At least the unions are standing up for their members one last time before the government strips them of all power...

If the public sector can maintain good working and retirement conditions, then maybe, just maybe the private sector could ask for the same or rather, Tories Laws are changed back so that companies can no longer steal them away.

I have lost all faith in unions "negotiation".

they successfully negotiated a better deal for those within ten years of retirement. the result is every other public sector pension scheme member (current and future) gets a worse deal (significantly so ofr the younger members) - bravo to union "negotiation"!

So McCluskey goes it alone on a personal vendetta, whilst the others commendably review the offer and BMA actually bothers to ask what the members think

This is absolutely nothing to do with McCluskey's Union members' interests, it's a selfish personal tantrum. The sooner these old union dinosaurs go the better for all concerned.

All the unions must stand together, the last thing we want is for the government to offer a deal here and there in order to split the united front, the NHS is too important to let this vile coalition a free run to make public sector employees pay for the Bankers fiasco.

We heard that argument about Arthur Scargill, the facts speak for themselves, in case you don't know we don't have ncb pits any longer, same old Tories same old lies.

"The government's attacks on public sector pensions are politically motivated, as part of an overall design to privatise the NHS, cut public services, break-up the national pay agreements, and disrupt legitimate trade union activities and organisation."

That's right - The Tories are hell-bent on introducing
a totally privately provided health care system - as in Germany.
The snags are: a mere 24% going on administration,
massive amounts of inefficiency and no better outcomes than with the NHS for double the cost.
If you can read German - see this.

If the government put as much time and effort into collecting unpaid tax from wealthy
individuals and the obscenely Undemocratic corporations, and put that money into the pension pot.......

Style of thing

The government's attacks on public sector workers are indeed politically motivated and pernicious - Give them an inch and they'll demand a mile. Solidarity is vital.

Lets not be arrogant and naive here, this is our only chance of securing a decent future for us and our children. If we allow these bullies in government to get away with reforming our terms and conditions they will do it again and again.

Unions, for all their negative publicity, are our only defence against unscrupulous employers. They are more democratic than any of those right wing think tanks that write spurious reports about unaffordable pensions. They are also a better defence than the Labour party right now as well - until someone clears the Labour party out of oxbridge educated jobs for the boys culture that permeates their upper echelons there.

Our national debate should be on of civility and working out how to do the best for everyone - I don't want some doddery old nurse trying to lift me anywhere, likewise I don't want a forgetful teacher. I also don't recall any of this in anybody's election promises.

Rant over - the sooner this government ends the better.

It's time we closed the public/private sector divide by closing all existing government pension schemes and replacing them with a National Pension Scheme open to all British citizens on the same terms.

Shame we won't be able to make it as generous as current public sector schemes, but at least it'll be fair.

@BensonBenson

What a silly comment to make. Establish the facts before posting a silly remark on an online discussion forum. You will actually find that the major Teachers Unions (NUT and NASUWT), the PCS and now UNITE have all seen through the neo-liberal smokescreen for what it is.

Well done to Len and Mark Serwotka for admirably standing up for members interests. This is not just about pensions; it's a wider societal issue. What kind of society do we want to live in? I predict that the Doctors and Nurses will soon join the ranks of workers being attacked by this vicious right-wing cabal and their big business/city friends. They have a right to a decent pension after years of service. Our society could never function without these vital workers. The gold-plated myth that is peddled out on a regular basis by liars and apologists for those that actually caused the mess need to be exposed as the divisive/corrosive malignants they really are.

As for private sector workers, I support whole-heartedly their right for a good pension as well as those in the public sector. On that point, I see that SHELL UK has just announced that they are ending their 13Bn final salary pension scheme. Hmmm...Who to blame for that one? The teacher? The dinner lady? Or the fat cat? Difficult one that.

just maybe the private sector could ask for the same or rather, Tories Laws are changed back so that companies can no longer steal them away.

While it would be lovely to see that happen in the private sector, it would force many thousands of companies to go bankrupt since for most companies it is simply unaffordable. The majority of private companies have no fat cats and no obscene profits.

[of course, the private companies could put up their prices so their customers paid for the pension increase but that would massively raise inflation and massively increase our international trade deficit].

Do the proposals not protect lower paid pensions but pull back on those of higher paid workers who will still get pensions that most in the private sector can only dream of? And even then most public sector workers retiring over the next few years won't be affected

Bringing in NHS privatisation seems a little off subject.

The argument that we need to protect high public pensions to set a standard that private pensions can aim for seems a little self serving.

We are all paying for the banking crisis but have you tried buying an annuity and been concerned at what has happened to your pension pot due to low interest rates and lower share prices? Public workers do not have to worry about this and good for them but pulling back on the huge differential which is paid for by all tax payers does seem reasonable.

Or you can dig in your heals and claim that the more highly paid public sector workers deserve their gilt plated pensions - they are worth it - a bit like bankers.

Honestly, good for them.

Even if trimming public spending was needed - which it is if we continue with this wretched system - I don't see why a now publicly owned bank like RBS should be allowed to continue receiving the same privileges it used to receive, but NHS workers shouldn't receive the privileges that they have had in the past.

I'm sorry, but the NHS didn't stuff the system up. It may cost a lot, granted, and there are probably ways we can cut spending on it, but not necessarily by targeting pensions...

And yes, I agree with everyone saying that the pensions are unfair towards most of the private sector, who should also get much much more, something that is probably possible if we stopped paying so much money to already rich richest!

"Unions: the people who brought you the weekend. And capped working hours. And employment rights and protections. And fair wages. And pensions. And ended child labour. What a bunch of greedy bastards."

- Priyamvada Gopal

It's just common sense. They've paid into the scheme for 30 years.

they successfully negotiated a better deal for those within ten years of retirement. the result is every other public sector pension scheme member (current and future) gets a worse deal (significantly so ofr the younger members) - bravo to union "negotiation"!

As Jim Reeves might say: Welcome to My World. Won't you come on in?

You can have a better pension, you just have to persuade the younger workers and new entrants to pay for it.

So I think the negotiations are maybe between the wrong parties. We might even find that the alleged "entitlement culture" of the young is actually more more ingrained in older generation.

The government is only concerned with the total cost of the package. In my experience, that will lead to a deal that penalises younger pension scheme members those yet to join, in favour of those closer to retirement. That is what is happening here because the older you are, the more you understand the value of your pension.

In the long run, terms and conditions for public and private sector workers will come closer together (not in a good way obviously) and union membership will suffer the same decline in the public sector as it has in the private sector, because it delivers so few tangible benefits.

This is incredibly naive.

Companies can't afford these pensions, which is why so many schemes went into massive deficit. Similarly the amounts paid by public sector employees is a mere fraction of the final pension pot - with the rest being met by the taxpayer.

The stupidity of these union leaders is embarrassing to watch - just been watching some guy from Unite spouting complete shit!

Yes and the original proposals fully protected the pension they had accrued and paid for over the last 30 years. It was the next 10 years of pension that would have been slightly less.

Given in the build up phase all other public sector workers pensions will revalue by at least 2% less per annum (i.e. much larger than the difference between CPI and RPI that unions sem to be so concerned about) seems very unfair to me

Here's an insane idea.

If you have a company or government department and you come out with a statement that the company cannot afford pensions, this HAS to apply from the top down. So if you are still on your gold plated index linked RPI rising pension as CEO or board member etc, then all your staff have the same deal.

Otherwise the class division is entrenched.

You are correct Pedent

David Cameron is actually trying to introduce this (as is New Labour) - they have called it the auto-enrollment scheme the government NEST pension fund

But - here's the catch - all the money is going to investment bankers - not the government

And they are foreign investment bankers - 2 American companies and 1 Swiss company

David Cameron's government have given Black Rock (American) the contract to allow them to receive and manage your NEST pension fund

Black Rock then takes your pension fund and guess where they invest it - Pay Day Loan Companies

So they take British people's money - and then lend it to British people at interest rates of over 10,000% - and then how much return does your pension fund get - probably at the very most 5% - (and no doubt Black Rock and the Pay Day Loan company share out the other 9,995% profits between themselves

Now if loan sharks are called scum for charging interest rates at over 1000% - what are Black Rock and their Pay Day Loan Company

Then you have State Street (American) - they are being investigated by numerous law enforcement agencies and the American equivalent of the FSA for allegedly defrauding multiple public sector pension funds across America - they have already had to pay out millions for defrauding American pension funds

Then we have UBS - whom even George Osborne admitted were doing things badly wrong (and they are currently being sued by the American Government for their part in the fall of Fannie May and Freddie Mac

So David Cameron and George Osborne are setting up a national "goverment" pension scheme - and going to auto enrol every British worker without a pension and hand these foreign investment banks 4% of our wages , 3% from our employer and 1% from the government

So Black Rock (pay day loan investor), State Street (being sued for defrauding pension funds) and UBS (George Osborne states publicy up to no good) - are the sort of investment banks that George Osborne, David Cameron and Nick Clegg think are so good they should be handed 8% of our economy under the guise of a "government" pension scheme!

Now if increasing VAT by 2.5% has scuppered the economy - what is taking out a further 8% of the economy and handing it to dodgy investment banks going to do - be the final nail in the coffin I guess

The decision to give these 3 foreign investment banks our pension funds just proves this government should be nowhere near our wages and our pensions

Based on the track record of these banks - this is the final proof these polticians are not there to look after our interests - but the interests of foreign investment banks

(Just so happens high Tory Leone Brittan was the vice-chairman of UBS until Cameron brought him into his coalition government

All Bankers and Tories together

And these changes - well every single private sector worker in Britain will start being autoenrolled to give these dodgy investment banks 4% of their wages starting in October 2012

Contact your MP and complain. I have

They can afford them in countries where the pension plans are invested in infrastructure and other projects that contribute to societal advancement. Whereas in the countries where the funds were gambled on the sotck market......

Of course they are politically motivated...ie...To get us out of the shite the Labour govt has left us in.

If Labour had not cocked it up so badly, their pensions would be nice and safe right now.. Lets not forget that Britain had the best pension schemes (public and private) anywhere until Gordon Brown came along and raided them on his vanity projects.

Why is it that Public Sector workers think they should go unaffected by this mess when those in the private sector have had to make so many sacrifices!!!

@MelKelly

Excellent and insightful post Mel. Thanks

So David Cameron and George Osborne are setting up a national "goverment" pension scheme - and going to auto enrol every British worker without a pension and hand these foreign investment banks 4% of our wages , 3% from our employer and 1% from the government

This was actually started by the Labour Govt and the Tories have continued with it.

Well done to Len and Mark Serwotka for admirably standing up for members interests. This is not just about pensions; it's a wider societal issue. What kind of society do we want to live in? I predict that the Doctors and Nurses .

Doctors? FFS what next: hard done by Spanish Air Traffic Controllers?

Here, have some amoxycillian. Didn't work? It's probably a virus. Kerching!!

There you have the result of 7 years of training.

@Pavis

Unless you are completely thick, the problem was CREATED by the private sector casinos in the City of London, who are still reaping huge profits and bonus pots. Maybe you are not thick. Maybe you work there.

@coolhandluke77

Idiot or comedian? You are certainly not the latter.

I am sorry but you clearly do not understand NEST AE or the reason behind it.

Given the tone of your post I do not think I will be able to say anything to change your mind. However, in case anyone reads your post they should instead (if they are interested) look at:

http://www.nestpensions.org.uk

(gives rationale behind NEST details of charges etc)

Also worth noting that less than 5% of UK employers will participate in NEST in any case (most will use qualifying schemes)

And yes, I agree with everyone saying that the pensions are unfair towards most of the private sector, who should also get much much more, something that is probably possible if we stopped paying so much money to already rich richest!

For a private sector employee to get a pension at the level they would in the public sector, it's estimated that they'd need total contributions (employer and employee) of 38% of gross pay. The vast majority of private sector employees currently don't have pensions that their employers pay into (20 million, compared to the 5 million in pubic sector pension schemes). For them to get parity at the level of current public sector pensions would require a rise in employment costs of approximately 30% of gross pay (the employer contributions) and a fall in take-home pay of approximately 8% (the employee contributions).

Perhaps some employers could make that work, but it would mean higher inflation to cover the costs, job losses where they couldn't be covered, followed by tax rises to pay for the increased unemployment benefits.

A race to the bottom wouldn't be good, but there's no way we can all meet at the top.

"We heard that argument about Arthur Scargill, the facts speak for themselves, in case you don't know we don't have ncb pits any longer..."
Good - Sounds like you are agreeing with me then!

Why is it bad were this to be a political decision?

Different political parties have different views on how to run the country, and make decisions accordingly...

Doctors striking, unions really do stand up for the hard pressed worker dont they??

Suspect the coalition is praying they go on strike. Would love to see the BMA justfiy why the rest of us should subsidise a £50k a year retiring consultant/GPs pension.

These people should thank their lucky stars they have pensions,and jobs,stop whinging and get on with them.Very many others don't enjoy these pensions and conditions,yet are expected to work longer to pay for them through their taxes!

I work in the NHS and its frightening what these "efficiency savings" are doing to our level of care. In our laboratory we now have a 2 week backlog for so called non-urgent cases. People have almost certainly died as a direct result of these cuts and it seems to be getting worse. I don't understand why Andrew Lansley isn't facing criminal prosecution - he has taken large donations from sources such as Care UK and carrying out a scheme which is pushing more and more work into private healthcare companies. He is basically opening up a billion pound industry designed to help the needy to private medical companies and letting them siphon this money off. This looks to me like corruption on a massive scale.

How are the MPs pensions doing?

Do MPs have their own pension scheme? Yes they do - a final salary scheme with a choice of accrual rates. Members can choose to contribute at 1/40th, 1/50th or 1/60th. It is a contributory pension with the contribution rates set at 11.9%, 7.9% and 5.9% respectively.

I'm going to opt out. I don't see the point in contributing £200 per month anymore when I'll be unlikely to see a penny now. Hands up those who think they'll still be able to deal with the public for 7 more years to 67. I reckon I'll be dead before then.

Of course opting out is precisely what the Government want' hence their mis information on this topic..

Gold plated my arse.

You are falling into the government trap of divide and conquer. Instead of whinging about public sector pensions, do something to get your own house in order.

Pension are getting more expensive as people are living longer and interest rates are very low.

What would you suggest was done to put that house in order?

Before accusing me of not reading the article and of being 'silly' maybe you should have read the article too before posting a load of tosh.
From the article: "NASUWT, one of the largest teacher unions, holds its executive on Friday but has already stated that it has not signed up to the framework agreement for education pensions. The National Union of Teachers has also reserved its position. However, the Association of Teachers and Lecturers and the National Association of Head Teachers have signed up to the framework agreements on education pensions."

As far as I was aware, it's still Thursday, so the NASUWT executive has not yet taken place, and the others have signed up.

"Well done to Len and Mark Serwotka for admirably standing up for members interests."
Well done for what? No sign of any progress as far as I can see, except for a few extra quid of inflated salaries into Len and Mark's pockets (paid for by the Union members, whose interests have yet to be improved I'd say).

" They have a right to a decent pension after years of service." - So do private sector workers. Why should public sector workers have improved benefits over private? They are no more valuable in a society - without my private salary taxes they would have no pay - we are all as valuable as each other, so should reap the benefits alike as well.

"Our society could never function without these vital workers." - likewise private sector workers - why single out these Union members? There is just as much dead wood in the public sector as there is in the private, only in the private sector the pruning tends to be harsher. Again - why give improved benefits to all, including those who do not deserve it.

In all - your argument is backwards thinking tosh. Get a grip, move on, improve. And stop spending my money for me.

I would do everything you can to avoid opting out.

By doing so you will be giving up a very valuable benefit. I appreciate not as generous as the current arrangements but still generous. I really hope that at the end of this unions spend time convincing people (like yourself) who are thinking of opting out. Also, you will still be able to draw your pension before age 67, its just the pension you accrue from when the changes are implemented will need to be reduced (but anything you have accrued will be fully protected)

Please dont opt out before you think about it very, very carefully. The pension scheme you will have even after the changes will be better than the vast majority available to any worker in the private sector.

I totally understand

The government has given the contract to manage all nest funds to these 3 foreign private sector investment banks (even before the bill for NEST went through parliament)

http://www.opendemocracy.net/ourkingdom/mel-kelly/trust-us-we%E2%80%99re-bankers-why-we-should-all-fear-for-our-pensions

The Tory Pary's own investment banker advisor on NEST has stated in a report that as employers only need to contribute a maximum of 3% to a NEST pension - then this derisory amount makes it not worth the paper it is written on

Also this same investment banker stated in his report - with such a low 3% employer contribution there is a real risk current schemes (where employer's contribute 7%) will be closed down and the employers transfer their employees to the NEST pension scheme.

This same investment banker who advises the Tory party also stated the acturial projections are that if the 3 Investment banks with the contract will control 50% of all pension funds in Britain - a hell of a lot more than your 5% prediction - can you tell us what you base the 5% figure on

I have researched this very well, i understand it very well. These bankers being continually called to court is fact.

These bankers losing pension funds hundreds of millions of pounds - fact

On top of this - State Street and UBS both have massive exposure to Lehmans - their own accounts state they cannot quantify the loses they have still to incur - again fact

So investment banks with appauling records who are exposed to massive loses for Lehmans (and Madhoff) - with State Street exposed to £100 million in Britain alone - have to get the NEST fund between them.

One think tank even stated last year - NEST is a great way to wean public sector workers off of their final salary pension scheme (so I guess all government pensions will be NEST pensions if the Tories get their way)

And what, please tell me, will taking 8% out of the British economy do?

In the history of union militancy and stupidity, this ranks right up there with the best of them. Is there anybody in the union that can add up? They cannot win that goes without saying because the argument has long since been lost, but you wonder about the quality of the information disseminated to the union members.

The gold-plated myth that is peddled out on a regular basis by liars and apologists for those that actually caused the mess need to be exposed as the divisive/corrosive malignants they really are.
................................................................................................................................................

I think you'll find that it was nick clegg into whose first drips of poison as DPM was casually slipped the term, "gold- plated pensions".

I wonder who wrote that for him? David Laws? ( he who defrauded the tax payer out of thousands over his rent scam?)

Or libdem, danny alexander -who made a £300k profit on flipping his house?

Whoever it was, should be looking closer to home.

After cameron's cock ups at today's meeting with business owners in Maidenhead, the tories are really showing themselves up not only as vindictive but -more seriously for their core supporters- incompetent.

On top of this, once you are enrolled in NEST (you only have 4 weeks to opt out) - if you want to move the funds you cannot

David Cameron is removing the statutory right to move the pension fund for NEST (with current private sector pension funds you have the statutory right to move the fund)

So basically this is just a cash cow for UBS, State Street and Black Rock - roll up roll up David Cameron has decided the British people love and trust foreign investment bankers so much that he has signed the contract to say you will donate 4% of your wages to these poor bankers - and never get the money out when should they start underperforming or acting in ways that might interest law enforcement agencies in Britain - as they have in America

(Oh and British Businessmen - well they have decided your payroll bill will increase by 3% (and again your profits will be slashed to fill the coffers of 2 American investment banks and 1 Swiss one

But don't worry when this puts your company in financial trouble, you can always borrow money from Black Rock's pay day loan company and get charged rates of 10,000% to make up for the money you will be forced to pay these investment bankers under the guise of a government pension scheme