in our government listened to him.
In the 1960's, one-in-three Americans worked in manufacturing, producing things of lasting wealth. Today, after jumping head first into one free trade agreement after another, only one-in-ten Americans works in manufacturing.
Over the last decade, 50,000 manufacturing plants in the United States have closed down and five million manufacturing jobs have been lost. They didn't disappear, they just moved away to low-wage factories like Foxconn, in foreign nations.
Before Reagan won the White House, the United States was the world's largest importer of raw goods and exporter of manufactured goods as well as the world's largest creditor. But today, we're the world's largest exporter of raw materials and importer of manufactured good. No surprise, we're also the world's largest debtor.
When manufacturing dies, the economy goes with it.
Step 2: Harvest the Middle Class
America's working class no longer builds TVs or computers or furniture on assembly lines; they now flip burgers at McDonalds and turn down the sheets at Holiday Inns. And those high-skilled workers who used to design the marvels of manufacturing now manufacture credit default swaps and mortgage-backed securities on Wall Street.
In the 1950's when our economy still embraced Hamilton's 11-point plan, manufacturing used to account for a quarter of GDP, but today it accounts for around a tenth, replaced by the low-wage service sector and Wall Street. And this new economy can't support a middle class. A service sector can't create lasting wealth, nor can Wall Street.
Before NAFTA, the average American taxpayer earned an inflation-adjusted income of $33,400 a year. By 2008, that number dropped to just $33,000. Working Americans maxed out their credit cards and took out a second mortgage on their homes just to make ends meet. Eventually, even that wasn't enough to make ends meet.
On top of that, new financialized industries have risen up that specialize in harvesting even more wealth from the middle class. So-called private equity firms like Bain Capital execute a business model that depends on taking over American businesses, loading them with debt, laying off workers, and outsourcing labor to low-wage nations. Mitt Romney himself described Bain's strategy as "harvesting companies for a profit."
Even American factories that were more profitable than ever, like the Sensata plant in Freeport, Illinois, aren't safe from this outsourcing. Thanks to globalization, it's just a cheaper to employ labor in low-wage nations even if that means laying off 170 American workers and devastating an entire local economy.
Today upwards of fifty million Americans are living in poverty and depend on food stamps. The middle class devolved into the working class, which further devolved into the working poor class.
Local economies are collapsing, states are going bankrupt, and workers are being tenderized for colonization in the near future.
Step 3: Export American Wealth
There's a hefty price tag associated with transitioning from the world's largest exporter of manufactured goods to the world's largest importer of manufactured goods. That price comes in the form of trade deficits.
In 2011, the United States had a trade deficit of over a half-trillion dollars with the rest of the world. Essentially, $558 billion U.S. dollars is being pocketed every single year by developing nations that are now manufacturing the goods that used to be manufactured right here in the United States.
With their pockets overflowing with U.S. dollars, foreign investors begin buying up American industries. Every single second, more than $4,000 of American industry is being sold off to foreign investors.
In a virtuous economy like the United States used to run, wealth is recycled within the community. Revenue earned by the local grocery store is invested in the local bank, which then hands out loans to local businesses to hire local workers who collect paychecks to shop at the local grocery store and so on and so forth.
But when foreign investors are injected into the equation, increasingly larger chunks of wealth are not re-invested in the local economy, but are instead invested overseas in the developing world.
This is one reason why President Obama's stimulus package may not have had quite the bang for the buck as anticipated. When Americans use their extra dollars to buy a new LED television, or new clothes, or home improvements, there's a good chance that a lot of the profits are actually going to overseas investors, stimulating their economy instead of ours.
Step 4: Recolonize
With American workers desperate for any kind of opportunity to work, Foxconn and other foreign corporations now have access to a brand new pool of cheap labor.
We've seen other companies before Foxconn take advantage of these new low-wage American workers.
Ikea recently opened up a factory in Virginia, which just so happens to be a right-to-work for less state that's not hospitable to labor unions. In Sweden, where Ikea is based, workers earn at least $19 an hour and enjoy a minimum of 5 weeks paid vacation every year. Those are fairly high labor costs. So executives at Ikea have come to the United States, where they can pay workers just $8 an hour and give away just 12 days of vacation a year.
German auto manufacturer Volkswagen has also found an advantage in moving manufacturing back to the United States. They recently opened up a plant in Chattanooga, Tennessee - another right-to-work for less state. Unlike in Germany, where all the workers at major manufacturing firms are unionized, collect high wages, have good benefits, can go on strike, and sit on the company board and have a say in decisions about the company's future, none of that exists in Chattanooga.
In Chattanooga, workers are not unionized and make just $14.50 an hour. It's pretty clear what's happening, we're becoming the world's latest cheap labor source.
Not only that, it's much cheaper to send goods to American consumers when you don't have to ship the goods from halfway around the world. Plus, with growing attention paid to the fact that nothing is made in America anymore besides bombs and warplanes, foreign corporations would be delighted to be able to stamp "Made in the USA" on the bottom of their products, even if they were made by low-wage Americans.
Which is why Foxconn might be considering coming over here, too. It's hard to imagine American workers having to endure the same working conditions that Chinese workers endure at Foxconn, where nets prevent workers from committing suicide.
But given the agenda of House Republicans, that tragic reality may not be so far-fetched. Generations of labor law that produced a minimum wage, a forty-hour workweek, workplace safety laws, and child labor laws are all under attack by Republicans in Congress. And if they succeed, then there is absolutely nothing protecting American workers from suffering the same fate as sweatshop workers overseas.
The reason why this fourth stage is terminal is because there are few treatment options available anymore. If the United States were to suddenly rethink its trade policies and enact tariffs again, they would have little impact since these foreign corporations have already implanted their manufacturing centers here in the United States. The profits would continue to go overseas rather than being circulated in the local economy.
Yes, in the end, we might get a lot of the jobs that were lost in Step One, but they won't be good-paying jobs at American-owned companies. They'll be low-wage jobs at foreign-owned companies, with all the profit created from those going out of the United States. At its core that's a form of colonization. Look up King Leopold's extractive economy in Congo for a reference.
The United States is rapidly un-developing in a way never before witnessed in the history of the world. And it would be a remarkable spectacle to behold, if it weren't so damn tragic to our fellow citizens.
Let your elected representatives know that Ross Perot was right, and it's time to end this so-called "free trade" insanity.
http://truth-out.org/opinion/item/12664-america-the-third-world-nation-in-just-4-easy-steps
ANDREW and OH-NO I feel sorry for you. Even though I agree 100% with you, do you really think a union or its members would ever admit this is a good thing? Oh, my GOD, this would be heresy if this nonsense were uttered in a union hall. (Just kidding, you two, like a said I agree with you). Go Michigan, I just hope all the states become RTW! No one should be forced to join a union to work and/or pay dues to fund causes they do not believe in.
How about this... When your contract is up, let the union negotiate for the dues paying members and then let the non-paying workers negotiate theirs. Lets see how non-union members feel after that....good Luck.
There is no confusion here. The companies will fire all the union workers and then go into the mode of "If you're union, you're fired. You work 14 hours a day for $1 a week. If ya don't like it, there's 100 other people that want your job."
The fact is that the purpose of unions is to prevent companies from cheating the workers through the ability to get someone else desperate for some money. Most workers support unions but can be forced to break ties by way of starvation. This is viewed as anti-union and anti-worker because it is. Those are the tactics that will be used and "Thinkaboutit" knows it full well.
Here's my opinion, I worked union for years and now I am company, Safety Director for an electical engineering firm. Over the years I went from working in union mines to non-union mines and back to union again. I found that the union mines forced companies to keep a lot of dead weight around, people that were truly worthless but had seniority over hard working new hires. But I also found that at the non-union mines there were just as many worthless losers who had brown nosed and back stabbed their way through life. Right now I am caught in the middle of a fight over glove liners of all things. They cost $1.29 a piece and yet that union hands making $37/ hour plus subsistance don't want to buy their own and the company who is making millions on the job don't want to buy them either. It was not written into the contract and the way I look at it is if my hands were cold and I was clearing $2000 a week I would damned sure spend some of that money on glove liners rather than whining and complaining about it to a safety man who has no control over the situation. I guess what I am saying is that everybody, union and non-union are @!$%#s who are just trying to scam as much money out of life as they can. The company I work for is greedy penny pincing wingnuts and the union hands are lazy whining tool theiving wingnuts (BTW contrary to popular belief union hands are not liberals, the guys I that work for us are just as stupid, greedy, bloodthirsty, and republican as the wingnuts who own the compay, if you mention minorities, gays, muslims, the bible, hunting, etc, you get the same response from company as you do union, "read the bible, kill all animals and nuke anybody who thinks differntly"). So in my opinion you are all @!$%#s and can go f yourselves. I'm buying a Teepee and heading somewhere away from all the bull@!$%#.
ok58 at 3.27:
You must have a very low opinion of yourself if you think the CEO is worth 460 times your wages. You have lost all perspective about the difference between what the CEO does and earns versus what you do and earn. If you make $10 an hour, the CEO is making $4600 an hour.
Shareholders only care about the share price. If a CEO wants to maximize his earnings, he has to keep the dividends rolling in while keeping his pay high and yours low. If he only make 200 times what you make he could be saving 260 jobs of people like you. You think he's worth more than $2000 an hour? He doesn't care about you, he only cares about himself and making the most he can off of poor schmucks like you. And all you've got to say is "Thank you sir. May I have another?" as you bend over for the shafting you deserve..
How are you going to fight against CEOs who want to make 500 times what you make? 600? 1000? You're voice is so tiny you will never be heard. That's why unions exist. To make the little people heard and to fight against the excesses of the monied interests. It takes money to fight money and you are leaving yourself unarmed and defenseless.
Unclr Bob
You are missing one point. China
China will surpass our economy in 2 years , we made 15 trillion of dollars a year , China is making 11 trillions a year , however they are growing at 7% a year , we barely 2% , we import from China 23 % of our goods, they do only 7% , we owe Trillions of dollar to China and we will continue borrow more money for the next 4 years , I prefer those "low wages jobs come to America than go to China. We need jobs but the government also have to adjust their budget based on the GDP, if our economy grows, the government get more revenue, I wonder if the left understand it, instead to focus in more taxes to the jobs creators.
It's a shame that employees in Michigan might now have to compete for jobs, salaries, raises & benefits on the basis of their merits rather than their seniority or on the negotiating skills of their union bosses.
How can anyone who takes pride in their work, who values their own skills and experience, be upset about free market competition? If I'm twice as productive as the guy next to me doing essentially the same job, you better believe I expect better compensation than him. If my employer is a cheapskate and doesn't reward those employees that are the ones generating most of the profits, I'm more than happy to go work for his competition if I can get a better deal there.
It's a free country, or at least it's supposed to be.
As someone who owns a business in a RTW state, I agree that it is extremely hard to fire someone. In order to do so you must have documentation showing the issue that led to termination. Even then the person can still get unemployment benefits despite the fact that it could be shown that they were not doing their job, weren't showing up for work, etc. In a free market, if you want to get good staff you have to reward them. Our staff are some of the highest paid employees in the state for their posts, they get healthcare (even before the meddling of the US govt), they get dental care, they get 401(k) with matching contributions and a 32 hour work week. So all you Union lovers can just shove it...
The GOP supports "Right to work" bills. Thus, it is clear that such legislation is BAD NEWS for the American worker. When has the GOP ever promoted or enacted laws that truly protect the worker, the vulnerable? The right-wing's goal is to financially cripple union so that the fat cats can continue to drink from "the waters of abundance." Obama was re-elected. The voice of the American people was clear: we want reduced unemployment, financial and tax fairness, access to education, good health care and a safety net for our seniors and the infirmed. In spite of Obama's resounding victory, the backwards right marches on. These extremists and gilded folks are trying to recapture a past that was a dark chapter in this country's history.
Unions have fought hard to ensure the safety and survival of the American worker.
Workers who chose not to pay union dues, should be allowed that choice.
However, workers that do not pay union dues, should be allowed to reap the union benefits.
And Republicans wonder why they are hated so much.
Bob the Plumber at 3.54:
Nice try, but the $3.5 Trillion is NOT the budget for the cabinet. So you are guilty of Fox News style misinformation for low information voters by presenting simple sounding graphs and data based on meaningless data. Find out how much the cabinet budget was for 2012, then calculate the $100 Billion cut. Until you do this, just stfu.
I have to wonder how many of those out there protesting voted Republican.
This is nothing more than the systematic destruction of the working class by the GOP in order to kiss the collective a$$e$ of their contributors.
Can anyone say: Andrew Carnegie? How would that have worked out for the employees in the mills without the protection of the union?
Here is what you will get when the protection offered by unions is eliminated:
This is the GOP proving who it is that they represent. Big money, big business ... and to hell with the working class!
Correction: However, workers that do not pay union dues, should NOT be allowed to reap the union benefits.
Score - 1 for common sense decisions that will improve the economics in a State made bankrupt by Unions and parasitic welfare recipients and Score = O for Union thugs, entitlement morons, and people that think ranting and raving like communisits in Peru will allow them to get their way. The writing is on the wall for Unions, and unless the droids that perpetually flock to protests and crusades in favor of continued union suppression get it through their thick heads that the rest of us aren't putting up with their crap any longer the more likely they will have a job and not end up like the 18,000 Hostess employess starting with people like D. Appel who continue to live in the early part of the 19th Century!
I don't know how it works in other states but in Texas, if there is a union in your shop, and you are non-union, you cannot negotiate with management on your own behalf and the union does not have to represent you!!!! Talk about unfair.
I worked in a non-union factory for over 30 years and never had any complaints that were not resolved, fairly, by normal contact with management. I was a foreman for 5 years. The company had other plants that were union and the rumor was that they made higher wages. If so, good for them.
Uncle Bob - what does R A N T spell? Bombarding the blog with talking points, left-wing propaganda, and DNC spin will only motivate the morons that don't know anything about economics or business to continue their pro-Union antics and socialist agenda. If I had a choice, I would rather live with corporate greed a la Carnegie and Rockefeller than communism a la Stalin or Mao. "Corporate take over of government" my ass. Where do you people come from?????
Great post!
You forgot to add, if you part your hair on the wrong side, management will shove you out the door!
What is so tragic about these "legislative acts" that are designed to rob the American worker of dignity and fair wages, is that our citizens naively and foolishly voted for the Republicans who are now snatching bread crumbs off of their kitchen tables. We have been a self-destructive nation.
Congratulations Michigan. It is good to see you are joining the 21st Century.
No more protection money for the union thugs!!!
The true greed of union workers on full display today: "I don't want you to be able to get a job here because if you do, I'm no longer able to hold my company hostage".
Hard-working non-union people of Michigan, just be careful and stay safe!
Too bad, we were looking forward to getting about half their industry and jobs. Oh well, we've already got a good percentage of them.
Unions are the cause for the economic decline. Get rid of them all.
Jemma77, Repubs are only hated by Socialists.......
OK that's funny - yes, now Michigan actually has a chance! Which is good, I have friends there who should be able to find work now.
Did you all see this headline:
Surprise: New insurance fee in health overhaul law
http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/business/2012/12/11/new-health-insurance-fee/1760479/
see what happens when you dont question your dictator
@25Walker: There is a problem with that (keeping non-union members from getting the same improved wages/benefits as union members). It may sound okay, but it really isn't. First of all, it's discrimination and we should not be supporting that for any reason. If 2 people work equally hard and have the same set of skill and are doing the same job and have been with the company for the same amount of time, they should be paid the same amount regardless of union affiliation. Otherwise, it's discrimination. Not only that, but unions have a lot of money shown by their political contributions. That money can easily be used to bribe companies into paying non-union employees less in order to coerce those employees into joining the union. Basically the same mob behavior of "protection."
Unions need to change. They need to provide a real incentive other than what they can force the company to do for employees so they have a reason to join the union. Consider how many people would flock to a union who takes 100% of their political contributions and uses the money to provide a retirement fund for their members in addition to whatever other retirement funds may be available from the company. That would be a far better use of the money and would benefit the union members. Provide a reason to join and people will join. Continue as they are now and we'll see every state become right to work within 20 years because people are getting fed up with unions. I have family who have been in unions and are still in unions and it's just not worth it in many cases. Think of the number of people who lose a lot of money because of a strike. For many of them, the loss of money can be catastrophic, causing loss of house, car, etc. Unions can provide value, but they need to allow people to choose and they need to be more supportive of what their members want rather than what the leaders want.
@3.55 -- Randy, your comment about the union waitresses at CES in Vegas made me laugh, because I've experienced the same thing there and thought "wtf?" -- you're standing right there 2 feet from me with a pot of coffee but I can't have any because I'm "not in your section?"
Other great examples include trying to pump your own gas in New Jersey, or one I experienced at a previous job -- I was sent to Alabama to replace an integrated circuit on a piece of my company's equipment. Even though it was Alabama, the place was a union shop. Imagine my surprise when I learned that I wasn't allowed to touch the equipment that I designed and that my company built and sold to this customer -- the work had to be done by a union electrician. Did he have any experience with microelectronics or circuit boards? No, but that didn't matter, because the rules said if it involved electricity, then only a union electrician could touch it.
So this dude comes over, pulls the circuit board out of the cage, tries to remove a chip from its socket with an enormous pair of pliers (totally wrong tool for the job) and then in the process of trying to install the new chip, he mangles all the pins. After removing that new chip, straightening the pins and trying to reinstall it again a few more times, he finally got it. What should've taken a minute, maybe 2 minutes at most, took close to an hour, and we were lucky the unit was functional by the time he was done man-handling it.
But hey, at least I didn't "take work away from a union man" by trying to do what I was trained to do and he was not.
That was 20 years ago, and was my first real experience dealing with union guys in the workplace. That was probably the first time it occurred to me that it's a good thing most American employees don't belong to a union, because if all of corporate America operated the way a union shop operates, our economy would go down the toilet faster than you can say "break time!"
Andrew-2239408
"They just don't have the right to forcibly extract dues. If people see the union as beneficial, which many times it can be, then they will pay their dues. If the union acts more like a dictatorship than a representative of the people's want/needs,..."
Substitute the words "government and taxes" for "union and dues". That's why.
I think the thing that boggles my mind is... THAT NO ONE IS FORCED TO APPLY FOR A UNION JOB..................SO IF YOU DON'T WANT A UNION JOB THEN DO NOT APPLY FOR A UNION JOB.....common sense go to walmart or mc Donalds or taco bell or familydollar ot the list goes on and on.......There you don't have to fight for a fair wage you have to fight to try and get full time 40 hours a week.....so you will be eligible to buy your own health insurance and life insurance.
@D antiX: Not a good comparison. Taxes are necessary to run the country. So is government. The government may not be very good, but it is still needed. Union dues aren't necessary. The union could choose to voluntarily get things done, but then they'd lose the money they want to spend to buy politicians.
Compete with who? They are not in business! Their purpose is to provide bargaining leverage for workers through collective bargaining with management for good wages, decent benefits and safe working conditions. Who would you have them compete with?
Riamus
You're right, unions are unnecessary. We can always go back to a 90 hour work week and send 12 year olds to the coal mines...think how much money the Koch Brothers will make. We can compete with the Chinese by paying American workers $2/day and a bowl of rice. Of course we can also kiss our economy good bye...then watch the blood in the streets.
Sow your seeds, not mine,
From 2000-2008, your user-name should have been the cry of the American people. What power do unions wield on Wall Street? What unions run the greedy thieving Big Banks? What unions are in the drivers' seats in tax-avoiding Corporate America? What unions caused the mortgage meltdown? What unions raided the U.S. treasury? What unions are "hiding out" in The Caymen Islands? Your post reflects total confusion and/or lies.
one thing is painfully clear. the gop hates unions and are moving quickly to do away with them. when that day comes then wages will fall dramatically for workers as well as benefits and all these gop supporters who think that big business is there for them will see that the only care about profits and conditions for workers will fall dramatically and then they will look back and see what it was like before unions when people worked for nothing and people died on the worksite everyday in this country. when you could work all week and owe more to the company than you made. the the future the gop is looking for becuase workers can support their campaingns only big business can and that all they care about
@ starsailing in 3.46
You're comparing this to NAFTA? You do realize NAFTA was signed and FULLY endorsed by Clinton? It passed the Senate 61-38? 27 of those supporting votes coming from democrats? Majority of the dems in the senate favoret this, and actually had a higher opposition rate for republicans? Considering they were majority, and 21 of the 52 actually opposed it? You spout nonsense, but you have no idea who supports what. You just repeat whatever crap you're told apparently. Oh yeah, and even Clinton said, when signing it (have to paraphrase it since I can't remember exactly) that he wouldn't sign NAFTA if he didn't believe it meant American jobs.
Ol_Doc
Maybe with the non-union employees? Apparently they want to work for less. Let them. If the company wants to hire them, let them. If unions actually have higher quality employees, then why would a company steer away from them? It's all a give and take situation. People in the U.S. know what they want to make. They don't have to hire on with a company that doesn't wish to pay.
Too bad, we were looking forward to getting about half their industry and jobs. Oh well, we've already got a good percentage of them.
We can just add this latest outrage to the growing list of evidence that Republicans don’t give a damn about democracy............ Without unions EVERY working persons benifits would be eliminated and their salaries would be cut by a minimum of 25%.
The union basher's out there are either operating out of ignorance or are being paid by those who would exploit the workers of America.... In other words Republicans.
Every average American should be concerned by this un-democratic political move made by Michigan Republicans. This is more evidence that the owners of the Republican Party like David and Charles Koch will do anything tp destroy our democracy so they can gain power over all of us.......
Wake up people, these people are traitors........ period.
I am yet to see a good employee who needs a Union to represent him in the workplace. The benefits of being in the Union are highly overrated and in most cases detrimental to a healthy workplace. In all of my working years, Unions were nothing but an out of control bully, living on the backs of the working public and pocketing their hard earned cash, a reincarnated Al Capone.
Having other people take your hard earned money should never be mandatory. That said its good to see this bill pass. Unions are crying because they won't be able to steal other peoples paychecks.
How is that? I took a job where joining a union was a condition of employment. That makes it more of a 'no worker has been required to take a union job'... my choice was take the job or not, but if you don't join the union you don't get the job. When the job ended the union was notified with a registered letter, but still came after me for past dues years later. How did that help me in any way?
The back-handed way this bill was rushed through a lame duck legislature to a Republican Governor tells us there is something rotten in Lansing.
There is a silver lining. Once the people of Michigan discover the havoc on wages and benefits caused by this bill, the Republican reign of terror will end for decades. I fully expect the same on a national level after the battles of the fiscal cliff and raising the coming debt limit have been concluded.
The Republicans have forgotten their last 20 year banishment from the White house (1933 to 1953) while Congressional majority was withheld until 1996. These are different times with the very same worn out Republican tactics. Adios and good riddance.
Collapsing my comment without arguing against it is a tacit admission that you know I am right but don't want people to see it. I expect there are a lot of corporate shills on the board today.
I read these posts and understand what James Madison said about the masses.
One small step for the republican party, one giant leap for the hidden rich. But no worries republicans, your children and grand children etc. will reap the rewards for being paid less and owing their lives to the company store. I hope you live a very long long long life so you can see their pain. But then again, we all know you will find somebody or something else to blame. But in the end................................
For years the ultra-wealthy have been portraying unions as the big bad monsters out for your money. And those campaigns worked. Half of the US is now right to work. Does anyone know the following answer? How many of those states are better off today? I only looked at Florida and Kentucky and the cost of living has gone up but wages have not kept up.
Someone earlier replied, yes the wages are low but at least I have a job. I understand being grateful for a job and I understand concession when times are hard. But when some multi-millionaire stands up and tells me that I am better off without the union and I should instead trust him with my future then I say no thanks. Unions aren't perfect and corruption exists everywhere including government, businesses and even churches. How many companies offer a pension today? Is there one person out there that is working a non-union job that has a pension? I don't have one. And I can save my own money and hope I have enough to retire but the likelihood for that happening for most Americans is small.
Know thy enemy. Unions are not the enemy but a few well placed media scandals and some really glossy words can disguise the true wolf.
73% of union shop jobs get shipped overseas. 13% of Non-Union shops get their jobs sent overseas.
Just a thought. HOW MANY UNION JOBS ARE MINIMUM WAGE. Everyone has a right to work I agree, but if you don`t want to join the union or pay the dues you should not fall under the CBA.
I think we can settle this argument. Let those who complain that they're getting the shaft put up the money and the effort to start a business. If they make it go, they all need to divide the profit equally with everyone. I don't think so..... and netiher will any of you poor people being shafted. Instead you will opt to become a Republican. Who else is going to help you from being robbed.
@Voter-in-LA - hey dude I am in LA too, your post is so full of dung, only one, just one misrepresentation is your fallacy that shareholders vote the compensation of CEO's among others: dude the mega-corporations under consideration the shareholders are represented by proxies and only major shareholders vote on proposed compensation packages, and not in all cases, it is the board of directors that make the final decision now take your blinders off....there are more misleading statements you make but let's leave at this.
Have a Good Day and Good Luck....
99.9% of American jobs that are shipped overseas are in quest of slave labor. We can never compete with that. It has absolutely nothing to do with tax rates or unions. We could use a law that requires revocation of American citizenship for all that set up shop overseas by closing shops here. There are many ways to beat this devil. The day of reckoning is coming sooner than many think.
@ Voter-in-LA - your smoke and mirror post # 3.33 - do you know what a proxie is? geez....
!!!SHAME!!!!
NBC, just another Pravda-like collaborator.
View, for the truth:
The Lily Ledbetter acts prohibits paying women less than men regardless of union or not. So the idea that union workers can be paid different would be agaisnt and Obama passed law.
Nah ido, liberals have been living in a dream world, ever since robin hood.
Is a thief a criminal, if stealing is not illegal?
@3.103 -- Brian said "Everyone has a right to work I agree, but if you don`t want to join the union or pay the dues you should not fall under the CBA."
That's right. If I'm the non-union guy that is twice as productive as the union guy doing similar work to me, I should get a bigger raise than him. Oh wait, he's covered under the CBA, so he gets the same raise as everyone else in the union, covered by the same CBA. The union guys who work hard and work smart get short-changed by having to cover for the ones who are mostly worthless. I'll be happy to get my share of some of the raise that should've gone to the smart, hard-working union guy who got shafted because he got lumped together with the losers and the deadwood.
That's the problem with the "collective" in "collective bargaining" -- it treats people like they are interchangeable, like a warm body is a warm body. This attitude that "labor is labor" might have made sense 100 years ago when most industrial workers did the kinds of jobs that are now done by robots, but in the 21st century, I prefer to be graded and rewarded on my own skills and my own work and my own contribution to company profits.
I would rather see the deadwood get swept out the door and replaced by someone who is ready, willing & able to work than to put myself in the same collective bargaining bucket with someone who makes my job harder because he is unwilling or unable to do his job well.
Excuse me.. But since when is stealing not illegal?
Right to work is anti-union and anti employee. Under right to work, the employee has no say whatsoever. The employee can be fired at will and has no recourse.
As a member of a new local union in a right to work state, many employees did not join. As time went on, a pattern started to develop. When a non-union employee was in trouble, (s)he immediately joined the union. The benefit of joining a union far outweighs the right-to-work. Employers do not want unions. They want to go back to long working hours, no vacations, no sick days, no personal days, no overtime, no job security, no benefits, etc.
The real problem is that today's workers don't appreciate what they have because it came easily to them. They didn't have to fight for anything, and their heads have been filled with anti-union crap. Right to work gives all the rights to the employer.
The real truth about right to work is that it is the right to work for next to, if not, nothing. Look at the history of right-to-work states and their current prevailing wages. "right" to work is just a polite way to say you are signing on to be the bosses' slave.
The big lie is that right-to-work does not interfere with union formation, it does. Union organizers are at a distinct disadvantage in right-to-wok states as all employment essentially becomes at the employer's pleasure. A company man (or woman) can stand at company gates and see if any worker accepts a piece of paper from an organizer. If that worker does, they will find themselves sent home, jobless, the next day. And likely to meet their spouse there, also now jobless. And don't tell me that this doesn't happen, I have seen it. The federal protections for union formation are generally weak and easily circumvented. In worse cases, anti-union companies have been known to simply shutter plants where organization does start to take effect. The shuttered plants may remain closed for a period to be reopened, usually with a new workforce, or sold to another subsidiary to reopen under a new name, again with new employees. Having another, organized plant in the area allows the union a counter-pressure to allow the organizing process to proceed to a vote, under federal law, to determine the true employee sentiment.
Much has been made about the union-organized crime connection, but that connection grew out of company goon squads, often composed of off-duty state police, Pinkerton and other private police firms and specially hired company employees. Organized crime provided a counter to the violence (beatings, burnings, and even murders and lynchings of union activists). Miners in Colorado were even machine gunned by the Colorado National Gaurd while striking against the unsafe conditions and low pay (1880's).
And if you think those are all dated references, consider this: The inequities in pay between labor and upper management in many companies is as great or greater than it was in the 1880-1920 period of our history. The difference between then and now? Most of those companies were controlled by a single man or family (like WalMart or Koch Industries today). Today, CEO's and CFO's make themselves look good by "improving" worker productivity: cutting wages, extending work requirements, cutting or eliminating benefits, and ultimately out-sourcing work (frequently off-shore). The executives demanding these labor changes have no real ties to the firms they command, often only serving 2-5 years before moving to a more lucrative post with another company. And they are given these jobs by boards of directors who typically sit on 5 or 6 other corporate boards, and actually may help the executive move to a new job. Seems like top management has its union, the same one it wants to deny the poor schmuck actually making the product.
How does the conservative movement convince middle class Republicans that the KY jelly the're being force fed tastes good? I just don't get it. The middle class has been getting stomped on for 30 years. Wake up people!!! These pundits do not have your best interests at heart. CEO pay has gone through the roof and the litlle guy gets less and less.
As clinton said, davemo, it all depends on your definition.
": to take the property of another wrongfully and especially as a habitual or regular practice" The key word is wrongfully.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/steal
I thought the nitwits were pro-choice? I love it when the union bosses start to scurry about like rats for another piece of cheese.
You see, you can work hard, save your money, invest it in and create a company where there was none before.
Then the president says, "You didn't make that." Well, if he is right, would it be stealing for him to take it? Ta dah, general motors!!! To us owners, it sure felt like it was stolen.
See how slippery that "wrongfully" word is? Seems to mean whatever the ones in office at the moment, wants it to mean, doesn't it?
This was never about Unions people, it was about being able to fire a person for NO REASON at all, Equal employment just got tossed out the door, now the Employer has the right to fire anyone with NO explanation at all, AGE, discrimination that's gone, RACE, that's gone also, Religion, Yep, that's gone too, and you people really thought it was about Unions ... LOL LOL LOL
oskar-1391552, I agree. In my last job we had very reasonable medical, free dental, and free vision. We had 15 paid vacation days, 13 paid holidays, 3 paid personal days, and 10 sick days per year that you could let build up to just shy of 6 months of pay before they stopped accumulating. We had $5,000 per year tuition assistance. We had a 401K with a $1 for $1 match up to the first 5% of your annual wages. We also had a pension plan that you were fully vested in after 2 years. We received annual reviews and merit increases, plus a bonus annually provided you met your goals for the year. We also had a great Employee Assistance Program and an on-site gym. There was also a adoption benefit of $10,000. This was a private sector employer. My job was eliminated due to downsizing, and I received pay for all unused vacation days, sick days, and 6 weeks salary for every year of employment, plus I was allowed to retain all health benefits for 120 days. And this job had no union. None. Never.
I find it pretty funny that leftists are outraged about "freeloading" when unions are involved. I suppose it's just different when the freeloader is someone with no job at all rather than someone who works hard enough to get and hold a job without relying on the shield of union membership. I guess it's part of the whole socialist mentality; you pay to someone else to handle all the complicated business and just keep your head down.
What I don't get, though, is all the claims that this is "undemocratic" (assuming they don't just mean "in opposition to Democrats", in which case, yeah, totally). By all indications this went through the (elected) legislature and is heading to the desk of the (elected) governer in line with proper legal procedure. What's undemocratic about it? Is that just the trendy new way of complaining about legislation you don't like?
Good! If the Unions are good for you, pay your dues. If not...don't pay. If they don't get enough money, they will go away. That's good. Why should you pay for a job? Your productivity should be enough!
Riamus, My point was that people wouldn't pay taxes either if it wasn't automatically withheld.
This about the state increasing its revenues. Regional government has state income tax, property taxes, sales taxes, and license fees. If major manufacturers go into decline there goes the income tax base, the property tax base, and the sales tax base, and the budgets for municipalities and school districts, besides state worker wage and benefit packages. Small non union shops, with their diversity, provide a buffer for property tax decline and sales tax decline. These shops might only employ a handful of laborers as individual companies, but in mass offset the loss of a large manufacturer. Some of these shops are so specialized, that to loose a few workers would put the shop out of business, so they have power when it comes to negotiating their benefits. Public employee unions do not wish for vacant property, as that is where their revenues are derived. Large private sector unions, may have a different opinion of small shops.
What does Michigan do if auto manufacturing goes to right to work states? What do Michigan public employees do if auto manufacturing moves to a right to work state. A small non union shop can more readily switch to manufacturing a different product, and keep paying property taxes, sales taxes, and state income taxes. This is economics, not religion. Unless you are manufacturing with large scale, highly technical robotics such as the auto industry, or print shops might employ, smaller more common tools and equipment can be used for other types of production, and workers stay employed. The State of Michigan is looking to keep it's coffers full, as I see it. The State of Michigan is in the business of keeping the State of Michigan afloat, and to do that must look at it's revenue sources. Those Democrats and Republicans who wish to curse each other out, are not looking at the state's real problem. If you're on a sinking ship, laying blame isn't going to plug holes or keep the pumps working.
antiX, your argument only makes sense if you equate unions to the government. We give the government special coercive power to collect taxes and imprison us for refusing because of the very special and central role that it plays in running the cities, states, and country in which we live. And even then, if you haven't noticed, taxes are controversial. I know that if you gave me the choice, I wouldn't pay for half the things the government does with my tax money!
So are unions like miniature governments now? Why are they so special that they deserve to be able to take dues from people they don't represent?
No one should have to pay ANY kind of Union Fee to work. This bill isn't about anti-Union it's all about FREE CHOICE. Those that wish to support the 6+ digit incomes of Union Management, they can pay their Union Due, Fair Share or whatever Politicians wish to call their racket. O'Bama scares ignorant people by telling them they will make less in A Right to Work State. What he is really saying is that he MAY have less money to tax and redistribute to the Entitlement Program deadbeats!!! The more you make the more the Democrats Tax and steal. The Unions, O'Bama's hired Brown Shirts, are nothing more than for hire thugs & crooks that try to intimidate and force their will on others. The 98% of employed people in Wisconsin spoke their wishes when the kept their elected Governor in Office and the Union (or 2% of those employed in Wi.) is using threats and violence to get their will. People forget that the Unions Management have always been closely related to Crime Syndicates.
Sam 627556 - what you are complaining about is covered by Federal Law. You don't need to join a Union to have these laws enforced. All you need is a President that will enforce our laws and right now we have a President that selects what laws to enforce and what laws to ignore. He'll ignore laws related to the Workforce and then scare people by telling people they need Unions to enforce Federal Law. The Unions are Enforcers and Guns for Hire to the highest bidder. O'Bama & the Democrats have ALWAYS been willing to paid the most with tax dollars of course.
Verno - when the people of Michigan put the Governor in Office after the Democrats forced a recall election - this is exactly what they voted for. They over-whelming voted anti-Union. Apparently you are one of those Union Thugs that want you way all the time and you blame everyone else for your failures. The Unions did this to themselves when they got much to involved in electing Presidents and away from supporting their members.
I have been forced to be in a union for the last 18 years! I would like to get a different job, but, I am only about two years away from retiring. I have saved in 401k's for the last few decades and have managed to put enough away that I will have a nice retirement and not be dependant on the small pension I will get. I have seen the worst of union thuggery and ignorance. I had a premium job on a premium shift because I had enough seniority and skills to get this position. I was forced to leave this job because another area shut down and "friends" of the union president were losing their jobs. They received "temporary" assignments at my location and I was promised that their presence would not affect me in any way at all. Typical for union thugs, they then eliminated my job and several of my co-workers jobs, and gave them to their buddies. This was done in complete defiance of company and union rules and the contract! I was told to "shut up and take one for the team"! I managed to keep my day shift through sheer luck instead of having to work graveyard, but, I am still not very happy with the thieving ways of our union leadership! BTW, I was promised that when the "new" placements retired I would get my old job back, but, the leadership lied to me again!
Unions are a massive drain on this country and have been since the 60's! They did serve a purpose for a while, but, now they are only a funding mechanism for the Democrats and the looney liberals who receive all of my union dues. I once tried to pull my share of union dues from political activity, but, the paperwork never seemed to get to the final person and was ceremoniously ignored!
Why in the world does somebody have to join a Union or pay Union dues when they want nothing to do with the Union? What if the person totally disagree with the Union beliefs? How can it be Constitutional to legally force a worker to join a Union and pay money to that Union, in order to make a living?
Interesting to hear people complaining about having to pay money to a private organization, yet we are all forced to buy insdurance for our cars, or face civil penalties. Shouldn't that also become "pro-choice?"
Neither extreme would be acceptable to me. I don't want to be a slave to a communist government, but neither do I want to be a slave to corporations. Capitalism is still the best deal around, but tempered with government oversight to keep the CEO's in line.
vie...numbers.....What I said was exactly true! 100% true. Better reread my post. NOTHING INACURATE! I am aware Clinton signed it. I never said he didn't...you obviously are a fox news watcher " spewing" your lies about what I sadi......Can you read the words coming out of my mouth?"...DUH! Again.....America woke up to Romney and the rich hiding their money in offshore accounts....Romney notoroiusly called the "King of Outsourcing American jobs!!!! 7-19-12 republicons blocked the vote for ending the tax breaks forcompanies who take American jobs overseas....and 7-19-12 blocked the vote to give tax breaks for companies who would bring American jobs back.
Vie...CAN YOU READ THAT AND COMPREHEND WHAT I WROTE? Republicons still want to screw the American workers and taxpayers...they want thier money offshore where they don't have to pay taxes on it. You pay the taxes that they should be paying. THEY BOLOCKED THE VOTE AND STILL HAVE NOT CHANGED!!!!!!!!! DUHHHHH!
Shipwrecked
Shipwrecked,
The working, political and social schisms that the GOP wants to resurrect is the antithesis of the 21th century and modern life. The Republicans and their hateful supporters have cloaked themselves in the past. The right wing coddles itself in aspects of life that are backwards, inhumane and deadly.
Your question should be:
"Who will protect Americans from the 3-piece-suited robbing gangs that are on Wall Street, in the banks and in corporate America?"
Andrew-2239408
Answered your own question.
starsailing
Of course not...No one can.
The gauntlant is layed If your bitch ass UNION member doesn't want to go to jail then get your bitch ass beat by the "Conservative" like were going to beat the rest of yall :D REMEMBER WACO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
When the cash-soaked big wigs supported Romney, they were trying to buy the presidential election. Their backwards agenda caused them to lose many state contests and the presidential election; they did it to themselves.
Right to work is another union busting strategy.It means you can work at a job that has union representation but you don't have to pay the monetary dues.The union still has to bargain in good faith even for those who don't pay the dues.Unions cannot survive and can't pay for legal defense for employees when needed if nobody pays their dues.This is a sad day for employees in Michigan and a cause of celebration for employers in that state.
DANM,It's called bumping and it must be in your union contract.It has nothing to do with who is friends with your union reps.You can always work in the retail sector that is non union and see how you like those apples.And what is the name of your union,by the way?Inquiring minds,that would be me,would like to know.I'd like to look into this union that does these type of things.
Apparently none of you lib/prog/union geniuses have ever been coerced into joining your unions. I was! I either joined or had an upright freezer dropped on me from a fork lift! Or had my tools hidden from me so that I couldn't fix what I had to fix! Or almost run over by a fork lift because the union operator "didn't see me!" (That genius got written up and received a two-week suspension for that cute little trick.)
In the 1970s a friend of mine worked at GM-Leeds (now closed) and joined UAW like a good little worker. Then his first strike came. He got out a pencil and paper to figure out what the strike would cost him and the "gains" the strike would bring; lo and behold he and every other UAW striker lost money on that strike. Every time the UAW struck GM, he figured out the cost/benefit ratio, realized he was losing money every time, got a college education, and became a psychologist. Lesson: figure the cost/benefit ratio for every strike you have ever been in and you will find out you have lost money.
Right-to-work is not a joke. When I worked for Western Auto in Wichita, we were all non-union, but we received the same pay and benefits as the folks in Kansas City and other closed-shop states. When WA built their new regional warehouse complex in Salina, everyone in Wichita was offered a job along with a moving allowance and assistance in selling and buying homes. Kansas City boys got zip, zilch, nada, zero; they were all unemployed. Lesson: don't push your luck.
IF they want to organise they have no need to pay some one a 6 figure salary to do so. Why do you need to pay union dues to organise? if the it is all the workers are for better pay why do you need to have some one else tell you what value you are? I don't need that I know my worth and value and if I don't get it I leave. getting a job is easy when you have worth/value.
All the Union is a arm of the Mafia to extort money for its criminal organization.
The union thugs are going crazy over this because they know full well that given a choice, most workers would not join a union and many workers already in a union would opt out.
This is why they demand that workers be forced to join and be forced to pay dues so as to perpetuate the union leaders' gravy train.
People do not understand what a union does for the employee. Nor do they understand about dues. 70% goes to the local, 30% goes to the international. Nothing yet is going to politics. Each union collects from it's members to support candidates that are labor friendly. This money is voluntary. The 30% that goes to the international is to provide services to the local's such as legal services.
To answer your question, why pay for a job? The answer is really quite simple. Once in the local, the employees have a collective voice and have a say in company policy. The employee also has a measure of job security, as you can't be fired just because the employer wants to fire you like in right-to-work states. With a union the employee can file a grievance against the company, some thing an employee cannot do without a union.
Sadly this is true and is so because of ignorance. As long as there is one labor union left, you will have higher wages, benefits, sick days, personal day, vacations, child labor laws, overtime, etc. When the unions are gone, we'll be going back to the early 1800's. Employers do not want union and have put fear into employees so that they won't unionize. Right-to-work gives all the power to the employer. It igves the worker no advantages at all.
You are mistaken. That is what we all got with Obamacare!
Wait until 2014 when Obamacare is fully enacted to see whether it is good or bad.
Can hardly wait. No more traitorous cancellations when you need insurance most after paying premiums for decades. No more refusing to pay because a common cold 20 yrs. was proposed as an undisclosed previous condition to your newly acquired lung cancer. No more decisions on proper treatment by an insurance businessman instead of your Doctor's orders.
No more 20% annual price increases that exclude 80% of our workforce simply because they can no longer afford the premiums. No more watching your child die from a curable disease as your well-heeled boss's child goes home healthy because the boss has a Cadillac plan. No longer being forced to seek much more expensive ER rates to address a condition that is now critical instead of preventive care that is much, much cheaper.
No need to look to 2014 for that opinion. Look to other industrial nations like Germany and Scandinavia that have had universal healthcare for years. The only problem with Obamacare is that it doesn't go nearly far enough, thanks to idiots like you.
I would like to point out that the so-called "Affordable Care Act" is a bit off-topic. It's a bad thing. But the fact is that both parties have their warts. They each do some bad things. But the Republicans with any kind of power are trying to restore feudalism so that most of us can be serfs. And that is on topic, because that is what "right to work legislation is designed to facilitate.
Obama-care could easily be called Teddy Roosevelt care, Nixon care or Newt Gingrich care presented as an alternative to Hilary care proposed at the time.
When did this oft proposed issue of healthcare reform long supported by Republican leadership suddenly become a poison pill for President Obama?
Remember that 5 yr. old friend that first introduced you to play Cowboys and Indians? The fun and excitement of this make-believe world captured the essence of your imagination beyond compare. Remember when your first suggestion to reverse roles was soundly vetoed by your best friend? He would always be the cowboy to repeatedly defeat you with his guns as your weapons were limited to bow and arrow. Tiny you finally got pissed and sought new friends.
Such childish games seem irrelevant to the adult you of today. Why then do you stand in support of a political party still devoted to such childish behavior? Are you blind to the facts or still enjoy playing childish games yourself?
Liberals are always about democracy when they win. The people of Michigan voted for this, it was not something the Republicans just woke up and decided to do. If the shoe was on the other foot MSNBC and all my liberal friends would be telling us how the people of Michigan put those "no-good' republicans in their place!
I voted against the unions adjusting our consitution not because I am against unions, so much, as I am against ANYONE hi-jacking OUR constitution. Now business' want to hi-jack OUR constitution.
What the H-ll is the difference? Doesn't anyone get the idea of WORKING TOGETHER?
All this is doing is creating a new battle ground, Good Job Ricky, you turd.
dogs80, the people did not vote for this. The Republican Congress in Michigan did. This was not on a voters ballot. Where do you come up with your so call facts.
dogs80...the people of Michigan did not vote for this. As a matter of fact, it was attached to an appropriation bill, so people would not be able to vote for or against it.
When I voted this last august there was a measure on that ballat to allow the right to work to be added to the bill. SO YES WE DID VOTE FOR IT.
Thanks Steve,
I was going to answer them but you did it for me. They are proving my point of blaming the Republicans just as I said they would.
The people of Michigan voted against a measure put forward by the unions to force unionization and put it in the state constitution. Thats the vote by the people everyone is talking about. Unions are collapsing and have been for a decade. If you simply look at facts not politics you will find that right to work states have better economic growth. The collapse of the auto industry is the result of unions. Thats why non union Toyota,Nissan, etc thrive and dont need bailouts..Hmmmm
So, I didn't vote for Obama and the Dems but I still get stuck with the healthcare law. Elections have consequences---Michigan voted for a Republican Legislature and they pass bills in the interest of their constituents. Thus, this bill passes.
Look for this governor and the Republicans that supported this to be voted out next cycle.
They also have higher levels of poverty, higher workplace fatality rates, lower average wages and fewer health benefits. Guess who benefits from the "better economic growth?" Give you a hint: it's not the employees.
Right to work states have 6-8% lower wages according to studies.
http://www.epi.org/publication/datazone_rtw_index/
Right to ignorance libtards can generate anything that supports their flacid arguments
rightwingscrewball...Rightwing testicles are so bloated they are about to burst. Enough with the right boi bullying...Not falling for it.
An ideology that allows snaky, slime ball tactics to make those with the most pay less and those with the least pay more can get those testicles deflated pretty damn quick. All taxpayers of the liberal persuasion have to do is demand an end to all corporate subsidies, breaks, cuts and loopholes. Then watch those skankwad righties go insane...roflmao.
@rightwingscrewball
You mean actual empirical evidence and not just the same repeated narratives over and over again in a desperate, yet successful, attempt to make ignorant people believe them?
ewent,
you shrivled up liberal hag, you would know nothing of these young, fertil brass balls or my ideologies. If my comments are what you consider "bullying" then you are weak and inept at taking care of yourself and lack ability for truly confronting challenges.
gone are the days where your shrivled up libtard female parts provided anything but dehydrated cheese.
Wait until socialism is fully implemented. wait until Obamacare taxes the hell out of the middle class while the rich remain rich. Take away all of the loopholes, breaks, cuts, tax havens. The best paying jobs will still be provided by the rich man and you will still need that job to be anything but a obama zombie sheep.
Continue the "progressive" movement in total denial and rejoice as the braindead lefty losers run out of my tax dollars and turn on eachother when sh!t hits the fan.
Wrong, a-hole! This was by a lame duck legislature and an even lamer Governor. The people had no say and there was a one million dollar budget piece added just to make sure the people couldn't override this travesty.
Funny isn't it when actual facts are brought into the conversation. Sometime check out the actual statistics of right to work states. Lower wages, increased worker fatilities, lower graduation rates, and the list goes on.
Yes lyaso, I mean exactly what you said, actual emperical evidence as opposed to scripted libtard talking points. Glad were on the same level.
rightwingscrewball...LMFAO. I am reading lyaso post saying you have not got a clue, and you are agreeing with the post.
corybud3325
Well, other than the higher accident rates... which is hysterical BS... And lower graduation rates, which as usual, is predominantly inner city Liberal Welfare Plantation inhabitants (the suburbs are doing FINE). All of those things you mention add up to lower cost services and goods... in other words, competitive companies... and the cost of livng is way lower in right to work states, so we live better on less....
And uh, voters, yes voters elected those Republicans... guess they got tired of the way Liberals had been fleecing them all those years...
DeJay,
Cool story bro.
@Ewent, People are inherently evil the only difference between republicans and democrats is democrats take advantage of people through government and republicans do it through business. Either way no one is looking out for you. Personally I vote republican because morally I agree more with them and because if you give government the money and the gun (law enforcement) the people have nothing and that is when dictatorship and socialism destroy once great nations.
"The one thing we learn from history is that we never learn from history"
The back-handed way this bill was rushed through a lame duck legislature and Republican Governor tells us there is something rotten in Lansing.
There is a silver lining. Once the people of Michigan discover the havoc on wages and benefits caused by this bill, the Republican reign of terror will end for decades. I fully expect the same on a national level after the battles of the fiscal cliff and raising the coming debt limit have been concluded.
The Republicans have forgotten their last 20 year banishment from the White house (1933 to 1953) while Congressional majority was withheld until 1996. These are different times with the very same worn out Republican tactics. Adios and good riddance.
The workers have nothing to do with it...Republicans are reducing union income so it will be easier for them to buy elections...republicans can now get unlimited donations from corporations and crime families, democrats have to rely on millions of small donations and some from the very few and getting fewer unions.
They just want to be sure they can buy all elections in the future and pay no taxes and pay workers slave wages and no benefits.
Republicans really miss slavery.
Actually, if you knew anything about history amazedandalarmed you would know it was the Republicans who were against slavery and actually abolished it.
Actually if you knew anything about history then you would know it was the Republicans who abolished slavery and southern Democrats who were for it.
The problem the state faces, the unions don't wish to face, because it puts the unions at odds with each other. The states have to pass a budget, as do the municipalities and the school districts. They can tax, and as such, there are state income taxes, property taxes, and sales taxes. A portion of the taxes goes to the salary and benefit packages of the state, municipal, and other employees like teachers. These employees are members of what are deemed as public employee unions. All who pay state, property, and sales tax are paying into the costs of public employee union members.
In private industry, their revenues are generated by sales of goods or services. The car style must sell on its own merits, which once it sells, generates sales taxes. The auto industry employees pay state, federal, property tax and sales taxes, and maybe union dues... all on the sale of the product. If the product doesn't sell, it's not like they have the power to tax, so the plant gets shut down. If there are diminished tax revenues, for whatever reason, then there are cuts to public employees. So to a public employee, it's to their advantage to have smaller, more numerous and more diversified labor and industry to guarantee the property and sales taxes revenue base of their salaries. If companies get too small however, there's no justification for labor union involvement. And that's where unions clash. You can't raise the property taxes on the public employees to pay their own salaries and benefit packages, without raising everyone's property tax. If property declines in value due to closed manufacturing, you loose property taxes, sales taxes, and state income taxes.
And this is where right to work pops in. It's intellectually designed for smaller industries of few workers, thus maintaining stability to state tax revenues, property tax revenues, and sales tax revenues. So a public employee union member who is opposed to right to work is either a liar or a fool. On the other hand they have to support the private unions, knowing their own union might be the private sector union's reason for demise. Now they are hypocritical besides. The private sector union needs the property tax revenues to increase, and therefore the wage and benefit demands. but to do so can't be competing against small non union shops... which again means less property tax revenues if they fail. It's a snake eating its own tail, as the head gets bigger, the body shrinks.
Mikey:
How many times do we have to remind you brain dead idiots that civil rights passed by the LBJ admin caused the Southern Dixiecrats to change parties and become the KKKGNOP we know today.
Commonsense: Kinda like Obamacare, huh? "Just pass it...we can find out what's in it later" (Maybe not an exat quote, but spoken by Nancy Pelosi during debates about the healthcare bill). Something's rotten in more places than Lansing...seems to be wherever politicians gather! (You may have noted that I did not mention one party or the other...that is not an oversight!)
Right, Ricky. Pro-union, my azzzz! This is all a part of the Koch Brothers plot to replace our current democratic system with an aristocratic ruling class. Ricky made millions exporting jobs to China, nowe he wants everyone in Michigan to work for serf wages to possibly get some of those jobs back. This is soooo sick on sooooooo many levels.
If the union does what they are supposed to do, then they can collectively bargain for good rates. Nothing has changed... except for the union leadership's "aristocratic ruling class" freedom from accountability to its workers.
Really??? Is the illuminati in on this too??? You silly liberals are the biggest hypocrites on the face of the earth! You all were simply "giddy" when the almighty bho finished buying his re-election bid, and wagged your finger at anyone who didn't agree like a bunch of freaking children. The good people in Michigan participated in the Democratic Process, and elected these people into the offices they are currently holding. Didn't your hero say something to the effect, "Well, I won. So it's my way or the highway!". Silly liberals want their cake, and to eat it too! Hypocrites of the absolutely worst degree.
It never takes nutters long to display their Koch dimentia.
NPCDan, yes those officials were voted in.......but just wait until the next election.....they will then be voted out. Just watch.
It never takes someone without an argument long to go to ad hominem attacks.
Hey Einstein-how many plants do GM, Ford, and Chrysler have overseas? Oh yeah Ricky sent those jobs over there didn't he??
Right on the money big daddy !. In steady of maintaining educational/ living standards here let's lower them to a third worlds economy. The only winners here are corporations and their investors
JC, Unions or no unions. Doesn't matter. Our world is run by something much bigger than our government. Our government does what they are told by an elite group of bankers. (I know it sounds like parinoia...) The goal is to remove the middle class. This in turn creates the "Have's" and the "Have-Not's". I would like to suggest that you, or anyone reading this, read: Creature from Jekyll Island which is non-fiction (by: G.E. Griffin) and Captains and the Kings which is fiction (by: Taylor Caldwell). I used to be a "Rebublican" but now I'm a person that doesn't care much for politics. I do care about how we as people can change our country. Right to work doesn't bother me. What bothers me is how the system we are all part of operates. Think about how daunting it is and what little we really know about it. Think about how nothing is really done for the people by the people. Take care...
And the right were dumbfounded when Romney couldn't buy the election, despite massively outspending the competition.
You won't find anyone of the left admitting that we spend too much, not one. Seems like they think money grows on their green trees. Some day they will wake up when it all gone and the debt is completely unserviceable.
JCnGAM/Union drone,
You mean like union management getting free cadillacs to drive, double/triple dip pensions, and sporting Mr T gold starter kits?
Yeah right. The union is for the little guy.
Unions protected the workers industrial age to what OSHA and many regulation agencies do now. This is the problem I have with an established union at a work site:
- After 30 days you need to join and pay the dues
- Your money at the union automatically goes towards democratic elections regardless of your political affiliation
- You are bullied to believe in what the union preaches. We've all seen this before in high school, they are called clicks...and yes they are bullies
- They use words like corporate greed and rich fat cats to justify your thousands of dollars a year membership, then blame those fat cats when you cant pay for gas, food, etc. They the company goes under (Hostess) because the world is not a union run system and can not compete on a global scale
Only thing that Unions have done:
-increased the pay of every worker today. non-union workers have benefited from union lobbying. unfortunately from the above point, we can no longer compete in this global economy so its starting to nullify the point.
- if you force the 'fat cats' to stop receiving big pay checks, they will leave to profitable companies that do pay and, said point above, the company will fail regardless and you back to square one
JCnGam...It's more than that...It's Republican sore losers who figure if they can put a stop to unions in the auto industry, so much the better to make this president appear the failure. Not that any of us fall for that BS anymore. 4 years and all the GOP has done is sit on their lazy, too well paid asses and bitch.
Stuff an argyle in it already...We're sick of hearing the caterwalling.
If the GOP presses forward with these subtle little CEO "under the table" cut throat games, there won't be a GOP party and whooooooop dee dooo...No more Norquistian Regime, No more Kochery Skankola and no more Tea Party pushy pushies like hounds of hell trying to rip this country apart for daring to re-elect this president. Time for an Ass Kicking Party yet gang? I know just the asses to put up for the first round.
"We must close union offices, confiscate their money, and put their leaders in prison.
We must reduce workers salaries and take away their right to strike.”
Adolf Hitler, May 2, 1933
jcngam
it was clinton that opened trade with china and that led to off-shoring our jobs. If you would do some research you will know better than to talk from msnbcs' and the dems bait and switch tactics. why blame the repubs for taking advantage of rules set by dems by a man that doesn't even know what sex is?
Oh, we're doing quotes now?
"It is impossible to bargain collectively with the government.”
-George Meany Former Predident of the AFL-CIO in 1955
"The process of collective bargaining, as usually understood, cannot be transplanted into the public service,"
- FDR 1937
"Are we having fun yet"
-Jon-998022
Ewent, are you from MI, cause if not, please Shut up. You have no Idea how happy my Union, yes UNION family are that they can choose to pay dues. Are you that scared to compete or need someone to protect you? Please do use a favour...get an education that can go anywhere in the US or the world for this matter. Last I saw there where lineups for Educated workers, and Educated people than those who work 35 years and still complain they are abused. The new Middle Class is highly EDUCATED, than our mothers, and Fathers are. Union Living wages are over, get use to it..This is why people are leaving the state to find work in other regions of the country.
'right-to-work'
Get it ?
Ahh,the wonderful world of the corporate elite in today's America:
Over Two-Thirds Of Corporations Pay No Federal Corporate Income Tax
At a time when the federal government is starved for cash -- and facing layoffs and cuts in services across the board -- more and more corporations are sidestepping their traditional tax rate and keeping millions of dollars for themselves.
The number of U.S. corporations structuring their businesses in such a way that they can avoid higher taxes has skyrocketed in the past quarter century,The Wall Street Journal reports.
In 1986, about 24 percent of corporations were what's known as nontaxable businesses -- meaning the companies themselves pay no federal income taxes -- instead passing on the earnings to individual investors to pay taxes on. By 2008, these businesses accounted for about 69 percent of all corporations, a designation that can save companies hundreds of millions of dollars in a single year
Advocates for the business community have expressed frustration with the country's 35 percentcorporate income tax rate, calling it unreasonably high. In practice, though, it's common for big businesses to pay much less, thanks to a cornucopia of tax-code loopholes and exemptions won by lobbyists.
The issue of corporate tax participation has become especially pressing in recent years, as the country struggles to manage its ballooning deficits. Corporate taxes for non-financial companies have fallen more than 13 percent since 2007, according to Bloomberg. At the same time, the national debt grew to $15.23 trillion from $9.13 trillion -- a number larger than the economy itself.
According to a recent analysis of nearly 300 Fortune 500 companies by the Citizens for Tax Justice, the average company was paying just 18.3 percent in taxes -- a little more than half the official rate. And by using techniques like industry subsidies, stock option packages, and moving assets overseas where they can't be taxed, 30 companies mentioned in the report -- including Wells Fargo, Verizon, Boeing and General Electric -- didn't pay a cent in federal taxes in 2008, 2009 or 2010, the report found.
The phenomenon affects state income taxes as well as federal. Last month, another study from the Center for Tax Justice found that corporate tax avoidance had cost states a combined $42.7 billionbetween 2008 and 2010 -- a period when budget shortfalls forced states to cut spending for health care, public schools and care for the elderly and disabled.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/01/10/corporations-pay-no-tax_n_1196875.html
Yeah, man... goddamn those Democrat CEOs that pay no corporate federal income tax and instead just spend it on getting presidents and congresspersons elected.
Oops, guess that cat's out of the bag. If you were as smart as you say you are you'd have figured out the only way someone gets out of paying taxes is to be rich enough to back a public server all the way to election. You didn't honestly think that us hardworking taxpayers were the ones giving hundreds of millions in donations just so Obama and Romney could campaign while folks like Gary Johnson, Ron Paul, even Rick Santorum and Howard Dean (remember him?) got virtually no air time except on radio shows and webcasts.
Maybe you should stop with this Pro-Union talk and realize that Unions also shell out hundreds of millions in campaign donations as well as run campaign headquarters... for Democrats. Yep, you guessed it, Unions are pro-Democrat because, hey, what better way to control the people by telling them when and where they can work, for how much, and for how long, while milking up a tidy profit from both the worker and the business and the State all at once? And with Unions having waivers from Obamacare, thus permitting them to continue using shoddy healthcare outlets, it's a big mystery why you guys hate Corporations so much. Probably because you're told to, like you're told that anyone who misspells a word on a protest sign or forum post must be so stupid that they shouldn't be allowed to vote.
Let's face it. Moving money overseas is the only way to keep from having it stolen by the thieves in Congress and running Unions. Had your study included all data, it would have mentioned the 1/3rd that DOES pay their taxes are... wait for it.... RUN BY REPUBLICANS!!! EGADS! Not that you'll find that fact mentioned very loudly or proudly by your Democrat owned media. Huffington Post Progressives indeed. Cook the books, muddle the facts, push an agenda YAY!
My God people, Michigan is BROKE. They need jobs, and the more the better. Unions are a pathetic blast from the past, totally not needed. They just protect mediocrity at all cost. This is good for Michigan, not bad.
Nothing gets those republican/teabag taliban drawers in a bigger bind than a middle class American actually making a living wage with some benefits and a safe and secure pension. I swear their neanderthal skulls are impervious to common sense or logic and this is so simple. If you are so against working at a business that has a union don't go work or apply for a job there. Someone else will step in your place in a heartbeat who wants to work for union or has no problem with it. Why is that so hard for you dimwit neocon nazis to understand???? Then you can go apply for a job at walmart and see how that works out for you. You guys really think anybody believes the right wing rhetoric you are spewing about unions that most of the connies posting here really haven't a clue about. This is about the right wing extremists continued redistribution of wealth from the American middle class to the top 2% plain and simple.
Why do republicans continue to be the advocates of the destruction of the middle class??? Isn't it ironic that every one of these gop governors are members of ALEC and were bought and paid for by the likes of the koch brothers and other corporate billionaires?? Isn't it ironic they all signed their allegiance not to Americans but to grover norquist the biggest lobbyist in D.C.????. Isn't ironic that that the koch bros. despise unions, pensions and health care benifits because it take monies out of their bottomless pockets. The like of the koch's and waltons have more money that they'll ever be able to spend in the next 1000 years but believe me it's not enough. It's never enough. It's a debilitating disease called greed and it's not exclusive to the republican party but it's thrives in their environment well.
Oh well, you connies have fun and keep posting your delusions, lies and fear but please don't expect rational thinking Americans to buy a lick of it. But please don't stop because you are just reminding the American majority why agenda was rejected overwhelmingly in the last election. And with you idiots continuing to double down on your nuttiness - there will be plenty more losses for you in 2014.....cheers!!!!!
Yo, Gman, you better watch when you call Republicans "Nazis"! This is a bit of a slam against our fantastic socialist president and liberal government hacks! Just remember that "Nazi" stood for NATIONAL SOCIALISTS! The only socialist that I seem to hear a lot about now is your Dear Leader Obama! Think about it.... Obama forced through Obamacare and the Nazis helped force through national healthcare in Germany! Obama and his ilk bailed out GM and Chrysler so that they could produce his "Green" cars. Hitler nationalized his auto industry so that they could be forced to produce his war machine! Obama hates the 1%ers, who stole their money from the poor and minorities in our country and deserve to have their hard work stolen. I guess even you know that the Jews in Nazi Germany had the same lies spewed about them and they lost everything they had, including their lives. Obama supports the Occupiers who protest and attempt to humiliate everyone who doesn't believe in Obama's "Socialist Paradise"! Hitler had his wonderful Brown Shirts! (Memo to the Occupiers: Research about what happened to the Brown Shirts when they became a political liability!)
Just remember one thing: How many citizens of conservative, democratic countries were slaughtered by their own government? I would say about, none! Think about the hundreds of millions of people killed by the likes of Hitler, Stalin, Mao, etc..... And Socialism and Communism is a good thing?
Dan M dude please get some professional help you need it badly. your embarrassing yourself child
A lot of people are ignorant of history and brainwashed by the corporate media.
If you are a working person, whether you are in a union or not or have never been in one If you are making a good wage w/ benefits now it's because of unions. If you aren't it's because they've lost so much power.
If they lose all their power you probably won't be making a good wage even if you are now.
This is not to say Union Leadership is great.
It is bad and has been getting worse for decades. That's why you have so many union leaders collaborating with employers (and Democrats) to lower their members wages and benefits.
A good example is Bob King, (the son of a former personnel director at Ford Motor Company) of the UAW. He has sold out his union members big time.
It's union leaders like this that are a major reason for the falling power of Unions and progressive politics generally.
Speaking of unions I heard a great story not long ago:
Back when they were first introducing robotics to the car assembly lines some Ford executives were demonstrating the automated assembly to UAW union officials including Walther Ruether.
One of the Ford execs was being smug and sarcastic and said to Ruether: "and not one of these robots has a UAW card"
To which Ruether replied: "Yes, and not one of them will buy a new Ford either".
Too, bad our current crop of Union Leaders are such a bunch of corrupt corporate stooges.
"Right to work" really means right to work for low wages with no benefits.
That's the real world meaning.
Uncle Bob 512
At a time when the governemnt waste money on an epic scale people are starting to get tired of it. What a shocker.
If the world spins it is because of a union. If the world stops spinning it is a republicans fault the unions just got too weak.
I don't need a union to get good pay they had a purpose years ago now they are just in it for more pay and less work. that is a fact.
The only one who should be embarrassed is you. Try presenting an argument with some facts and not result to name calling when you have none. This a common for liberals when they are losing an argument and have no facts to support their side.
Republicans still miss slavery.
Communists have always been able to muster large noisy street mobs.
That idiotic remark isn't even worthy of a response.
"Larry", it was the Republicans that abolished slavery, not the Democrats, who wanted to keep slavery intact. Learn your history before you spout anymore nonsense....
But you did!
If you would read history vs. spouting lies, you would find out that a LARGE number of DEMOCRATS voted against the 13th amendment...while the majority were REPUBLICANS.....and why is this slavery??? It is slavery to force someone to join a union and pay horrendous dues for nothing better than to give money to elected officials and pay union bosses outrageous salaries...go ahead, look it up....you would be shocked at how many union bosses are in the...how would you say it....1%????? put the kool-aid down and go back to your mother's basement...
The Republican party was the party that abolished slavery...the Democrats had to be pushed along kicking and screaming...
NPC Dan said it right, the Repulicans were the ones pushing to abolish slavery not the Dems they want to "Socialize" everything.
PCDan
The Republicans today are not the Republicans of 1865
@Larry 2094469
You conveniently forget that KKK membership was predominantly Democrats... Republicans were too busy building the economy while Democrats tore it, and are tearing it still, DOWN.
NPCDan - Neither your response nor the OP were very thoughtful. You are correct, both the president and Congress ( with a 80% maj.) was Republican. But it is irrelevant anyway since the parties were rather different in those days. They faced different issues and had different motivations.
I can see the good and the bad on both sides of the issue here. I can give the conservatives the benefit of the doubt and say their main motivation was to foster job growth. At the same time, this is going to cause many to be employed at wage rates unsuitable for the jobs being done. This may not really help families as much as they need. Many will likely continue to receive food vouchers and public assistance.
"Republicans miss slavery"...what moron school did you attend? If you call earning up to $58.00++ per hour [with lagacy costs factored in] slavery....then I too, WANT TO BE A SLAVE!!
"this is going to cause many to be employed at wage rates unsuitable for the jobs being done"
As well as put low education, unproductive and unskilled laborers back in the pay bracket the deserve. Nobody deserves to make $45/hr turning bolts on an assembly line.
At current rates, why wouldn't you want to get 50 hours instead of 40? Isn't the economy bad? Aren't all of those "responsible union workers" living within their means and not buying $500 iJUNK to keep appearances? Nobody ever said 40 hours wasn't considered full time or that you wouldn't be paid over time for 40 hours. If your not getting over time after 40 it's because your SALARY and you SIGNED A CONTRACT FOR THAT!
Capitalism won a battle today. Survivle of the fittest and letting skill, work ethic and pride dictate the free market. Worried about being fired? You probably suck at your job and you're not an asset to the company anyways.
And if you knew your history, you'd know that the two parties basically switched position after that, so that the Democrats of that period are the Republicans of today.
Unions protected the workers industrial age to what OSHA and many regulation agencies do now. This is the problem I have with an established union at a work site:
- After 30 days you need to join and pay the dues
- Your money at the union automatically goes towards democratic elections regardless of your political affiliation
- You are bullied to believe in what the union preaches. We've all seen this before in high school, they are called clicks...and yes they are bullies
- They use words like corporate greed and rich fat cats to justify your thousands of dollars a year membership, then blame those fat cats when you cant pay for gas, food, etc. They the company goes under (Hostess) because the world is not a union run system and can not compete on a global scale
Only thing that Unions have done:
-increased the pay of every worker today. non-union workers have benefited from union lobbying. unfortunately from the above point, we can no longer compete in this global economy so its starting to nullify the point.
- if you force the 'fat cats' to stop receiving big pay checks, they will leave to profitable companies that do pay and, said point above, the company will fail regardless and you back to square one
This comment is so ridiculous it doesn't even reach good Strawman status.
The fact that unions fear this law speaks volumes. They know that when their members finally have the ability to leave they will in droves.
Sorry after visiting 2611 food plants and 177 universities in the USA a few over 100 times, I do agree that Republicans (with money, that is, not the ones here on blogs that have no money and only became republican due to brawn/women coltrol or the military) they really do miss slavery, absolutely no question about that----The real Republicans are never on here, they have far more important things to do!
I won't buy a car built in Michigan. As with restaurants who refuse to provide full-time employees health care, I won't eat there for fear of sick employees passing their illnesses on to me. I won't buy a car built in a disgruntled worker's state whose union is being busted by greedy Republicans. Sorry Michigan, you lose along with Papa John's, Red Lobster, Longhorn, and other big corporate restaurant chains that put record profits first over employees. Screw Republicans and their 1950's mentality. We won't go back! Lean Forward!
rplatt-Communists have always been able to muster large noisy street mobs.
I can think of a few more groups as well. One in America in 1776,another in France in 1789, Gandhi in India in the 1930's and 1940's. MLK in the US,and the Orange Revolution in the Ukraine. When you push the people too far,they have a tendency to protest,and many times change the world in the process.
Neither will I - auto companies in Detroit allow workers who drink on the job to keep their jobs. Oh, wait - maybe no longer as of today!!!!!!!
Yeah funny thing about unchecked "Capitalism" rightwingscrewball: It also does nothing to protect perfectly competent, loyal workers from being booted because someone else came along who says they'll work for less. Or for corporate fat-cats to say, cease any matching on worker retirement funds to pay for their own annual bonuses.
We lived in a country without unions and with unchecked capitalism once...it was great for a very, very, VERY small percentage of the population, and just about everyone else was getting a raw deal. It's the reason Unions cropped up in the first place. Or what happens when they've eliminated all the "dead weight" and ONLY have competent, dedicated workers but still want fatter profit margins...who do you think is going to get the shaft then?
Now the pendulum is swinging back the other way, and the fat-cats will pay their pocket-politicians to slowly repeal various worker protection and safety laws in the name of profit and "prosperity" until eventually workers will start rioting en masse yet again when they've become virtual slave labor in unsafe conditions "who should just be grateful they have a job." Wash, rinse, repeat.
The passage of these laws alone is not an entirely horrible thing...but as much as I usually hate the slippery slope arguments, in this case it may very likely hold true. The wealthy are not "job creators" at a level even remotely CLOSE to the amount of money they've made over the last few decades, and this will only help that pattern stay true.
flbikerchick & Bundgaard.
And if you knew your history, you'd know that the two parties basically switched position after that, so that the Democrats of that period are the Republicans of today.
WRONG. I give you an A+ in democrat revisionist history. AN 'F' in Facts.
Here is the actual history.
The Democrats lost their strangle hold on the south when they lost the Civil War. Republicans came form the north to take over and began removing barriers to voting, education, and employment. The Democrats countered the Republican wave by calling them "Carpetbaggers". One by one, the Democrats re-took political control of the south. After taking control they passed the infamous "Jim Crow" laws.
The racism wasn't just with the southern states, the racism was taken to the Federal Level. Before Lincoln Died, he not only removed the "colored only" signs from the White House Restroom doors, but began desegregating the Military and worked on plans to help African Americans assimulate to freedom. Those signs and a segregated military returned with Woodrow Wilson. The Republicans removed the signs after Wilson was out of office but failed to desegregate the armed forces.
Desegregation of the Armed forces finally began in 1944, after FDR relented to a long campaign by Republicans to end it.
Now for 1963. Every protest and every march done by MLK was against Democrats. Every time he was jailed, it was by Democrats. The last time MLK was jailed his father fearing for his son's well being, begged for and got an audience with JFK. Up until that time JFK had held no opinion on civil rights legistlation. Within days of his meeting with JFK came out in support of Civil Rights legislation. It was not until after the 1964 law was passed that African Americans, at the urging of their leadership joined the Democratic part.
Did the opinion of the Democrats really change over night. Not Really. For the first time in history, Instead of looking at African Americans as stupid, lazy and inferior, they saw African Americans as a large and growing voting block that they could buy, just by giving something they asked for.
Here is undeniable proof what the Democrats were up to left to us by LBJ. The reason he pushed for the Great Society is he saw that as a way to get the African American vote for the next 200 years.
http://www.canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/40889
http://www.youtube.com/all_comments?v=MxEauRq1WxQ
They still don't really care about the African Americans, just their votes and support. This 1960's lesson has had even more applications, such as today's war on Women Rights, Gay rights, environmentalism, College kids, and now hispanics.
The practice is to offer them exactly what they want, whether or not they fight for it, but keep giving them incrimental improvements either in reality or at least the appearance of improvement to keep them voting democrat.
As for the now for the 1960's origin of the racists moved to the Republican party. Huge Falsehood.
I dug up a list of all people who changed parties. It took some time, but I looked every one of them up.
This was about 50 Democrat to republican changes. Only one clearly racist Senator who opposed the civil rights legislation in 1964. JUST ONE! The majority of party changes were to run for a Office the democratic leadership had hand picked and so that democrat would not get a shot at that job unless they change parties (Arlene Spector to gain the committee chair for the Judiciary . Kind of like Leiberman failing to get the Democratic nod to run for his seat for his last term. Only a few made the change (like Reagan) because they realized that there party was not what it promotes.
FlBikerchicks quote ....""Larry", it was the Republicans that abolished slavery, not the Democrats, who wanted to keep slavery intact. Learn your history before you spout anymore nonsense"
protesting getting their fiscal house in order???? Michigan is on the brink of bankruptcy...largely because of unions! Now I understand the typical union member IQ isn't very high but come on... at least try to think for yourself. I bet obamacarter sticks his nose in this fight! LOL
Lol! I'm sure he's "enroute" as we speak! Just make sure he doesn't call any focus to the abject failure that was the A123 Systems that raked in many millions of dollars to fund the "green" energy fad. Only to fail miserably, and then get bought out by the Chinese! "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!"
Kellysview... where do you get your information? Michigan has a balanced budget, as a matter of fact, they finished FY2012 with a surplus.
A surplus!!!
LMFAO
how much bailout money and tax payer dollars from OUTSIDE MICHIGAN accomplished that!?!
He already has he was at the Detroit Diesel plant in Redford MI, I believe is where he was at. Talking to the Union members there.
rightwingscrewball... nothing in your post proved my statement was wrong. And to answer your question, the only outside money coming into Michigan went to funding the slimy way that the Repukes did what they did. Come 2014, look for the GOP to become another has-been political party in MI.
Two word people. Unfunded Liability. In regards to private and public pensions, the future unfunded liability problems will make the Dotcom bubble and housing crisis look like minor accounting errors.
This will help Michigan free itself from some of the unrealistic public pensions being doled out right now. It's that or higher taxes to keep paying for union members to retire when they are 50 years old or younger.
Who's up for higher taxes so public union members can retire 15-20 years before you do? Anyone? Anyone? Bueller?
doesn't bother me. I am already stuck dead center in libtardville USA and I'm doing fine. Unlike a needy greedy democrat, I can survive anywhere I go despite legislation and policies that work against my personal success.
The unions are protesting?? Really how does this impact them??? Oh, becuase a worker can then CHOOSE if he wants to be part of a union. Hmm. Unions had their purpose...but now have just become thugs. I cannot even allow myself to buy a car made in a union pland anymore...they voted against the USA in november. Problem is that ALL us badged cars come from union plants.......and I will not buy a forewign badged car even if it IS BUILT in the US.
ben-753482... so you must ride a bike.
ben
so much for the Democratic process, so who is against the USA?
What do you drive then, Ben?
The unions
ben, it has been stated quite eloquently above: If non-union workers and union workers work together for the same company, the union worker has no negotiating power because the company will just run to the non-union worker to get the job done. And trust me, that is something that will drive union workers to violence - I myself was once rewarded for coming into work by having a brick thrown at me by a whiny union jacka$$. I've been to places that have had to hire security guards, put up new walls and doors outfitted with the latest security devices just to keep union and non-union workers separate - for the protection of the non-union workers.
If people are so afraid of their working conditions becoming inhumane, looks like they'll just have to write their state representatives like the rest of us have to. Level playing field - FINALLY.
And in a typical union mentality "Schools in at least three districts were closed because so many teachers and other staff were at the rally.". But if you ask any of those school teachers that are not teaching today what this is about they would say that "its about the children". Right the childrens education that you have put on hold so that you could go protest.
While we can speak out about any issue, today, the people of MI are the only ones I care to hear from. Today, this is our issue. And if I could have been, I'd have been in Lansing, not at home on my computer. We will remember in Nov.-every Nov. Six percent of the people were the only ones in one poll that were in favor of this bill. There were plently that voted against putting it in the constitution, but they weren't for this outcome either. Two years pass very quickly, hope Snyder and that batch of his little followers saved their moving boxes. So much cheaper that way, and we all know how they like to save money, well, except when it benefits them!!
Carol,
I heard this 6% number passed around. Which poll was this? I find this statistically hard to believe. Have you been watching big head Ed?
That is where I heard it, but would you have believed it more if it had been out of loudmouth Rush's mouth? I live here, I really think the 6% isn't too far off the mark. Any benefit that a worker enjoys didn't just fall from the sky, 40 hr. week, overtime, safety, health and pension bennies, etc. THANK A UNION. The corp. didn't just hand them over. Watch Men Who Built America and you will be even more thankful for workers rights gained from union workers. If one listens to some, one would think all evil people are union members and all non-union folks are saints. Neither is true. But I'm from a union home when young and a union home now. And damned proud of it!
They should simply fire those teachers and replace them with new ones who actually want the job. Hey, maybe with Michigan's new law, they could actually do that!
Carol, I live here also and 6% simply doesn't make sense. Anyhow, I'm glad you're proud of the Unions and if they can produce better and more competitive workers then I think you have nothing to worry about. I'm certain there are non-union workers that are just as proud. By the way, I don't listen to Rush. I do surf between Fox, CNN, BBC and MSNBC. Big head Ed is a term of endearment:)
Glad to hear that you're not dissing Ed. He talks straight talk, IMO. I think the people of Michigan are going to see more than this issue as a thorn in their side when it comes to this Snyder and his little gang of followers. We turned down Dick DeVos just to get his puppet. We will remember every November, what just happened, and HOW it happened. It was as much the way they did their dirty little deed as anything that makes their power-hunger suspect. No debate, no hearings, no compromise. SHAME on them, and then we will vote!!
What the headline should have said
Millions didn't protest.
I adore basking in the sunhine in the "right to work" sunshine state.....
I'm with you there panhandle!
So does Walmart, wages are cheap and profits are subsidized by the taxpayer picking up the tab for foodstamps. Whats not to love?
"So does Walmart, wages are cheap and profits are subsidized by the taxpayer picking up the tab for foodstamps. Whats not to love?"
You can thank the democrats for that one too.
That's what happens when you are an unskilled & and uneducated. Dropping out of high school will get you the low labor jobs. You shouldn't be rewarded because you choose not to learn.
Stupid decisions should have consequences... I believe the correct answer is: "would you like fries with that?"
Al-524682,
But someone has to do that job, correct? And that someone needs a place to live, food to eat and clothes to wear to that job. Where is that person going to come from that can take the job at wages too low to provide those necessities?
They call it China.
How many of these protesters are out of town union goons?
OR paid professional protestors!
Probably less than the number of Republican legislators being paid off by Dick Devoss. Synder lost my vote next time around if he dares to run!
Thats OK doggie, he just got mine for this. Still back to EVEN.
Niki-440757
How many of these protesters are out of town union goons?
I don't know let's ask Hannity, or Limbaugh, or some of those other right wing union buffoons over at fox.
OK, goons coffe break is over, back on your heads.
you right wing brietbart bloggers just crack me up. so your fine having your tax dollars going towards paying for food stamps for walmart workers because their wages are below the poverty level????? you children are comical.....................
Look at all them uneducated bums...what a sight.
When was the last time you saw a well educated person doing hard labor? If everyone had a B.A. then only having a B.A. would mean you are an uneducated bum.
People of all IQ's need a way to make an income. Or we could send them all to the same countries we sent their jobs.
It's sound to me that you need an education on being a caring human being.
ignorance at its best.
"People of all IQ's need a way to make an income. Or we could send them all to the same countries we sent their jobs."
They also need a way to live within their means and stop pawning over fancy things they want but don't NEED. You NEED food, you NEED water, you DON'T NEED an iPAD you DON'T NEED a 490 hp dodge charger. You WANT to be paid higher for providing less but I NEED to pay you less so I can afford somebody who offers more.
Deal with it. If you're stupid, it's your problem.
"The world needs ditch diggers to Danny"
Judge Smails - Caddyshack
Well, you may be more right than you think, there Jon. I know a young man who graduated H. S. and became a handyman at a local exclusive summer home development. He gets $15.00 an hour and this is his job before he gets other training. Someday, there will be those who have a trade, i.e. electrician, plumber, equipment operator, builders, etc. and they will then show all the rest what demanding big money is all about. Yes, it's here now, but it's only going to get worse for those who can't. It's called poetic justice!! I hope I live to see it all, mine know how, too bad for those who don't! And it's too.
Carol 500283,
You just put it all into perspective. It seems that America has forgotten who it is that fixes there Volvo, installs their cable, builds there Million Dollar homes or builds the roads they drive or puts in place the infrastructure so they can live in their fancy neighborhoods and Condos! It is the TRADE WORKERS!
I was an Air Force Reserve Recruiter for 8 years before I retired and the current Career Fields that the Air Force Reserve needed to fill was in the "Red Horse" Squadron which was a 100% self contained Combat Construction Unit (just like the Sea Bees). I could not fill these positions! Parents were telling their kids that was beneath them to learn a trade. They would come in demanding Computer Programming Jobs or Medical Jobs. None of which was needed as the Active Duty took care of that. I can tell you that one young man jumped at the opportunity to be in the Red Horse and now works for himself making as much as many Corporate Executives. If you saw him on the street you would think he was some uneducated bum as he drives a 4 Wheel Drive Pickup that is almost as old as he is and always has dirt on his pants or shoes. He jjust laughs all the way to the bank.
The time is coming and all these people who look down on the Trades will wish they had learned some of the mechanical abilities!
Navy: "them" uneducated bums??? Is that the classic kettle and pot analogy??? And Air Force guy, thanks, I've worked in schools for over 20 years, I see this too. And our counselors tell our kids this. The guy next door is in the Reserves, he can't pound a nail. My retired husband has to fix all their simplest household problems. What in the world?? My daughter knows more about these things than he does. But we will be finally praised someday, about time.
This was not voted on and is against the will of the people of Michigan. It was snuck in the back door under the influence of lobbyist and special interests like Grover Norquist and the Koch brothers. Nobody will pay the dues, because workers look at the short term, it is human nature. They forget the the union is responsible for their high wages and benefits.Would you voluntarily pay taxes? Once the union is defunded wages and benefits will be cut. Count on it.
So workers have to be forced into the unions because they are stupid? Come on, you sound like a pimp talking about why the ho has to give him the money, because she can't think for herself.
" It was snuck in the back door under the influence of lobbyist and special interests..." Are you sure you're not talking about Obamacare??? Seems to me he used the exact same tactics to "pass a bill before we find out what's in it!" (Thank you Madame Pelosi, for your sheer idiocy...). And just FYI, if you don't voluntarily pay taxes, the IRS will come knocking! Your hypocracy knows no bounds...
Everything Gov. Snyder does if for his rich croney business buddies. We as citizens, consumers and workers have systematically lost jobs, wages, even fair consumer laws since he took office. This is just another example of how he will kill the workers and make more money for himself and his buddies. I agree that once the dues stop flowing in the unions will close up and the wages will drop like a lead balloon. God save Michigan.
National health insurance had and has majority public support. What became law was a compromise because of republican obstructionism. 93% of the state of Michigan opposes RTW. You may have to stretch your brain a little but I proposed a hypothetical situation about paying taxes.
Save....I once worked for a company who did contract work at a facility...the facility was talking strike and your union brotherhood pulled me aside and threatened me with physical bodily harm if I crossed the picket lines....and when I told them I would defend myself, they threatened to go after my wife and 12 yr old daughter....now tell me why I should have any sympathy for a union????
That sounds like bad union leadership. It is not the norm sorry you had such a problem. I personally am not in a union but I value and support them and the workers.
KJB, you will see more of that in the near future. Desperate people grab at straws and unions are about to become REALLY desperate.
I think you need to site some sources and show some facts. You are way off base with nothing to support your ranting. Over 50% of people still want Obamacare repealed. You haven't been following the polls.
Save, you are WAY off on your numbers. I know its not 93% of us that do NOT want it I would have to say its more like 93% of us here in MI want this law to go through. We should NOT be held over a barrel to JOIN THE UNION if they are not giving us what we need or what is best for the company that we work for.
Look at Hostess. If not for the bakers union they would still be in business and there would be 18,000 people working still. So for the 3000 people that felt they could NOT work for just a measly 18% raise they basically got 18000 people canned. Yes those IGNORANT union people need more money. Like they need another HOLE IN THERE HEADS.
You're absolutely right. It was snuck through a back door. The republicans attached an appropriation to the bill. See under Michigan law, if the only issues where the collective bargaining ruckus, then it could be challenged by a ballot measure and/or forced to be a public referendum.
BUT by attaching an appropriation to the bill, it became an appropriations bill which under Michigan law is not subject to public referendums.
Ergo, rather than take the measure to the people of Michigan and let them choose as is their democratic right, the republicans use legalize to prevent the voice of the public from being heard.
What are the Republicans afraid of? Only 17% of Michigan workers even belong to a union in a first place. It should pass in a landslide, you would think. Or would it? At least then it would be by popular vote, and the voices of the public could be heard.
Otherwise this is nothing more than tyranny.
Also, Michigan already has a law on the books that lets people opt out of union dues, if they have not benefited from better pay and benefits that the union has bargained for. IF they benefit from the collective bargaining they they are required to join. It's called a free rider problem. With this bill the unions are not protected from that free rider problem.
I don't see how giving the people the right to choose whether or not to give their money to unions is a problem. Freedom is the key word here. Now the unions have to sell the people on what they can do for them instead of having a captive audience forced to pay into a system they may not want.
I love how steve uses "ignorant" and "there heads" in the same sentence. And Hostess' problem started with the 300% raise the CEO provided himself before telling the rest of the workers an increase in wages was not an option.
All this blabbing about how the middle class will die and calling this nothing but a bunch of no nothing Republican Union Busters out to screw every one in a Union. GET THE F$%*K OVER YOURSELF PEOPLE!!! This Legislation DOES NOT PREVENT PEOPLE FROM FORMING A UNION OR BEING IN A UNION! IT SIMPLY LIMITS THE UNIONS AND MAKES IT ILLEGAL TO REQUIRE SOMEONE TO JOIN A UNION TO BE EMPLOYED!
I live in a Right to Work State and our State is scooping up all the Corporations that are tired of being gouged by the Union! Yes, workers pay is about $300 less than that of a Union Worker however they are now gainfully employed and off the Unemployment Checks, Welfare and Food Stamps. Now hold on before you start calling me names and say I am predjudiced agains people on Welfare. I am simply stating that most Americans that lost their jobs in the recession would rather be working than on the dole!
Let's see BMW is here and NON UNION, Boeing is here and Non-Union and all of the Vendors who make parts for these Companies are also building here by leaps and bounds! Amazon just built 2 huge distribution facilities here as well! Once again Non Union! Get the picture folks Unions have out lived their usefulness! You people sit there and scream because Michigan is now a Right to Work State have forgotten what the UAW did to Detroit! They effectively killed the Auto Industry! Every time you turned around they were on strike wanting higher wages all the while their wages did not match the quality they were turning out! The vehicles were pricey and crap and America had enough! Don't blame the Japanese and Koreans they simply filled a void and since then have moved to the US into ... yep RIGHT TO WORK STATES! Employees have great benefits and good salaries! Obviously you guys don't want your unemployment to drop. Apparently you are just fat, dumb and happy drawing the Unemployment Check and still paying those Union dues while no jobs are coming to your state.
So cry foul and scream your threats of the "THE VOTERS WILL REMEMBER THIS!" Vote them out if you feel that you must but understand this Michigan is now a RIGHT TO WORK STATE and there is not a damn thing you can do about it but except it. If you want to be in a Union nothing is stoping you. Just don't force people who don't want to be in the Union to do so!
One other thing about Unions that people don't realize is they will not under any circumstances allow Non Union workers to invade their territory! Case in point...Hurricane Sandy devistates New Jersey and New York both states are HUGE UNION SHOPS for their Electrical Wokers and Companies. Several states sent workers and trucks to New Jersey to help restore power but were promptly told to get the hell out because New Jeresey is a Union Shop and unless you are carrying a Union Card you are not welcome. They relief workers tried to reason with them but they refused saying Union Shops only allowed here! This is not some made up story I have actually spoken to Duke Power Lineman that were sent to New Jersey to help and had to turn right back around and come home. If you think it took too long to get relief to you then blame your local Union Shops they ran everyone off!
Thank You USAF Retired.... I can't agree with you more.
This is our corporate controlled government trying to turn us into slave labor just as they abuse currently in China. No right to collective bargaining.
I see a lot of Fox news speak in these posts, the new face of global fascism. If you find yourself repeating something you heard on Fox news consider This: there is an absolute and direct comparison between Joseph Goebbels and Rupert Murdoch. Look it up if you dare.
I didn't realize that we were making fun of someone because of where they get their news. I could maybe see if it was from the onion, but grow up. Fox is biased, MSN is biased. I thought this was the great melting pot.
Ben......All I see spewing from your posts are Bill Maher and Jon Stewart communist rhetoric
bohnmann I'm not making fun of anybody I'm deadly serious. Fox news and Joseph Goebbels aren't exact in direct comparison and if you were educated in history you would spot this easily.
And what about the comparison to say, the almighty bho and Karl Marx? Not much of a difference there either, they are both fervent socialists, anti-capitalism, and puppets for their handlers. Your comparisons are ridiculous at best, and extremely disturbing at worst.
So now Fox news and Goebbels aren't a comparison? What?
My point is making fun of someone because of the news station they watch is immature. And for the record, I don't have fox news on my TV. No cable TV.
If we were educated in history we would know the difference between Fox News and Joseph Gobbles....
Must be a libtard thing because I thought history was more relevant to things like the american or french revolution or the pioneers or the native americans or hell, even the jews of jerusalem or the people crossing from russia to the north american continent while the ice caps were still frozen...
What has our union controlled, liberal school system lowered itself to?
This is Wisconsin all over again, demonstrate all you want, it will do you no good!
Yes it is similar to WI and while I have now voted for Obama twice I also voted twice for Walker. I am sorry they also did this to the private sector because there are enough other states that businesses can go to but not to public employee unions. I am a tax payer, I had kids in public schools and while there were some incredible teachers that should be paid more, there were some of the most incompentant people also working. In 8th grade my daughter had a teacher who periodically had nervous breakdowns in class. She would not meet with parents without her union rep. Kind of like priests she was just sent from school to school when it got to hot for her. The greed of the republicans elected Obama and the republicans will not be able to elect a president again, unless the democrats act the same way. The Republicans being with the Christian Taliban and the Teaparty/Klan lost the election and if the Dems become the party of the unions they will throw away the advantage they now have. Do you not read? Unfunded pension liabilities are bankrupting cities, counties and states. What part of "there is NO more money" don't you understand.
If Unions are as useful and good as they claim to be...why are they worried about this law? HMMM
Because it takes away their leverage. They can no longer hold their employers for ransom with walkouts. They have the right to walk out ....and the employer has the right to hire someone else. GOOD !
Actually whynot, that is a very good point.
This is why Unions in Government should be outlawed. The people being held for ransom are the taxpayers. This "right to work" gives the Government back to the people and takes it away from the mob.
Get back to work you bunch of thugs ......There are tons of American people out there that don't have jobs .......and you want to stand in the streets in protest. The collective union system an antiquated. We have organizations like OSHA and The Department of Labor.....Stop acting as if you're looking out for the working class people .....You're are greedy leaches.
what branch of the Nazi party did you say you are with?
LOL fools on parade.
Ben .....that is horse sh!t ........ These labor unions have way overstepped their bounds over the last few decades. A good idea at first .....but just like everything else, people get greedy and try to protect their own interest . Their entire idea of having some collective work force is over......and they did it to themselves.
Ben....no different than the Bolshevik branch you belong to.
PValdes why is it no surprise to me that you're from Florida. one of the most racist states in the union. No I'm not a teacher I'm a successful business owner. I grew up in Florida but moved away because there were so many racist idiots. here in California we treat each other with respect. you should try and get an education and stop watching Fox news. do you even know who Joseph Gobbels was? read up my uneducated friend.
"Ben", keep on telling the same lies over, and over again, and perhaps some idiot will believe you...Is that what you're referring to?
PValdes I must say I am surprised that you use the picture, or I should say abuse the picture, of the great Lakota chief sitting bull. he was a man of clear upstanding integrity who supported his people's rights. You seem to be none of these things.
Is that right Ben ......What right is it of your to force ME to join your GANG so that I can get a job. You and your little mafia can get bent .......The UNIONS have not a leg to stand on when it comes to rights .....
Ben......Now that's ironic. I was was born and lived in California for many years...but not anymore!!! It use to be the Golden State, but now has the second highest unemployment rate in the country, the highest debt of any state and it's economy was the worlds 6th largest (now it's 9th) Sacramento doesn't get it. Neighboring states are still picking off and getting California companies to relocate.
BTW.......California also has it's share of racists.
PValdes,
You are contradicting yourself. People standing together to protest are only concerned about their own personal intrests? Get a clue.
It isn't "force ME to join your GANG so that I can get a job" (Me, and I convey that you are only thinking of yourself).
It is stand with me, so that together we send a collective message to Management that we stand together for our rights.
Lee ...My statements are not a contradiction. We are a country of individuals ....with individual rights and liberties. If I do not wish to join a union ....my employment with said company or organization should not be contingent on doing so. They are protesting because the are afraid of losing the grip they have ....nothing more ...nothing less
You moved from a state with no state income tax to a state with the highest state income tax.... I don't call the smart... You aren't on welfare are you? California is a high paying welfare state.
Yes Ben that is so respectful you calling PValdes names like that.
Trilliondollar - I, too, am a former CA resident. I was born and raised there, and I can vouch for the amount of racism. It was deplorable. I have lived in VA for the past 13 years and I can certainly say that while there is racism, I've encountered dramatically less than when I lived in CA. The economy is also much better here than in CA, and cost of living is much more affordable... oh... and by the way... we're a right to work state. I agree that giving employees the option of joining a union or not is the right way to go. The union will survive if they are doing their intended job properly, otherwise, they will trickle out. When I was hired where I work now, my salary was agreed upon before I accepted the job, I signed a contract stating that myself and the company had the right to terminate employment at any time, and that evaluations would be conducted semi-annually and raises/promotions would be based off of performance. I have to say, while I wish I did make more money, I do have adequate compensation for the job description/qualifications required of my position. Sorry, but fast food workers (i.e. the burger flippers) do not deserve, nor need higher compensation than minimum wage. If they want higher pay, than work full time, and go back to school. I currently work full time, go to school full time, and still ensure I volunteer within my community. You have to give back in order to receive (and I don't necessarily mean monetarily). BRAVO for compensation/promotion based on MERIT!
Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding... Look, an idiot Liberal with pathetic argument plays the race card!!!!! How utterly predictable!!! And we didn't even have to make fun of the brainless Affirmative Action President!!!
"And we didn't even have to make fun of the brainless Affirmative Action President!!!"
always throw it in for good measure, just in case.
@PValdes
You said it very well and your 100% correct. I would go as far as calling it workplace discrimination. If the shoe fits.... Also unions are a big problem in that state many are very much like a Mafia. These Unions have no business in public sector. Unions controlling the public sector is downright unconstitutional because it takes the control over the government from the citizens and those who the citizens elected and places it in the hands of the Union. This is why bad cops who are a real problem do not get fired. Government needs more accountability and removing the Unions grip on local governments is the first step. This law in all will greatly increase the economy of Michigan and accountability of local and state government. god knows they need it.
love to see this, the days of BIG unions and their thugs are coming to an end. these bastards are no different from the mobs of the past who "taxed" business just for being in the neighborhood.
we have state and federal laws protecting the workers of today, these unions of today is all about money. union greed has been shutting down productions companies in america for way too long and its time to stop.
those who have no education in history should hold their comments until up to speed. Look up the triangle shirt waist fire New York City. Look up Matawan the mining community and the murderer by federal troops of almost the entire community. This is what you get without unions. First the unions, then the labor laws, and then slavery, it's all being undermined by our corporate controlled government.
You mean like Hostess? The union really did a fat lot of good there.
Ben....You better keep one eye open while you sleep or the boogie man will get you.
This is no longer Upton Sinclairs "The Jungle" anymore fool. As "againstthegrains" succinctly stated, there are federal agencies to look after the worker now, and the very concept of "unions" has run it's course in America. Maybe you should move to China, and try to start some union activity there. See where that gets you...
...hahaha...where's Oblowme now?...he's like a honey badger...he don't give a sit about you...
WOW now there is an intellectual response. third-grade graduate?
Ben .....you scared ? You work in Detroit ? Are you a teacher ?
PValdes.....Ben couldn't teach his way out of a paper bag
@trillion- yeah....what was I thinking ?
PValdes it no surprise to me that you're from Florida. one of the most racist states in the union. No I'm not a teacher I'm a successful business owner. I grew up in Florida but moved away because there were so many racist idiots. here in California we treat each other with respect. you should try and get an education and stop watching Fox news. do you even know who Joseph Gobbels was? read up my uneducated friend.
Wow ....triple post Ben ....Nice job buddy
Why is it that people immediately say that conservatives watch Fox news when they are commenting on this site. Are they simply stupid? This site is totally liberal. conservatives simply are researching both sides of the issue. I personally only read liberal media but I'm a conservative. The media just makes me more conservative, because half of the arguments are commonsense and liberals I hate to say just don't have it. I'm not ignorant either. I've been educated probably more than most people on here. I can definitely think for myself. I studied Middle East Studies/ Arabic, Business, and Environmental Science. I think I have my bases covered. Politics, Science, and Business/Economics.
Ben is now name calling. He can't show an intelligent argument. This is the last ditch effort of a liberal. Call names when the facts don't back you. Look what is going on with the protesters. They are out distorting property and threatening violence. Why would anyone want to support people acting like thugs. The democrats keep bragging about their guy winning the White House and that Republicans should quit whining. The Republicans won a lot at state levels, so Democrats need to quit whining.
Ben is not a liberal, nor is he a business owner, he lives in his mothers basement and he is in his mid 40s. He has never been a union member because he really hasn't ever had a steady job. He also surfs the internet all fo the time and that is what he considers being well read.
Dan is looking in the mirror again. I think I heard your Mom calling you - must be dinner time, then off to bed with you.
Is there any state that is a bigger sh*thole than Michigan.....seriously, the state needs a good flush!
I would guess Cleveland or Chicago would be next on the list ....
PValdes why is it no surprise to me that you're from Florida. one of the most racist states in the union. No I'm not a teacher I'm a successful business owner. I grew up in Florida but moved away because there were so many racist idiots. here in California we treat each other with respect. you should try and get an education and stop watching Fox news. do you even know who Joseph Gobbels was? read up my uneducated friend.
So ....had to post twice to get your point across. Just like a liberal repeating the same ole crap. Like a scratched record. Have fun over there in Cali.......with any luck.....You guys will succeed and do us all a favor.
how many times are you going to copy and paste the same exact thing there Ben?
Your cue cards on what to right on the forums today all used up?
All states should have the Right TO Work Law.
We do here in FL ......and we have high unemployment .....but at least we don't have a bunch of a$$holes forcing us to join their little gang......at a cost I might ad
PValdes why is it no surprise to me that you're from Florida. one of the most racist states in the union. No I'm not a teacher I'm a successful business owner. I grew up in Florida but moved away because there were so many racist idiots. here in California we treat each other with respect. you should try and get an education and stop watching Fox news. do you even know who Joseph Gobbels was? read up my uneducated friend.
"Florida. One of the most racist states in the union " Really? Why am I NOT surprised you live in CA. Besides .....who said anything about race you douchebag ? ....What a cop out.
Well, at least it's reassuring that "ben" knows how to copy and paste. Pretty much the m.o. of any silly, deluded liberal...
PValdes, Im from Florida as well.....please tell me how right to work has helped our state? It hasnt. The only thing it has helped do is grow the foodstamp line with workers who cant find a job paying more than minimum wage. Even middle age adults are trying to get jobs at McDonalds because it pays more than the average job here. There is no healthcare to speak of down here. Right to work has done nothing more than keep our workers wages low.
Tammy....wages are low because the economy sucks. The last thing we need is the Government or a bunch of people trying squeeze companies/employers . The economy gets better ....wages go up. That is just this country works.
For those of you who are saying it is hard to fire anybody without proper documentation etc. Thats a crock, most companies can come up with any excuse to lose a higher paid employee then turn around and hire a younger new less money making employee. It just happened to my mom. She worked at Bank One/Chase/JP Morgan for over 35 yrs, she was a year and a half from retirement and they just let her go, said they were eliminating her position. It was a lie, some new girl has taken over all her accounts. My mother just got paid more and had accumulated benefits so it was cheaper to get rid of her.
Just keep taking any power that the workers have, it's already happening, no more working class, WORKING CLASS = POOR. No fair wages, no fair laws, less benefits. I don't get the support for all this, they want to take away decent wages & benefits, and also want to take away any programs that help anyone. WHAT the hell, I guess you gotta be a professional something to survive in this country now. If you want to work construction, factory or any other blue collar job you don't deserve success because your union just handed it to you, right? Thats the argument.
I've seen the right to work states, watching Mexicanos making $8-$12 dollars an hour in construction, no benefits, doing less than quality work, theres are new GOP Amerca. Oh yeah, where are these successful states posters are speaking off? As far as I can tell they are all in deep financial trouble just like the rest of them,with the higher unemployment rates, higher illegal alien problems.
Just glad the GOP is showing their true colors, they are going to be crushed in future elections, they already have lost most minoritys, anyone who is not straight or religious, and now they will lose atleast 15% of the support of whites.
By the way, I am not union, I am a professional that works with people from all walks of life. It just scares me that some people can actually think that taking away rights from the workers and giving them to the govt. is in any way a good idea. I love they call it "Right to "Work" like somehow now they're going to be a bunch of people that were denied employment before that now have new opportunities, HA HA HA people are idiots.
The more people make, the more it cost to produce products. You you raise everyones pay, then the cost of products go up and negate the raise. It is an endless cycle.
First, why aren't all these protesters at their jobs instead of spending all day on the capitol steps? Are they unemployed and blaming this barely passed law for their unemployment? Or are they union lackeys being paid by the unions to represent their interests?
Second, what those opposed to this don't seem to get is this isn't undoing the unions or blocking their bargaining rights. All it says is you have a choice to join the union and aren't forced to join against your will and to pay dues against your better judgment. How dare we give people a choice! I think unions have their purpose and should be allowed to form, but on the same side people should be able to decide whether they want to be part of that or not.
Third, historically, right to work states tend to have better economies and better opportunities for workers.
But those beholden the unions don't want to hear or accept that.
@DZEEMAE: I live in a "right to work" state and you are so right. I am ashamed to admit that we have nothing to compare to the quality of life(er...blight) found in present day Detroit. We don't even come close to having the beauty of Bellevue Ave or the family friendly entertainment of Hastings Street. Yes, the union goons and those who support them can be so proud of the results of their labors. Detroit is their shining example. The inferior quality of construction in our "right to work" neighborhoods, shopping, entertainment venues, and schools has resulted in such a degraded quality of life that we must go to Detroit for our vacations and get aways to see how the better half live.
PValdes at 23.6:
Haven't you heard? Companies are having record profits. They aren't hiring because there's no demand for their products because people don't have excess cash to spend. That's how it works. People spend money, companies hire to fill the demand.
Don't tell me you STILL believe in that trickle down krap. What ever happened to noblesse oblige? You know - the obligation of honorable, generous, and responsible behavior associated with high rank or birth. If the job creators don't provide than govt must, so you can't have low wages and low taxes at the same time. Unless you want beggars in the streets and soup kitchens - again.
I'm 70 years old and have worked for both union and open-shop companies for 45 years. Unions had a grand purpose, no argument there, but in the 1960's they turned stupid and cocky. Union members were actually "afraid" to say anything, or to take a stand, for fear of being attacked by union goons. Large construction projects were often the worst hit by union waste. Out of a crew of 35 trades people, you had to include the cost of 5 of them doing nothing....absolutely nothing. They'd sleep in their cars all day, or hide behind large pieces of equipment and read magazines. But, they still received a "40 hour" payroll check....because the union said you had to pay them. The honest union worker was burdened by these bums that did nothing, while the union closed it's eyes, but opened it's wallet for union dues. The unions have been hurting their own people. Oh, and lets not forget the job foreman that expected you to pay him under the table before his people would actually do good work. The Michigan Teachers Union is no different. Probably the highest paid with the largest benefits in the country, when education in Michigan is a failure. So, lets give the teachers MORE and pay them MORE ...... NOT !!
Dzeemae, So you want everyone to be forced to join a group that they do not want to? Why stop there. Why not force everyone to join the Democratic Party and pay to do so? Why not force everyone to Buy a BM car and pay a monthy fee for the right to do so?
The Reason is simple We are susposed to be free to choose where we want to work, and apply for a job thiere. We are not choosing to work for the Union, but for the company, as it is the Company that pays us not the union to work there. To extort money from workers that do not want to be extroted from should be illegal. In "Right to Work" states it is. It is bad enough that we have to pay for Social Security and have no say in it, and Now Obamacare is manitory with no choice. You may like living in a county that takes away your freedoms, but I do not.
Unions are fine for below average workers. Myself, I'd rather negotiate my own pay. (Which is always above average. Because I always make sure to do above average work.)
If you want better pay and benefits, become an asset that the company wants to keep. Not "just another employee". Don't sit around being useless, waiting for the union to improve your situation. Take some initiative, and improve it yourself.
Unions are full of over paid bums, and they destroy our companies competitive edge, driving jobs over seas.
You are 100% correct on all points. Today's labor laws have replace what the Unions used to do. Ask the steel workers what the union did for them. Ask the auto industry what the union did to them. And ask the 18,000+ people who lost their jobs at Hostess what the union did for them. Nothing, nothing and nothing.
cathepat: fist as for Hostess, the union was not the problem greedy CEO's an mismanagement was the problem. The workers had made concessions over and over and gone without pay raises for over 5 years. Each time the CEO's claimed poor and took big bonuses. Nice try. Yes, please ask an auto worker about the unions...please do. Please ask about subpay when they get laid off. Ask about unemployment benefits when they are wrongly denied.
Perhaps you would be better served to speak to some union workers rather than listening to union busting talking points.
Hostess workers are still unemployed... The union screwed the non union workers who wanted thier job.
Al, Hostess has many buyers and trust me a company will buy them out. The workers voted on what the union did because they had enough. It wasnt the union that made the decision to walk, it was the workers. I worked for Merritta/Hostess and saw the mismanagement first hand. I walked a long time ago. Those workers are banking on the company being bought out and .....they are right.
AL: But the executives still got their BONUSes!!!!!!!!!!
Nobody needs unions anymore. We have labor laws in place. We have never been a union state and we have had no problems here and our state and the people in it are thriving. Those that are protected by union here do not make anymore money than those who are not, in fact, union makes less.
I am not going to argue that there are no bad unions, for there are. But the one thing that unions do is protect the American worker. There are many people that have short memories as to what it used to be like working in this country before there were unions. It wasn't all that long ago. And you are sadly mistaken if you think that most companies would not resort back to those ways if given the chance. There are more good unions out there than bad ones. I guess my only question would be: If people are not going to be required to join a union, then why should a union be required to represent them. I am all for the freeloaders of this world to see where they are when they need union representation.
What about the fact that when you go to any job, that if it was about being fair and por-worker then why don't they ask you upon employment if you want to lion a union in all jobs? But they don't then why is this their playing point in pushing this through. This is not for the worker but for the employer because it give them more power on the wages, how they treat you and how they fire you. You can be the best worker and still not be liked for whatever reason by either management, personnel and co-workers. and what they say about you goes and you are viewed by that perception and denied promotions because you do not want to particpate in office gossip. I really wish this was really for the workers but it's not. I believe they should have asked the workers in those states how do they feel about the Right to Work legislation in their state.And then and only then would we get the true view of how it is working. Michigan does not need this law. The Govenor Rick Snyder is just being vindictive because as he said and I quote "he asked them not to collect sigantures for the collective Bargaining and they did it anyway, So I am going to have to sign it." What kind of malarky is that? But he claims he is going to do it for the worker but really it's pay back to union boss Bob King. Who needs an vincictive Govenor? Not Michigan. See id former Govenor William Milliken came run again. He seems to be the only former Govenor of reason. And he is truly for the people. Wake up Michigan. It's not what they are telling you it is. You will be all protesting to get him out of office.
UAW - U Ain't Working! Need I say more!
What a dumbass you are. Ill go to work in the morning an ask the boss if I can work 80 hours a week an im willing to give 100 percent...... In the real world companies cut hours on the lower half but not in the corporate level.. union workers are just lazy people who use the union to get more money than they deserve an save their jobs when they get caught stealing or goofing off., I never buy anything from a union company.....
Afrobro - Tell that to the Hostess workers that are now all unemployed, because the bakers didn't want to bargin. 18,000 are now unemployeed, How did the Union save those jobs? Unions prtect the freeloader as long as they are a member. I agree the union should not have to represent the non worker in negoations., but then the Union worker will be compeating against the non union worker, so the non union worker will have the edge, since they will pocket more of thier hard earned money, and the business will have one less middle (job steward) man to deal with.
I'm a union guy. I'm not necessarily against this policy, though it truly political (i.e., union-busting) ... but what burns me is what justification do they give for exempting police and firefighters, who are generally paid by the public coffers?
From LA Times(Oct. 1985 emphasis mine) concerning Honda plant in Marysville Ohio: "UAW leaders said they formally notified the company Thursday of plans to call a union election and OFFERED the auto maker the CHANCE to unilaterally RECOGNIZE the UAW as the bargaining agent for its Ohio workers." Fortunately the media in the 1980's weren't as FORWARD thinking as today and you can sense the thugish, mafia like actions of the unions in the story. Luckily the plant is still non-union and as we all know Honda beats the pants off of Detroit in customer satisfaction, reliability and performance
That true because of good management and little else. How poorly can a car be made? As poorly as management allows.
Yash. That is a pretty stupid statement! You must be Auto Union Worker.
Employee of the union themselves do not have to be union members in fact a union is normally not unionized.
Why should a non union worker not received the same benifits as a union worker. Most of GM salaried worker are not unionized and almost always got a equal benifit increase when the union did. Should they be required to pay union dues?
Federal employees have a union but it is worthless unless you going to be fired for cause. The union tries to help you avoid being fired for your actions .
Maybe a person does not join the union for religous ground should they be denied a job because their faith does not allow them to be union members? Muslin are not suppose to have insurance. Do not union provided a type of insurance for job protection?
If you a better worker than other should you be layed off since you are junior on the seniority list?
It seems like most of those commenting are ignorant of the working conditions that existed prior to the union movement and the gains made by all workers regardless of whether they were members of unions. So, as they say..."Those who cannot remember the past are doomed to repeat it."
Shouldn't these people be at work??
Yes, they called in sick to protest when they weren't sick!
I am glad Michigan joined the 21 century. Over a hundred years ago Some industries need unions, but no longer, Most Union have shut down the industries that used to employ them. Although GM was saved by taxpayer money, but the company is still in trouble. only doing half what the non union car companies ae doing.
Doomed to Repeat, yes it is wise to learn from the past, but Unions have not helped the worker as much as they helped the Union. Look at your top officials they are part of the so called 1%. It is just another leach sucking the blood out of the middle class worker.