the project has already attracted criticism from some local people who believe it could be seen as racist.

Its pretty bloody clear that it is racist, isn't it? I can see that there may be a case for restrictions on students, but specifically on foreign students? And making them carry cards?

I can't see how this would stand up for one minute to a legal challenge, and am quite frankly astonished at the fact that it has been proposed. A PR disaster which anyone with two brain cells should have been able to foresee.

Oh Lord. This makes me a little ashamed to be a West Country girl.

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Had to check it wasn't April 1st - what are they thinking?????

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Operation Drake?

Let's hope these aren't Spanish students...

It's not the foreign students they wanna keep an eye on, it's Antony Worrall-Thompson.

I'd have felt sorry for foreign students, even before these proposals - Plymouth (how shall I put this?) is a bit of a pit.
So now it improves it's reputation, by becoming a rascist pit.

I'm assuming that by 'foreign' they mean anybody from east of Torquay.

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Its pretty bloody clear that it is racist, isn't it? I can see that there may be a case for restrictions on students,

Why would all students be restricted if not all students are guilty? Do you like to needlessly punish innocent people for the actions of others? That would be a waste of time if they arent causing the problem wouldnt it.

Why not ban all PEOPLE? Afterall, they are all people and people are all the same be they temporarily students or not students or foreign or 'engrish'...

TO avoid the problem, i think it best to shut the shop down, that way you can avoid all descrimination.

If there is CLEAR EVIDENCE of this happening, then good luck to the council - more power to them.

It's not racist to state the truth.

An example of the narrow minded parochialism/racism I encountered daily when I lived in Devon.

Welcome to Plymouth! Pay your course fees, contribute to the local economy when you pay for lodgings and meals etc but don't forget that you have to carry 'special' cards at all times (or what?) and we only want to see two of you at a time!
Plymouth this is a disgrace! Its about time you joined the 21st century.
From and Ex Plymouthian.

To play a bit of devil's advocate, is it still racist if they're all white? Surely that's just plain zenophobia/ic.

Personally I would love a special foreign students rule book to be issued in my seaside town. Rule number 1 being: no more than 3 people can walk abreast on a busy high street.

What! Erm, it sounds rather racist to me.

"And will we be sewing some symbol on to their clothes just so we know who the 'different' people are?"

Exactly. How about you make them sit in their 'own area' of a bus as well?

RocketGoal
9 January 2012 11:50AM
What! Erm, it sounds rather racist to me.

How about... you try owning a shop that is losing £1000's to shoplifters before you go sit on the bus?

1 - Jethro and Roy Chubby Brown are big down here
2 - "casual racisim" is rife. You here lots of "I'm not a racist but....."
3 - How do you term foreign when anyone who is from east of Bristol is considered foreign and anyone west of Plymouth is considered an Alien!

How will they identify 'foreign students'? By skin colour, or by the fact that they do not speak English among themselves?

I'm assuming that by 'foreign' they mean anybody from east of Torquay.

Glad I'm not the only one to have experienced this.

The home-grown students are obviously just better at shoplifting and don't get caught. To imply "only" "foreign" students shoplift is ridiculous. How do Welsh, Scots and Irish stand in this definition?

it's not obvious that discrimination against foreigners can be racist since they are not a race, no matter what some Brits may think. Every nation discriminates against foreigners all the time: e.g. by issuing passports only to nationals, reserving certain security jobs fort them etc. there is no issue there.

I once worked in a 'stately home' where the only way out was through the gift shop (as is often the case). The people running the shop used to dread coach loads of 'mainland european' school children rampaging their way through, I think they even managed to break the turnstile once - it isn't a new problem. I expect the shopkeepers in Dieppe have a horror of school day trips from our green & pleasant land. I see no problem in the idea of trying to restrict them, but it may not be easy. I don't think it is racist at all. The ones we dealt with had teachers in charge (ha ha) these don't. 'Racist' problems are certainly all the rage these days.
There was a hardware shop in Cognac that used to have a notice saying 'English do not touch' We thought it was hilarious.

i did my a levels , foundation and university as a foreign student, leaving about 50 grand in the community, whole towns live off students and the business they bring.

now, reading this i can only think, wow just wow

I used to have to visit Plymouth on a regular basis and though I found it and the people to be generally pleasant, I was considered quite strange and exotic; I only come from Manchester so I don't think one has to go far to be considered foreign down there.

Those pesky Cornish students. They come across the bridge and raid our pound shops!

Absolutely fucking mindblowing.

Operation Drake is being discussed by city councillors on Monday but the project has already attracted criticism from some local people who believe it could be seen as racist.

I imagine it could be seen as racist because it IS racist.

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Although this scheme is bound to grab headlines, I worked at a English as a Foreign Language school for two summers and shoplifting is a big problem. Groups of 20 or so - I won't specify a country they were from as it will just open a can of worms - would go into a shop and try to steal cigarettes and food, then feign innocence due to the language barrier.

I am not saying that 'profiling' is right, but it is unfair on these businesses to just accept the situation as it stands. Better organisation and supervision of the groups would be a better way to go though.

Why would all students be restricted if not all students are guilty? Do you like to needlessly punish innocent people for the actions of others? That would be a waste of time if they arent causing the problem wouldnt it.

Why would all foreign students be restricted if not all foreign students are guilty?
This seems to be the definition of a racist policy, and isn't going to happen.

In a previous job I worked with foreign students and was shamed by the bad treatment they received both on and off campus. Given that their high fees prop up our HE system you'd think they'd get a little bit more of a welcome. Do we really want to live in a country where foreigners are regarded as collectively untrustworthy thieves?

Some advice to put on those 'student cards': Never move to Plymouth.

Sadly, I doubt many of the residents of Plymouth are surprised at this massive PR gaffe - they are probably used to Plymouth Council continuing incompetence by now.

I don't think this article makes it clear whether Operation Drake is suggesting that shops in Plymouth are planning on

a) 'limiting number of students in a shop at one time'

or

b) 'limiting number of foreign students in a shop at one time'

Because as far as I'm aware a) is relatively common and I've often seen notes in small shop windows saying 'only x number of schoolchildren in a shop at one time' (I suppose this could be construed as ageist, but that's a different discussion).

However b) is both xenophobic (not necessarily racist) and presumably completely unenforceable.

And while you're at it, seperate toilets and cafes would go down a storm too I'm sure

And their own "special" area of the the town. Fenced off. With watchtowers......

This scares me so much.
I don't want this country to become racist through and through. If things get any worse I'll probably find a way to leave. I don't think I could bear to watch.

Incredible that shop keepers could even think of a scheme like the one discussed.

The first point is that EU nationals have equal rights in all EU countries.

Imagine asking students from say Yorkshire to conform to special rules. Barmy!

Hmm.

The proposals are not set out in the linked pdf.

Ignoring the contextual fluff, is 'limiting the number of students' racist?

I stole a bar of chocolate from a shop when I was about 11. I am white and I was born in England.

Still, it's much easier to blame foreigners.

Is seeing racism everywhere the new black?

"No more than THREE TV chefs at any one time!"

'Special cards for foreign students to carry with them at all times with useful contact numbers.'

Again this article doesn't make this clear. Do they have to carry them at all times? Like ID cards or something similar? Which sounds bad.

Or are they just cards with useful phone numbers on them? Which I'm pretty sure students get issued with at most universities (I seem to recall everyone being given one back in when I was in uni in 1999 with numbers such as the University Counselling service, Samaritans, local police, taxi companies etc.).

I wish I could say that I'm shocked these attitudes still prevail in this country. But I fear they are actually on the rise.

The hardware store owners in Cognac obviously misunderstood Napoleon's jibe about the English as being a nation of shoplifters instead of shopkeepers.

@KingOfMyCastle

"No more than THREE TV chefs at any one time!"

NOW I know what those big daft hats are for.

I'm laughing, and the reason I am laughing is because here on CiF a few years ago everyone was wringing their hands and whining about how sorry they were that some young British people abroad behaved so badly (throwing up everywhere, peeing in the fountain, etc). The town of Krakow in Poland even banned British stag parties because of the trouble and were applauded for it.

But apparently if us Brits try and exercise the same common sense then we are 'racist' and remember everyone, 'racism' is the crime which beats all crimes (at the moment, until another way is found to criminalise the though processes of the general population, therefore emasculating them and destroying their identity and making them more malleable and easy to rule, which is of course the entire point of the 'ism' industry).

Unlike some of you lot I've actually had experience of this phenomenon as I taught English as a Foreign Language for a couple of summers on the south coast.

We used to do a briefing session for every new course as they arrived which covered various aspects of life, including the law and what would happen if they shoplifted. Every course there would be someone caught at it and they would end up being sent home in disgrace. If the local shopkeepers kept a wary eye open it was only through bitter experience, the same as they do with groups of English school kids during their school terms: and we've all seen signs saying 'no more than x school kids in the shop'.

It's the nature of the thing: groups of kids, and in this case kids away from home and home discipline, who do things they wouldn't otherwise do (as I now see Inmyho has also inferred). Can anyone think of a solution, or would the complainants like to compensate the local shopkeepers, both in the summer and normal term time?

I second that!

I've seen plenty of signs in shops restricting the number of school children entering a shop. Why couldn't they leave it at that given that most language students are school children from other countries? And I'm sure some local school students aren't averse to shoplifting.

And I wish people would stop throwing around the term 'racist' when xenophobic is the more correct definition. After all, the likelihood is that the students in question are the same race as we are given that most language schools teach teenagers from other European countries.

Special cards for foreign students to carry with them at all times with useful contact numbers.

My only concern is that cards aren't visible enough, why not make them wear special armbands instead?

We might also need a special unit to monitor them and ask for papers etc.

Brave new world, people.

How about... you try owning a shop that is losing £1000's to shoplifters before you go sit on the bus?

Well, okay then.

First. I would have to bite the bullet and say that I would limit the numbers of all students in a shop (quite a few do this anyway). Explain why you are doing this. Reasonable people understand. Targeting only foreign students would make me look like a racist shop owner. Which I'm not, but no matter how much you try and package this you will look like a racist shop owner. Also, what ever fiendish plan I put in place this is a problem that doesn't go away, it just changes faces & places.

Second. Agree with the other shopowners around you about how you want to tackle shoplifting. Coordinate your efforts with the police, schools and residence where these students may be staying. Make up signs for your shop explaining the legal steps you will take if a shoplifter is caught. Have these placed in all shops.

Third. Install/improve CCTV. As soon as I've got evidence I could use screen shots of their illegal acts and post them on my shop window. Pass them around the other shopowners. Get some sort of injunction placed on them (fine them as well if possible). Inform their school. Make their life a misery. Be prepared for a backlash of hatred as their circle of fun becaomes smaller and smaller. Install shutters for the evening.

Third. I could begin to relax my student entry policy, and explain the reasons for it.

Fourth. Enjoy the fact that you worked out this problem without being labelled racist. Which you probably aren't, but the unfortunaet circumstances around the problem would ahve made you look as though you are.

I'm now off to sit on the bus. I think?

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I assume that Plymouth City Council have an in-house lawyer?

If so, please could they explain how many Mars Bars would have to be shoplifted to make it worth risking prosecution under the Human Rights Act?