When you borrow so much you can't pay it back, you damn well better be dictated to by the banks!

Why is it the banks fault when you borrow your prosperity instead of earning it?

EU has been a nuisance and interfering too much in other's business.

EU collapse will be good.

Most of the EU "world leaders" will have their hands tied and busy with more and more nations in PIIGS.

Sure just walk out on the EU. Then the EU farmer will say pay me up front in euro or dollars. Oh I forgot you can't borrow any and all you have is some pretty paper.... too bad you get to starve. And by the way you riot in the streets because you have no food and no tourists will come and give you any euro or dollars for your hotels.

Valhalla Phil

"When you borrow so much you can't pay it back, you damn well better be dictated to by the banks!

Why is it the banks fault when you borrow your prosperity instead of earning it?"

When a Bank keeps creating money & loaning you it's newly minted fiat Knowing you are unable to pay it back . Is it time to raise that pesky DEBT CEILING AGAIN? Why must they be made whole for BAD business decsions?

You seem to believe that the Banks control the planet ,oh wait they do because criminal thinking like yours let them.

FROM THE MOUTH OF A BANKER:

"Banking was conceived in iniquity and was born in sin.
The Bankers own the earth. Take it away from them,
but leave them the power to create deposits,
and with the flick of the pen they will
create enough deposits to buy it back again.
However, take it away from them, and
all the great fortunes like mine
will disappear and they ought to disappear, for
this would be a happier and better world to live in.
But, if you wish to remain the slaves of Bankers
and pay the cost of your own slavery,
let them continue to create deposits."

--- Sir Josiah Stamp (1880-1941)

President of the Bank of England & 2nd richest man in Britain

Source: Speaking at the Commencement Address of the University of Texas in 1927 (That is 2 years before their first engineered crash! Vallhalla Phil

FROM THE MOUTH OF THE SYNDICATE:
Who controls the food supply controls the people;
who controls the energy can control continents;
who controls the money can control the world.
Henery Kissinger, 1973

First of all the Federal Reserve is an INDEPENTDANT Agency and that means basically that there is NO other agency of government which can OVERRULE actions that we take.
Alan Greenspan Federal Reserve Chairman

From dead presidents when we actually had them:

“Whoever controls the volume of money in our country is absolute master of all industry and commerce…and when you realize that the entire system is very easily controlled, one way or another, by few powerful men at the top, you will not have to be told how periods of inflation and depression originate.” – President James Garfield, 2 weeks before his assassination.

Thomas Jefferson:

“The central bank is an institution of the most deadly hostility existing against the Principles and form of our Constitution. I am an Enemy to all banks discounting bills or notes for anything but Coin. If the American People allow private banks to control the issuance of their currency, first by inflation and then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the People of all their Property until their Children will wake up homeless on the continent their Fathers conquered.”

Startling isn’t it? Look around you; his worst nightmare is becoming our reality – on a global scale.

"Gentlemen! I too have been a close observer of the doings of the Bank of the United States. I have had men watching you for a long time, and am convinced that you have used the funds of the bank to speculate in the breadstuffs of the country.

When you won, you divided the profits amongst you, and when you lost, you charged it to the bank. You tell me that if I take the deposits from the bank and annul its charter I shall ruin ten thousand families. That may be true, gentlemen, but that is your sin!

Should I let you go on, you will ruin fifty thousand families, and that would be my sin! You are a den of vipers and thieves. I have determined to rout you out, and by the Eternal, (bringing his fist down on the table) I will rout you out."

From the original minutes of the Philadelphia bankers sent to meet with President Jackson February 1834, from Andrew Jackson and the Bank of the United States (1928) by Stan V. Henkels

Why does the theft of Nations from terrorist Banks continue unabated?

What is fraud except creating “value” from nothing and passing it off as something?

Frauds interlink and grow upon each other. Our debt-based money system serves as the fraud foundation. In our debt-based money system, debt must grow in order to create money. Therefore, there is no way to pay off aggregate debt with available money. More money must be lent into the system to make the payments for old debts. This causes overall debt to expand as new money for actual people (vs. banks) always arrives at interest and compounds exponentially. This process is called financialization.

Financialization: The process of making money from nothing in which debt (i.e. poverty, lack) is paradoxically considered an asset (i.e. wealth, gain). In current financialized economies “wealth expansion” comes from the parasitic taxation of productivity in the form of interest on fiat lending. This interest over time consumes a greater and greater share of resources, assets, labor, and livelihood until nothing is left.

Only in a debt-based money system could debt be curiously cast as an asset. We’ve made “extend and pretend” a quaint phrase for a burgeoning market for financial lying and profiteering aimed toward preventing the collapse of a debt- (or lack-) based system that was already doomed by its initial design to collapse. This primer will detail the major components and basic evolution of fake wealth creation, accelerating debt expansion, hollowing out of the economy, and inevitable financial implosion.

Stage one—Fiat money origination, multiplication, and distribution

The U.S. Federal Reserve System (“The Fed”): A private, non-transparent entity, formed in 1913, representing and serving private, profit-driven banks that creates money from nothing (fiat) and to which the U.S. government has delegated and effectively ceded its constitutional power to coin money.

The Fed essentially lends our “sovereign” public money to us at interest, paying for things like government debt with more debt, thus expanding debt. By contrast, the Fed currently gives away money to its constituent private banks at zero percent interest, allowing those banks to buy U.S. Treasury bonds, which yield a 2-3 percent interest mark-up to be paid by taxpayers, adding to citizen debt.

Fractional reserve: Private fiat fabrication of exchangeable public “money” as a bookkeeping entry through “multiplication” of public fiat held in private bank reserves. Holding 100,000 dollars of depositors’ money may allow me, as a bank, to lend out 1,000,000 dollars. By what authority? None, really, just my say-so and my action.

In the court case referenced in the heading quote, Justice Mahoney ruled against a bank acting in conjunction with the Federal Reserve Bank of Minneapolis in its efforts to foreclose upon and “buy” a U.S. citizen’s house by simply creating “the entire $14,000.00 foreclosure purchase in money or credit upon its own books by bookkeeping entry.” Further, “Mr. Morgan (the plaintiff/bank representative) admitted that no United States Law or Statute existed which gave him the right to do this.” (First National Bank of Montgomery vs. Jerome Daly)

Stage two—Delusional, unregulated value assignment, manipulation, and expansion

After money is created out of thin air, other market mechanisms have been propagated to magnify, funnel, and package value-from-nothing further still, creating financial vehicles that add more numbers without adding more value.

"TRUTH is the enemy of the STATE"
Paul Joseph Goebbels was a German politician and Reich Minister of Propaganda in Nazi Germany

“Truth hurts. Maybe not as much as jumping on a bicycle with a seat missing, but it hurts.”

-Naked Gun

Phil stated: "When you borrow so much you can't pay it back, you damn well better be dictated to by the banks!"

Are you forgetting, it was the politicians who borrowed that money, not the common people.

"Why is it the banks fault when you borrow your prosperity instead of earning it?"

Why would anyone with half a brain, loan money to anybody that is already buried over their heads in debt? Would you yourself loan money to a anyone who is one step from default, and you know that they have no way of repaying the old loans they had, before coming to you?

If you yourself already had more loans than you could ever think of repaying, and you were one step from bankruptcy, with very little or no hope at all of increasing your weekly income, I gather, that you would run out to borrow more money on top of what you now owe? If any bank ever did loan you money like that, like you, they would deserve to go under for being financially inept.

Notinthe1% . . . Is that you TrustVerify??

Regarding this Marxist s**t, DBinAkron has it right. Marxism had it's chance and the people were even poorer with the wealth concentrated in even fewer greedy people's hands.

I know many immigrants from former Socialist and Communist countries who will tell you they came to U.S. because of it's economic freedom and capitalism specifically So please stop with that economic propaganda. The banks are NOT an Evil force like you would have people believe,simply an Economic tool that has gotten out of control.

Mostof these same immigrants They happy to have access to banks here as opposed to what was available in their countries. They think it is great to get loans and They especially LOVE CREDIT CARDS!!!

"The banks are NOT an Evil force like you would have people believe,simply an Economic tool that has gotten out of control."

I am not led to believe anything. History and the elite criminal banksters involved have shown us that it always ends the same and you are diluted to believe otherwise. Or shall i say you believe their propaganda.

When the Bankers themselves tell you ,you still don't belive it?

Permit me to issue and control the money of a nation, and I care not who makes its laws.
Mayer Amschel Rothschild

Truth&Logic ,try using some as you are definitely part of the problem.

“Truth hurts. Maybe not as much as jumping on a bicycle with a seat missing, but it hurts.”

-Naked Gun

That is why you will not admit the problem because it goes against everything you have been led to believe. Well you have been lied too but you seem to like it that way.

“If one understands that socialism is not a share-the-wealth program, but is in reality a method to consolidate and control the wealth, then the seeming paradox of super-rich men promoting socialism becomes no paradox at all. Instead, it becomes logical, even the perfect tool of power-seeking megalomaniacs,” explained the late Gary Allen. “Communism or more accurately, socialism, is not a movement of the downtrodden masses, but of the economic elite.”

The people really do not benefit in this system but the leaders seem to do all right don't they? Russia, China,USA,England,Italy all socialist and all of their leaders are doing quite well. What about the people who have to pay for their decisions?
Put it on a credit card?

Trust . . Is that you?J? Socialism is not the way out of this mess. If it is then I hope the Syrizia party wins so the whole world can see the result of that experiment.

Also, not in the 1%, what political system are you proposing then?? I agree that the political system dictates how the countries finances are managed and spent.

@Valhalla,

If you take AMERICAN financial advice (as Greece did --- it relied on Moody's) and buy AMERICAN real estate derivitives (as Greece did on the advice of the French and German central banks) insured by an AMERICAN insurance company (AIG) then Greece's future was doomed by American banking interests.

I own a lot of stock in big banks.

Chris .. you can say that "Greece's future was doomed by American banking interests" only if you can prove that Greece was FORCED to accept the bank's advice. A bank might advise me to invest heavily in Confederate currency because it believes that the "south will rise again", but I'm the one at fault if I follow that advice.

I love the way The European Economists, especially the German ones, explain their
problems by saying things like " it would be like the USA having to bail out
Mexico." First of all, Mexico and the US have a Free Trade Agreement, and are not on
the same currency. We also maintain border controls. Germany knew full well that
there were financially troubled countries entering the established Euro zone - if
not, then they must all travel on their famous holidays through Europe with their
blinders on. I believe they thought that having a financial union would help settle
the inter-European conflicts that have kept them fighting and bickering for
Centuries. Financial unity without political unity is impossible in my opinion,
however, I do not have a Phd in Economics. What I do have, however is 14 years of
running an import/export company in the manufacturing sector with over 10 fortune
100 companies calling me a top tier supplier. I lived in Europe for four years,
travel there 3 x per year & have conducted over $30M in business between the US &
Euro Zone.
While Germany may be crying about the current problems, they weren't crying when the
Euro was 55% stronger than the dollar, causing US buyers of European goods and
manufacturing equipment to pay high prices. Their exports did not decline, and at a
rate of 1.40 on the dollar had some of the lowest unemployment figures on the
planet. Not foreseeing this, and failure to plan on their side is their problem. A
better comparison instead of bailing out Mexico would be the fact that the US
government buckled on the austerity measures they wanted to impose on the US banks
after the collapse of Lehmen Bros. One final point is a question for discussion,
(discussion - something Germany loves to do, but seemingly fails on acting properly
upon conclusion of discussion). If Germany lets the proverbial manure hit the fan,
the Euro value plummets to 1.12, 1.10, even parity - the value in purchasing their
exports, (remember, they are a totally export driven country), will fly through the
roof. They won't have enough people to keep up with demand, so they start using
cheap labor in the troubled countries to make their products. Look at Skoda, the car
company - Czech built, Volkswagen owned - same as a Passat, but much cheaper to
make. The Germans helped push through legislation that bolstered German production
in the medical field - Czech companies received millions of Euros to make medical
needles, with German supplied equipment, which allowed the Czech companies to make
their products 30-40% cheaper than the French or other European competitors. The
money went from EU coffers to the Czechs, and back to Germany. Meanwhile, the French
& Spanish medical manufacturers got the shaft. I wish them all the best of luck, but
you must sleep in the bed you make, and stop crying over your own spilled milk. This
is a problem that requires tourniquets, stitches and professional help. Eventually
they are going to run out of band-aids and the patient will bleed to death. $100
million is a band-aid on a tens of billion $ problem. Weren't these the same
economists saying that the Euro would be the new global reserve currency? Glad I
shorted it! I Feel sorry for those who believed the bobble headed Phd's and
politicians.

Machine . . It sounds like an example of what happens when Planned Economies interfere with free market capitalism and aren't exporting enough out of their zone to support all their economic parts?

Merkel and the rest of those EU/IMF goons are going to make Greece and eventually all in Europe who aren't rich pay anyway so Greece should vote for the "radical Left" and maybe one day be rid of them.

They aren't really that radical but they are probably the best the political system has to offer.

Anyone who thinks Greeks will be better off going back to the drachma must be smoking some really good stuff.

What interest rate do you think investors will demand on new Greek government bonds issued in drachmas instead of Euros, after the new government defaults on their existing obligations? They think times are tough now with reduced government borrowing, imagine what taxes and spending cuts will look like with nearly zero government borrowing.

Greeks are angry about the painful recession they've been in for quite some time now. But a post-default Greece without the Euro will be a far more miserable place, and in no time the Greeks will be longing for the good old days of 2012.

Archstanton 3.15

There you go off the deep end.

Merkel and the rest of those EU/IMF goons are going to make Greece and eventually all in Europe who aren't rich pay anyway…

Pay anyway, you say. What exactly are they paying? Perhaps what they owe? Oh wait, they can't pay what they owe because they don't have any money. Their solution is, of course, to borrow even more money, which they will never pay back.

They were irresponsible over the years borrowing money they could never pay back and spending money they didn't have, all in an effort to keep the masses happily supplied with their entitlements.

And you wonder why Merkel and the rest of those EU/IMF goons, as you call them, would demand some measure of fiscal responsibility from the Greeks before they throw even more money at them. Perhaps they don't want to see even more billions pissed away down that proverbial rat hole.

It looks like the Greeks chose to do the responsible thing and agree to pay their debts, instead of accepting the liberal leftist rhetoric about 'ignore the debt'.

It will be hard in the short term, but much less painful in the long term.

Chris-749391 "If you take AMERICAN financial advice (as Greece did --- it relied on Moody's) and buy AMERICAN real estate derivitives (as Greece did on the advice of the French and German central banks) insured by an AMERICAN insurance company (AIG) then Greece's future was doomed by American banking interests."

Nice try at a 'spin', but the Greek government was too busy borrowing money from others to 'invest' in American derivatives. It was 'investors' that took a hit, not borrowers.

Sorry to say, that while I am no fan of the socialist EU, I am even less of a fan of a(nother) world wide economic collapse (which could easily happen in the fallout of a Greek exit from the Euro zone), so I strongly support these election results.

This is GREAT news for the global economy (something I think will be reflected in Monday's market results), and will hopefully result in Greece eventually recovering from their debt crisis. The Greek economic downturn is not entirely of their own making and certainly not entirely a result of socialist policies, with unfair competition from Chinese shipping (China not playing fair on trade or industry? Who'da thunk it?) having a devastating effect on Greece's once great shipping industry, one of the primary engines of their economy.

I can understand why the Greeks voted this way since they were bombarded with threats and lies by their officials and officials of the EU (plus the media) and any of their choices involved more hard times (at least in the short term).

But Greece, Europe and the world are not going to get out of this by voting for the status quo as they have done.

The IMF, EU etc are servants of the bankers and investor class, the most greedy, ruthless and heartless people on the planet. Sociopaths you might say.

As long as these people run the world, which they do right now, things will be bad and on their way to much worse for the rest of humanity.

They need to be put back in their cages to serve humanity rather than rule and torture it as they were more or less from 1933 until the end of the 1970's.

''...I don't think the failed recipes of the left would get us out of this mess" He got it exactly right. No matter how they got into the mess, voting for the left now would never get them out of it.

Going back to the drachma Empress would have been a disaster. The currency would have been worth waaay less than the euro. That's why a lot of people there took their euros and stashed them in other countries.

While it probably saved a fiasco of possible contagion had the socialist won and pulled out, it does nothing to fix their problem. They promise to pay too many things that they cannot fund. Same problem we have i just hope someone will realize that before we get so far in debt we can't pay it back.

RoyWilson..... in the case of the Greek govt, the borrowers were also the investors. That's why the Greek govt and banks needed bailing out - if they default there would be a whole domino effect of banks and governments with exposure to the Greek bonds. And if all account holders make a run for their money those banks are further on the $#!_pile 'coz they may not be able to make good on those withdrawals nor borrow money as they have nothing to collateralize except a bunch of worthless bonds and derivatives.

This thing is bigger than bashing the left or the right with blame. Corporations are sitting on a mountain of cash and have been waiting it out for over 3 years to see where this is playing out.... hence the continued anemic recovery in the US. This thing is bigger than the pundits or the stumping politicos can fit into a soundbite for the average American to grasp.

I wonder if the Greeks had a flashback to the Deauville, France G-8 meeting and the G-8 leaders resolve to "overthrow uncooperative regimes by means of war" if the country refused to take on "austerity programs" ?

28 May 2011.....At the end of their two-day summit in the French resort city of Deauville, G8 leaders demanded an intensification of austerity programs across the globe. They also reiterated their resolve to overthrow uncooperative regimes by means of war.

Guess it is time for Merkel to announce an "European Political and Fiscal Union":

German Chancellor Angela Merkel has called for Europe to take a gradual path towards political union, frustrating the appeals of many of her colleagues for quick, bold moves to fight the continent's raging financial crisis.

Experts say the eurozone's structure is not sustainable because while 17 countries share the same currency and interest rates, national governments retain control of budget policies. That means economies are radically different. In times of economic stability that was not a problem, but as financial turmoil grew, the weaker economies lagged behind the stronger ones.

That's why European leaders, including Merkel, agree they need to work toward a fiscal union, in which governments pool their spending decisions and their debt responsibility. The question is how quickly that is achieved.

http://www.columbiadailyherald.com/sections/news/world/merkel-urges-gradual-political-union-europe.html

Talk about taking over the European countries Politically and Fiscally without firing a shot. There goes all of the European Nation's sovereignty and it will start with Greece.....tell them what to do politically and then take their finances and redistribute to those "poor" European Nations.

Whatever happens to the Greeks now is their own doing.

Didn't they learn from America's mistake of bailing out the banksters while letting everyone else suffer and pay for it?

They've made their own bed, now they have to lie in it.

the greek people choose crushing poverty and subservience to the wealthy.i can only imagine the bs programing the rich bombarded the greek people with.well they were sold a load of crap now theyll have to live with it.just like we were sold free trade/outsourcing.much like us i hope they can live with their lower standard of living.

This is what happens when decades of a welfare state lull citizens into the feeling that they are "entitled" to handouts from the government for nothing. The social programs and giveaways from the gov't in Greece are a disgrace and it's no wonder their economy is collapsing. Blame the banks all you like, but when austerity measures are brought to bear it is not the banks that are protesting, it's an entire citizenry that has become use to governments giving them things that the country could not afford. It serves as a cautionary tale for the US.

Four more years of Obama and his trillion dollar spending habits (like a child in a candy store) and there will be no more 'reverse the cycle' option. We will all be riding the express elevator to hell. Everyone middle class and below should start researching the Quaker lifestyle because that is how we will be forced to live.

Debi you didn't pay for anything unless your part of the 1%...

I love how the people of the USA act like they will be forking the bill, when I mean people, I mean joe schmoe who is considered middle class.

In the USA, those Rich people, pay-pay-pay over 95% of taxes at years end. 95%. So when the USA gets 1trillion in taxes 950billion came from the rich, the other 50billion came from the entire collective of 99%. Basically you 99% paid bill gates worth (actually less since he is worth nearly 60billion).

Get of your brainless mind wash, and realize your 99% pay very little compared to everyone else.

Sure you pay, but its like going to the movies and it costing $20, you pay a dollar, and complain that you had to fork the bill for the movie. I hate middle americans like you, and I am freaking POOOOOR.

Hello folks, the apparent winner of the Greek elections, the New Democracy Party, will try to form a coalition with the PASOK Party and this is what everyone is not betting on. The problem is that the PASOK Party has lobbed a grenade into the coalition discussion, announced by Katerina Diamantopoulou that Pasok will not join into a coalition government with the New Democracy Party unless Syriza also joins the coalition. Syriza stated moments ago it would not do this. The question then comes whether ND can form a government (150+ seats) with any of the other remaining parties including neo-Nazi New Dawn or the communists. The answer is most likely not so Greece again, for the moment, is nowhere. In other words, anyone hoping that Greece will promptly form a pro-bailout government will likely be disappointed. Then the New Democracy Party also campaigned on re-doing the terms of the EU bailout which Germany said earlier today would not be happening.

If you have noticed, there is no more panic in the people about our economic crisis. Why should there be? In other words, Greece is now America, where the vast majority of people also live on credit alone, and have taken up the following motto when dealing with banks: "you pretend to be solvent, we pretend to have money."

At the end of the day, it is all just one big global monetary circle jerk, only this time in reverse, as the snake of fractional reserve banking has finally started to eat its own tail. With people spending money they don't have, and in debt to their eyeballs to a banking system that itself is just as insolvent, is there any wonder that nobody really panics any more over daily threats the grand reset is finally coming?

We have convinced ourselves that the road to economic prosperity is to pay off our debt with more debt. The Greek elections may empower the Bernank to implement QE3 or 4 depending on whether or not you think the currency swaps and operation twist (selling short-term debt and buying longer-term bonds) constituted QE3. In any event with economic data signaling stall speed growth for the US, it looks like the Fed will lower its current 2012 growth outlook from 2.7% to 1.8%. This and the risks from the euro area debt crisis will allow the Fed to adopt QE3/4 at the June 20 FOMC (Federal Open Market Committee). It’s been estimated the Fed could extend operation twist by another $150bn, but the expectation is that the Fed will instead allow its balance sheet to expand a further $600bn, with purchases split 40/60% between MBS (mortgage backed securities) and Treasuries. Here we go again folks the purchase of toxic MBSes that will let the banks off the hook even further and another treasury debt bailout that you and I are ultimately liable for.

The fact of the matter remains the same, the majority of the economies are bankrupt and all the Federal Reserve whether it’s their European branch or if they create a “new super bank” knows how to do is print, print, print and then print some more. This allows the bankrupt countries to create all the schemes imaginable to loan money to each other to prolong the inevitable and inevitable it is!

For example: Of the 100 billion dollar Spain bailout, Italy has to provide 20 percent of the loan. Under the deal, Italy has to give Spain the loan for 3% but has to borrow the money on the markets at 7% to do this. You can’t make this stuff up, but this is the bizarro world economics Europe and the rest of the world has succumbed to.

The economic collapse we are witnessing has been brought to you by your friendly Federal Reserve and their fractional reserve banking fraud. It has finally reached the point that even the sheeple can’t deny!

elitewolverine:

"In the USA, those Rich people, pay-pay-pay over 95% of taxes at years end. 95%."

What school did you attend? The University of the 1%ers?

http://www.businessinsider.com/16-more-profitable-companies-that-pay-almost-nothing-in-taxes-2011-3

Mathew 19:21. Bitches.

This is only temporary relief!

The current economic mess are due to high oil price manipulations using Iraqi wars as a cover.

With sanctions on Iranian oil, oil prices have already shot up from around $40s in 2009 to current $100.

Wait for the impacts!

EU will not be there in a decade.

@Empress: Just what has the EU done to "opress" the Greeks. I guess all those times the EU bailed Greece out was just "opression".

@: Only in America: Yes it was the politicians who borrowed the money, but it was the common people who elected them. That's like saying the overwhelmingly liberal population of voters in California have had no hand in their current financial troubles.

Hello argumentative, apparently you have no idea how money is created or who creates it do you? You appear to be part of the Democrat Republican blame game crowd. Do you really believe the peasants have a seat at the table of the elite? If you do you have been well indoctrinated. And don't give me that is the only leverage we as citizens have to affect change, because it is not!

With the type of logic you are spouting you probably would be the first to bend over at the airports and public venues if the presstitutes reported they had apprehended a suppository bomber.

FSper . . some good lessons!! I lived much the same way when I was young (except I think I had a couple dollars a week allowance for my work). And it would never have occurred to me to call my brother or sister who loaned me money a Criminal, Thug, or hold them responsible for my insolvency!!

To me a loan is a huge responsibility. I worked my way through college (3 minimum wage campus jobs at one point). Would never have occurred to me that government should bail out my failed mortgage or "forgive" my student loan debt!

The problem isn't government spending, it's an economy that consumes more than it produces. Govt debt is a consequence of a trade deficit. The government reflates the money supply by spending new money into the economy. In doing this it replaces the money that left due to the trade deficit, with money created by taking on debt. You can't just cut govt spending and think the problem will go away. You must first fix the trade deficit. Nobody seems to recognize this - which is so bizarre.

You can't just cut govt spending and think the problem will go away. You must first fix the trade deficit.

Which is why that Greece will never really recover, I believe, until it leaves the Euro zone. Its exports are not competitive against Germany and France and it has no business being in the same currency union, especially since the Germans will ensure that Euro monetary policy will meet its own needs (which are far different than those of the southern European countries).

The problem isn't government spending, it's an economy that consumes more than it produces.

WRONG! The state consumes more than it brings in...that's what you should have said. Economics is the atudy of distributing finite goods most efficiently to infinite wants and needs. No economy produces more than it's population wishes to consume, and no economy can consume what it does not have via production. It's like saying you produced 5 acres of corn but consumed 6 arces of corn...it's impossible!!! You act as if trading one celery stalk for an additional acre worth of corn from overseas makes you poorer! That's what a trade deficit is...trading something your local economy does not require (and therefore has less value) for something that has more value in your economy (and therefore is worth more to you than what you're trading away). That's why both parties profit from the trade, and why both economies are enriched from the trade...both items have more marginal utility elsewhere!

Econ 101. Their state is consuming more than they take in...they can either cripple their economy with even higher taxes, or they cut spending. They refuse either for the most part. It's hillarious how the leftist who wrote this article says Greece suffered from "auterity"; it never tried austerity! Austerity means balancing your budget (they never did that) via major spending cuts or spending freezes (they never did that - all they did were minor spending cuts and still had year to year increases overall), and tax cuts (which they didn't do). Austerity does not mean minor spending cuts (or in this case, cuts in the proposed increases so that year to year the budget still grows), tax increases, and unbalanced budgets remaining.

Austerity, as economists define it (not how politicians and "economist" hacks like Krugman and Reich define it), has shown time and again to work more effectively and cause shallower recessions than half-a$$ed "austerity" this article complains about, and definately better results than bailouts and stimulus plans.

BTW, look up the "fallacy of trade deficits"...there is no such problem. It's been proven for more than a century, and for several decades with reliable data. Protectionism hurts economies longterm, doesn't help them (except short term). The idea that borders matter to trade is nonsense. Economists don't talk about borders except where people (like governments) ask for such arbitrary data. It's not relevant, ans hasn't been since Bastiat. "Trade deficits" are just nationalist BS that's good for politics...in economics is causes no problem. It's actually an effect...the richer the economy and people, the larger the trade deficit. All trades are perceived to be profitable for both parties, so you gain from trade logically, you don't lose anything. The idea you bring in too much stuff by giving away things with less marginal utility in the market in which you live is CRAZY. Logically this makes both parties better off, especially your local national economy. Trade deficits contain little to no DEBT. Look it up. The only debt included in trade deficits are from bankruptcies (rare) and government borrowing (not rare). The government is NOT borrowing to cover some trade inequity...they are borrowing to cover the spending they do not have revenues to finance! Third World nations and those with bad economies (like Japan's Lost Decade) have trade balance or surplus. China would be growing a bit slower, but longterm would be more sustainable, if they stopped their protectionist policies, and just allowed free trade (not to be confused with managed trade ala "Free Trade" aggreements, which I'm against). Trade surpluses are a sign of a badly managed or poor economy, and trade deficits (or foreign exchange surpluses, alternatively) are a sign of well managed economies and rich societies. It's been this way since we started keeping data.

So you're wrong...you can cut government spending and think the problem will go away...as that is the entire problem. National debt has nothing to do with trade! For God's sake, pick up an economics textbook! National debt is about government expenditures vs government revenues!

No seems to recognize THIS fact, while many seem to recognize your BS "facts". That's the problem...mosy people are ignorant as hell on economics.

proindividual: some of your posts give me hope. It doesn't matter what country you are in, the worship of 1 or 2 political parties is what will be the downfall of us. People who vote for a party of candidate base don what the party will 'give' them. Idiots running the economic plans. Manipulating prices on oil. Big government. Greece is headed our way, but most people will still demand access to a cheap big screen TV instead of voting smart individuals into office.

Hm gcv, you cannot exclude the government from blame for negative balance of trade. I'll give you an example; russia had a crop failure and needed wheat. American farmers had plenty and were going to sell some of the surplus to russia. Our president, good old lbj, would not allow it and very few times since, have we ever had a positive balance of trade.

Additionally, government regulations and taxation has made this country un-friendly for industry, naturally the industry went overseas and took the jobs with it.

Spending more than you earn, over a long enough period of time will bankrupt anyone or any country.

Mathew 19:21, bitches.

This is a bit more complicated with many factors around. Many are not controllable.

"eased fears of an imminent Greek exit from Europe's joint currency."

It is only matter of time before Greece exits from EU.

Greece has marched downwards beyond repair.

This govt can only deliver lectures and not jobs, growth, justice and security!

ok and the US is letting the fed borrow from itself interest free then "loaning" it to the US with "interest" .... just how is that sustainable ....?

Other alternative news sources in the US have covered it heavily. MSNBC, liberals and the mainstream media mocked them and called them "haters", "fear mongers" and "conspiracy theorists".

Wow just had to get the right wing catchall word liberal in there. Here is some education for ya. Right wingers are so far to the right even way right leaning concervatives are now liberals and all the rest are to including moderates both righ leaning and left leaning. By the time you get to a real liberal which are only about 15% of the voting public you have passed 70% of the population. Right wing definition of liberal is anyone who is not nutty enough to agree with them They are only 15% of our population and spread lies like they wer 80%

There is more informed information for parties running in this election. Germany is in, but they want, in return, a part of Greece to own. Who didn't see that coming, LOL. Soviets are in also. Greece is such a small country, and people are scrambling, because this "little" country, is changing the world. Duh. Seems that happened eons ago. Just to give everyone a heads up, this started a few years ago and what would you figure. The U.S. putting it all on Greece. Now if you read the story, you will see what caused the onset of the "ripple effect." Think of it as a tsunami.

The bankruptcy of U.S. bank Lehman Brothers in September 2008 triggered a global financial slump that indebted western nations are still struggling to recover from.

Leroy; Whether Golden Dawn get into parliament of not, you will hear about Greek Neo Nazis.

Fascism is defined as: "An authoritarian and nationalistic right-wing system of government and social organization." The connection to Nazis is a little specious and dated. You can name scores of fascist governments what were not Nazi --- and it is exactly the type of government espoused by the Tea Party.

Golden Dawn is virtually identical to the Tea Party in philosophy --- anti-immigrant, xenophobic, isolationist, and above all anti-government. The major difference is that here the Tea Party is mostly poorly-educated older people who are no longer economically active. In Greece it is younger people, including the well-educated, who are not economically active because of the uber-unemployment that over 45% for under-35 college graduates in Greece.

Fascism is defined badly. It's authoritarian and big government, therefore not really small government right wing. It's mostly corporatist or national socialist (Nazi), so not free market or state capitalist right wing. It's far more left (big govt and anti-capitalist) than it is right.

BTW, we live in a fascist country right now (America). We use Third Way economics, aka Keynesianism, aka Mixed Economics, and we have a near total police state (the most imprisoned nation on Earth, mostly for nonviolent crimes, drone surveillance without probable cause or warrant, self written "search awarrents" by federal agents, Torture, constant wars of aggression and occupation (usually over oil prices) that no one can keep up with how many (Syria I read on CNN is now being attacked by us...where's the news on that?), warrantless wiretaps, internet controls and tracking, and the list of tyranny goes on and on). It won't be long before dissidents like me are rounded up...hence I'm moving out of the country in December.

Proindividual,

Dead on. What part of our national debt is from wars paid on the national credit card. Probably all of them including interest that's probably huge. Was it Finland that was the only country to ever pay us back for war goods we loaned them.

Greek Skinheads???Greeks are very hairy people. Somethings wrong here.

Are you ignorant Leroy2112? Never mind, I already know the answer...It's obvious in every post I've read. Your Farrakhan avatar gives your racism away.

Your wrong in so many ways. The most obvious is It is MALCOLM X.

There is no difference....both are/were ignorant racist, just like you...

Did I say anything racist? You are trippin. What racist thing did I say?

C'mon Leroy, you should know by now..... anyone who isn't a flaming liberal is a racist.

It's not Malcolm X either, it's John Little.

Leroy; Greeks are typically hairy, but a hair clippers and a straight edge could leave Ted Nugent's head lokking like an onion. Duh!!!

@Angela

Malcolm X's expressed beliefs changed substantially over time. As a spokesman for the Nation of Islam he taught black supremacy and advocated separation of black and white Americans—in contrast to the civil rights movement's emphasis on integration. After breaking with the Nation of Islam in 1964—saying of his association with it, "I was a zombie then ... pointed in a certain direction and told to march"—and becoming a Sunni Muslim, he disavowed racism and expressed willingness to work with civil rights leaders, though still emphasizing black self-determination and self defense.

Note the bold text. (Horrible comparison)

@Everyone else.

Leroy is a known racist and bigotted troll. One only need look at his prior posts to know that. Don't give him your attention as he doesn't deserve it.

Slander.

Not all, in fact not most, skinheads are racist, dude. Look it up. The skinhead movement originated in reggae and punk, among working class people (who kept their hair short for safety because of thier industrial machisnist work).

Look up R.A.S.H. (Red and Anarchist Skinheads) - it's an anti-racist group who beat up neo-nazis and assorted racists. They are LEFT skinheads, not right.

Oh nevermind...continue the cultural ignorance.

Paratroopers, the terrain in Greece doesn't lend itself to large scale armored maneuvers.
Kind of like Afghanistan with better looking goats.

And the Germans took the paratroopers chutes from them after they had 50% casualties in a jump on Crete. Have they been reactivated?

Agree! FYI - Greece has all ready reduced it's minimum wage by 22%. Estonia by 11%. This may well be coming to America. this IS Obama helping the "poor" and "middle-class".

Pensions and healthcare is what kills budgets. Payroll is nothing.

The problem with Greece is the same problem in most countries like it...the government doesn't collect enough taxes to pay for the 'lifestyle' (aka welfare) the populace has become accustom to. You can't continuously burn money for people who aren't producing anything but mouths to feed from the people who do. It's not sustainable. Greece has been doing this for generations, and the world's economic depression helped shove it over a cliff. Our country is going the same way. We need to stop paying for the breeders who wont work and/or contribute for their own lifes and the children they produce.

And, that's just the START (but one of the biggest parts) of the blood suckers who need to be plucked off the back of the workers...

Pensions and healthcare is what kills budgets

Sure...Please tell me that again when you are 80, and in need of a triple bypass.

This is the deversion the people who are paid to post use to get the heat off of the rich aholes who collapsed the world economy with their get richer Ponzi scheme called derivitives. Lehman bros defaulte on payoffs totalling 350 billion dollars. All the banks in America "absorbed" or are absorbing the same type of losses. Since they are doing that they are lending less and the economies of of the countries involved in this are suffering. Its like progress stopped and is waiting for them to pay off both the debt from borrowing to stay afloat and the debt incurred from the crazy scheme that put the entire world in the barrell. If greece defaults there goes Italy and spain and then the dominoes begin to fall and the world goes into a massive recession/depression. All brought on not by social issues but something called credit default swaps. In America they tried to blame the collapse on sub prime lending which turned out to be less than a tenth of 1% of the total lending in America ignoring the fact it was a conservatives policy not Liberals.

http://georgewbush-whitehouse.archives.gov/news/releases/2002/10/20021015-7.html

Greed got us where we are that and the New world order. Time to back off both that and the Euro. One size does not fit all.

"Sure...Please tell me that again when you are 80, and in need of a triple bypass."

And I gather you can explain why the costs of health care continues to go up so high, that the common retired, or disabled person, anlong with those who still have a job, can't afford to pay for such things, but yet, those extra costs are now being passed onto everyone else who is still working, as though they can afford this extra tax burden? When does it end? Why isn't health care costs kept down low enough for all people to afford? You do understand, that as long as the costs of health care, and everything else continues to climb without any end, that eventually, taxes will not even be enough to cover these things. You can't expect tax money to cover social programs, as long as you continue to create more and more of those programs to the point, where anyone working for an income to live on, will be a thing of the past. I gather that this is what you and the government want, a completely socialist state?

@ Only in America:

A PENSION is something that you EARNED working all the years that you were able to contribute TO OTHER OLDER PEOPLE'S INSURANCE AND DISABILITY.

This generation of "Conservatives" think that old people, disabled people and anybody else that can't pay for health care should just die. But they are so interested in saving the life of an unborn baby?

Please make up your mind. If we, as a society, do not take care of our old and disabled, then who says that anybody should be there FOR YOU?

I gather you can explain why the costs of health care continues to go up so high

Because in this country the health of others is a BUSINESS. And the GOP wants to keep it that way by telling you that making it affordable is BAD for business. Of course it is. The health of a nation, and Education SHOULD NOT be a business. If you call that "socialism" then so be it.

When are you people REALLY are going to show that you can think about your fellow men and women? The "me first" posts here are incredible from the "Conservatives" that care so much about the "unborn". Of course, that happens until YOU, the "Conservative" that wants to eliminate the social programs, are the one who is going to the hospital on Medicaid.

Only in America, I don't hear of any problems with public healthcare in Sweden, or Norway, or Germany, or Switzerland, or Finland, or any number of other countries that have decided that access to healthcare is a basic human right. You do realize that private healthcare is quickly becoming a spectacular failure. Cost have been spiraling out of control here, but that is because of greed. Somewhere along the line the health care industry is going to have to change and realize they need to take a pay cut like everyone else. You can't expect to raise prices and premiums as long as people's incomes keep getting smaller and smaller. You can't keep telling people they are too poor to live, something will give and it should be the incomes of the 1 percent. However people like yourself will scream about evil socialism, well guess what our current strategy has worked like ----. Capitalism by itself doesn't work either. It's time to get past the talking points and come up with a real sustainable economic strategy that doesn't take us back to the 1800s.

Your right healthcare has become a business. It is big business with big dollars. My doctors message always says thank you for your business. It has become so greedy that those who cannot afford it can lay down and die as my brother-in-law did when he contracted cancer. No money or insurance then you do not get the proper treatment and you die. They had insurance but the insurance they both had from work did not cover anything. My sister depleted her 401k trying to save her husband and they both had insurance that they paid for out of their pocket at work that did not even help them. They never got any hand outs or sympathy from the medical people . It was always money first.

This is the deversion the people who are paid to post use to get the heat off of the rich aholes

Nice conspiracy theory, dude. Nice story, bro. You're an idiot if you think anyone who disagrees with you is a paid poster...JFC.

Ctrl - P

So you know exactly what the Prresident is going to do? My my now tell us who is going to win this yeqars world series...

breadex

lol loved your post.

So you know exactly what the Prresident is going to do? My my now tell us who is going to win this yeqars world series...

I know what the President will do...be a tyrant, just like Bush was, and Romney will be if he gets in. They're all tyrants, you blind mouse. Stop this ingroup/outgroup psychological flaw you keep perpetuating. There is no two sides, it's a false paradigm. There are many sides, and these tyrants don't represent any of the sides that matter. Hence why they try to trap people like you in these false dilemmas of either/or...to avoid bringing real issues that matter to the table for discussion AT ALL.

@Time4aPurge Ok, so normally I don't comment in here however, YOU are an idiot. You don't know squat about financial movement clearly. The fluctuations in the market don't have @!$%# to do with Obama. It isn't Obama spending in the first place it is Congress. The Congress passes ALL the spending and it is currently at it's LOWEST pace of increase in 30 years. Hmmm, "Not once did the Feds tell the banks (and they could have) that if they invest in Greece, they are assured of losing money." Gee, aren't you another one of those guys that will turn around and tell us that it's the consumers fault for not reading the predatory loan paperwork and they should have known better?Why does the government need to tell a multi national bank what is and is NOT a risky venture? They make BILLIONS to KNOW that!!! Get a clue, realize that regardless of what you think you know, this mess is NOT Obama's fault, period.

You are the "King" heh? A stupid one at that. You are one of those that that just want to spread hate, but blacks always think they know everything. But they know nothing. Just how to try and get something for nothing.

racist skipster.

Racist skipster! Stated by one who uses pretty much the ideal in racism as his monogram....Malcom X! The issue is as always, perverted to your racist agenda and therefore degraded. Economy and the death of it.......remember? But your atatement about the healthcare and pensions being a killer is just too comical even for you! So, what you're saying is that when you get your 20 in you'll just get another job? And if you get injured on that job you'll just wither away and not ask for the care you worked for? Verbal vomit and keyboard bravado is kinda cool for the ignorant and silly! And you do a good job of maintaining your status quo!

You think I am really Malcolm X. Wow.

Malcolm X renounced his racist beliefs before he died...hence why he was murdered.

Gosh darn it FSper . . . WOULD YOU RUN for President please???

Amen F Sper !!!

Run for President of Greece!

I hugged a friend and washed my car, so Greece should be on the road back.

Your heart is in the right place, but your economics suck. Going back to barter, de-specializing back into everyone farming instead of a few specializing in it, and the idea physical work needs to be done to generate value are all WRONG. That would tank an economy, not help it. Barter is woefully inefficient, hence humans invented money as a medium of exchange like 200,000 years ago. Salt, gold, sea shells were all money for this purpose. Paper money can't last when it's not receipt or check for something (like a hard commodity), but govts can't decide what that backing should be or it will collapse...the market has to decide what it trusts most via currency competition. Specialization is the major difference between technologically savvy nations with good economies overall and wealth, and 3rd Word hellholes (or stagnant and faltering economies of the 1st or developing world). Inteelectual work also generates value, in fact it usually generates more (hence why our species is so much more dominate than others). No physical work is required to add value.

I'm with you on work ethic...but leave the economics to the experts.

Greece and many EU nations state of affairs are going out of control.

The "globalization" has created a lot of these problems. The idea of creating one single currency for everybody was BAD from the beginning. It's like the US would ask Canada and Mexico to convert their money into US dollars.

That is why the British were smart not to join them.

Mexico would take advantage of that for a few years. The corruption would kill the deal. That is what happened there. They were doing ok for many years with their own money, because they survived from tourists. These places have absolutely NO infraestructure or manufacturing.

Tommy, Greece leaving the EU on its own probably will not be enough to bring down the Euro. I agree with you that Spain may be a bigger worry. The WSJ has printed a lot of articles and op eds regarding the fact that Spain is a much larger economy and could bring down the European Union.

The other concern is the $6.2 trillion the US has invested to shore up the European economies; again, the WSJ is concerned that failure to repay that debt could lead to severe inflation in the US.

But I the U.S. TAXPAYER Don't want to LOAN any more money to Europe right now!!

Who loaned them the $6.2 trillion?? Obama and TIMMY GEITHNER??

Yeah here is the catch 22 truth and logic if Europe falls they fall on us that is why there doing it, personally I woulden't give them any more money either it's not helping at this point, it will only help if they did austerity in the form of cutting but cut tax's and deregulate to get there busniess back together but Europe is not going to do it were just throwing money away. Better to use that money to keep are house together when they fall.

Lazier conservatives along with Saudis, oil companies, bankers, speculators and manipulators of oil prices higher and higher killed Greece and many more.

I won't add "proud" as I am one of the conservatives!

Lazy liberals killeed Greece. I hope they are proud.

WOW! you people don't think that you have enough people here in the US to call "lazy", just because that person disagrees with your mental frame of mind. Your idea of "lazy"depends on what side of your mouth you are talking.

You go on, and call the Greeks "lazy liberals" Never mind the amount of suicides and massive brain power that the country is suffering. You don't even know what it is that you are writing. If would be nice of you to stop a moment and reflect, before you write so many nasty comments that have absolutely no foundation.

you are right,

I just read where a 60 year musician from Greece couldn't feed him or his elderly mom and he took her up onto the roof of their home and both jumped . this is not a joke it really happened. this is so sad.

and yet we all sit back and watch the wealthy keep sucking from the economy and not putting it back into circulation. why are not the ones with millions helping out?

GREED is going to ruin the world.

I wouldn't even engage with Leroy's comments. Very typical of the entire whining, complaining, loathsome right wing with absolutely no merit and no facts.

GREED is going to ruin the world.

Bingo!!

THE STATE is going to ruin the world.

FYP.

"Lazier conservatives along with Saudis, oil companies, bankers, speculators and manipulators of oil prices higher and higher killed Greece and many more"

Actually oil prices are artificially low due to our military's mass murder, occupation, and overthrows of regimes that are no threat to us militarily. If we stopped interfering in the Mid East (which I wish we would), oil prices would skyrocket. We keep oil prices below market value at the point of a gun. Everyone knows this, and the Pentagon admits it's one of their main objectives and jobs.

So thank conservatives if you like cheap oil...moron.

There's no bogeyman in grandma or anyone else buying oil expecting it to go up in price so they can profit...that's "speculation". They cause the price to further raise via extra demand...now they're "manipulating the price". It's a nonsense propaganda talking point. No one cheers for "speculators" when they drive prices down by selling, which is also logically speculation on prices. Stop blaming gamblers for making bets, and start waking the hell up. Stop listening to idiots on FOX, MSNBC, and CNN..they're morons. All you're going to do is be a moron to, if that's where you get your dumbass point of view.

There is nothing lazy about wars of aggression and occupation. There is nothing lazy about Saudi oppression of their people. There is nothing lazy about trading stocks and trying to make money doing it. There is nothing lazy about running a bank if it's successful as long as the govt gets out of it and stops bailing them out when they screw up (hence, End the damn FEDeral Reserve system).

I wish the war policy was lazier, even though that means higher oil prices, logically. I want the Saudies to be more lazy so they oppress less (but I wouldn't force kids into war over it, or force people to fund that war against their will via taxes because of MY opinion). All the rest of it, I don't want to be lazy...because I'm not an idiot.

So go thank your conservative "enemies" for those artifically low oil prices you enjoy (but apprently are too ignorant to realize are lower than the market would naturally dictate). Stop your ignorant whining and start facing reality, dip.

What a joke some people are.

F conservatives, and liberals, and progressives...it's their combined ignorance and lack of ethics (aggression against foreign people on one side, aggression against domestic people and their property via cheeleading for extortion - tax - on the others) that are destroying the world and making us all tax cattle to the mass murdering state (tax farmers). We are becoming feudal serfs to the state because of people like YOU.

ProIndividual:

Give us a break!

Before 1991 Iraqi war, oil price was hardly $30. During 2003 Iraqi wars, it shot up as high as $145.00.

It is only oil and auto industries and their lobbys are not permitting substitutes for oil.

In 1910s itself, some tried for substitutes for oil in Detroit. They were bankrupted by oil and auto industries might.

As an engineer and IT person, I am not that dumb!

If humans could go to moon, what is the big deal about oil?

Stock market Up? Or down?

You can bet on it!

what is a lazar?

Your dad wants his computer back....

Maybe we can 'sell one of our states' to China too? I recommend one of those "RED" states in the south. You know, one that always votes for the GOP, but collects the single largest amounts of public welfare.

Can you offer that to Romney? He can use it as part of his "The United States of Corporate America"

We should sell the rest of California. China and Mexican cartels are in a race to buy it up already.

ItsAboutTime:

"The United States of Corporate America"

I love liberals who will buy a computer....made by a corporation...pay a montly fee to an ISP....set up by a corporation...and use a free blog...provided by a corporation...so they can bitch about corporations.

You know, one that always votes for the GOP, but collects the single largest amounts of public welfare.

That welfare that liberals are always trying to increase and get as many people as they can dependent on the government.

ConservativeNotRepublican

and I love conservative non republicans, who buy a computer, made by an american corporation, that outsourced the job to China (with one of the worst civil and human rights records on the planet, with who we already have an imbalance of trade, and cares nothing about the pollution in the environment), that pays its employees pennies on the dollar, and receives tax credits (resulting in higher taxes for american citizens), using corporate lobbyists to ensure they receive can get even lower taxes and not pay their fair share, and then whines and complains when a "liberal" calls em out on it. :-).

That welfare that liberals are always trying to increase and get as many people as they can dependent on the government.

and a conservative, non republican, whom if did their homework, would realize we spend more on corporate and military welfare programs than we do on social programs in the United States of America. I must have missed that part of our government that says "we the people and Corporations". Oh wait, corporations are people right......

Have a great day... "I'm an ultra conservative and really a republican that is afraid to admit it".

- Signed the "liberal" Democrat

its about time 3704531

I see your a liberal democrat and I happen to be a conservative democrat

if we were to sell a state it has to be California for the following reasons

1] you sell losers not winners

2] their infrastructure problems

3] their gang problems

4] their minority problems (social welfare)

5] the LAPD

6] finally the debt problem

I'm actually a moderate democrat. That's another story though

California (despite it's challenges), would rank 8th in the world for the largest GDP. Definitely not a state to sell.

Now Mississippi or Alabama (Which are red states) would be a good sell:

http://www.economist.com/blogs/dailychart/2011/01/comparing_us_states_countries

ItsAbouTime: I'm not the one bitching about corporations. YOU ARE. Also, you only covered one third of the equation....you conveniently left out the IPS and the blog providers.

As far as my computer, I own a Dell. Very few multi component products today are 100% American. That's just the way it is, but if you care to read, here is some information on Dell. As I said, no, it's not 100% American, but then again, very little in the computer industry is.

But I noticed that you have no problem being a hypocrite by using a computer, ISP or blog....all available because of those eeevvilll corporations. Why don't you stand up for the courage of your convictions and quit using all three of those things?

Dell facilities in the United States are located in Austin, Texas; Nashua, New Hampshire; Nashville, Tennessee; Oklahoma City, Oklahoma; Peoria, Illinois; Hilsboro, Oregon (Portland area); Winston-Salem, North Carolina; Eden Prairie, Minnesota (Dell Compellent); and Miami, Florida. Facilities located abroad include Penang, Malaysia; Xiamen, China; Bracknell, UK; Manila, Philippines^[47] Chennai, India;^[48] Hortolandia and Porto Alegre, Brazil; Bratislava, Slovakia; Łódź, Poland,^[49] Panama City in Panama, Dublin and Limerick, Ireland.^[50]

The US and India are the only countries which have all of Dell's business functions and provide support globally: Research and Development, manufacturing, finance, analysis, customer care.^[51]

ItsAboutTime: You also missed that part of the Constitution that says "we will provide anything and everything to everybody that the federal government deems necessary".

You missed that part, of course, because it doesn't exist, except in the mind of a liberal. You also missed that part of Article 1, Section 8 that specifically states that the military is an absolute mandate of the government.

(But you'll get no argument from me that there is an absolutely huge amount of spending on the military that could be cut as well)

And for the record, I'm also a HUGE proponent of getting rid of ALL corporate welfare. BUT, I suspect, unlike you, I do not count "tax breaks" as welfare. The money a corporation makes belongs to them first. Not the government. The government can not "give" what does not belong to them in the first place. Letting a company keep what they have legally and rightfully earned is NOT welfare.

Now, if you count corporate welfare as writing a government check to some company to develop a product even though there is no demand for it, then I'm right there with you. If by welfare you mean a company getting money from the government for so called "grant, demonstration projects, earmarks etc.", then I'm right there with you as well. If you mean a company, who is profitable on their own, getting government money for "business development" in foreign countries, then I'll pick up a picket sign and march right beside you on that one.

However, liberals are just going to have to get over this notion that the money a corporation (or an individual) makes belongs to the government first, and that they are somehow getting "welfare" just because the government doesn't forcibly take it from them to begin with.

ConservativeNotRepublican

Wow.... first, I am impressed by two very long comments.

First, I made my own computer. I bought each part that comes with it. Like you, parts of it did come from other nations, so its not 100% american made by parts. However, its 100% put together by an American.

As for the website here on MSNBC, that is maintained by staff in the United States. Do your homework there and you should come to the same conclusion. Now, since MSNBC is owned by GE, then you can easily do more homework though, and see the parent "corporation" does indeed have thousands of employees in other countries.

There is no part of the US Constitution that explicitly states "We will provide anything and everything to everybody that the federal government deems necessary". Article 8 does have statements about the US Military. It also talks about post offices, roads, etc. etc. I have personally read the Constitution in DC twice, and I have a BA In geography and political science. I am well versed in this document.

Tax Breaks are WELFARE. End of story. Why should an Oil corporation who is already making record profits get a tax break? Explain to me how I should pay more in taxes ( and all Americans) more here? This does not create more jobs and its certainly NOT lowering the price of gas at the pump. Look at the entire agriculture industry. Both bush and Obama wanted to 'get rid' of the subsidies there, and both failed. Why do they get a tax break for sending american jobs to other countries. That's WELFARE.

I do agree, that there is no reason to give $$ to a corporation, to create a product, that there is no demand for whatsoever.

No, I don't believe that any $$ a corporation or individuals makes must go to the Government first. That's our federal system (full of conservatives, moderates, liberals or any other term you want to use), that set it up that way. I do believe in people paying their fair share of taxes, end of story.

I am not a liberal, if you have read any of my other comments, its very clear I am a moderate. I do not believe in social welfare programs as a way of life no more than I do corporate welfare. I do not support corruption and greed in the unions anymore than I support it with lobbyists, pac groups, and members of congress. I am pro choice, but also pro death penalty. I support illegal immigration provided they are on the path to american citizens and they are NOT entitled to receive any tax payer programs until they are an american citizens. I can go on if you like..

ItsAboutTime: Wow, where to begin. You've read the Constitution in DC twice? Great, I have a copy of it here with me that I refer to all the time that is tattered and dog eared. A degree in political science does not make you a Constitutional scholar, anymore than my degree in business makes me one.

The fact of the matter is that you don't have to have a degree at all to be able to understand the Constitution. So, while I'm gratified by your education, it does not give you any special authority to claim superior comprehension of the document over and above anyone else who might not have any type of degree at all.

One can ONLY claim tax breaks are welfare if they believe that they money belongs to the government first. And it is quite apparent that's exactly what you believe. The Constitution, which you claim such familiarity with, grants the government the ability to collect taxes, but it gives no authority to collect taxes on the notion that someone should be taxed more because someone else thinks they make too much. That is purely a liberal philosophy.

Taxes are for funding government, not controlling the amount of income someone gets to keep, nor to control behaviors of the people. Liberals love to use the tax code explicitly for those purposes. You, by your own admission think tax breaks are "welfare", and yet, you claim you're not a liberal. That's pretty funny.

47% of the working population of this nation pay NO federal income taxes, and if they do, that money is given back to them in the form of a refund, or when they retire through SS or medicare. In any event, the degree to which those funds are stolen by congress to fund the government only goes to put more debt on my kids because the damn government can't get it's fiscal act together.

But you tell me, how is zero, zip, nada, nothing a fair share of anything? 47% contribute NOTHING to the expense of the military or the day to day operations of the government. And yet people like you want other to pay even more, even if they're already paying the majority of the taxes to begin with.

You complain about jobs, and then seemingly can't connect the dots that might cause someone to think, "hey ya know, we have the most burdensome regulartory environment in the world, coupled with the highest corporate tax rate in the world, along with the most byzantine tax code in the world....hhhmmm I may take my business someplace else in the world because there are far too many in the USA who think I exist to pay taxes to the federal government". Go look in the mirror if you'd like to see one of those people.

You say you believe in people paying a fair share. According to whom? You embrace this notion that taxes exist to make sure people pay a fair share, not fund the government. That's where your logic goes off the rails because there is NOTHING in the Constitution regarding "fair share". And the reason is because a "fair share" is NOT the purpose of taxes to begin with.

As I've posted many times before: I do not exist to serve the state. America is NOT the damn federal government. My life does not revolve around worrying whether the putrid federal government is confiscating enough of what someone else has earned.

First, I do not claim to be a top of the line scholar on the US Constitution. I'll leave that to you conservatives who think they know it all, but clearly do not. I have I have read it twice in DC (you know, in the National Archives???), but have read it a lot more and studied it as well. I am not the standard IGNORANT Conservative YUPPIE.

Taxes are for funding government, not controlling the amount of income someone gets to keep, nor to control behaviors of the people. Liberals love to use the tax code explicitly for those purposes. You, by your own admission think tax breaks are "welfare", and yet, you claim you're not a liberal. That's pretty funny.

LOL. You think you know me that well? You think I see the tax code as a way to 'control peoples behavior and their income". Have we met? Do you know me personally? Or do you just LUMP me into the "liberal" category simply because I refuse to submit to your "Corporate Welfare" is good mentality.

First, I noticed that you completely IGNORE anything about the US Corporations paying their fair share of taxes. Should they pay anything at all? or should the remaining 53% of us who pay taxes pay for their 'tax subsidies"? You don't even address the SUBSIDIES (oh wait, that's right they are not welfare) that those corporations receive, or that they get when they export their jobs to other countries. You must take great pleasure in knowing that your "taxes" are higher every time you put fuel in your automobiles or when an American company lays of thousands of workers and moves their jobs overseas. Maybe if the AMERICAN corporations 'created' more jobs right here in America, Americans COULD contribute more to their taxes.

I am not complaining about jobs, my question is "WHERE ARE THEY". I know very well that corporations are back to their pre-recession levels, but they are NOT creating jobs in the united states. that's what you "conservative republicans (and trust me, you are republican by default), led us to believe. Overburden of regulations? Yeah, go explain that to the stockholders at JP MORGAN. The day congress passed regulation to 'prevent' us from bailing out yet another corporation that made "RISKY" fiscal ventures, hired a LOBBYIST to get "AROUND" it. Yeah, that's over regulation. There are many regulations that are probably not required, but there are quite a few that "MUST" remain in place.

US Corporations "on paper" have the highest tax rate in the United States. Why? Because we all know they WILL find every teeny tiny little GOP/Conservative tax loop hole (and lobby for new ones) so they can AVOID paying their taxes at all. Explain to me why my tax rates are higher than an investor in corporation? I work harder for my income than they do, yet they PAY less taxes.

I do firmly believe that people should pay their fair share of taxes. According to me, and many others in this country who FEEL this way. The rich sit and cry that they are paying more than everyone else, when in reality they are NOT: http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/2012/03/rich_taxes.html

As far as those '47% not paying taxes at all", they need to be "CUT" off from their "Share" of the Social Programs as well. I do not support social programs as a way of life. That was NEVER their intension at all. I believe in trimming the "FAT" out of all programs across this country that are not needed either. Oh wait, that must make me a Liberal right??? Shakes head.. typical righty.

Oh yes, there is nothing mentioned in the US Constitution about paying fair share'. Hmm seems to me the following SUPPORT the US GOVERNMENT having and requiring people to pay their fair share of taxes:

• To borrow money on the credit of the United States;
• To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;
• To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;
• To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;

Oh but, Congress should just eliminate all taxes that are not for the military, roads, post offices, promote the arts, science.. and completely ignore the "We The PEOPLE" foundation of our country. This is 2012, not the Articles of Confederation. If you are so 'against taxation in the federal government" I am sure you can find your own tiny island and pay for all things there. For you can't show me one country on this planet that doesn't LEVY taxes on its people to pay for their governments.

- Signed the "moderate" democrat.

ItsAboutTime:

First, I do not claim to be a top of the line scholar on the US Constitution

Great, that makes at least one point we both agree on.

You think I see the tax code as a way to 'control peoples behavior and their income".

Well, let's find out. Do you support Obamacare? If I don't comply, the government will tax me for not engaging in the approved behavior. Do you support higher taxes on tobacco? If you do, then you support government trying to limit a behavior. Do you support programs like "Cash for Clunkers". If so, then you support government using the tax code to elicit a behavior the government deems acceptable. Do you support programs like first time home buyers tax credit? If so, again, you are supporting using the tax code to manipulate peoples behaviors.

Now, if you don't support any of those, as I most certainly did not, then we can agree on that point as well.

First, I noticed that you completely IGNORE anything about the US Corporations paying their fair share of taxes. Should they pay anything at all?

Just out of curiosity, in pursuit of your education, did you ever take an Econ 101 class? I did. And I would bet that in even the most liberal of schools, it will still be taught that, in reality, you can not tax corporations. The reason why, of course, is because they pass those costs onto the end user. They always do. Those corporate taxes are built in to the cost of every thing you buy. The notion that corporations pay taxes is nothing but a liberal mirage, invented by liberals, to make them feel better. It is an illusion, that liberals insist on perpetuating because it gives them a sense of power that makes them feel as if they have some control.

You don't even address the SUBSIDIES

I am against all subsidies and corporate welfare. But again, tax breaks are not subsidies and can only be considered welfare if you believe that the money a company makes belongs to the government to begin with. It does not. It belongs to the company.

Let's say you take home 1000.00 a week from your job, a tax cut is passed and now you take home 1100.00 a week. Are you now getting a welfare subsidy in the amount of 100 dollars, or are you now getting to keep the additional 100 dollars you already earned to begin with? That 100 dollars didn't belong to the government first, they just weren't allowing you to keep it. It's the same thing with corporations.

Overburden of regulations? Yeah, go explain that to the stockholders at JP MORGAN. The day congress passed regulation to 'prevent' us from bail....

I have no problem with reasonable regulations. You are aware that JP Morgan, like every other business in America, has a right to take risks with its own capital. You do know that don't you? Sometimes those risks pay off, sometimes they don't. JP Morgan risked NONE of the money of it's account holders. NOT ONE DIME.

Contrast that with John Corzine (Former Gov. of New Jersey and a huge Obama supporter). MF Global did use account holder money to cover their losses which was totally illegal.

JP Morgan lost 2 or 3 billion dollars. Yeah, that's painful, but JP Morgan also has a market capitalization in excess of 130 billion dollars. So, yeah, bad trade on JP's part, but they're not going to go out of business and more importantly, they did NOTHING illegal.

Using your logic, a company would never be allowed to make a product that was a failure, because that might cause the price of the stock to go down. Investments are JP's business, this one failed. The investors either take the time to do their homework on the stock, or they don't, but I'll be damned if I want some stupid little government nanny telling me when to blow my nose or wipe my assets. Life has risks. A government that would attempt to eliminate all risk would be oppressive beyond belief.

Companies take risks and have failures all the time, that's just the nature of capitalism. If you don't want to take any risk, then put your money in guaranteed income funds, CD's or treasury bonds. You won't make squat, but you won't have to worry about losing anything either.

But I bet if JP's trade had gone the other way, and they made a few billion, those on your side would be saying "those greedy f-in banksters, they shouldn't be allowed to make that much!! (so we'll tax them to make sure they don't..bwahahahahah!!)"

Because we all know they WILL find every teeny tiny little GOP/Conservative tax loop hole (and lobby for new ones)

Yes, and I'm willing to bet that you also take advantage of using every deduction, credit and loophole you can to reduce your own tax burden don't you? Don't you? In other words, you engage in the VERY SAME BEHAVIOR that you condemn in others. A bit hypocritical to say the least. Not to mention that if you think it's only the GOP that grants tax breaks and goodies, then you've really got your blinders on too tight. Can you say GM, Solyndra, First Solar, and a bunch of others that have gotten tax breaks and goodies from this administration.

Explain to me why my tax rates are higher than an investor in corporation? I work harder for my income than they do, yet they PAY less taxes.

Because an investor in a corporation ALREADY paid taxes on the money when they earned it to begin with. How many times do I have to pay taxes on money that I've already paid taxes on?? You ask where the jobs are, and then you want to further tax the investment money that people use to grow business which creates jobs. (Econ 101 would have taught you that too.)

The fact that you want to introduce a totally subjective notion such as "hard work" into the equation is really a window into your mind set about taxes. It is a totally liberal notion that hard work should somehow play into the tax code.

I do firmly believe that people should pay their fair share of taxes

Hhhmmm, and exactly who gets to decide what a fair share is? How much is rich in your book? Our household income was a bit over 300K last year. We paid 83 grand in taxes over the course of the year, and then had to fork over another 4K on tax day for a total of 87 thousand dollars. Were we paying our "fair share"? And if you say no, then you really are beyond all hope of reason. I can tell you unequivocally that we paid MORE than our fair share. And yet, I'm sure that you think we should be paying even more.

As far as those '47% not paying taxes at all", they need to be "CUT" off from their "Share" of the Social Programs as well. I do not support social programs as a way of life.

At least this is one point we agree on. I have no problem at all helping those who are unable to help themselves. If that means life long care, I'm good with that as long as they are truly incapacitated. But there is a huge difference between those that can't help themselves, and those that won't help themselves. Like you, I grind my teeth over welfare being a multi-generational way of life, and it should be stopped.

Oh but, Congress should just eliminate all taxes that are not for the military, roads, post offices, promote the arts, science.. and completely ignore the "We The PEOPLE" foundation of our country.

You do understand that this country didn't have any income tax until 1913. We survived just fine for that first 137 years before the 16th amendment. There were periods during that time when an income tax was enacted, but it was always repealed because it was usually passed to fund a war effort. It wasn't until 1913 that it became a constitutional amendment.

Of course, the way it was passed was the way that liberals always pass these kinds of things. It was pawned off as only being on the rich, and only for a couple of percent, and gosh, it would never be applied to people of lesser means, and certainly the percentages would never go up. (cough bulls#it they won't)

This is the kind of crap that was given to the people to talk them into voting for it on the state level. It was a complete and total lie, and the people who wanted it passed knew exactly what they were doing. And consequently, it was also the income tax that allowed congress to start bypassing those limits of Article 1, Section 8. "Oh, we don't need to get a constitutional amendment to spend that money, we've already collected it in taxes. It's a really good project, and no one is going to object (and conveniently it will get me re-elected too.)

I am not an anarchist. I understand the need for taxes. I just want those taxes to go to an efficient, Constitutionally accurate government. Not the pile of crap we have today.

There's a difference in the standard of living between Capital Western Europe and Post-Commuinisim Eastern Europe.

Countries such as Germany, Sweeden, France, and The Neatherlands have much larger manufacturing sectors to support their economy. Italy and Spain should be able to rebound if they can adjust.

The Balkans just can't keep up, Capitalism is a new concept.

The same thing would happen to the North American Free trade agreement if Mexico dropped the Paso for the Dollar too pre-maturely. Which in time I hope they do because Wall-Street likes their cheap labor.

nate

spain and italy (have wonderful people and places to visit) however

they have not been productive for 250 years so I doubt even another 50 would help

the balkans with time can improve. see how the northern half of east europe is doing.

farmers and industries like cheap labor, those of us who have worked on wall st would never be considered cheap labor.

Instead of whining about how 50 percent of Americans don't contribute maybe you need to ask yourself why is it that companies pay so little money that half of the population has no tax liability.

Phil, companies don't set tax rates, politicians do.

The US is actually much farther from becoming the 'Next Greece' then you think.

I have family currenlty living in Greece. The tax on items like food is around 20% to 25%. People can go months without receiving their paychecks and after waiting months to get paid for anything what they do get can be less than what they are supposed to receive. Unemployement is very, very high.

I can promise you that people in Greece are much worse off then people in America and Greece got to that point for reasons that the US is no where near.

The problem is that the news doesn't give all the info or all correct info. The info from ground zero is different.

phil johnson

the reason for the 50% not paying federal taxes are for three reasons

1] senior citizens with small or no pensions and social security

2] people with menial jobs, no education and large families

3] those who are educated in fields that either pay low wages because of limited revenue or the country does not need. example in 2010 the colleges graduated 200,000 art history majors. the field turn over less than 2000 jobs a year that means in since the turn of this century we have 20,000 new art history people and 1,980,000 college graduates with high school skills

now I'm sure many have gone on to other fields(i hope)

Yes that and it doesn't matter to the wealthy where the money comes from or who does the work in the world.

Getting collateral for a loan... what a novel idea.

Might actually work, and prevent the lender from suffering a loss.

What an idiot comment with all the trimmings of insane (gold-grabbing)conspiracy theories and old-fashioned name-calling! Marked as 'no value' and inflammatory! You don't seem to get around the 'real world' much?!

Paul Ryan BS. Hilarious. No wonder Paul Ryan will be voted out of office in November. Thank the Gods of Ayn Rand What an Idiot.

It will be interesting to see how this movie ends. Will the Super Monkies win?

You're basing your comments on a movie from "liberal Hollywood"? What is wrong with that picture?

It's laughable if you believe thinking free is actually "free". Everything has consequences, every type of "freedom" costs. Unfortunately, that concept is most likely above your thought process. And to read your comments, you would think Obama "invented" the economy. Again, laughable. Government spending was around long before he became President, long before the oldest citizen was born. Pensions have been around for decades although the private sector has for the most part worked to eliminate them while the public sector has not. I'm sure you're comments are also based on unions and yet less than 10% of the ENTIRE workforce is unionized. And yet its that 10% causing the problems? I would agree they are part of the problem but hardly the main or only cause.

Don, you sound like a sucker for GOP ideology - you buy into the rhetoric without taking the time to understand what you're talking about. You're making all sorts of disjoint points that don't add up.

The fundamental problem with the US, and with Greece, Spain, and Portugal, is that they're economies that consume more than they produce. So their net trade is negative and that results in more payments out that in. The consquence of excess payments out is drain on the wealth of the economy. The goverment addresses this in a few ways - all designed to take on debt to reflate the economy. Yes, it's Keynsian, but it's how it is down. Clinton had a stock market bubble to do it. Bush did it by allowing a housing bubble to form, wasting trillions on two pointless wars, and then givving us collectively $300 billion each year. YThe Bush tax cut was the most blatant Keynsian move ever as it was essentailly money given to us that was not paid for with corresponding spending cuts - it's a pure way to pump debt money into the economy. To create the illusion of prosperity in an economy running more and more in the red, Bush relied on three tricks to hide the problem. That is what got us in trouble - those three tricks were hiding massive underlying failure in our economy - and it all gave way at the end of his presidency. Basically we're stuggling to dig our way out of the massive sinkhole that Bush left in our economy.

So how do we fix this mess? I heven't heard Romney say anything - all he does is criticize. The fix is to restore American manufacturing - it is the only mathematical way to fix the problem. We need to close the trade gap. And only when we start running a trade surplus will the debt in the US start to come down and pull us away from becoming another Greece.

GCV:

The Bush tax cut was the most blatant Keynsian move ever as it was essentailly money given to us...

The money I make does NOT belong to the government first.

It is NOT the role of government to decide how much of what I earn that I should get to keep just because they repeatedly fail to manage their fiscal house.

Finally, the government can't "give" me something that is ALREADY MINE to begin with!! Do you understand that?

The money I make is MINE, not the damn federal government.

I do not exist to serve the federal government. America is NOT the putrid federal government. My life does not revolve around worrying about whether the federal government is taking enough of what one person has earned so they can redistribute the wealth.

GVC: Sorry, I had to step away from the computer and my time ran out before I could finish.

Anyway, I was going to continue by saying that I completely agree with your assessment of Bush and his spending. The problem is that Obama is accelerating that spending even more. You can't dig yourself out of a spending hole by spending even more. You will NEVER reduce the debt as long as you insist on spending more and more.

We're 16 TRILLION in debt. If debt was the answer, then we should all be living in mansions made of gold and driving Bentley's and Ferrari's

My life does not revolve around worrying about whether the federal government is taking enough of what one person has earned so they can redistribute the wealth.

But, you should be concerned about whether the federal government has enough revenue to perform its basic assumptions. People who complain about the size of the federal government rarely have a plan to reduce it.

Yeah they do, it is called total elimination of entire Departments.

Robert: BINGO!!! Because most of them are totally UNCONSTITUTIONAL!!

Barry-NJ: Ahhh, but you see, I do have a plan!! Well, okay okay, I have to admit, it's really not my plan, some guys named Madison, Jefferson, Hancock, Franklin and a few others actually thought of it first.

It can be found in Article 1, Section 8 of the US Constitution. In that section, you will find the 18 enumerated powers of spending to which the Federal Government has constitutional authority.

If you follow that plan, then anything that can not be found in those 18 enumerated powers gets cut. Completely. Period. And it stays cut until such time as we have a 0 balance on our deficit. If the states wish to continue any of those operations on their own, then that's fine, they just have to find a funding mechanism which the voters of that state will approve of.

In the meantime, until the deficit balance reaches zero, the congress can resubmit, through a constitutional convention, those items they feel are absolutely necessary new spending items. If the states agree, then we have just amended the Constitution and those items can now also be included.

You see, this is the way it was originally supposed to work. Those items not listed in the Constitution were never intended to be funded by the federal government. If a state wanted something, then they raised the money to pay for it.

But in 1913, everything went off the rails because the politicians pulled the biggest lie in American history by passing the income tax. You see, the income tax when passed in 1913, was only on "the rich", at it was only a couple of percent. (Insert sarcasm here) I mean really who could object?? And of course, it would never be raised or imposed on people of more modest means. The politicians promised them that. And ya know, there were so many good things that could be done with that money...oh sure, let's go ahead and have measly little 1 or 2 percent tax on those rich people (Sarcasm off) And you see where it has led.

When politicians decided it was much easier just to get with their Democrat or Republican buddy in congress and say "look, if you'll vote for X, I'll vote for Y, and we'll both get re-elected cause were only spending tax money collected off the rich, is where we made our biggest mistake ever.

The income tax is, in effect, what allowed the politicians to circumvent the Constitution because there were too many people who wanted to be re-elected and found an easy way to get it accomplished.

Two centuries ago, a somewhat obscure Scotsman named Tytler made this profound observation: "A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the majority discovers it can vote itself largess out of the public treasury. After that, the majority always votes for the candidate promising the most benefits with the result the democracy collapses because of the loose fiscal policy ensuing, always to be followed by a dictatorship, then a monarchy."

This is exactly where we find ourselves today. God help us.

Read more: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Who_said_A_democracy_will_continue_to_exist_up_until_the_time_that_voters_discover_that_they_can_vote_themselves_generous_gifts_from_the_public_treasury#ixzz1y5SnYX5s

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Robert Bruce70

http://worldnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/06/17/12270842-military-guards-egypt-power-as-islamists-claim-victory

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