Just so long as those involved or supporting the global 'occupy' movement are not sitting there Christmas morning excitedly unwrapping the latest Iphone. Or spoiling the kids rotten - because it's Christmas.

It's a great thing, the Occupy movement, but in the end the people have to make a real impact, and sitting in the cold outside the financial institutions might not be enough.

The real way to prove 'we' want change is to 'hit' Christmas.
That is the ultimate idol of the present system, make no mistake.
Because even if you 'get it' and consider an austere Christmas, based on only feelings of peace, reconciliation, and goodwill, the fear of bah humbug creeps in.
" Well, it's Christmas isn't it "?
This ultimate homage to the consumer driven society is a sacred cow.
When it is sent to slaughter, then we might get somewhere.
This is true.

OCCUPY CHRISTMAS !!!!!!

Style of thing

Not in my name.

I'm not in "the 1%" and they're claiming to spea for me. They're not - not very democratic.

I agree with Imageark it is most important for all of us to vote with our pockets. And that's easy if you can just (?) pay the rent.

Like Gandhi burning his South African second class citizen passport, I suggest that in each city we should start an enormous pile of our consumer goods (iphones, ipads, designer shoes etc....) and not buy any more.

That would scare any capitalist!

Manifestos are all very well but actions speak far louder than words.

It's a good start, it'll be interesting to see where this goes.

(Are @OccupyLondon going to come BTL?)

Certainly in my name.

9 This is what democracy looks like. Come and join us!

No it isn't. Democracy is enacted at the ballot box.

Just so long as they don't disturb the hardworking Traders out in Canary Wharf then the raggle-taggle collection of those annoyed that they were too lazy, stupid or brave to get on in life can have fun in St Pauls for all anybody cares.

There are a few low paid back office staff they can annoy if that makes them happy.

I was going to give them the benefit of the doubt in case they had anything new or useful to say.

Apparently not.

Looks more like the Judian Peoples Front (or is that the people's front of Judea). All we need now is a "What have the capitalists done for us ?" sketch.

Good people, making a good point - though still at the level of "we don't like this" rather than suggesting an alternative (and "tax the rich" is a glib cop-out, because it isn't that simply).

Give it a few weeks and it will be all SWP, but still worth doing in the meantime, I think.

No it isn't. Democracy is enacted at the ballot box.

I'm sorry but that's just lazy. What they are doing is forcing this issue onto the political agenda, which if it has staying power will influence the key topics at the next election.

It's important that people make it clear which issues they consider important, otherwise those issues can legitmately be overlooked when parties are putting their manifestoes together.

This is just as democratic as voting

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9 This is what democracy looks like. Come and join us!

Er no its not. This is "Mob Rule", the dark side of democracy. There is nothing liberal or progressive about these Reactionaries moaning into their iPhones about how terrible the modern world is.

Obviously they have a point about the bail-out etc., but I hope they will realise the disgrace of "renaming" Paternoster Square as Tahrir Square.

It is self-pitying for Occupy London to compare themselves to the Arab Spring. They aren't risking murderous attacks by the security forces. They aren't fighting for freedom and democracy - we have that already in Britain.

When you have an actual plan of action for achieving this, please let us know. FYI, a plan of action looks something like this :

Demand A will cost $X billion which is to be paid by an additional tax of $X billion or a spending cut of $X billion.

Demand B will cost $Y billion which is to be paid by an additional tax of $Y billion or a spending cut of $Y billion.

and so on and so forth.

Then based on this plan of action we wil decide whether to support you or not.

4 We do not accept the cuts as either necessary or inevitable. We demand an end to global tax injustice and our democracy representing corporations instead of the people.

Just shows how deluded these protesters are.

No sane person thinks no cuts are necessary or inevitable. Where there is disagreement is how fast and where things should be cut.

My hat's off to you guys.

Hang in there, and the best of luck.

@perfidy22

9 This is what democracy looks like. Come and join us!

No it isn't. Democracy is enacted at the ballot box.

Can I interest you in a pre-owned car?

whizgiggle

m sorry but that's just lazy. What they are doing is forcing this issue onto the political agenda, which if it has staying power will influence the key topics at the next election.

It's campaigning certainly. But to be Democracy it would have to entail some sort of respect for other people's opinions right or wrong. This is kiddie-camp democracy without the hard work of actually persuading people or listening to them in case they are right and you are wrong.

This is just as democratic as voting

Opinion forming and campaigning is a legitimate and important social function. Not everything is democracy not does everything have to count as democracy to be laudable.

WML
Let's just agree that it is just as much a part of the democratic process as voting and that your responsibilities do not end at the ballot box

We refuse to pay for the banks' crisis.

Now you're talking! So, no more bank bailouts by governments. There could be scope for a free-market / Occupy Whatever rapprochement here.

I also like "We demand an end to global tax injustice". You are right! Taxes are far too high.

The rest, naaah. "We are the 99%" is a bit presumptuous.

Occupy Government?

Good start, OLSE. I support your action, although I can see how difficult it is going to be to achieve your currently stated objectives; with the financial institutions having such global links.

Of course, one of the key consideration for the Occupy Movement, is that of whether targeting the government, as opposed to the Stock Exchanges, is more likely to be effective in realizing the identified changes people want to see, or whether both systems needs to be targeted simultaneously? It could be argued that the Stock Exchanges are being regulated or not being regulated by the elected government, and that, as such, it is the government's responsibility to ensure that they are conducting their business in a manner which is not detrimental to the economic and political wellbeing of the majority of the British people.

As such, while it is clearly important to make the Stock Exchange and the bankers be aware of how dissatisfied many people are about the current unfair economic and financial system, it is difficult to see how making them the sole target, can ever effect change which has to have a high political component?

The government is the political partner of the Stock Exchange, so no significant and enduring change can take place without the government's consent, as it were; not to mention the EU and the G20.

Taku2

They aren't hurting anyone, I don't understand why some people have such a strong reaction to these protests.

7 We want structural change towards authentic global equality. The world's resources must go towards caring for people and the planet, not the military, corporate profits or the rich.

How exactly does one go about this one then?

The Berlin wall was torn down nearly 22 years ago because Communism was shown to be a failure. I fear that we now have a new generation of people advocating a return to that disastrous system.

Without even a scrap of detail about how they would achieve "fairness" or "equality" surely this is worthless. We get it. There's some bad aspects to the current system. But unless you offer another suggestion no one can make an informed opinion.

No it isn't. Democracy is enacted at the ballot box.

I tried that last year when I voted Lib Dem. Didn't really work...

Not in my name.

But in the media's name.

9 This is what democracy looks like. Come and join us!

No thanks.

I don't want global equality, and neither do the majority of Chinese and others.

I want the west to continue to dominate thank you. I want us to be even more successful with even more jobs and more secure futures, even if it means that someone elses standard of living has to be lower, because it's silly to believe that equality on a global scale among 7 billion people can exist. They simply don't have the 18 year old first year at uni mindset. They are hungry for success and want their children to be doctors, not young people who get degrees in the humanities and have no future.

The only people naive enough to think that the vast majority of Chinese, Brazilans and Indians do not want to surpass us are university students, which is why university students are camped out in London.

Let them camp. And yell. and scream.

I'm not buying it.

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Good luck, the bank should be held to account (har har) and not further bailed out to pay sick bonuses. They should be nationalised along with all public transport and the utilities.

UndyingCincinnatus

I tried that last year when I voted Lib Dem. Didn't really work...

So did I and it worked a treat. They're in Government now, haven't you heard?

(1) Wealth tax on richest 10% of the population (20% one off tax to pay off the national debt 2% per year thereafter)
http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2011/09/17/is-a-one-off-wealth-tax-the-answer/

(2) Unlimited liability for i.e. lLoyds name style. For bankers and hedgies?
http://www.voxeu.org/index.php?q=node/4516

(3) Ban on lobbying by the financial industry

(4) Split up retail and investment arms of banks

whizgiggle

Let's just agree that it is just as much a part of the democratic process as voting and that your responsibilities do not end at the ballot box

Yes, but what is disingenuous is these people claiming to speak for the 99%. They don't. They speak for vested interests who make a nice living off the taxpayer money. Now there is nothing wrong with protesting about that, what is wrong is the lack of honesty about who they represent.

Point 1 is the important one. If they want to get anywhere they need to come up with alternatives. Otherwise people will write it off as juvenile posturing.

whizgiggle

They aren't hurting anyone, I don't understand why some people have such a strong reaction to these protests.

What strong reaction? I think we all support their right to spout nonsense and make fools of themselves. We have a right to question their claims don't we? I thought this was a free country.

Viva la revolucion. And you can always pee at MacDonald's for free!

Yes, but what is disingenuous is these people claiming to speak for the 99%. They don't. They speak for vested interests who make a nice living off the taxpayer money. Now there is nothing wrong with protesting about that, what is wrong is the lack of honesty about who they represent.

I thought they were protesting the bank bailouts?

I agree, I'm not really comfortable with the 99% claim either, even though I agree with them

WML

What strong reaction? I think we all support their right to spout nonsense and make fools of themselves. We have a right to question their claims don't we? I thought this was a free country.

I just find it unnecessary to resort to abuse against individuals protesting peacefully. Plenty of people have been doing that over the past few weeks with the Wall St one.

How do they propose to end the oppression caused by 'others' without military action?

This is a plagarisation of something I wrote when I was 14.

Sigh!

Nice idealism. But with no grounding in the real world (or any possible real world).

Without being too cynical, I suggest that we just let them sit there in their tents until they get bored and move onto their next cause.

whizgiggle

WML
Let's just agree that it is just as much a part of the democratic process as voting and that your responsibilities do not end at the ballot box

We are all responsible for the quality of the candidates that stand for election. If you aren't active in a local political party then you are leaving it up to us to choose for you.

The boring drudgery of real politics doesn't attract the lazy or the impatient young. They would far prefer to Tweet their friends or do something dramatic. We all did when we were young and foolish. Then 30 years later we turned into our parents and discovered that they had been right all along.

YOU'RE IN THE WRONG PLACE

If it it stops banks privatising profits and socialising losses then It's an excellent idea.

Oh heck. You know you're in trouble when a cracked article makes more sense. Tragic set of "demands".

http://www.cracked.com/blog/3-types-wall-street-protesters-hurting-their-own-cause/

whizgiggle

I thought they were protesting the bank bailouts?

I agree, I'm not really comfortable with the 99% claim either, even though I agree with them

I didn't see them calling for sale of government ownership in the Banks (which we agree would be the best way to get taxpayer money back).

Most of them seem to want no cuts to public spending, which is their main protest line.

whizgiggle

I just find it unnecessary to resort to abuse against individuals protesting peacefully.

Excellent. And of course you extend the same decency, politeness and generosity of spirit to the thens of thousands toiling away in the financial centre I trust.

Plenty of people have been doing that over the past few weeks with the Wall St one.

If you can name names and quote the exact words then I am sure that 99% of us would join you in condemnation of the abusers. If not then these vague complaints are no better than "Straw Men" arguments.

Freezing rain with gales forecast for London tonight.

Maybe re-designing the world's economy will have to wait until next summer.

perfidy22

9 This is what democracy looks like. Come and join us!

No it isn't. Democracy is enacted at the ballot box.

woollyMindedLiberal

Er no its not. This is "Mob Rule", the dark side of democracy.

Your remarks would have astonished the founders of democracy (def. Rule by the people). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athenian_democracy The system we currently have, so-called Representative Democracy is in fact plutocracy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plutocracy

The various Occupy movements are attempting to kickstart Direct Democracy (the real thing), and about time, too.

I give these people five months before they forget all about money thieves and start calling for the mandatory castration of all vulnerable men on the say so of a female.

whizgiggle

17 October 2011 11:50AM

They aren't hurting anyone, I don't understand why some people have such a strong reaction to these protests.
....................................................................................

Some people want everyone else to feel as miserable, cynical and defeated as they do...........That's not for me.