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WASHINGTON, D.C., 

Jan 6, 2011 — Michele Flournoy, undersecretary of defense for policy, U.S. Department of Defense, was interviewed by Jim Garamone, American Forces Press Services, January 6, 2010 about U.S. military policy in Africa.

The complete transcript is below:


JIM GARAMONE: Again, thanks for doing this. I really do -- I find -- I think a lot of people find these helpful. And this is Africa that we're going to be talking about and Africa is a large and diverse continent. And I know the U.S. policy -- defense policy -- there isn't one-size-fits-all. But are there overarching policy considerations that apply to all the nations there?

MICHÈLE FLOURNOY: Well, I think when we think about Africa -- first of all, the Department of Defense is working very much to support broader U.S. strategy. And that strategy puts a premium on supporting democratization and the emergence of democracies in Africa; supporting economic growth and development; building capacity, a lot of what we do with other African militaries is building their capacity; and then finally, of course, being prepared for any kind of contingency or crisis.

We do a lot of work to try to prevent crises from becoming conflicts, but we're also prepared to respond to things like humanitarian assistance situations or disasters, noncombatant evacuations, if the need arises.

MR. GARAMONE: You know, that's -- you know, that's -- Africa is almost the perfect continent for the whole interagency process. Is that the case? Is that what happens?

MS. FLOURNOY: Yes. We have intensive interagency engagement with every issue that relates to every part of Africa, often working very closely with the State Department, U.S. Agency for International Development and other interagency partners. They really do have the lead and DOD is really in support in most situations.

MR. GARAMONE: You said mostly, like, logistical. I know we have -- we send medical teams down. I know we have -- we have some security teams that go out with local militaries. Is that the sort of thing that we're providing?

MS. FLOURNOY: A lot of our routine activity is either building partner capacity, where we are sending training teams out to work with our African partners. It may be just general military training or it may be training them in a specialty area like medical evacuation or what have you. We also use our military forces to do a lot of civil affairs type of work, where we're supporting interagency work, working with militaries and communities writ large, again, particularly if there's a humanitarian assistance need or a disaster relief requirement.

MR. GARAMONE: U.S. Africa Command is the newest geographical command. Has that changed the equation for the way that we deal with Africa? The Department of Defense --

MS. FLOURNOY: The creation of AFRICOM has leant a lot more coherence to our effort in support of U.S. strategy. Africa used to be split among three different combatant commands, and so you get somewhat uneven levels of focus, energy, resourcing projects and so forth.

Pulling it all together in AFRICOM, first of all, has allowed a more strategic perspective on what we're doing across the continent as a whole but also a more -- greater ability to prioritize effort and resources towards things that really will make the greatest difference.

MR. GARAMONE: So for example, we are -- we're having the elections in Sudan -- or, they're having the elections in Sudan, coming up. Is that something that Africa Command would look at and study in addition to the State Department and in addition to others?

MS. FLOURNOY: Well, certainly our efforts with regard to Sudan and particularly ensuring that the referendum comes off peacefully is predominantly a State Department lead, a diplomatic effort, but we have been looking across Africa, and including Sudan, at the whole question of capacity building. And if, in fact, the referendum results in the division of Sudan into two states, we will be looking at the capacity building implications of that.

The South has very nascent institutions and would have a lot of capacity building challenges, you know, associated with statehood. So our main interest is that this process goes through according to the CPA and in a peaceful manner, but AFRICOM will be ready to support with capacity building efforts and, should violence erupt, with contingency planning. But we hope that doesn't occur.

MR. GARAMONE: And I noticed that the command always seems to work with allies in the region; ECOWAS or the African Union. Capacity-building for these alliances, I take it, is important, too.

MS. FLOURNOY: Yes, absolutely. Africa has some increasingly strong regional institutions. We have taken a very "by, with and through" kind of approach in Africa. Meaning, we are investing a great deal in helping the AU, for example ECOWAS, others develop capacity for peacekeeping.

For example, for the AMISOM mission in Somalia, we've worked very closely with the African militaries who are contributing forces to that effort, particularly the Ugandans, for example. And so we are seeking to build their capacity to be able to address the security issues in their own region and that's really been our focus, both nation by nation but also working through some of these important regional organizations.

MR. GARAMONE: Since the end of the Cold War, I've seen at least, like, three strategies for the continent. I remember Secretary Cohen saying that we were going to have Nigeria and South Africa as the two main allies in the area because they were both strong countries that had a lot of influence through the region. Can you just take me through the last 10 years of U.S. military strategy to Africa in the, sort of, CliffsNotes version, and where we were, where we are, and where do we expect to be in 10 years?

MS. FLOURNOY: It's a great question. It's a hard question and I think, you know, we have gone through periods where we've identified, for example, a couple of lead nations, if you will. But I think now we are focused more on understanding the subregional dynamics on the continent, and I think we are looking primarily at different regions of Africa and groupings of countries.

The issues we deal with, for example, in the north are somewhat different than those in the south. We are dealing with violent extremist groups for example, particularly in North Africa, that have used ungoverned spaces to try to gain a foothold. I'm thinking of AQIM, for example, in Maghreb. We are also seeing organizations, you know, in Somalia, al-Shabaab, AQAP on the Arabian Peninsula which is technically outside of AFRICOM's purview but still --

MR. GARAMONE: The influence is still there.

MS. FLOURNOY: -- yeah, it's still there.

We've also, you know, seen other transnational phenomenon like piracy and having to deal with those kinds of threats. So I think we are taking a more challenge oriented approach and a more subregional approach that really looks at how can we take a common challenge and work with a group of countries to build their capacity to be more effective in banding together to deal with that, with us in support.

MR. GARAMONE: And in 10 years, just continue that process?

MS. FLOURNOY: I think that it will continue and it should continue. I think in 10 years, we hope to be in a situation where there's a great deal more capacity that these nations can bring to bear, and that they're more able not only to respond to crises, but also to get ahead of them and prevent them.

MR. GARAMONE: So to anticipate the crises?

MS. FLOURNOY: Yes. Yes. And a lot of this depends -- going back to the original strategy -- on, I think, the progress of democratization and development. So many of these crises come from very weak experiences of democracy and peaceful changeover of power; we're seeing that right now in Côte d'Ivoire.

Every time you have a situation where that becomes a full-fledged crisis, you are essentially setting back the development effort for a period of time as well. And so the creation of peaceful political processes that create the stability for development to occur, that's the name of the game in Africa.

MR. GARAMONE: Which countries do you think uphold that the most?

MS. FLOURNOY: Well, I think there are a number that do, that have sort of emerged over time. I'd hesitate to sort of, you know, get into the business of grading or ranking, but I think there are a number of countries in Africa now that have had a series of peaceful transitions of power. And in most of those cases you see a corresponding increase in their level of development over time, as well.

MR. GARAMONE: Because not only government development but at that point private money -- (inaudible, cross talk).

MS. FLOURNOY: Yeah, economic development, right.

MR. GARAMONE: What other transnational threats emanate from Africa? And I'm thinking more like the ungoverned -- there's the problems with the ungoverned spaces but they're sort of like the illegal immigration. And are we working with the European allies to deal with these transnational threats: immigration, drugs, various other things? Are those things that we're involved with?

MS. FLOURNOY: I think that we are dealing -- working not only with local partners but also a number of other outside partners who also have interest in Africa, relationships in Africa. And so for example, with regard to some of the violent extremism we see in the northern part of Africa, we, you know, are working in close partnership with not only the countries of the region but also France, for example. So we do -- we do, do that.

When it comes to piracy, when you look at -- you know, the U.S. has a combined joint task force. The European Union has also sent forces. China, India, Singapore -- Asian countries have also sent contributions to deal with the piracy problem. So it is a very international mix based on different countries and their assessment of their interest.

But a lot of this does come back to the ungoverned or undergoverned environments, pockets, in Africa and the kind of lawlessness and illegal activity that breeds. Whether it's a group like al-Shabaab basically controlling humanitarian assistance coming into the country of Somalia and trying to, sort of, essentially tax that or extort from that; or it's the phenomenon of piracy that results from the lack of a viable economy in Somalia. Or, violent extremism that takes root because of unmet, you know -- or, unaddressed local grievance in various pockets where the government really isn't providing for the basic needs of the people.

So I mean, the phenomenon of under the lack of, sort of, successful government and economy is really the root cause of a lot of these transnational threats.

MR. GARAMONE: And it's not helped by the AIDS epidemic. It's not by --

MS. FLOURNOY: No, of course not.

MR. GARAMONE: -- any of the other problems that they've having. Somalia, I was in Somalia back in -- when we were still there. In fact, that's where I first met General Pace, back, lo, those many years ago. Do you see that -- how do you see that playing out?

MS. FLOURNOY: It's a -- it's a terribly difficult situation. We are trying to not only support the TFG, the transitional government there, and the U.N. peacekeeping forces that support them, but also look to keep parts of Somalia like Puntland and Somaliland where there seems to be more of a functioning government, more of the conditions to begin capacity-building and development, and so we're trying to invest -- not just be focused on Mogadishu but also invest in some of those areas where there seems to be some greater degree of stability emerging, and some capacity there that can be developed.

MR. GARAMONE: Do you think that it'll split into three countries? Which is -- (inaudible, cross talk).

MS. FLOURNOY: I don't know. But I -- it is -- it's just going to be a very long-term project. And I think it's going to take the effort of the international community, but also a number of the neighboring states to try to play a more stabilizing influence, as opposed to a destabilizing one.

MR. GARAMONE: I'd like to -- I'd just like to -- there have been a number of books out and many magazine articles, on the whole dividing line between Islam and Christianity or animism that essentially goes directly across Africa. Is that -- is that something that you deal with, that you plan on? Is that -- is that a concern to the Department of Defense?

MS. FLOURNOY: I think that people can make too much of the supposed dividing line. It's certainly true that the majority population in the north is Muslim and the majority in the south is not. But when you actually look at most African societies, there's a tremendous amount of intermarriage, of tolerance in many areas, intermixing multiple communities. So I think we can make too much of that.

Again, I don't think this is about a religious divide as much as it is about, you know, where we find real issues of violence and extremism. It has to do with the issue of, you know, the undergoverned or ungoverned areas, and, sort of, very traditional, sort of, disputes among communities or tribes or groupings that have very long histories and don't have to do with Muslim or non-Muslim, necessarily.

MR. GARAMONE: Okay. So I'd --

MS. FLOURNOY: I think too much has been made of that concept, I guess. And it's not something -- it's not a lens through which we're -- it's not a lens we are using in making policy.

MR. GARAMONE: Okay. And the -- the National Guard has these state partnership programs which assist in various countries in Africa. Are those -- are those helpful? And how do those help with the American military strategy.

MS. FLOURNOY: The state partnership programs that the National Guard runs are a tremendous force multiplier, not only in Africa but globally. We have these all over the world, and what you see in so many of these situations relationships, long-term relationships are so important to building trust and to building capacity so they don't just come in for a one off, you know, experience training project, whatever it is. They come again and again and again, and the relationships are built, the trust is built and, over time, real capacity is built.

So at a time when the active force is so heavily engaged in Iraq, in Afghanistan, in combating violent extremism around the world, having the National Guard teams that can provide consistent focus and work with individual countries with which they're paired is just -- it's just an invaluable resource.

MR. GARAMONE: And if I could ask you just one more, sort of -- are we planning more exercises, more -- they used to have that exercise, "Flintlock," that was held in Mali, Burkina Faso, a couple of other places. Are we looking at something large like that or do you see this being, again, just more individual exercises, smaller training exercises with the various countries?

MS. FLOURNOY: I think, you know, in the past the large exercises were more focused on sort of traditional, conventional military activity and operations. Most of what we're finding is that, you know, these partner countries need help in more specialized areas so the work tends to be more focused on particular capability areas often at a smaller scale but more relevant to the sort of phase of development of our particular partners. So it's very tailored at this point.

I think it's also done on a fairly strategic way. That this tends to be not just training for the sake of training but tied to -- for example, enabling a particular military to make a particular contribution and peacekeeping or to be prepared for a particular threat on its border or to be able to contribute to respond to a particular crisis. So it's -- I think it's gotten very mission focused and therefore more tailored.

MR. GARAMONE: Thank you, ma'am. Anything you'd like to say? Anything I missed?

MS. FLOURNOY: No. I would just say that, I mean, Africa tends to be too often overlooked, and I think it's a really important area for us to pay attention to longer term, and I think AFRICOM and the Department of Defense, more generally, have worked very hard to sort of plug in and support broader U.S. strategy towards Africa longer term.

(END)