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Not to mention the unofficial profiling that goes on in town centres across the country. I remember living in Croydon a few years back where any venue playing R&B, hip hop, drum & bass or any other music seen as 'ethnic' was targeted by the police until they shut down. When asked about it, the cops were frank about the fact that they weren't talking about places playing 'The Beatles or the Who'.

Of course there'll be a string of comments below attempting to defend the practice but in truth there has always been a degree of violence at gigs centred around any working class youth culture. The punks had it bad too but even they were never as explicitly targeted as MCs are today. Between this kind of thing and the stop-and-search stats, it's becoming increasingly clear that, contrary to general consenus, the racism within the police never really went away over the last thirty years. It's just doled out in more socially acceptable ways.

Is there statistically more evidence of violent crime at musical events where an MC with a recorded backing track performs in contrast to, say, heavy metal gigs? If so, can the public be given access to such statistics?

That's a reasonable enough request. The question is, if the data do indeed show that violent incidents are more likely to occur at or in the immediate vicinity of hip-hop gigs, will you then accept the legitimacy of the 696 form?

I know people who've been involved in organising dance events.

Security is always a problem. And certain dance genres can attract more problems than others. It's not just hip-hop and grime.

If you don't have the security right, it's like putting up a twenty foot high flashing neon on sign, screaming "Come on you nutttaahs"

The black kids who turn up at these events and cause trouble are the nutters.

The white kids who turn up at these events and cause trouble are the nutters.

Everyone else is well behaved and having fun.

A friend who used to organise mini-weekend-rave camping things. She got out of it - as the last time she did it, she thought she had everything perfect. And a bunch of nutter kids got in some how, and they had snooker balls in socks. Which they went around pummelling people with.

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Form 696 doesn't just suck. It doubly sucks. Or rather, one and a half times sucks.

John Wittingdale, chairman of the culture, media and sports committee, characterises this form as "discriminatory and completely unnecessary" because in essence it serves to further criminalise people who already feel marginalised.

And he's absolutely right.

For the benefit of other readers, Form 696 is exclusive to London: no other police force finds any such rigmarole necessary. It is not about "youth" music, but about all live music. It has undoubtedly deterred some venues from putting on some shows, and musicians are the poorer for it, in what is in any event a difficult climate (UK recorded music sales were down 6% in 2011).

Quite seriously: this is equivalent to a village pub requiring police permission to host the local morris dancers and a fiddler.

It is unreasonable, over-engineered, racist and practically totalitarian. It has no place in British life.

woohoo Lowkey's writing for the guardian, love him

You're absolutely right.

I'm sure the statistics show a similar level of violence outside folk clubs and classical music events as outside hip hop and R&B events.

Good for you for raising this.

It especially worries me when I hear reports of performers being searched by police prior to stepping on stage, as was reported this week.

This doesn't surprise me when some very prominent performers of your type of music regularly boast about guns, drugs, domestic violence and their wealth derived from other criminal activities.

If you act upon the assumption that certain demographics are more prone to violent crime at musical events than others, you essentially stigmatise the genres of music you believe them to enjoy – and, of course, deprive the performers themselves of privacy.

Well, this particular fake hip-hop music store opened by the police in north London seemed to have been quite successful in attracting gangsters.

Of course you will next argue that a fake classical music store could have attracted the same bunch of gangsters. Or maybe the police should really start doing body searches in venues like Royal Albert Hall, Royal Festival Hall or Royal Opera House in order to avoid 'stigmatising' particular demographics or genres of music.

Too much testosterone flying around at these events, leads to trouble

Try letting in some women for free.

Grime, hip hop, bassline etc are always mostly full of men, staring at each other all night until trouble occurs.

..........Where is the line to be drawn?
How about when the kids of today have a really great time listening to music then go out on the Town and have a meal and a few drinks without stabbing somebody 'cause they dissed you?

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I think it's terrible that the police discriminate against certain football clubs such as Manchester United, Liverpool, Leeds United, West Ham United, Millwall and Cardiff City just because there is a long history of acts of violence carried about by fans of those clubs and some of them have written books celebrating the crimes of their gangs. I particularly think it's wrong that some football clubs should have to pay more towards the costs of policing at football matches than others.

Oh. I'm sorry. This thread is about whether there is more violence at certain types of music event rather than at football matches involving certain teams and there is no parallel that can be drawn between the two problems.

I like being naive, but it seems the reason for more attention by the police is in this line;

"anytime between the hours of 10pm and 4am,"

Generally speaking, gigs by bands, whether in the pub or at the O2, don't go on past midnight.
I'd also suggest that the number of officers scheduled to be on duty between 4am and 6am (chucking out time) would be significantly lower than between 23:00 and Midnight.
I think one can also say that not many 'gangsta wannabe's' turn up wary of being 'disrespected' at Cliff Richard and SuBo gigs - or I could be wrong - I'd like to be!

Is there statistically more evidence of violent crime at musical events where an MC with a recorded backing track performs in contrast to, say, heavy metal gigs? If so, can the public be given access to such statistics?

Can't really comment much without having access to these stats. I can't discount the possibility of this being the case, while at the same time I am open to the possibility of it not being the case.

I am glad John Wittingdale, chairman of the culture, media and sports committee, characterises this form as "discriminatory and completely unnecessary" because in essence it serves to further criminalise people who already feel marginalised. Has it actually lowered violent crime at musical events or merely served to highlight the different treatment people of certain ethnicity still face at the hands of the Metropolitan police, 14 years after the Macpherson inquiry?

One wonders if the same kind of audience who frequent Hip Hop concerts went to a philharmonic concert, would they get the same treatment?

My gut feeling is that they would because of their obvious rejection of social norms and niceties.

Not because of the type of music that they prefer.

Hey Lowkey, you are quite right to bring up the question of the racial discrimination that may or may not be at work here to a greater or lesser degree, but, on a lighter note, just consider yourself as part of a proud tradition in English popular music. From the 'Who Breaks a Butterfly on a Wheel' episode, to the heavy police influence on early festivals, to the quasi-ban on the Pistols Anarchy Tour, of which only 7 of the 20 dates were allowed to go ahead, this phenomena has always existed in one form or another and I imagine it always will. Whatever, best of luck to you and all the others...

Are you familiar with those gentle seaside picnics the Mods and Rockers had in the 1960s?

I would probably agree with the police. An MC performing at 2am is probably more likely to be in front of an aggressive audience than a musical performer of any genre, MC's included, performing at 9pm. Do many Heavy Metal bands play at such times? The only other people that tend to perform so late are DJs and the rules apparent;y apply to them too. I don't see any racism here.

Are you familiar with those gentle seaside picnics the Mods and Rockers had in the 1960s?

Which were blown out of all proportion by the Press. There are umpteen accounts of mods and rockers being paid by hacks to stage punch-ups.

And eventually the Old Bill turned up suitably tooled up..

Is there statistically more evidence of violent crime at musical events where an MC with a recorded backing track performs in contrast to, say, heavy metal gigs?

I realise that this is mere anecdote, but I've been to plenty of Metal and Rock gigs in my time and I've never seen a fight break out or any other act of violence for that matter, unless of course you count the mosh pit. However when someone slips over in a mosh pit people will go out of their way to help them up. On the whole the atmosphere at most metal gigs is about as friendly as I’ve encountered at any music venue.

I've never seen a coppers patrolling outside of a metal gig in case of trouble either. Presumably because they know there is statistically very little chance of any happening.

That's my point - how is this any different?

I don't really like the idea of the form, although if you are going to have it, you might as well make it useful - which does indeed mean being honest about the fact that some music genres attract certain sub-groups of youth culture, and some of those cultures are more violent, and also those cultures may be composed of a disproportionate number of members of certain ethnic groups. None of which makes anything racist.

However, I'd rather let the venues get on with it, and simply close them down if events get out of hand. In other words, I'd rather the venue manager told Joe Bloggs MC that his music and his crowd were not welcome, than that the Met told the venue that Joe Bloggs's music and crowd were not welcome.

I don't have a problem with venues being held responsible for serious crimes that take place within them, at least to the extent that their license is forfeit.

Does anyone have any links to the anti-knife crime song written and performed by Coldplay, Radiohead, Mumford & Sons, Ed Sheeran and other rock and pop artists? I've tried to find it but for some reason I keep finding anti-knife crime rap songs.

Yes!
True to say every generation has its challenges, but its also true with Mods & Rockers that most of their tiffs were 'organised special events'.
Todays kids can't fight and are reduced to the last common denominator, fear, ignorance and self loathing with disrespect for everyone, I just hated my parents.

Maybe not classical music but it is known that there is a huge spike in antisocial behaviour outside Take That concert due to drunk middle aged women.

Does anyone have any links to the anti-knife crime song written and performed by Coldplay, Radiohead, Mumford & Sons, Ed Sheeran and other rock and pop artists? I've tried to find it but for some reason I keep finding anti-knife crime rap songs.

Sounds like tacit admission of a problem.

It's not about certain demographics being more prone to violence, it is about the provable fact that when certain demographics do kick off, the violence is more likely to be gang related and involve deadly weapons.

The police know which venues the nasty incidents are likely to occur at. They have 2 choices: (a) they can target the venue where the trouble IS going to be or (b) they can be PC like you seem to be implying they should be and treat the hip hop club the same as the 80s retro bar, with equally deployed officers and treatment of licences. The worst cases scenarios are (a) offence and accusations of racism and (b) maimed or dead young people of the demographics you purport to be defending. The coppers are actually there to prevent the patrons being hurt ot killed, believe it or not, rather than to harass them for a laugh. Coppers could think of better ways of spending a Friday night. Come on, what do you seriously think they should do?

Direct your anger at the people who run the venues and organise the events who don't provide nearly adequate secueity rather than those who are forced to do that for them.

Is there statistically more evidence of violent crime at musical events where an MC with a recorded backing track performs in contrast to, say, heavy metal gigs? If so, can the public be given access to such statistics

I would be willing to bet actual real money that if such statistics were collected you would find more violence at the events with an MC (if we're talking Hip-Hop, Grime etc). Metal fans in the UK are a pretty gentle lot generally. Different story in the US. And Sweden, they take it a bit too seriously.

Maybe not classical music but it is known that there is a huge spike in antisocial behaviour outside Take That concert due to drunk middle aged women.

Blimey! How many people did they stab?

I doubt Her Majesty's Press are behind the violence that often plays a part in and around the Grime scene, whether it happens at gigs or not. A lot of the violence in the so-called postcode gang wars has been instigated by Grime tracks on Youtube.

I guess Facts are Sacred only when it suits your political persuasion then?

The 696 risk assessment form seems to rely on the assumption certain demographics and genres are more prone to violence

Yes, concert orchestras regularly erupt with violence. Likewise, Michael Buble's concerts often witness shootings and hard drug use.

You are living in a dream world, I'm afraid.

For sho man! I was at some gig by a bredren called tchaikovskee innit and they had a fuck off cannon, man - I'm not shitting you man!

Have you ever actually listened to Lowkey's music, met any of his fans or familiarised yourself with his 'aesthetic?' Or are you, as his article criticises, allowing your own prejudices to speak before the facts. If you listen to his songs 'Just shine' and 'Wake up' on You Tube, perhaps you will be less offensive in the future.

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If you act upon the assumption that certain demographics are more prone to violent crime at musical events than others, you essentially stigmatise the genres of music you believe them to enjoy

This part of your case was overstated. Appearing to deny that there is any uneveness in the probability of trouble over all demographics and all genres just annoys people as it obviously is not true.

However there is something disquieting about the capricious and unaccountable way that music venues are policed.

The 696 form essentially serves as a means for the Met to place unnecessary demands upon venues and promoters and in some circumstances almost extort them all in the name of ensuring security. There are countless stories of the Met issuing ultimatums on the very day an event is due to take place. Demanding, for instance, that venues and promoters shell out thousands of pounds to cover the costs for extra security and even, in some instances, the presence of armed police. The only other option is that the event does not take place at all.

Although filling out form 696 is said to be voluntary, the possibility of license loss is dangled over venues who do not comply

This is not the rule of law.

The idea of official pre-approval of certain types of music being played is also astonishing, and sinister.

Ah well, time to return to my drum, break open a chilled bottle of vintage Vimto and crank up the radiogram and lay some kick-ass James Last on my homey's from the bowls club - I'd steer clear of the mean streets of Pinner between 8:30 and 9:30 tonight, safe!

All about racial profiling, is it?

So that's why you usually see a cordon of police outside London's Seventh Day Adventist and Gospel chapels of a Sunday morning.

Why does the Guardian always find the most extreme of people to write for CIF? Check Wikipedia.

"The 696 risk assessment form seems to rely on the assumption certain demographics and genres are more prone to violence"

Well they are, aren't they.

Drunken middle-aged women? Why has no-one told me about this before?

What no one is talking about is the underlying sociological reasons for violence, only making assumptions that Hiphop and Grime promote it even though as it has already been sarcastically indicated, there are MC's, such as Miss Dynamite, who go out of their way to promote non- violence and community cohesion.

I like Classical music, some heavy metal and rock, although I find mosh pits very frightening to be in, as a woman AND I also like Hiphop artists like Lowkey and Mos Def, Guru and Akala.

The way some of you are writing is as though, because I like Hiphop I must be illiterate, thuggish, without any social graces when all you have displayed is sarcastic and lazy prejudice fuelled by hatred or ignorance that distracts from the very real issues, about how best to protect and promote peaceful societies, as well as healthy dialogue between citizens and the state, which for the record, I think it is right to scrutinise.

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Howdy folks- just chiming in to point out that Hip Hop crowds and Grime crowds are pretty different from one another by and large, so by lumping them all together a lot of comments on here are betraying a good amount of ignorance on the subject...
Also, while i do agree that some nights attract more undesirables (read "muppets") and that those nights do warrant a police presence, i would argue that there is no particular music which attracts more than any other.For instance, I would generally feel a lot safer at a Rinse night in London than at say... a Trance night in Blackpool or an old school Punk gig in wakefield.... wonder why that is?

Well put!

Lowkey? Is that like being on the down low?