David Cameron has accused the Scottish first minister, Alex Salmond, of being reluctant to call a referendum on Scottish independence.
Speaking at prime minister's questions on Wednesday, Cameron said that he passionately believed in the union and that the United Kingdom was stronger together than apart.
He told MPs: "I sometimes think when I listen to [the SNP] that it is not a referendum they want, it's a never-endum … I passionately believe in the future of our United Kingdom. I passionately believe we are stronger together rather than breaking apart."
The prime minister said too many people in the Scottish National party were happy to talk about the process rather than the substance of the issue.
Downing Street confirmed that Cameron would be personally involved in talks about the timing and scope of the referendum in the coming week.
Ed Miliband said pro-union politicians should start focusing on the issues at stake. "We on this side of the House believe the United Kingdom benefits the people of Scotland and the people of the rest of the United Kingdom in equal measure," the Labour leader said. "We are stronger together and weaker apart." Both were responding to Salmond's claim that Cameron's determination to force an early referendum on independence for Scotland would increase support for leaving the United Kingdom.
The SNP leader said the prime minister had no mandate to set the rules for an independence referendum, describing Cameron as "almost Thatcheresque".
He added, however, that a deal on how the poll was conducted could be struck.
Speaking on BBC Radio 4's Today programme on Wednesday, a day after the government in Edinburgh insisted it would organise the referendum in autumn 2014 – 700 years after the battle of Bannockburn – Salmond blamed Cameron for inflaming the growing constitutional crisis by starting to pull strings and set conditions.
"I thought his intervention at the weekend was almost Thatcheresque in its nature – the idea that London knows best and it is operating in our best interests but wanting to set the ground rules for our referendum despite the fact it has got no mandate whatsoever for doing so," he said.
Asked whether his government would put only a yes/no question on the ballot paper, as Cameron wanted, Salmond said the legitimate view of people who wanted greater devolution should not be ruled out at this stage.
The attitude of ministers in London had changed significantly recently, he said, adding: "It was not the language they were using, the language of respect, when the SNP won a huge majority in last year's election."
Salmond insisted he was "always constructive about these things" and indicated that a deal could be struck. He said: "As long as it is recognised that [there is a] mandate of the Scottish parliament to organise and hold a referendum – it must be a referendum built in Scotland and decided by the Scottish people – as long as that is recognised, I'm sure politicians north and south of the border are capable of coming to an agreement some time this year about the ground rules for such a poll, and certainly that will be my attitude."
The former Labour chancellor Alistair Darling, also speaking on the Today programme, said Labour must work with Liberal Democrats and Conservatives if those wanting to save the union with Scotland were to be successful.
"Let's be clear – the only reason we have been put off until 2014 is because Alex Salmond doesn't think he can win just now and he is playing for time," he said.
"What currency we will have? Alex Salmond, after all these years in politics, still can't tell us that. Would we be going into the euro with all the strictures they are now visiting on members, how much debt are we going to have, how do we see Scotland's future? These are the big arguments that we need to engage in, " Darling, the MP for Edinburgh South West, said.
"Get the process sorted out, let us get on to the merits of the argument because the sooner we treat people in Scotland like the grownups we are and we have a proper discussion about that, the better it will be."
And the former Liberal Democrat leader Sir Menzies Campbell told the programme: "Remember this – independence isn't just for Christmas. This is asking people to make a decision to bring to an end 300 years of constitutional arrangements.
"There is an important distinction between a political mandate and lawful authority, legality, and it seems to me that it would be very, very difficult and quite wrong for these constitutional issues to become embroiled in legality as to how we make that decision."
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11 January 2012 4:38PM
Complete BS, Cameron would love it if the unuion seperated...i bet he loves the thought of making his dictatorship official .
11 January 2012 4:38PM
Salmond may well be reluctant to call a pure yes/no vote, as he may well loose it. But Cameron appears to be trying to help him win anyway, by launching a badly planned attempt to wrong-foot the SNP.
11 January 2012 4:48PM
Why on earth are the Labour Party tying themselves to the toxic coalition? Tell the Scottish people that they supported you for years and you'll listen to what they want and then take a campaign forward on that basis. If it's Devo Max, so be it.
11 January 2012 4:52PM
After years of ensuring that the UK did not become a Daily Mail reading, fascist police state by regularly sending over 60 Labour MPs to London, Scotland is now being led to independence by a kilt wearing Tory.
Boom shakalack.
11 January 2012 4:52PM
And two thousand and fourteen years after the birth of Christ...
11 January 2012 4:53PM
I've actually enjoyed this independence debate. The Prime Minister, Mr. David Cameron, has been made to look like a complete noob by Alex Salmond, who has completely bossed him throughout this whole charade.
The highlight of today's PMQ's was when Angus Robertson was the next in line to destroy Cameron with the best quote of the day, "....the Conservative Party has less members of Parliament than there are giant pandas in Edinburgh zoo."
11 January 2012 4:53PM
No they don't. They're going to hold it when they said they would in the lead up to the last election. It's called keeping your promises.
11 January 2012 4:53PM
Salmond looks like the kind of guy who would love to sit in his own little chair at the UN as President of Scotland.
Having asked a few Scottish friends what they think of the whole thing, they don't seem to fully trust Salmond. None of them really know how separation would benefit the average Scot.
Salmond seems intent on separation for separations sake.
The idea of independence means that they would stand on their own two feet, but you can guarantee that they would need propping up from British or European money the next hundred years.
So much like Antonio from The Merchant of Venice, he would spit in our face and then hold out his hand and ask for money.
11 January 2012 4:53PM
The fact that it is AS who is attempting to subvert the constitution and sidestep the law seems to have been missed by most people. The Scotland Act clearly states that constitutional matters are not devolved; therefore he has no power to hold a referendum. The only power rest with the UK rather than the Scottish Government and it is DC who is granting him the power to hold a legally binding referendum. ACs insistence on holding his own rigged pole in 2014 is far more likely to cause a constitutional crisis than anything DC does.
11 January 2012 4:54PM
I thought the same thing after I heard Alastair Darling on the Today show this morning. He basically stated that the rest of the political parties had to show a united front AGAINST the SNP and Scottish independence. Now considering there are local council elections all over Scotland in May, it will be interesting to see how this plays out politically.
I suppose the Labour party as to be pro-Union, but I don't believe politically it well help them at all here in Scotland.
11 January 2012 4:55PM
The only valid referendum is on independence. After all if you are in the union you can hardly have different bodies making their minds up how much union they want.
Indeed given the infantile Holyrood maybe the vote should be direct rule with no devolution or independence. Frankly bodies forming their own rules on devolution is delusional and unworkable and if that is all Holyrood wants then tough they can go alone.
11 January 2012 4:55PM
With just 25% Support that is almost certain.
Not on offer, not going to happen, so give it up.
11 January 2012 4:55PM
Timing is everything.
All the unionist parties were against having the referendum in the first place, now they want to dictate when it should be and the format it should take.
It's Eck's baw....
11 January 2012 4:56PM
The above quote was in reference to Scotland and not to the whole of the UK. I didn't want to give the impression that Scotland has been taken over by 300+ Pandas.
11 January 2012 4:56PM
"He told MPs: "I sometimes think when I listen to [the SNP] that it is not a referendum they want, it's a never-endum …"
Oooooh, he made a funny. That'll show em.
11 January 2012 4:56PM
Ask a single question unambiguously, and the Scottish people can give an unambiguous answer.
I look forward, no end, to dumping this separatism in the bin.
And when it is dumped, kept in the bin.
11 January 2012 4:56PM
On a point of information, dear Guardian, James Meikle and Andrew Sparrow, who is linking the referendum to the battle of Bannockburn?
Is it:
- Alex Salmond and the SNP?
- David Cameron and the Conservatives?
- or someone else? such as yourselves?
11 January 2012 4:57PM
It suits both Cameron and Salmond to have a Catalan-style independent-within-the-UK Scotland with Scottish MPs either absent from Westminster or neutered & Scotland having substantial domestic internal power.
For all the bluster that'll be the end result and thanks to the useful idiots in Labour's rejection of any form of PR that's pretty much a Tory majority guaranteed in England for the foreseeable.
11 January 2012 4:57PM
Anyone got a clue about why Cameron is goading Salmond?
Never-endum is a good line, but it's not true; Salmond is really pushing for separation (in his own time, of course).
11 January 2012 4:58PM
Ahhh, mocking the leader of the largest Scottish party by using mockery and arrogance, that's bound to keep the Union afloat and the Scots in their place...
11 January 2012 4:58PM
As a UK citizen and UK taxpayer living in England, it is probably against my Human Rights to be denied a vote on the break up of the UK.
11 January 2012 4:58PM
Now with every other UK political united against him The Fat fool is heading for total humiliation
11 January 2012 4:58PM
Alex Salmond asked in his characteristic "wry" manner if the Westminster Government thought they knew what was best for the Scottish people. That is a valid question. On the other hand it is quite certain that Alex Salmond knows what is best for Alex Salmond.
He says that it is purely up to the Scottish people to decide about a referendum: Possibly correct if the question is whether to stay in the UK or leave. However if he wants to include any option to stay in the UK but with more autonomy, cherry picking powers and obligations, then that is most certainly something the UK as a Nation has the right to decide on.
11 January 2012 4:59PM
Much as I'm reluctant to agree with Cameron, I can see that at least he has half a point. I don't see that he needs to interfere with the timing, but the question to be asked is a different matter. In their manifesto the SNP talked about "a referendum on independence", so I think that's their mandate, not to ask about something inbetween.
I can see how a member of a club might decide to leave it. On the other hand, "devo max" is about staying in the club but changing the rules. In that case, the other members of the club might legitimately have something to say about it.
11 January 2012 4:59PM
Did I see Angus Robertson storm out before the end of PMQs? His Pandas joke went a bit flat...
11 January 2012 5:00PM
International Law states that self-determination is a universal right. It is not subject to the whim of passing Tories.
11 January 2012 5:00PM
I wouldnt worry, Salmond has zero chance of winning an Independence referendum.
He is probably already trying to find a way to blame the English for his defeat
11 January 2012 5:00PM
Why oh why continue with the Bannockburn reference? The anniversary is the 24th of June 2014, hardly the Autumn. And A Salmond speaking to R4's WATO yesterday made clear this was put about by Michael Forsyth in the first place and had never been sourced to the SNP.
And before it comes up those on the electoral register in Scotland at the time of a referendum will have the right to vote also clearly stated by M Moore on behalf of the coalition yesterday. Of that point there is no doubt.
11 January 2012 5:01PM
Very glad to hear that. Now tell your British politicians to stop opting in and out of Europe as if deciding which pair of socks to wear.
11 January 2012 5:01PM
Eh? I'm no fan of Cameron, but he and Osborne are making Salmond look ridiculous. It's not even a fair fight.
11 January 2012 5:02PM
Neva-endum innit?
11 January 2012 5:02PM
Quite.
I know now that whenever it happens and whatever the question is I'll be voting No, but I have had it with this pish about 700 years from Bannockburn. The idea that the outcome of the referendum might be influenced by such a ridiculous irrelevance is to insult the intelligence of the Scottish people and those politicians in Westminster who suggest that it's part of the SNP's reasoning for wanting a 2014 date need to remember that. It's precisley the kind of patronising drivel that has already driven far too many otherwise sensible Scottish voters into the arms of the SNP.
11 January 2012 5:03PM
I want to see Salmond and Cameron debate on TV together, now that would be good fun. Goodbye England and good luck any caring socialists south of the border feel free to move north of the border where we care for our people, provide free higher education and free prescriptions and want to protect the NHS. Tories want to dismantle the NHS, cut taxes for their friends in the city and make cuts which will affect the poorest in society. Us scots realised the tories were scum in the 80's and there are places you can visit here which still havent recovered from thatchers policies. This is our chance to break away from right wing neo-liberal politics once and for all.
11 January 2012 5:03PM
And go down in history as the PM who oversaw the break up of the Union? I wonder if he now sees saving the union as being part of the Cameron legacy. Having established himself as the undisputed big beast at Westminster - he may think he can take on Salmond.
11 January 2012 5:04PM
"mocking the leader of the largest Scottish party by using mockery".. hilarious
1 Not all scots support the SNP
2 Not everyone who lives in scotland calls themself scottish
3 Less than a quarter of people who live in scotland support full independence.
So stop trying to claim the SNP speaks for Scotland
11 January 2012 5:04PM
Politicians like Alex Salmond love situations like this because it lets them get their faces on TV more more than would normally be the case. So of course he doesn't want this resolved quickly and the spotlight removed permanently.
11 January 2012 5:05PM
Mr salmond said ages ago it would be held in the 2ND part of the SNP leadership of Scotland ,it was Cameron who muddied the waters and it is Cameron who is pushing for something different than what Mr salmond has been saying for ages,i voted SNP last time and even i know what Mr salmond was saying about the referendum,and am very interested in devo max,but for some strange reason politicians from westminster on TV say the Scottish people dont want it on the list..well am Scottish and i would like to see it on the list,i believe the Scottish people have a right to choose ,and that's what Mr salmond wants for the people of Scotland .
yes he wants independence so a yes/no vote is fine for the SNP but Mr salmond says its not what the SNP are wanting its what the people of Scotland wants and devo max must be on the list ,this way it will keep everyone happy,not everyone wants independence but would like to see holy rood getting more powers ,by omitting it on the ballot sheet is with holding a option for the Scottish people and if its going to be a fair legal and honest referendum all options must be open,even mr cameron said it must be fair legal and honest,so why is he trying to pull the strings by denying the people of Scotland all the options.
11 January 2012 5:05PM
Are you being serious? as smug as he is Salmond would wipe the floor with cameron. I want to see it happen on live TV.
11 January 2012 5:05PM
A united front of the 3 Westminster parties against Scottish independence will be required to keep Scotland in the Union.
I don't think I'm alone in not knowing much about the substance of the SNP's plans for an independent Scotland. Their own website is extremely vague on the matter; nothing to explain how an independent Scotland would deliver on promises of greater prosperity.
http://www.snp.org/vision/better-scotland/independence
In this sense, Cameron and Milliband were entirely right to criticise the SNP's approach. A lot of Scots depend on British business and institutions such as the armed forces for jobs, things that would be threatened by independence. Oil is not the answer to everything.
11 January 2012 5:06PM
It is so tiresome, but look at the headline/sub of this piece it's out of step it seems to me.
11 January 2012 5:06PM
What a complete and utter waste of time this is.
There are far more urgent matters that need to be addressed.
With regard to the photograph at the head of this article, a picture is better than a thousand words!
11 January 2012 5:06PM
Keep it up Cameron - the more you interfere and chuck out your heavily scripted and petty wee jibes, the more likely we are to vote for independance.
11 January 2012 5:06PM
I wish someone would take a new poll on support for independence since this debate began this week.
My brother in-law went on line to make donation to the SNP yesterday and he said he couldn't even get on the site (I guess it must have been rather busy then).
11 January 2012 5:06PM
Oh dear. Taking on Salmond seems a pretty futile thing for Cameron to do.
I'm afraid the First Minister will run rings around the Prime Minister. Should be first class entertainment though.
Unless their all in it together, that is.
11 January 2012 5:07PM
Are you joking?
11 January 2012 5:07PM
Why, Salmond is not the political equal of the UK Prime Minister.
The Leader of Birmingham Council does not get to debate with the PM, and he represents more people than Salmond
11 January 2012 5:08PM
....and the photograph at the top of the page is both of them having a laugh at this wit of DCs.
11 January 2012 5:08PM
We should name the pandas george and dave.
11 January 2012 5:08PM
Go for it! The rest of the UK should also have a vote their say on full independence for Scotland and it should be binding with no return possible.
11 January 2012 5:09PM
Are we to believe that the Scots voted the SNP in because they really went with their policies, or was it largely because they were disillusioned with Labour?