Where now for Afghanistan
Interview with Ahmed Rashid
Ahmed Rashid, in terms
of the objectives in Afghanistan
General Petraeus famously said
that we were not trying
to create Switzerland.
But as we approach 2014,
what is the measure
of success in Afghanistan?
General Petraeus said that,
but the fact was that in 2001,
Western leaders were all talking
about rebuilding Afghanistan
like a Switzerland almost.
And they promised
a great deal to the Afghans.
I think, you know, one of the very
big mistakes was that it…
The whole issue of nation building,
which meant rebuilding the Afghan
infrastructure, was very slow
and it didn’t really take off
until 2004, 2005,
by which time
the insurgency had started.
It was difficult
to get things done quickly.
And as a result we haven’t
had the economic development
in ten years, which we should have,
considering the funding
that has gone in,
from the West into Afghanistan
on economic development.
The Afghan government
is still generating
only a billion dollars
a year as revenue,
which is pitiful
after ten years of investment.
On the other side, the social sector
has seen a massive improvement.
There’s been a whole
new generation of Afghans,
urban, educated,
semi-educated Afghans
who have grown up
under this Western presence
and have benefited enormously
from this Western presence.
They’re going to school,
some of them have got jobs.
Women have been, you know,
freed from the home, etcetera.
So, you know, it’s a mixed bag.
Do you feel that the Afghanistan
conflict has reached a stage where,
whether your point of view
is positive or negative,
you can find something
to justify your opinion?
Yes, certainly, because it has
not been a resounding success.
The insurgency has not been beaten
or co-opted into the government.
The economic development
has been patchy.
The relations with the neighbours
have been difficult.
So, yes, it is easy to find whatever
you’re looking for in this conflict.
But I think, you know, there are now
certain realities with 2014 coming,
the withdrawal coming, the US,
NATO, the Afghan government,
they all have to make very serious
assessments in the next 18 months
as to what they want to do, where
they want to go, with 2014 coming.
And it’s not just about security, it’s
about a whole host of other issues.
And some of those other issues
may involve economic issues.
How key do you feel
that the economy of Afghanistan is
to the security of Afghanistan?
- Well, I think it’s absolutely critical.
And it’s very worrying for me
that the thousands of Afghans
who work for the Western
security forces as cooks or cleaners,
translators, clerks, typists, whatever,
are suddenly, who have been used
to a certain lifestyle, a certain job,
a certain income,
who benefited enormously,
who have improved
their educational standards,
they’re all going to be out
on the street without a job.
And the economy is not
in a position to absorb them.
So, my question to NATO is: What is
NATO doing to ease this transition,
to create the kind of space
for employment of these people
so that they do not…
number one, join the Taliban
in kind of disgust
and anger and frustration,
or that they just leave the country
and become lumpen refugees,
sitting in Europe
or illegal somewhere else.
So there is
a very critical economic situation
that everyone should be
looking at from now.
That includes the Western powers
and the Afghan government.
After 2014, the support that the West
will be able to give Afghanistan
will largely be in aid contributions.
Do you feel that Afghanistan has
tackled sufficiently the corruption
to guarantee that that aid
can go to the right places?
Probably not.
It’s difficult to see that happening
even in the next 18 months or so.
And it’s even more difficult to see
whether the individual ministries
in the government
are going to have the capacity
to run their own ministries, their
own budgets, and deal with these...
with their ministries fairly,
without corruption
and without Westerners
guiding them as to what to do.
2014 will clearly be
a milestone year for Afghanistan.
How do you feel it is perceived
by ordinary Afghans in the street?
Nobody is expecting Afghanistan
to be perfect in 2014,
but I think that the focus that has
been put by NATO and the US
on creating the ANA,
the Afghan security forces…
We need now a similar kind
of focus and attention and planning
and money to deal with issues like
the economy, issues like corruption,
issues like planning to...
how to end the ethnic divide
that has got worse and worse
in fact in Afghanistan
between Pashtun and non-Pashtun,
and how to deal with this issue
of governance and decentralisation,
because a lot people are demanding
changes in the constitution.
And that could well erupt in 2014,
which is also the year
by the way of election.
In terms of the Taliban, you wrote
a bestselling book about the Taliban,
what do you feel is the role
of the Taliban going forward?
Look, I think there is
a very serious attempt
by some of the older leadership
from the nineties,
which includes people
around Mullah Omar,
who would like to see a settlement.
There are many reasons I can give
you why they want a settlement,
but the most compelling reason to me
is the fact that they understand
that they failed
at governance in the nineties
when they were ruling the country.
And that if they were to rule again,
they would probably fail again
because they would be abandoned
by the international community.
There would be no money, no aid.
So in their thinking it’s much more…
it would be much more appropriate
for their own survival
to go in
for a power-sharing agreement
with somebody like Karzai or
whoever the government is in Kabul,
go in for a power-sharing agreement,
come to an agreement
so that they would get a share
of power, they would be able to rule
perhaps in some of the provinces
where they are traditionally from.
But they would not alienate
the neighbours, the West,
and the aid would keep coming.
If we imagine that kind
of government, that kind of coalition
coming to fruition, what would an
Afghanistan ruled that way look like?
Would it roll back the advances
of the last ten years?
Well, that would be
an overriding demand by the Afghans
and by the West
that the concessions to the Taliban
on issues like education,
women, on all the social advances
and even entrepreneurship,
businesses, etcetera, you know,
those are really not up there to be
bargained away or to be rolled back.
One issue which the Taliban
would probably want
and what a lot Afghans want, is
decentralisation of the government.
Afghanistan is too centralised.
The President has too much power.
And maybe that was a need in 2004
when the Constitution was made,
but Afghanistan has gone on
and people want power devolved
to the provinces, to the local areas.
And so you could foresee
a Taliban that is moderate enough
to actually concede that some
of the strictures of the nineties
should not be re-introduced?
The Taliban have conceded
some of those things already.
Already there is an official edict by
the Taliban allowing girls education.
This has been operational
for about two years.
There is a very firm direction
by Mullah Omar
not to burn down schools, you know,
and attack schools
and schoolteachers.
It hasn’t been fully applied
because rogue commanders and all
are still doing that kind of thing.
The closest we’ve seen recently
was a commitment not to allow
terrorists on a future Afghanistan,
which implies that what
the Americans have been demanding,
that they distance
themselves from al-Qaida.
Given the fact that we don’t have
a peace process at the moment
and we really don’t
have negotiations,
the Taliban have made
already some concessions.
Ahmed Rashid, thank you very much.
- Thank you.