Language
Language and nationalism
Catalonian confusion
Nov 27th 2012, 15:10 by R.L.G. | NEW YORK
THE weekend's election seems to have cleared up little about the prospects for Catalonian independence. The governing party, which campaigned for Catalonia's right to self-determination but not (yet) outright immediate independence, lost seats. An outright secessionist party gained seats, but so did a party vociferously opposed to independence. Overall, parties affiliated with the self-determination movement will now have a majority.
What are the linguistic factors at play? Catalan is an ancient language, recorded at least since the 11th century in a form clearly distinct from vulgar Latin. This age puts it roughly on par with the much bigger neighbouring French and Castillian Spanish. Unlike neighbouring Occitan/Provençal (also found in writing a thousand years ago), Catalan is the vibrant majority language of its territory still today. A 2001 census of Catalonia found that 4.6m of the 6.2m in the Catalan autonomous region spoke Catalan (and 3.1m could write it). Unfortunately, this doesn't distinguish levels of competency, though we can probably assume that people comfortable writing Catalan speak it well. Just 340,000 (5%) say they do not understand Catalan. Compare that to the Basque autonomous region, where 52% say they speak Basque "not at all". Basque separatism may be better known, but Catalan is healthier in Catalonia than Basque is in the Basque region.*
Though the newspapers this week are talking mainly about Catalonia's frustration over its subsidy to the Spanish budget, linguistic factors have been part of Catalan nationalism for a long time. Franco tried to ban nearly all written use of Catalan for decades, before relaxing policies to allow for limited cultural use. Public speaking of anything but Spanish was discouraged under the slogan una bandera, una patria, una lengua. Most attempts to crush a language simply make speaking it a point of defiant pride, and this was no exception. But the gap between speaking and writing skills in Catalonia show that to a certain extent, Franco succeeded, at least, in making Catalan more a language of private and informal life than of public and official use.
Catalan faces another threat: those 2001 census numbers above are not entirely safe from change, Catalans feel. Until the Spanish economy tanked, many migrants came from Latin America to Spain, and especially to wealthy Catalonia, looking for work. They brought Spanish, and in the bigger cities, felt little need to learn Catalan. (It is perfectly possible to live in Barcelona without speaking Catalan; it would be difficult without speaking Spanish.) Add to that the problem of what Catalan nationalists call "internal migration" from the rest of Spain, and Catalans do not feel that their language's future is assured. Having fought for tolerance of Catalan, the nationalist movement is accused of intolerance towards Spanish. In schools for example, Catalan is the primary language by law. As one member of the Institut d'Etudis Catalans once told me, though, Catalan nationalists don't consider this to be "intolerance". He simply wanted Catalan in Catalonia to be like Italian in Italy, German in Germany or French in France.
And that is the rub of nationalism: Catalonia isn't like Germany or Italy yet. A nation-state has the sovereign right to insist on the primacy of one language. Catalans constitute Europe's biggest language group without a state**: some 11.5m people speak the language, according to Wikipedia (meaning almost half of them are outside the Catalonian autonomous region in Spain). This puts Catalan on rough par with Greek, Bulgarian or Swedish.
In short: the weekend's election may not have resolved the picture, but Catalan nationalism is nothing to scoff at. With political, cultural and economic factors all pushing the same way, the idea that separatism will blow over may be wishful thinking. Our pre-election leader encouraged Spain to consider more formal and elaborate federalism instead, and recognise that Catalonia, the Basque country and perhaps Galicia are "cultural nations within Spain". Would that be enough for the nationalists? Maybe, maybe not, but the elections showed that a majority is certainly not happy with where things stand today.
* These numbers are incomplete. Basque spills into other provinces, especially Navarre, and into France. Catalan extends into France, too, as well as down the coast into Valencia, and to the Balearic Islands. But the rough numbers show clearly enough that of the two, Catalan is on the stronger footing.
** This excludes the Kurds. Though Turkey is an EU candidate and part of Turkey is clearly in Europe, the Kurds are more accurately considered to be in the Middle East.
It would be interesting to know where the bar is set for qualifying as a speaker of Catalan. Spanish and Catalan are so closely related that Spanish-speakers can easily get the gist of a Catalan newspaper article, and pick up enough of the spoken language to get by -- it is just a matter of whether they are willing to do so, or have a mental block about it. The comparison might be with an English-speaker picking up Scots (although the gap there is somewhat bigger, I should say). Basque is more comparable to Welsh: completely impenetrable unless you have made a serious study of the language.
Not that this disqualifies Catalan from being considered a separate language from Spanish. Portuguese is another matter: by concentrating slightly harder than usual, a Portuguese-speaker and a Spanish-speaker can have a perfectly serviceable conversation. Perhaps the time has come to declare them a single language. It would probably qualify as the world's most widely spoken, giving Iberians something to be cheerful about in these testing times.
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"Catalonian" is not a word. The demonym as well as the name of the language is Catalan (> middle French > Catalan).
Unless you want to argue that "Catalonian" has become standard English through back-formation from "Catalonia"? It's a common mistake but I'm not sure you can really claim that's happened yet.
If all these things appeaing in press were about you guys (I mean, english, french, germans...) would be funny to see who is complaining. Put yourself in the skin of a catalan, and you will rapidly understand that you will never ask less than any other nation in hte world. It's simple. Think it by yourself guys.
Just an example: will ever danish accept to be ruled by germans, accept german as main language in education, media, administration. Renounce to self-government, etc. I must add, for those who say catalans are always complaining, are intolerant or are nazis that I don't consider english, danish or whoever else to be nazi or to be intolerant.
It's easy to talk rubbish when things are not directly happening to you, don't affect your community, your family, your culture, your language and your rights.
We will not complain anymore when we will have our own state, I can assure you. But differently than others in history we are not killing people or raging wars to achieve it.
I am not Spanish or Catalan, and after reading the comments in this thread, I never want to be either. But the main conclusion to be drawn from this whole exchange is that the Catalans writing in this forum are world record setting whiners and complainers. What a bunch of cry babies. Which is curious, as that is not the impression you get of the Catalan people when you walk the streets and talk to the people of a wonderful city like Barcelona.
Probably it is still easier: a language is one of the the most ellaborate products of mankind. An abstract language is the difference betwwen a monkey and a human. But trying to transform a language in a flag is very dangeours. In fact nationalism is modifying and altering the natural evolution of catalan language. The words that are considered too much close to spanish are unnaturally abolished.
Absolutely. On top of that, the separatists use it as a weapon to discriminate, as only those who speak their marvelous language are true "catalans". Funny thing is that they prefer to make "new catalans" by recruiting among moslim immigrants, or defining as such "anyone living in Cataluña".
Another piece of Catalan propaganda, probably paid by the many millions of Euros from Spanish taxpayers, full of historical innacuracies and simple lies as repeated by the sececionists. There can be no "Catalan" language when there was no Catalonia (11th century). According to international jurisprudence, there is not one condition in Catalonia to claim any "self-determination" right. Same laws make it clear that international law does not support division of democratic countries. Catalonia is a part of Spain, a full right member of the European Union.
Franco never even tried to forbid Catalan. Literary competitions in Catalan continued to be open, but there was only one official language, same as happens today in France. Incidentally, the autor forgets to mention the fact that the Catalan Government forbids the use of Spanish language under penalty. This is against the Law.
How can you say something as metaphysically absurd as pretending that the Catalan people (whatever that is) are a people without a state? They are Spanish nationals all right!
Likewise, it is completely wrong to call this minority obsession "independence", as Cataluña has never been a kingdom, nor a state. It is simple sedition. And that is a crime as set forth in the Spanish Constitution and Civil Code.
If you want to understand why Catalans want independence, please read this post in my blog: http://wp.me/p2KU2b-3C
Hail, hail FREEDONIA land of the free !
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dsw9jYU_rJI
These are the laws of my administration :
http://www.lyricsondemand.com/g/grouchomarxlyrics/lawsoftheadministratio...
I would hate to come across as a nitpicker, in other blogs and contexts I wouldn't have mentioned it, but since this is Johnson... I must say that a growing number of people misspell Castile and Castilian and write Castille and Castillian, with a double L, something not easily detected on some computer screens, if one's eyes are tired, etc. It's clearly an influence from the Spanish original words Castilla and castellano.
If it's just a typo... please accept my apologies.
A couple of things. First, it's 'Estudis Catalans' - you missed the first 's'. Check: www.iec.cat/
Second, there are certainly better examples than comparison with the major European states. Even in France there are other minority languages spoken in regions, Italy is a hotch-potch of local dialects and Germany has plenty, too. The difference is a desire for statehood linked to the language. Flanders is the closest example I can think of right now, although as a close dialect of Dutch and the political situation being quite different, it is also no close comparison.
At least I am glad you have avoided the mistakes of other writers, who see the separatists as thinking they can somehow escape the recession. Modern Catalan nationalism is over one hundred years old and while it has exploded over economic issues, those same issues also led many to have quick doubts about the suitability of a break right now, not about the long-term aspiration to return to full nationhood.
But, on a more cheeky aside, a major doubt for many Catalan men must surely be the fate of Barça. The very symbol of their struggle would surely suffer a considerable decline separated from the life-blood of the Spanish league - there is no equivalent of the Scottish one!
a JEST-lJJOOO
This is a very good example of why Us CATALAN PEOPLE don't want to be part of S-pain any more!!.
They keep saying all this of " they don't have any rights" "they belong to us" "Castilian is our mother language"etc,etc,... .
There's no respect at all for our Culture, Language, self determination,... .
For century's, they tryid to forced us not to speak our language. Then again, The Dictatory stage with General Franco, people was In prison and murderd for defending Catalan. SOME people still think Franco is alive!?.
But Now, there's another problem!!. S-pain don't want us to be Independent, because all our taxes GO to the center Goberment and then most of it goes to do STUPID TRAINS that go noware, empty, with 4 PEOPLE per Day, AIRPORTS with a incredible COST with not a single AIRPLAIN (even so, only this year, they have spended over 12.000.000 € on one of this Empty AIrports). There's no money to pay medicines, schools, new NEEDED Roads (especially in Catalonia), REAL Trains for the very needed connection of the Mediterranean Coast to deliver costumes to ALL EUROPE, etc,... .
The Money that goes,and never comes back to Catalonia, is over 60.000.000 € PER DAY!!!. S-pain still asn't paid for Catalan roads, trains,etc, thousands of Millions that had to be paid 4 YEARS ago!!!.
In Catalonia, for over 50 YEARS, we have to pay for running at the Motorways. In places like Extremafura, they have Motorways going NOWHERE and they don't pay 1 SINGLE KM !!!.
The Spaniards are always saying "Stupid Catalans" "they always ask for more" ,etc,etc,...!.
For 300Years, we've been Absoluty Opressed by Madrid's Goberment. We have the Olders Parliament in Europe (over 1000 Years Old) and they say WE DON'T HAVE right to be a proper COUNTRY and STATE??.
We are OLDER that S-pain it self!!!. Wen most of IT WAS possess by the ARABYANS for 500 years, Catalonia was already Catalonia!!. So, STOP all that Bullsh... about " Catalonia belongs to S-pain" because more of 2/3 of the New Parliament is for the Independence, and most of Catalan People Too!!!, I'm sorry but: CATALONIA IS NOT S-PAIN" Senyor!!. I si no tens prous motius ni arguments, no pretengui anganyar a la gent amb un discurs PASAD DE MODA, senyor!!!, GOODBYE S-PAIN!!!. Apa, Adéu!.
||\*/||
You really need to be a fool and an ignorant to pretend that people (mostly peasants) in the past could have any power of rule. No one under Franco went to jail for speaking Catalan. How can you pretend that "for centuries" Spain "forced" you not to use Catalan? Maybe it was the fact that there simply was no such language, but the language spoken by your King of Aragón, of which the county of Barcelona and others (no count of Cataluña) where a part. Try to get out of your remote village and travel Spain, maybe you can tell us where too find what you call "empty stupid trains". Want to see a stupid airport with no planes? Try Lérida, in Cataluña. The roads you claim to need in Cataluña are not completed because the huge profits of toll roads go to the pockets of a Catalan company who wants no competition from a free public motorway running next to the AP7.
Just try to go back to school and learn a llittle of the History of Spain before you continue spreading lies. Are you really that stupid to think that anyone outside your village understands your dialect?
Dear Mwanden: first of all, I won't start by given any reply to Your "you are this, you aren't that", You've never travel ???". I' really surprised YOU Know how much I've Travel!!.
As I can see, YOU don't Know, that, as far as Catalonia is Catalonia (OVER 1.000 YEARS), there's been a Terrible Opression over Our Culture & Language. I You don't Want to SEE the TRUTH, is up to You and your conscience!. (us, The Catalan People, We have been Living Here, and I can talk about My Family, My Father & Myself!!). I don't NEED to descualify YOU for your unculture about this fact. The other Opression, Economic Wise, You should Know it (more than 60.000.000 € /DAY go AWAY from Catalonia and never comeback (but, of course, YOU Know nothing about this!?). Or maybe yes... You call it "solidarity"???. (I call it Robbery!!!).
Your President Rajoy, NOW & TODAY, is spending a lot of Money for another Useless Train to Galicia!!??. Do You Really need so many Fast trains before Many Other infrastructure much more USEFULL and NEEDED???. Or, maybe because Your President Rajoy is From Galicia??( even do He don't speak a
Any Gallego) He's not onto Tradition!!!.
In Catalonia, WE have NO options for our Payment Motorways (or you Call an OPTION the N-II ??) how many MORE death must BE on this National Road before S-pain pay the money they OWN for so LONG??!!.(More than 7 Years, to finish 7 Kms!!!.) In Your CLEVER opinion, is better to do FREE useless motorways in Extremafura?!?!.
What You call a dialect (the Catalan LANGUAGE), is older that your mother languish!!. Is spoken more than many other languages in Europe !!. (I know this is HART for you to recognise). Of course, before the elections, even Your politics, nobody should never even TRY to call it a dialect!!. That's what I call INCULTURE !!!. I so sad!!!.
Anyway, YOU don't like/want us. You NEED us only for economic wise, and that's way You're in Panic to see there's gonna be a Referemdum and Independence!!.
You may keep calling people "fools" "ignorant" and what ever...! We HAVE the reasons to say GOODBYE S-pain!!. Adéu i Bon Nadal, Catalans i altres!!.
Easy: only those who have never been to other regions in Spain can say that sort of lies about "empty roads and trains". There was no Cataluña 1000 years ago. Study a bit of History, please. There has never been any "Terrible Oppression" over language or culture, quite the opposite is the truth, even under Franco's governments, and there is written proof thereof. What you call "robbery" is what Spain has been suffering thanks to Catalan privileges. Show evidence of those accounts you claim. I have no president, I am a free citizen. Useless train to Galicia? It takes now around 11 hours to travel by train from central Spain to one of our national favourite summer destinations, not to mention cultural and business matters. For you, 3 million gallegos and the rest of Spain should not have what Catalans already have in advance, right? You have toll roads because Franco invested in motorways in Cataluña many decades before the rest of Spain could have decent roads, and it was paid by all Spanish tax payers in dollar loans. Your NII is not finished because Abertis (a LaCaixa company) has the monopolistic concession to make indecent amounts of money. And do you think only thos of us who live in Cataluña pay tolls? It is the only route for all trade from Andalucia, Valencia and Aragon, and they also pay. Why should there be no roads in Extremadura? Thney never had a motorway while Cataluña had modern moterways 30 years before. You do not know which is my mother language. How many people speack Catalan in Cataluña is irrelevant. It is a useless language that is not extinct because of the fortunes of Spanish taxpayer money to keep it alive by grants to papers no one reads, millions to run 6 catalán only TV stations (one per million people,)and obliged in schools with no respect for the Law. I am a qualified linguist, and Catalan is no more than any other dialects of old latin spoken in the región, call it language or whatever you want but do not use language as a weapon. Of course I do not want traitors, nobody does. Your secesionist leaders are lucky to live in a country like Spain, where they can get away with their crimes. Why don't you try the same in France? Because they would all be in jail. Spain does not need Cataluña, do not cheat yourself. Let me remind you of the wise words of a good Catalan writer about the Catalans and their arses... Josep Pla.
Only criminals and delinquents can fear, not a decent citizen. I cannot "panic" because there can be no such criminal act as a sedicious "referendum". Again, you cannot say "Independence" or "self-determinations", these are lies for avoiding calling it what it is: a crime of sedition.
Good to hear you are leaving Spain, good luck!
There's only one way of.Understanding Us Catalans. If some people don't get that feeling, there's no Way to teach or learn it!!.
Everybody knows, Catalonia is more than this 300 last years!!. The Corts Catalanes are since 1.192 ( with our own lawn that not even the King of Aragon could go against!!. (You don't. need to be "too clever" to see that's more than 500 Years ago!!)).
We have allready paid Our Motorways over more than 30, 40, and some time 70 times it's cost!!. You don't need to be "too clever" reach our point !!.
The Castello airport is absolutely empty. No plane as landed or departuded from it!!. You don't have to be "too clever" to see We don't need 3 times more Airports than, for instance, Germany!!.
There's a fast-train to Extremafura that Comes & goes EVERYDAY with 3 or 4 persons/ per day!!. You don't need to be " too clever" that, right now, there's more important matters (call it Medicin, Schooling, Social Atencion,..) than making all this infrastructures NOW!!?.
Personatly, I'm from Barcelona, (is not a little "village") and I travel A LOT!!. I know S-pain, and can see and hear. I was in one of the best Schools in Barcelona. I learned Spanish and Catalan History!. (not any Catalan, because it was forbidden!). But right now, WE all can see ( only if You are " clever enought") that, Catalan students have much better Castillian Spanish than the rest of S-pain!!.
You say Spain doesn't need Catalonia?. Perfect for all!!!. Let us be Free and everybody happy for ever more!!.
Good health to all, and goodluck! Bona sort!!.!.
What do you think it is so difficult to understand in the mentality of traitors? How can a righteous Spanishman understand the "feelings" of those who betray their country? It is the same as pretending that I should understand the feelings of a rapist. Nobody knows anything about those fantastic 300 years, except that is a another lie of the seditious Catalans like you. Las Cortes Catalanas did not represent a backward bunch of peasants, do not fool yourself. The "fueros" were granted by the King of Aragon, so it is only natural that he would not go against his own ruling.
Well, if all Spanish citizens have paid the roads many times over, it should be time to question those agreements granting private companies (Abertis in Cataluña) an extension of their profitable business. It is extremely naive to think that this business would be finished in a hypothetical Catalonia separated from Spain. Turning a private business issue into a crime against your country is a most despicable act of stupidity.
I am aware of the chaos brought about by the silly "autonomous" kingdoms in Spain, but it is a lie that fast trains run empty, and I do not see why this would ever be a reason for some Catalan peasant to claim seditious separatism from Spain. Catalonia is bankrupt, and yet, Mas calls for elections spending 30 million Euros instead of paying doctors what the owe. Still waiting for the accounting evidence of the money you claim to be stolen by Spain...
Barcelona is just a larger village, with just 1.7 million inhabitants. I do not think you have travelled Spain, otherwise you would not lie about "empty roads and trains". You have learned the lies about History that the Catalan dictatorship has taught you at school. Catalan was never forbidden, stop lying. Plese do not make me laugh about virtual analphabets like the Catalan having better Spanish. I only need to read what you write in Spanish to tell.
You are free to leave Spain (what country is S-pain?) anytime, it is better to let traitors run away than executing them like Luis Companys.
Fota el camp, nen.
"Traitors??, Rapist ??, Are those all Your arguments??.
Sad & poor, nano, very sad & poor!!!.
Jo no "foto el camp", nano, jo em quedo a Catalunya, nenet!!. Tu fes el que vulguis, company!!.
XXX lol.
It seems you also have difficulties reading English. Sedition is a crime against your country, read Spanish Código Penal articles 549 to 589. Also relevant is article 155 of the Spanish Constitution. Ignoring the Law will not help you get away with a crime, better learn.
My arguments are too extensive to reproduce here for your benefit. Still waiting for material evidence of the robbery you claim, cannot find it perhaps?
It is you who said you were leaving Spain, now you say you do not leave. Of course I do as I please.
Incidentally, your "arguments" in Catalan are a masterpiece of clever discussion...
There You are, Clever Boy!!. Some pictures. (easy to see).
http://www.tv3.cat/videos/4353250
Try to confuse someone else!!.
You and your seditious leaders are the only ones who are very confused. I am not interested in anything produced by Catalan media, all paid for spreading propaganda and lies by their patrons. Where are the accounting files supporting your claims about "robbery"?
At my age, being called a "boy" makes me immensely happy...
I have read the posted comments and I agree with "guest-ljjnali" in all his interventions.
MWanden well, I wonder if you would have the courage to tell us what your real problem is. But I have a feeling you might not have..."the courage".
I can tell you MWanden that maybe you have a problem with Democracy, maybe. If through human development it is necessary for a people to dissolve its political ties with a country, after a long history of abuse and usurpation and has designated as sole objective it's submission and a proven despotism, it is that people's right and obligation to defeat that country's Government and insure it's own people's safety and security.
If Catalunya wants to exercise it's democratic right through a Referendum, then let the people speak. Maybe it is time that "S pain" (hope you get the jest of "pain" MWanden)gives it's remaining citizens a more clear path to their own dignity. And it is not just Euskadi and Catalunya that do not want to have ties with "S pain". Travel a little further south (you who so likes travel)and ask Gibraltar. But you already know, they want nothing to do with it. I have a lot of respect for a lot of Spanish people and I have a feeling that they too wish they were Catalan. Oh, I forgot they are the traitors!! Do go and have a cup of herbal tea, relax and start thinking how to better channel all your hate and anger. Us Catalan people on the whole (just like any other) want peace, justice and a lot of work (you as a cultured person must know that we are good at work and that thanks to that a lot of the good people of "S pain" have had a better life.
Visca Catalunya LLiure!!
Of course you have to agree with each other, what else do you expect from birds of a feather (lobos de la misma camada)? Now enter the attacks ad hominem, in the lack of any proposition. As a soldier of Spain, who has sworn to defend his Fatehrland to the last drop of his blood, better not challenge my courage. There is nothing democratic in crime, which is what you seditious scum are pursuing. Turn the question to yourselves and let us know why you do not want a national referendum in Spain to see whether the Spanish people would accept the seditious separation of Cataluña.
What "abuse" or "usurpation" could that be? What you are proposing is a rebellion against authority by a few and you should be aware of the consequences of such acts. Explain what "safety" or "security" of the people need be "insured" in Spain. The Spanish Constitution, and qualified membership to the EU are more tan sufficient guarantee for all Spanish citizens.
Who are you to claim to speak in the name of Cataluña? One more time: there is no legal seditious "referéndum", therefore it is worthless even in the improbable hypothesis that it may ever happen. Everyone is Spain has the right of free speech, but is seems you are mistaken in considering these rights as a free ride to committing a crime against the Law. Pain is what frustrated people suffer when living under a delusional paranoid disorder, as anyone can assess by judging your fantastic delusions about Spain. For those who do not know, it would seem as if Cataluña was a Third World colony from centuries past, and nothing can be further from reality. All your imagined "history" of Cataluña are nothing but lies. Those who live in a dream die of dissapointment.
What has Gibraltar have to do with this matter? Do not be such an hypocrite pretending "respect" for your fellow countrymen while you insult us and spread lies about Spain, and stop dreaming about any true Spaniard wanting to be a traitor Catalan rat like Dencás or Companys running through the gutters in Barcelona. I bet you are another one of those "charnegos" (mongrels in Catalan) who do not even honour their immigrant parents. Who is "us Catalan people"?
I know Catalonian burgeois have made themselves very rich thanks to centuries of privileges granted by the Spanish Governments (including King Felipe V) and by exploiting slave labour from poorer and disregarded regions in Spain, the ones who truly work hard in Catalonia.
And thank you for your invitation, but I prefer a good red wine from my country.
Thank you for your reply. I can now see more clearly, and you surely don't disappoint. Soldier, Fatherland...thank you.
De res... Good to help you see the light before it is too late. As usual, only silence about important questions, the best proof that there is only an empty "cause" as vain as Mas's promises of a land of milk and honey behind all this circus of separatism. Seems easy for political leaders to manipulate the desperation of those suffering poverty, unemployment, and lack of future.
I hope you have a better insight into who are those you are challenging with seditious bravado. I am aware that the Spanish Army is the ultimate nightmare of traitors, but do not worry: it won't be necessary, it only requires the police to arrest civilians.
Wish you could also learn something about true values in any citizen in the world, as those that correspond to a decent man.
I know you would love to play the game, I do not need to. Sounds like those who are afraid bring out their bravado with empty lies and malicious threats. Poverty, unemployment lack of future. You are quite good, I must say.I guess if Catalunya remained a part of your beloved "S pain" none of that would be a problem.
By the way, I am not the one who is worried.
This is not a game. What threats? When you see a traffic sign, do you see a warning or a threat? Maybe you can believe the lies of your seditious leaders but I am just telling you that there are Laws and a Constitution to observe. If you do not, beware of the consequences. As this may apply to any crime, this particular one you promote is a most serious crime. Your choice.
What lies?
Cataluña is and will be a part of Spain. All I can tell you is that this lunacy is not a solution to the problems of Spain, and that is to say Cataluña as well. How could you trust the government of the country of your dreams in the hands of convicted thiefs? As long as Spain is the only bank for the Catalan squanderers, better think twice and stop having nightmares about Spanish soldiers (there to defend you, even when your local government does not pay what it should for the military), because it will not happen, as it has never happened in the past. Therefore, you should be worried, and if you claim not to be, you are in trouble.
Catalonia us Not and will Not be S-pain!
People have Spoken!!. Not only President Artur Mas, but the Catalan People!!
Do You think YOU can stop this??. YOU have a problem!!.
More than 2/3 of Parliament & People are for Independence!.
No more to say. YOU can't go againts this fact!!.
That's Ilegal,xato!.
And, please, stop the lies.
Are you been paid by Spanish Goberment??.
With our taxes?....
Read carefully and try to understand: Cataluña is Spain as it always has been. Of course it can not be that silly "s-pain" you mention, whatever that is, maybe up your arse.
What people has spoken what? Who do you call "Catalán people"?
If necessary, I will do everything I can to stop this madness. Your problem is going against the Law. My problem is a relatively simple one: defend my country.
Independence can be claimed by a sovereing state or kingdom that has been invaded, which is not the case of a region of Spain. What you pursue is call sedition, and it is a crime. A serious one, I should say. Remember the last idiot who unilaterally declared Cataluña a "state": it lasted about 10 hours, they had to flee through the sewers like rats when a francoist lieutenant simply threw a smoke grenade, only to be arrested by the Germans in France, judged and executed (Luis Companys). One more time: there is nothing legal in a crime, nothing democrating in violating the Law or the Constitution.
What lies?
You must be unemployed (chances are high), therefore I do not believe you pay any taxes. On the contrary, you must be on dole with money from all Spanish taxpayers, as your delusional leaders struggle to borrow more money from "Madrid" (a metaphysical entity responsable for all Catalan problems) in order to pay part of their debts to doctors, hospitals, functionaries...
There are values and principles a traitor can never understand, obviously. Defending my country is an honour that needs no money to compensate.
Lets put this in simple words.
I guess that through your contradiction in terms the English language is not your mother tongue.
There is a concept called Democracy, it is based on what a majority wants. I know you would love a vote for the whole of "S pain" to have a say. But I think even you can recognise the incongruence of such notion. Every person can happily say they feel a citizen of this world. I have lived for long periods in four different countries and speak four languages with great fluency. A couple more with a little less so.
I too consider myself a citizen of this world. There is something that most, if not all people (you obviously do, we have seen),which is called a sense of belonging. Something and somewhere which brings a feeling of community, being part of a culture, a history. All that bound together by a common language that is shared. I would love to speak each and every language spoken; I would feel that to be a privilege and a way to understand and respect the different people of this world. Minister Wert obviously does not agree with such concept, which is a shame, since knowledge is power (maybe that is the problem?)
I know respect is probably not a priority for you, judging by the language you have used in your last reply to guest-jjnali. You understand the sense of belonging to a culture, a country, the shared language. I, like the majority of Catalan people, feel that. Why is that so difficult to understand?. We are now working towards a change, that if you were not so blinded to see through your old country ways, even you could embrace. We have now been "flogging a dead horse" for too long. Catalunya and other parts of Spain have suffered in the hands of a repressive, inward looking country that has been refusing to accept it's mistakes on a daily basis. The spirit of your old "Caudillo" is very much alive, and that is grave, very grave. Too many people died for the right to be free at his hand, and we are not about to let those deaths to have been in vain. The fight is one for the greater good of a people who have had enough. History has proven that the Catalan people have always acted with prudence and negotiating spirit. Now we are following that trend, and want the right to decide through a vote that will give us the tools to make our country a better place. I am sure you will agree we are not doing this for any other reason. No one (not even you) can say with certainty what the future will bring, but give us the benefit of the doubt. A people with the past history (much of which has been distorted by your beloved country)can and will, through hard work and much "seny" do it's best to make it a reality.
Thank you for your concern for the future of this new country which is Catalunya. But remember, you will always be welcome, so long as you can behave like a respectful person with it's own opinions, just like any of us.
Catalunya has had enough and maybe you are afraid that we are opening a path for other Spanish people. Freedom is not always achieved through spilling of blood, but with the power of good will.
Contradictions in terms? Wrong guess, something I need not do to know English is not your forte. Ok, here we go with the personal attacks... be my guest.
There is something above concepts such as democracy, and it is called LAW.
Majority of Spanish... this is not "democracy" to the few seditious Catalans, is that what you understand by "democracy"? Where do you get this alleged "majority" of separatists? I know your leaders can multiply demonstrators like magic, turning some 75,000 people into 1.5 million just with a flick of a finger, but that is not real. There is no need to ask Spanish citizens about their identity or about their territory, it is a waste of time and money. Incongruence? How can you pretend the contrary when pretending to legalise a crime? Your personal resume is irrelevant, but I can do this in Spanish or Catalan if that helps you understand.
What you consider yourself is also immaterial, there is no passport for "world citizens". There is identity, not belonging, this is simple tribalism. Sadly, you did not learn Spanish well enough to respect your own country. Minister Wert is too late in the issue of education under the Catalan nazi dictatorship. Should have never been allowed to get this far.
Nothing to be respected in the actions or words of traitors who constantly insult me as a Spanish citizen. Again, your feelings will not grant you a passport. You have a Spanish passport, therefore, you are a Spanish national. How can you pretend to speak for a majority of Catalans? Speak for yourself, or maybe for the few gathering in your remote villages bars. Francos has been dead for many decades, why can't you move on? More people died in vain because others tried to destroy Spain in the first place. Prudent like Companys, Cambó, Prat de la Riba, Mas or Pujol? Nothing to negotiate with traitors, Roma traditoribus not premiat. Spain has the politicians people elect in free democratic elections, so what? I cannot see the future, but I can see the consequences of committing a crime against your country. Dura lex sed lex. No one lies or manipulates the History of Cataluña but the seditious gang. Catalans do not work hard, they have slaves from other Spanish regions, and now 1.2 million Moslims and Southamericans. One more time: delusional paranoid disorder, that is believing in fantasies like that "nou estat d'Europa" where all Catalans (of course, only if you speak the holy language that is older than the world) shall be rich, tall and blond, no taxes heaven, free public roads, and even the ugly girls will have handsome boyfriends...
The Laws of the nations bend to adjust to the dreams and wishes of a few Catalan, the new God chosen people. No one needs to welcome me to my homeland, and I have chosen to live where I find fit. Do not mention the word respect when you cannot do so with the holiest of things. Maybe you should consider that it is the Spanish people who have had enough of Catalan blackmail and sedition, not to mention the ripping off the Spanish moneys for the benefit of your ruling classes with accounts in Swiss banks.
I am keen to see what the power of your ill goodwill can do against the Law.
Have a lovely Christmas!
You too!
I bon nadal a tothom!
In Catalonia theres a valley, called Val d'Aran. Has 6 thousand habitants. They are occitant, as soon as in that valley is still spoken the aranese, a dialect of the occitant language. While occitant culture was widely spread to nearly 1/3 of current france, and going to Switzerland and Italy, right now the only place where is recognised and protected is in that Val d'Aran, where has the statute of cooficiality, is teached on schools, and have presence on public catalan radio and catalan tv. Since the last statute of autonomy, occitant is coofficial to all catalonia. As are too spanish and catalan.
In the other hand you find the "aragonese strip", a strip of land that belonged to catalonia for 8 centuries, but in a change of province lines in the xix century went to aragon region. Catalan is still spoked there by nearly 90% of population. But is not teached on schools, nor has been ever cooficial nor official. In fact was denied its existance. Still it is denied for some. And right now, the popular's party who is ruling the region said -by law- that its name is "eastern aragonese" (not catalan), which of course doesnt means yet be teached or have any presence. Spanish, by the other hand, is not called "western aragonese".
you can find the same in Valencia, where by one side they deny the unity of language (i prefer opinion of phylology in that matters, not only politics), while by the other the language has become extinc in wide areas in just a few decades (as Alicante, 3% of use today)
in valencia was banned the catalan tv (the antennas were paid in the 80's by valencians who wanted to watch a tv on its own language) by fining the valencian owner of those antennas.
IN the catalan side you should know that theres not any political party -the more extremist either- in the current catalan parliament who talks about having one single catalan language on an independent catalonia (the state should respect the language of its citizens), while all talks about maintain the coofficiality. And should know also that teaching in catalan at schools today is the only way to be sure that all pupiles ends their school period with perfect dominion of both languages. Not teaching in catalan, with the massive presence of spanish in the media, could mean that spanish native speakers would end obligatory school less prepared that catalan ones in the knowledge of both languages, and that will make harder for spanish speakers to compete for jobs or be less social skilled on a society where both languages have presence.
So: defending a spanish school in catalonia is not a call of freedom to choose, is a call to have students less skilled. learn languages is not bad, is good.
And if you want to know how minority languages are defended by spain and by catalonia, compare the situation of Aranese in catalonia and the one of catalan in aragon (existence denied) murcia (existence denied) , valencia (existence usually denied) or balearic islands. Also presence in the media. or ask yourself why catalan is not cooficial for the state, while catalans are citizens of this state. is not our state too?
Yes, nationalism is bad when tries to return to the past, but the one who has that will is the spanish, and trying to comeback to a past that never existed, where spanish would have been all around the peninsula, and catalan not existing.
"In Catalonia theres a valley, called Val d'Aran"
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Beautiful place.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gp8zsQHhris
(Sorry, I couldn't help it! No disrespect intended)
"the past, but the one who has that will is the spanish, and trying to comeback to a past that never existed, where spanish would have been all around the peninsula, and catalan not existing."
This past is not far and it existed: it was the present of the franquist regim. In those decades, at least, those surprised when speaking catalan were suspects for "la guardia civil", processed and fined or more. And it was not fun. I was there in these years as a french turist (and understanding catalan - which is not far from french) and I remember the fear of being surprised our friends had. They - as anti-franquists - dared speak everywhere in catalan even in the streets and shops but taking attention of the spies and policemen.
The fourth recommendation on your post is mine.
;-)
Does anyone know both contemporary Catalan and contemporary Spanish well enough to identify whether the predominant forms of I-statement are different between the two. In English the predominant form of I-statement is "I am 'X adjectival phrase'" (IAXAP). A much lesser used form of I-statement is "I have 'X emotion' now" (IHXEN). Thereby hangs a long tail/tale, too long to pin up in a post here. But, if anyone reading this blog comment believes s/he knows those two Iberian peninsula languages well enough to state a more or less authentic opinion on the distinctions involved, I would be grateful to hear it.
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You can reach me at the email address to be found from a link under my name as the author of an essay entitled "A Brief Overview of Eye-Zen English: A Family of Rational Emoto-Linguistic Principles for Problem-Solving and Needs-Meeting Connection". This seesay is accessible at the following link:
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http://authentixcoaches.com/IHXENOverview.html,
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where an explanation of the significance of the two syntactic forms, IAXAP and IHXEN mentioned above are discussed by an executive coach with practical expertise in psycho-linguistics.
Hi
I'm catalan.
So I speak catalan and spanish.
(and french, english, and arabic, but it doesn't matter now).
Most common form in both lanugages is IHXEN.
Even more, the form IAXAP simply doesn't exist in most cases.
"I'm cold" would be translated as:
CAT: Tinc fred.
CAST (spa): Tengo frío.
Literally: I have cold.
Does this answer your question?
Yes, thank you very much, Mr. Mora. More and more I discover that it is English which is a standout in that its speakers are all in the psychological sway propagated by the IAXAP form. I hope that you will, therefore, spend the time to review the link I included because it shows how "IHXENators" put to route the injustices perpetrated by slaves to the IAXAP syntactical form.
It is surprising that while in Spanish and Catalan people say "Tengo frío" and "Tinc fred", in Portuguese the most used form is, by far, "Estou com frio" (literally, "I am with coldness") or, to use another example, "Estou com raiva" ("I am with anger"). So, within the Iberian Peninsula (and its language offshoots), it seems the Portuguese favored the IAXAP form at least when the intention is to describe the feeling one's having. When one wants to state one's permanent feelings or state, it is most common to use a "I have X" statement. "Sou com raiva", using the standard verb for permanent states (ser vs. estar), sounds completely wrong in Portuguese. So "Estou com raiva disso" ("I am angry at this [now]") means something very different from "Tenho raiva disso" ("I am angry at this [permanently, always]).
That's right. As far as I know, Catalan is grouped with other Gallo-Romance languages, which include Italian and French, and specifically with the Occitano-Romance languages (Occitan is clearly the most similar language to Catalan). Spanish belongs to another Romance group, the Ibero-Romance languages, so it is that far away from Catalan. Catalan historically is closer to Provençal and French than to Spanish. As for Galician and Portuguese, my politically incorrect view is that these two should be regarded as divergent dialects of the same Galician-Portuguese language, still heading to become different languages, Galician being nowadays a little "hispanicized" in its phonetic inventory and vocabulary. That said, I can understand Galicians perfectly well by only paying attention on some simple differences (ão > on; j > x; c pronounced as /s/ > c pronounced as /th/). In fact, I could say sometimes I am more able to understand a Galician than an informal Portuguese from the Madeira Island or from Lisbon.
Historically speaking, after the 16th century Catalonia's misfortune was to be squeezed between two great powers: France (i.e. northern France and its conquests) and Spain (i.e. Castile and León and its conquests). French and Spanish were powerful languages and tended almost naturally to Francification and Castilianization, trying to phagocyte other languages like Catalan.
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In some respects the French were even worse than the Spanish, for as early as 1700 they officially forbade the Catalan language for any official and administrative use in the Catalan-speaking Rousillon &c.
http://www.crdp-montpellier.fr/cd66/artscult/fichesVauban/cdvauban/PERIO...
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In the 20th century The French Catalans had to suffer two world wars, the Vichy government and a German occupation that lasted for a year and a half, while the Spanish Catalans had to suffer a couple of revolutions, a civil war... and a 38- or 40-year dictatorship. The linguistic repression reached very high levels; even geographical, given and some family names were Castilianized. Suppose that the Spanish Armada had been victorious and England had been conquered and annexed by Spain after 1588. The English people might have been obliged to refer to Londres, Líverpul, the river Támesis, Kentia (not Kenya!) and perhaps even Castillonuevo del Tyne. Philip would have become Felipe; Elizabeth, Isabel; John, Juan; George, Jorge; perhaps Smith would have become Smíz or even Herrero. Well, that's what Catalans experienced after 1938-39.
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Nowadays, in French Catalonia (Catalogne Nord) Catalan is in a rather poor situation, but in Catalonia not only has it survived, but it's a very vital language, spoken, understood and read by millions of people. Plus those in the Valencian Community, the Balearic Islands, etc. They call it valenciano and mallorquín, but it's Catalan, really (I hope no anti-Catalan valencianos read this, or there might be trouble!).
Good comment. In fact, the French were very efficient - and cruelly so - in suppressing the conquered languages and cultures in order to establish French as the dominant and eventually (ideally, at least) the sole language of the entire state. Even Spain, with all its governments' repressions and stimulus to use only Spanish for official and formal matters, reached the 21th century with minor languages that are very alive (Catalan, Basque and Galician; the others, like Asturian and Leonese, were less fortunate), while in France the minor languages that still exist don't seem to enjoy nearly the same status and everyday use in public life.
Thank you. Yes, I entirely agree with you. Bable still exists in Asturias and is known in León as "Leonese". There are a few bears as well, fortunately...
By the way, the word I used, "Francification," is not very... Francization, Gallicization or even Frenchification would be more correct, but all of them sound horrible!
I thought that the link in my first post did not work, but it does. What a mess!
Eppur si muove...
Ygor:
Would you mind taking a look at a post of mine in this blog that appeared just 2-1/4 hours after the one of yours to which I reply here? Thanks.
There is no confusion, now things are more clear, the actual voters of CIu are for the right to decide, separatism, clearly, the second force in Catalonia ERC is separatist clearly, IC is also decided, plus the CUP, so the confusion from Spain is that they though that one party will defenetly go for that, and now we find that at least there are 4,With determination, without violence, but without doubt.
The PP ppeople still do not get it, and is a pity.
Just one think, Spain had a huge problem since its creation due to the ignorance and being not tolerant with many different cultures and languages as Catalan and Basque nations. Don't you think Spain has a problem when 2 nations inside the state don't want to be part of it? There is a clear majority in Catalonia parliament and Basque parliament where the people don't want to be part of Spain. And you know what Spain is doing? Just going against them, opress them. As a catalan I don't feel spanish at all, since I was born I wanted to be only catalan with my culture and language however inside spain I feel embarrassed wherever place around the world I go...please leave us to be free.
" Don't you think Spain has a problem when 2 nations inside the state don't want to be part of it?"
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It indeed does have a problem, but too many of them don't seem to be willing to face it, or face it in a wrong way.
Well, they are actually doing their best to promote it. The best propagandists for the independence parties in Catalonia are... the central government ministers
Mr, Zunguegui gives green light to a right-wing Spanish paper who set forth a bunch of bs a few days before the Catalan election in order to boycott democracy. A newspaper that claimed –and still does– that the Madrid terrorist attach was to be blamed on ETA. This is the ground for this person to claim that Catalan nationalism is a matter of corruption. Good. Doesn't Mr. Zunguegui and other Spanish people want to know why roughly 57% of people in Catalonia do not feel welcome in Spain? Don't they wanna know, if only out of curiosity? Can't they understand that we Catalans have the right to speak our language, we have the right to BE, and to EXIST without interference and without asking ANYONE’s acquiescence?
Whether you accept it or now, the process of independence in Catalonia comes from the people. There are around 650 towns out of approx. 900 in Catalonia that have declared themselves "independent" or "morally separated" from Spain.
I could tell you a million reasons of why people feel unwanted in Spain, but then Mr. Zunguegui will say that we are always whining. Real freedom?? Ok, I'll give you all an example of real freedom. The Popular Party president of the community of the Balearic islands, where a variety of Catalan is spoken, claimed that Balearic was imposed on the people and set his mind on “freeing” them from such evil. He gave free will of choice to whether Balearic people wanted their children to be schooled in Catalan or in Spanish. Only a 10% of families chose Spanish. Apparently, he thought people were still hostages of the evil and corrupted Catalans, so he decided a snap law-change and now, children can only be schooled in Spanish. That's the way of the Spanish government. That's Spain's real freedom.
Re. Language, what will you call Portuguese? Western Castillian? Or, God forbid, will Castillian be "Eastern Portuguese"? Rejoice, all ye faithful, that Spanish is the language of the Chosen Ones! What a shame! Btw, you know what comes on handy to us Catalans because of the linguistic proximity between the two languages? French! Why not call Catalan Southern French or, even better, pidgin French? Shall we call all Romance languages Spanish by the Grace of God? That's precisely your problem: you don't respect diversity, you don't respect variety, you don't respect other cultures. Spanish is a widely spoken language thanks to history and to the extermination of the pre-Colombian cultures, a heritage to be very proud of.
Catalan and Spanish are not in conflict in Catalonia. Children learn BOTH languages, and especially in Barcelona children tend to speak/write better in Spanish than in Catalan. Catalan is the language at schools because the presence of Spanish is overwhelming and if we don’t protect it, it will eat us up. Yeah, some will claim that some languages are doomed to die because on historic grounds and if they need to be protected it’s better tat they should die. But, you know what? I am sorry, but we do have the RIGHT to protect our language.
I.G. (Barcelona, Catalonia)
I'm sorry, but should say that what you say it's not right:
1st: The information that I have mentioned regarding corruption in Catalonia is not comming from any news paper, despite was the news paper EL MUNDO the one who first give the news. The information has been given by the SUP which is an official sindicate of the spanish POLICE... You can trust them or not, and the information should be prooved, but there's much more behind than a news paper. Not to mention the PALAU trial or the last police actions in Sabadell just yesterday... Isn't there any important corruption issues in Catalonia related to politicians?... Am I liying?
2nd: of course you have the right to speak your lenguage. Almost nobody in Spain is against that, neither against your culture; in fact, many spanish -I believe that the majority- feel proud about our different cultures and lenguages, at least this is how I feel and that's what I have said, nothing different; we don't have a problem with Catalonia, I don't have a problem with Catalonia: in fact I have very good friends there. Also consider that many other catalonian people doesn't want the independence, so please don't make other people confused about this, at least if you are referring to my words.
Best example of the attitude of many nationalist in Catalonia is your post: changing words, asuming things that haven't been said and mixing historical data that are not true or half-true and that in any case have nothing to do nowadays... But if you prefer we can talk about Romans, Arabs, Greeks and what they have done many hundred years ago, what the ow to us... rather than think in positive way what WE OW TO THEM, which believe me, despite any conquer, fight or disappoint in the past, IS A LOT. That's what I prefer to keep, and that's why I have no problem at all in being part of Europe and consider Frenchs, Italians or Greeks as part of what we are, and face the future toguether with them as we are already doing. And despite if you like it or not, in the next future national governments will become thiker while international parliaments will become stronger; they will rule your taxes -if you want to be in Europe you should have no doubt about that- as that is the only way to organize common politics; other ways it will be a mess as it has already been. And if they rule laws and politic programs, believe me that there will be no place for such unsustainable administration that we have in Spain with 17 small parliements, official cars, official employees... This is what some Catalonians and many other spanish people doesn't want to loose: leave from others by doing almost nothing to earn the money that they get each month. THIS IS THE REAL PROBLEM and not who organizes your taxes... No matter who colected, no matter who pays -in this case the Spanish Central Government-, but for 2013 you will need 13,000 million Euro to keep your Catalonia going on... and something similar is happening with other regions due the fantastic way of life of the "Autonomies". Simply UNSUSTAINABLE.
Finally, and apart from all this discussion, there's no doubt that by separated ways both Spain and Catalonia will be less, so please ask your self WHO will be the only ones that will really take advantage of that; then consider again what some politicians are doing in Catalonia and in many other parts of Spain, in many other parts of the world, and if you are only little honest and a bit clever you should find the answer by your self: CRITICAL THINKING.
Saludos.
"if You lie a long time, at the end, You believe Your lies are true"
Res mes a dir.
"Autonomías" are NOT unsustainable. What is unsustainable is the Central Government shedding the services (hence the costs) and then not only not paying for these same services in due time, but also in keeping the central Ministries as bloated as before. That is, in DUPLICATING these.
I am scottish but have lived in catalonia for 10 years. I am perfectly fluent in spanish as in catalan and my children are tri.lingual (english, catalan, spanish).
Intersting to note than in catalan schools, the results in spanish exams are better than those in madrid!!!!
Finally, for the catalans.....they do not live in spain by choice, but by conquest ! or colonialism.
So if you want to live in catalonia, by all means continue to speak spanish, but out of respect you should learn to speak catalan as well.
I love it when it takes someone from another background (this time Scotland) to put some coherent sense into things. I am from Barcelona and have lived in Great Britain for over twenty years. I am married to an English man and have an English son. All my live I have felt Catalan despite having been "officially" Spanish (I also have always felt "officially" ashamed of it, and still do).
My son came to Catalunya at eleven years of age ten years ago and now is in University with perfect command of the three languages.
To the Economist readers:
Having a look of all comments in this article, as a Catalan, I can say clearly that Mr. Alberto de Zunzunegui's comment is a perfect explanation about what it is exactly happening in Spain.
Under a good structured comment (Introduction, Plot, Conclusion), this man is clearly and unfairly accusing, to all the catalans, of being and having a corruption system.
After all is trying to pursue you all to see all the lies coming from the Spanish central government against Catalan political institutions, in order to reduce Independentist movement.
As a smart and civilized people, you'll notice that, what they are really getting with this nasty strategies is leting people realise that independence is the only way of getting rid of this disputes and strong accusations.
So If you have a look the overall of his comment you'll see that this man (in a parallel way with the Spanish Government): Introduces Catalonia as a wealthy region of Spanish state, then strongly accuse, manipulate and lie about us, and finally uses words like TOGETHER, UNITED, as the solution to remain and keep Catalonia as a part of Spain, and keep strangling us, as we are one of the richest parts of Spanish State.
Ladies and Gentleman, this is what is really happening in Spain. I just can say one thing: The process for Catalonia to be Independent, has already Started.
Thank you.
Francesc (Catalonia)
I'm sorry, but should say that what you say it's not right:
The information about corruption in Catalonia related to the CIU PARTY which is the one in the local Governement at this time -NOT ALL THE CATALONIAN PEOPLE: PLEASE DO NOT SAY THINGS THAT I HAVENT SAID- that I have mentioned is well known and has been recently given by the SUP, which is an official sindicate of the spanish POLICE... You can trust them or not, and the information should be prooved, but unfortunately seems that there's much more behind than my imagination or an unfair comment. Not to mention the PALAU trial or the last police actions in Sabadell just yesterday... Isn't there any important corruption issues in Catalonia related to politicians?... Am I liying?
Fortunately there's plenty of information regarding corruption in Catalonia, so I don't need to lie. Just google "corruption in Catalonia" and you will have plenty of reading for a few days. And believe me, I have nothing to do with all such information, is not me who is accusing -is the press, the police and even the justice, with the trials that are already going on-; thank you but I'm not so important neither I need to use lies to defend my ideas. Maybe all that information concerning corruption in Catalonia is a big lie, and maybe all the justice is wrong and liying as well... but you should accept that will be easier and much more probbably that some corruption cases could be true, even in Catalonia; don't you think so?
Of course we can talk as well about corruption in many other regions, parties, and local governments in Spain -so in many other countries of the world-, but we where talking about Catalonia at this time, and this doesn't make any difference or false that in Catalonia seems to happend big corruption issues, so please, again tell me where's the lie in my words or what have I manipulated.
The only undoubtable truth is that now there's much more than a problem among Catalonia and the rest of Spain: you already have the problem inside Catalonia, as the population is clearly divided, as many of them doesn't want to be independent and that will mean big troubles for all of us -specially for you- in the following years.
... Well maybe not for all, as for some they will WIN again. Think WHO, think WHY, think at WHAT COST. Please, use your CRITICAL THINKING.
Saludos.
Be careful with googling as your sole source of knowledge.
You search for "the Sun rises at the west and sets at the East", you will no doubt get quite a result as well.
Population in Catalonia is divided -to 70/30 at last count. And due to these important corruption findings about the president, the former president, the "Conseller d'Interior" and the Catalan police itself -which, by the way, have been challenged in the criminal courts, each and everyone: I for one would not be that crazy if there were substance in the alleged charges, lest I find myself facing both a trial for corruption AND a lawsuit for defamation- but, yes, corruption happens, Catalonia is rife with it, the monies disappear into their leader's pockets... and you end up believing it.
Oh, and Catalans are stupid also. They want to control their monies, they say, but they are in fact duped to the hilt by their cunning leaders, who have enticed them to protect the same leaders in a great leap forward... to hell, because they are nothing away from Spain and, of course, the troubles ahead are ...specially for them.
Has nobody in Spain thought that if Catalonia secede, Spain will be WORSE OFF than them?
Well, well...
They will -perhaps- win ONCE. Again?
There was awhile ago an "OPA" from a Catalan group for ENDESA. What was the rallying cry in Spain?. "Antes extranjeros que catalanes".
And they have the nerve of saying that it is the Catalans who want to get out?. The fact is that Spain is kicking them out instead.
Long live, Spanish nationalism!
Mr. Zungunegui:
Regarding the corruption issues in Catalonia, I’m not going to say that it doesn’t exist, because I’d be lying, but what I’m going to do is, defend CiU party from your accusations of corruption.
As you referenced in your quote “But among all the things, catalonian nationalism is mainly a matter of corruption; the money is always above everything and this is not an exception. Those who leads the nationalism in Catalonia -the CIU party- have been accused of corruption and illegal finance of their party, with some trials already going on -Palau issue- and some more coming soon, as probably we will see in the next weeks.”
Should I say accusations or directly your lies? After the strong accusations to CiU party about corruption, the general secretary of SUP, Mr. José Manuel Sánchez, denies that in the 17 pages of the Informal Report, Artur Mas nor Jordi Pujol, were shown in it. This “report” seemed to have neither data nor signature. So basically your accusations and the Central Government accusations are NOT TRUE, are just unfair play in order to silence and try to decrease the voice of the people. So it’s important to separate, the corruption in Catalonia regarding “Cas Palau” and PSC party from further accusations to CiU Party.
Should I start talking about the corruption in Spain, “Valencia” and others? So please don’t try to blame us with completely FALSE accusations.
As well as regarding the “population is clearly divided” I don’t need any argument on that, it is a simple as reading the elections results and see the number of people for the Independence (60.66% seats on the Catalan parliament pro independence), while (39,34% were against it). Basically the cost of Catalonia remaining in Spain is bigger instead of becoming a new state within the EU. And most of the Catalans are disposed to face that.
What I don't understand and what is quite surprising is that seems that you are not worried because you could have corruption in Catalonia or in any of your political local parties, but about the political issue... Don't you care about corruption, doesn't matter where it comes from?... If you should say to me that in my government, in my town-hall or no matter where else seems to be corruption, at least I will investigate and feel thank you to anybody -no matter who- which helped to finish with such ilegal practices that makes that much hurt not only to the economy, the reputation or the reliability, but also to justice or human values.
So please, if you know any case of corruption in any other part of Spain your information will be WELCOME and I will consider you a friend rather than an enemy.
The problem begins when some people forgive or doesn't want to see such terrible faults if comming from our party, our particular political leaders, or if that is in some way convienent for our purposes. That's is a big mistake: first because is unfair and it goes against the truth and the justice, and second because sooner or later it will turn against ourselves.
If nothing is true concerning corruption in CIU I will be more than happy not only for you, but for all those values that I have mentioned. But if there are such a lot of doubts, I guess that at least should be investigated till the end, and if someone is found guilty should be prosecuted and pay for it according to the law... Don't you agree with this?
If so, then maybe we already have something in common, and that will be a good beginning for a successful relationship. If you prefer to avoid any investigation to clarify and know the truth without doubts -something absolutely important when talking about politicians or administrators-, or if you defend corruption when convinient to your purposes, then I should say that we are much more far away than a few hundred kilometers or than any other physical or political frontier could grant.
Have a nice day.
Will The Economist please stop referring to the Basque Country as the Basque region, or worse, the Basque country with a lowercase c. The official name of the land is Basque Country, both capitalised. If you lowercase the c in country you might as well transfer the same logic to the United states or the United kingdom. And the Basque region is grammatically correct, but it's silly, after all, you do not refer to England as the English region, do you?
You are quite right, but perhaps it would be time to start referring to the Basque Country with its own name, Euskadi. The confusion or ambiguity stems from the fact that the word "country" has several meanings, including "a state or nation" and "rural districts, including farmland, parkland, and other sparsely populated areas, as opposed to cities or towns". Unfortunately, many people don't pay much attention to capital letters and don't even distinguish between "queen" and "Queen Elizabeth II, as a matter of fact some write "queen elizabeth ii"
If Éire was accepted in the past when it was Ireland's official name and Sri Lanka and Burkina Faso are accepted now, why not Euskadi?
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Articles like this make my head hurt. First, some clarifications:
1. A nation is not a state, it is just a group of people who consider themselves members of that nation.
2. A nationalist is someone who has his own concept of what the nation should be - who is included, who is excluded; what the national culture should be.
3. Culture, at a minimum, is how people live - language, food, morality and other social norms.
4. Urban cultures are different from neighboring rural cultures.
5. We all speak a language which is different from the formal, written language. (As an example, go to Liverpool or the Bronx and listen to the people - they speak different dialects although they write in the same language.) This is also true of other aspects of culture.
6. We all live simultaneously in different cultures. In England, the same people behave quite differently in a pub than in a good restaurant. Cultures can be class-based, regionally based, occupationally based, and so on. And, as we all know, investment bankers have their very own culture and morality.
7. Cultures are dynamic and change over time. The Industrial Revolution led to huge changes in cultures and, often, the creation of new ones.
8. But underlying modes of thought and group memory are remarkable persistent.
9. Nationalist historians present a version of past events which support their own agenda. Unfortunately, there are few historians who can write an objective version which can be accepted as true since it will, inevitably, show the warts as well as the beauty spots.
But modern nationalists often seek to return their region to an imagined past, often rural, where outside influences are resisted, just like the effort to return Catalonia to a land where everyone speaks Catalan. They are fundamentally reactionary, resisting change as if such changes threaten their culture, and even seeking to eliminate culture phenomena which have come from an "alien" source.
Given that cultures evolve over time, why should populations accept the imposition of a freeze, or even retrogression of their culture. Who are the nationalists to tell them how to live their lives? Nationalists will reply by asking who are these people - usually non-members of their self0defined nation - to influence the way they live their own lives. But I think you will see the fallacy in this logic.
And nationalists often try to use language as an additional way to define who is a member of the nation and, incidentally, to restricy access to ideas from outside their nation.
Catalan nationalists will say that it is Spanish nationalists that are seeking to impose their idea of the Spanish nation on Catalonia, and they may be right. But if Spanish nationalists have no right to impose their values on Catalonia, who are the Catalan nationalists to impose their values on those who live in Catalonia but do not share, or wish to share, those values?
As I said, it makes my head hurt.