Renea
I've lost count of the times my brother and I have been stopped and searched. We are young black professionals and have never committed a crime in our lives.
By far the worst run-in was when we were recently accused of a mobile phone theft that never happened. A group of undercover cops, who'd been stalking us and a friend, jumped out by our doorstep, in Wood Green, north London. They didn't identify themselves but began to search us – we complied, but things got nasty. An officer grabbed my hand as I reached into my pockets to show that my phone was not stolen, and my brother was pushed to the ground and punched in the face repeatedly. Then the police got out the pepper spray on me as I walked over to try and help. Our mum was watching from the doorstep, screaming that the spray would affect my asthma. They piled on top of me and sprayed me again. I was gasping for breath, my eyes streaming as my brother was handcuffed and put in the van. We were both carted off to the police station, and later convicted for assault on a police officer – a verdict we are appealing against. They never took any action over the phone – we were innocent, so they should have never stopped us in the first place.
We still have no idea why it happened, other than the fact that we're black. Our demands for the home secretary's review are simple: my brother and I would like to be able to walk down the street and not get stopped. We're not a gang, we're brothers.
Tony Schumacher aka Shoey000
I've stood at either end of a stop-and-search pad. I've been the bobby, looking for his "tick" with the sarge, filling in the spaces with a dodgy biro in the rain while the "subject" mumbles his middle name. I know there is much criticism of it and it is a miserable procedure to perform, but occasionally it struck gold. A warrant or a weapon would lead to an arrest and even if it didn't, it would send out a message that I was there, doing my job.
Not long back I was working as a researcher on the Guardian's Reading the Riots project, in Toxteth. I took to walking around Lodge Lane and speaking to young people. One day I was stopped and searched in the area. The officer said they'd stopped me because a shopkeeper had said I looked suspicious, and that he'd seen me talking to gangs of scallys. I told him what I was doing: as I spoke I realised I was going red, not with anger, but embarrassment. Four coppers stood around me, the door of the van was opened and I was asked to "tip my pockets".
Heads turned in passing cars. My mouth was dry as I told them: "I used to be 'Job' mate." He just shrugged a reply and looked at my Dictaphone and then at me. He didn't care.
It struck me as I was driving away that I'd already be forgotten about in that van – once a search was completed and a notebook compiled most subjects were forgotten. But now it was different: I was the subject, and I didn't forget. Even now I'm still angry. I wonder what I'd be like if it happened every day?
Justin Baidoo-Hackman aka JustinBaidoo
From the age of 14 Gus, my younger brother, started to be stopped and searched on a routine basis. He was small and underweight, and didn't cut a particularly intimidating figure. His first experience happened when out with his friends; he found the police abrasive and aggravating. Once he was on a bus and spotted by a familiar member of Wimbledon's finest; the officer stopped the bus, and marched him off to search him in the street.
Non-uniformed police even searched my brother on his way to and from school. Gus was once arrested for causing an "affray", but the charges were thrown out of court when the magistrates saw the evidence amounted to "kids fighting outside the school gates in their uniform". Things came to a head when our house was raided in a search for a police officer's chequebook my brother had allegedly stolen. He became fearful of going out alone, and developed a hatred for police. Our family went from viewing the force as an impartial public service to fight crime, to seeing them as a despotic and vindicative gang of bullies.
According to the Ministry of Justice, in 2010 nine out of 10 stop-and-searches under the Pace Act 1984 did not result in an arrest. Not one of the 100,000 stop-and-searches under the Terrorism Act, used almost exclusively on young Asian and black men, resulted in terror-related arrest. This is legalised harassment and a pernicious power which doesn't act as a deterrent. Theresa May should scrap "sus" laws in all forms.
Peter Todd aka petertodd
In the early 80s my brothers and I were subjected to stops, searches, harassment and aggression on many occasions for no other reason than that we were black. The impact can be destructive on any individual's attitude towards the police.
To single a person out on the basis of skin colour and assume that they must be associated with criminality cuts much deeper than any general stereotype. In all these frightening situations I had little opportunity to explain to any officer that we were just young black British men going about our day to day business, working hard and from solid, caring family homes. In fact I hold a masters, and have run my own professional business for 15 years. My siblings are all well qualified adults.
In the last three to four years my son and nephews have been repeatedly stopped, searched, handcuffed, abused and humiliated at the hands of the police – so no change there. We have complained to the Independent Police Complaints Commission, a long laborious process that almost always culminates in nothing.
Stop-and-search can be an effective tool for crime prevention and detection if used properly. But it has never in my opinion been used effectively: 90% of black people stopped are law-abiding citizens and never charged with any offence. When will we see improvements in this area? Has anyone got the will to drill down into the issues, and reform and really change the culture of the police?
• Comments on this article will be switched on at 9am, Monday 9 January, UK time
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9 January 2012 8:37AM
Of course police should and must be allowed to sop and search ANYONE they have reasonable grounds to,they should certainly not have their hands tied operationally by any ludicrous political correctness,or be forever filling out endless forms for so-called 'ethnic monitoring' if profiling reduces crime and produces results they should use it.
9 January 2012 8:41AM
The thing that really struck me reading these accounts is that there seems more to the policy than merely looking for weapons/ contraband.
This is also borne out by the (very limited, admittedly) experience of 2 of my male friends. They were not only stopped on fairly spurious grounds- young, bit scruffy, but both reported that the police seemed intent in provoking them into aggressive behaviour. - Shouting in their faces, accusing them of being in a gang.
Bullying tactics, basically. Both were convinced ithe real reason for them being stopped was it was a slow crime day & the police wanted to fill a quota of arrests.
Luckily both kept their tempers & didn't rise to bait, but were both left very very angry, humiliated & with an extremely lasting negative opinion of the police.
This was after one experience, imagine how you would feel if it happened regularly.
9 January 2012 8:45AM
The best way to reduce stop and search would be to stop and search all those MPs who clearly committed crimes in their expenses fiddles - theft that far outweighs, for instance, the trivial theft of stuff during the August riots. Or maybe the cops themselves should be stopped and searched - evidence collected to show how they accepted bribes from the News of the World, or to find proof of how their tasering and pepper-spraying is constantly killing people (in August 3 people in just over a week were killed by the cops, and this was after the death of Mark Duggan).
The real problem is that there are plenty of Muddle Class ignoramuses, without a miligram of experience of being at the sharp end of cop harrassment, who say - "well - if it prevents just one crime then stop and search is worthwhile... blah blah blah."
To say ACAB is an insult - to bastards.
9 January 2012 8:48AM
It seems that the Metropolitan police are still institutionally racist. They obviously target black people. This makes resentment. It is a vicious circle. As a white male I have never been targeted by the police in this way - even when I lived in Tottenham. From the situations I have observed the quality of the serving officers seems to have greatly declined over the years. They are there to serve us, not bully us. We pay their wages, we should get more respect. The women police officers seem particularly nasty. The police act like they are above the ordinary citizen. Something needs to change.
9 January 2012 8:50AM
Perhaps all patrols should be followed around by ITV cameras. Those guys behave impeccably...
9 January 2012 8:53AM
Some years back I was arrested at an east London tube station. A sniffer dog had detected a tiny amount of weed I had forgotten was in my bag.
As I was held in a station side room and searched and booked a young black lad was brought in by another copper. He was a little pissed off to say the least, constantly asking the coppers why they had stopped him. The cops treated him really rough, stripping him to his under ware and making sure the door was left open so he could be further humiliated when a train pulled in and all the commuters filed past looking at him.
They searched him and found nothing.
After he was released the Sergeant in charge of the operation came into the room and declared "why is it always them that give us the trouble?" and then "they act like fucking animals"
There is a reason why certain youngsters hate the cops.
9 January 2012 8:58AM
Your post just reminded me of another instance. Group of young men, including my nephew, were looking for taxi after night out in city centre. Police van pulls up & what my nephew described as a " horrible wee nedette" policewoman , very young, got out & started being really rude, challenging, & demanding they " move along or get lifted" - When my nephew pointed out they were in fact, walking towards a taxi rank, she immediately started screaming at him & threatening to arrest him for abusive behaviour.
All the time there was an older male officer sitting smirking in the van. Eventually, male officer called her back as they must have received a call to attend something else. Her parting shot was " count yourself lucky" as she left.
Horrifying to think that we are paying sociopaths a very good wage to do this nonsense. My sister made complaint when she heard of this but of course got nowhere.
9 January 2012 9:04AM
I wonder if SpeedKermit will be along here in a while?
9 January 2012 9:09AM
I have not had a lot of direct interaction with the police. On the one occasion where I did, they exagerrated and lied about the incident to enhance their case.
In every case - not some, not several, but every - where somebody I know has had police evidence stated against them that evidence has been spun and twisted. Renea's story, the first one in the article, where a charge of assaulting a police officer has been brought against somebody who has suffered an assault upon them, is commonplace.
I don't doubt that a police officer's job can be extremely difficult, however the culture of spinning evidence to gain a conviction, together with documented institutional racism, robs the good cops of much of the support they probably deserve.
The people I knew who joined the police force were never the sharpest tools in the box.
9 January 2012 9:10AM
of course we are never going to hear of people complaining they were stopped and searched and found to have illegal weapons/drugs on them.
It is a sorry affair, but then the most extreme examples do not compare to a mugging.
9 January 2012 9:12AM
...but according to the Ministry of Justice, cited above...
...so that settles it then, doesnt it Readingboy? Stop and Search needs to be scrapped for the benefit of everyone, cos it clearly is pissing into the wind.
9 January 2012 9:15AM
* I meant to say racially-profiled stop and search should be scrapped...
9 January 2012 9:18AM
How the traditional view of the British policeman has changed. I remember a constant stereotype of ''your police are wonderful''. Is it the kind of policeman recruited, the population that is policed or is it a new approach where people tell the truth today?
9 January 2012 9:18AM
This happend in Spain but still shows what sometimes the default position of some people in power is that Black means suspected criminal.
I was in a car with a bunch of white friends after playing basketball. The driver had actually been drinking (not drunk though) if I rememberly rightly it was the 90s and in Spain not uncommon. I neither drunk in those days and have never taken drugs. Anyhow, his driving caught the attention of the police. He spoke Spanish as did others in the car and whilst they smoothed it over outside the car. I stepped out of the car and immediatley the whole atmosphere changed. All of the sudden the incident of the car was secondary - I was now the main suspect as a Black man. HIlariously, the bag that I had on me became a dangerous or potential crime item - drugs no doubt. All my fellow Brits noticed the changed and were particulary taken aback and tried to explain I was also British. All they wanted was my passport (did not have it like most Brits we never carried it everywhere) and were looking to arrest me and search my bag which had a basketball in it! Thankfully, the intervention of my mates at the time calmed the police down and they let us go on our merry way.
I have other stories like this, not the UK I might have. But one thing if there are any policemen reading this who have this attitutde. I support stop and search when used in a sensible manner but please try and remember that not "ALL" black men are criminals and it may happen that the black guy driving the nice guy is not a drug dealer. It may be the case he is law abiding, it may be the case that he even supports your efforts to catch criminals so why try and humilate, why try and demean. And if you can not understand sometimes our surly attitude remember it may be the first time you have stopped someone who black but it may be our 2 or 3rd time that month being searched!
9 January 2012 9:19AM
When I was young and white I hung around with four or five mates and wandered the streets in the evenings having what we thought was a bit of fun. Since our idea of fun was basically annoying adults as much as possible we were regularly stopped and had to turn our pockets out. I once had the embarrassment to have to take out the 'My Life in Prison by ex-MP' poster I'd lifted. We took it as a fact of life; As we did the kick up the backside by Bobby Lord if he thought we needed it.
Saying that some off these stories seem a bit over the top but you don't have the police side of it.
9 January 2012 9:19AM
However unpleasant, it is still more pleasant than being stabbed or robbed.
If you cooperate and act politley the police will do the same....simples
9 January 2012 9:23AM
The Metopolitan Police should stop using stop and search immediately as they are on a no win situation by continuing to use it. Let it go and see what happens with subsequent crime trends and stats. After a moratorium we can debate the findings and maybe then Boris or Ken can decide what they want the police to do. Mind you it is possible there could be more deaths and crime on the streets during the moratorium, but at least we could make an informed decision on the outcome. Then again we may find that it was all the fault of the police heavy stop and search tactics.
9 January 2012 9:26AM
Not wishing to be overly contraversial, but does anyone actually have to hand figures showing per capita violent crime, drug activity, theft etc, complied by race for different regions?
I think this information might help frame the discussion?
9 January 2012 9:26AM
But I think you'll find that victims of crime get treated pretty shabbily too. I know my neighbour did when her house was targeted by young thugs who mistakenly thought some enemy lived there. Indifference, a ludicrous insistence that she ( a lady in her fifties) had "done something" to cause this, the implication being that victims of crime are themselves culpable. Despite postive identification of culprits, no arrests, compensation for her having to replace windows, repair damage to car, or indeed anything remotely resembling consequences for the criminals.
In fact it took weeks for police to even deign to visit her, initially claimung they "don't come out for vandalism"
Too busy harassing the wrong people to actually deal with real crimes?
9 January 2012 9:26AM
This is not such a wacky idea.
Technology now exists for police to wear helmet or body cams to record the stop and search procedure.
As a white male I have never been stopped, even as a teen. The world that is described by Renea and others above is not one that I have ever experienced. It is one I thought no longer existed after the 1980 race riots. To be 'fitted up' by the police turns this country into a police state and makes us as bad as places such as Iran and other hell holes.
So what is the answer?
When you hear statistics like 75% of all gun/knife crime in London is committed by black makes against other black males and that there are over 200 violent teen gangs in London you have to ask what do the police do? The black community itself is calling for better policing to end this menace to their community.
9 January 2012 9:27AM
I know there are problems, but I always struggle with the nature of these accounts. Some of the wording. . . .
Why? Someone who grabbed me in the street and didn’t identify as a copper, I wouldn’t be complying. Are you sure they didn’t give you some clue?
OK I have limited recent experience, but I know you don’t put your hands in your pockets when Plod is searching you. They specifically tell you not to do that. They really don’t like that.You could have a weapon or anything.
Did it have a label saying “not stolen.”
Why? In a non-riot situation the police just don't do this unless the person does something. He must have resisted, struggled, shouted, fought or something
People do not get pepper sprayed for “walking over.” Since you were technically in custody at the time, you were not at liberty to choose to “walk over.” Perhaps they were worried about what you might do. Like join in.
So no-one should ever be stopped unless they are definitely guilty.
How would you like the police to know that in advance?
You got stopped because you matched the description of some phone thieves, deal with it. I used to be stopped for less than that. I got stopped a lot.
I kept my hands out of my pockets, I answered their questions politley and I let them search me. I didn’t walk anywhere to help anyone and I never got punched, dropepd to the floor or carted off to the station.
9 January 2012 9:27AM
God do I need an edit function:
This happend in Spain but still shows what sometimes the default position of some people in power is that Black means suspected criminal.
I was in a car with a bunch of white friends after playing basketball. The driver had actually been drinking (not drunk though) if I rememberly rightly it was the 90s and in Spain not uncommon. I neither drunk in those days and have never taken drugs. Anyhow, his driving caught the attention of the police. He spoke Spanish as did others in the car and whilst they smoothed it over outside the car. I stepped out of the car and immediatley the whole atmosphere changed. All of the sudden the incident of the car was secondary - I was now the main suspect as a Black man. HIlariously, the bag that I had on me became a dangerous or potential crime item - drugs no doubt. All my fellow Brits noticed the changed and were particulary taken aback and tried to explain I was also British. All they wanted was my passport (did not have it like most Brits we never carried it everywhere) and were looking to arrest me and search my bag which had a basketball in it! Thankfully, the intervention of my mates at the time calmed the police down and they let us go on our merry way.
I have other stories like this, not the UK I might add. But one thing if there are any policemen reading this who have a "bad" attitutde. I support stop and search when used in a sensible manner but please try and remember that not "ALL" black men are criminals and it may happen that the black guy driving the nice car is not a drug dealer. It may be the case he is law abiding, it may be the case that he even supports your efforts to catch criminals so why try and humilate, why try and demean. And if you can not understand sometimes our surly attitude remember it may be the first time you have stopped someone who black but it may be our 2 or 3rd time that month being searched!
9 January 2012 9:28AM
You are an idiot!!! Well, since reading the book Freakcomomics. If I was a criminal Mastermind, I'll just get white kids to do my bidding knowing they won't get stopped and searched. After all, according to David Starkey the problem with the UK, especially the riots is because white kids are now black. So, there should be a lot of willing white kids wanting to be black to do my bidding.
9 January 2012 9:30AM
I've been lead to believe stop and search has been very effective in deterring young people from carrying knives (by a colleague whom worked previously for the Met as a statistical analyst).
9 January 2012 9:31AM
I sometimes got stoppped and searched as a kid in London. The police never had a specific reason, they must have simply assumed I looked like trouble (do the police think all youth are criminals?), and I was just a skinny white kid!
Life in Britain seems to have become really grim and I'm not keen on returning, ever. Since I moved to Germany I haven't been stopped and searched once. Not in fifteen years. The police here are armed, but I've not seen them resorting to using their guns, or using pepper spray, a taser, or anything else. Why is it that British police are so nasty?
German police tend to patrol in pairs: One male, one female. The combination works well IMO. Maybe the presence of a policewomen helps to keep things calmer?
9 January 2012 9:33AM
To balance things up I must also say that there are some members of the Black community who go to a default aggressive if not non-cooperative manner in any dealing with the police. This may be because of past experiences but non the less fails to give the police in that situation a fair chance to handle them fairly. It does not help the situation - in fact it tends to cause a feedback loop as this attitude gets the polices "backs up against the wall".
One of my brother is super nice, polite and well spoken when dealing with the UK police and as a result he tends to have nothing but nice words to say about them as they are generally polite back.
9 January 2012 9:33AM
"Not one of the 100,000 stop-and-searches under the Terrorism Act, used almost exclusively on young Asian and black men, resulted in terror-related arrest."
but it did result in some arrests for criminal behaviour?
Would you rather your taxes were spent searching little old ladies for rucksack bombs?
If someone can suggest a more efficient way fo combating street crime, other than stopping people on the streets, i would like to hear it.
9 January 2012 9:34AM
I for one care more about our boys that served in Iraq and Afghanistan and gave up their lives for queen and country.
As for the police, I absolutely detest them. It's funny how they want us to sympathise with them or the nature of their jobs blah blah blah. I will not, and can not feel anything for the police but hate. racist army.
9 January 2012 9:36AM
What Black community? There is no such thing. Try getting stopped and searched on a regular basis!!!
9 January 2012 9:39AM
If the black community were more vocal in condemning the kind of behaviour that they are stereotyped with it might help. Whenever a black person runs into trouble there is almost always a deafening silence on that individual's behaviour. However we get more than we need to know on how it is the whole world's fault that that individual was led to indulge in said behaviour. Act like serial victims and people start to dislike you.
And things are definitely not helped by our very own Guardian here, running articles on the incredible contribution to society the likes of Mike Duggan bring and how evil of the police to even try and interfere with him.
9 January 2012 9:39AM
HERE IS A SUGGESTION. STOP WHITE PEOPLE TOO. SO ONLY BLACK AND ASIANS ROAM THE STREETS? WHAT HAPPEN TO ALL THE WHITE BOYS THAT NOW WANT TO BE BLACK ACCORDING TO DAVID STARKEY? AS A BLACK OR ASIAN PERSON, IF YOU WEAR A HOODY YOU'RE A THUG, IF A WHITE BOY WEARS IT HE'S EDGY OR TRENDY. PLEASE....
9 January 2012 9:40AM
Anecdote, anecdote, anecdote.
Come on Guardian - how about some actual Data!
Stop & Search statistics please:
For the last 3 years;
in England & Wales;
by Race;
by Age;
by Gender;
by individual Forces (with comparisons provided to show the vastly different size of London's police force)
by subsequent arrest;
And..... (drum roll please) with statistics against the same metrics for common street crime convictions such as robbery, ABH, GBH, possession of a knife etc. etc.
This way you will be able to inform your readership whether the Police are Stopping & Searching those who are disproportionately or proportionately convicted of such crimes.
After all, my Mother is a 76 year old White lady living in Somerset. She has never been stopped & searched, but perhaps people matching her demographic are due for a thorough examination?
Please Guardian - let us know!
9 January 2012 9:47AM
My younger male cousins live in Tottenham. One of them has just graduated from university and has a professional job. The other is in his final year at university.
Neither of these young men has a criminal record. Neither of these young men is involved in anything untoward. Don't do drugs, etc. One of them is even teetotal. They both detest the Police.
It's one thing to be stopped and searched on the basis of your skin colour because a Policeman thinks he might find something incriminating. It's another to be treated like a criminal while said Policeman is searching you for something that you might not actually have in your possession and that he has no factual reason to believe that you might have in your possession. Policemen are regularly abrasive, aggressive, rude and threatening while dealing with law-abiding citizens.
If Stop and Search is necessary due to a higher rate of knife crime or gun crime amongst black people in London, is it necessary to abandon all professional courtesy and act like mindless thugs with stolen uniforms even in the absence of provocation or threatening behaviour from a suspect?
I'm not surprised to see idiotic comments about how Stop and Search is necessary, which totally ignore the low success rate, the manner in which the searches are carried out and the bad blood growing as a result of being targeted based on skin colour. Some people's brains aren't developed enough to understand that the people the Police are searching belong to the same community that they're supposed to serve and protect. As long as some people see black people as outsiders or interlopers, it'll always be fine for them to end up on the receiving end of sub-standard treatment under the guise of some greater good.
Sad.
9 January 2012 9:48AM
Understand that there is no such thing as the "black" community that there is different cultures and natonalities within the so-called "Back" community. Understand that and then look for other pointers to whether someone is part of a potential gang demeanor, dress etc not just the colour of their skin.
Can you imagine if I tried to tackle crime within Europea under the banner "whites". It would be so lacking in any intelligence that you would laugh at me. We break down investigations into crime into more things than colour of skin: nationality, class, cultural groups, geography. I have no problem admitting that there is a problem with the Carribbean community of gun and knife crime but there are other Black communities in this country - not all black people are of Caribbean descent.
Stop and search is fine if used with intelligence.
Having said that all that my dealings with the police in the UK has been very positive for the most part.
9 January 2012 9:49AM
Time for a video of a young person explaining policing to the police:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EuqeQaEatiI
9 January 2012 9:50AM
"Of course police should and must be allowed to sop and search ANYONE they have reasonable grounds to,they should certainly not have their hands tied operationally by any ludicrous political correctness,or be forever filling out endless forms for so-called 'ethnic monitoring' if profiling reduces crime and produces results they should use it."
Oh have a day off kneejerk knuckledragging trolling reactionaries and read the damn article for just one second or if you can't manage that get someone to do it for you.
One of the writers was punched in the face by a Police Officer. This is a crime. Do you think it's OK for the police to prevent crime by punching people in the face?
If you think for one milisecond that this is somehow some sort of libertarian stance against political correctness gone mad then I suggest that you might have a dysfunctional relationship to violence, and should seek professional help.
9 January 2012 9:51AM
Policing is a frustrating and difficult job. The building up of resentment and anger amongst its membership are understandable. Stop-and-search provides the opportunity to express this in oppressive and abusive ways, against a readily identifiable target. For members of the Police with questionable personal characteristics, social ineptitude and tendency towards violence, stop-and-search provide a wonderful opportunity to express their limited skills.
It is wrong. It should not happen but a power system, such as a police-force, does not concern itself with what is wrong, provided that the system stays in place. This is why, for example, abuse and denial or cover-up, become normal practice.
All this, of course, tends to reduce public cooperation and make the job of the more competent members of the Police more difficult, leading to more frustration.
9 January 2012 9:51AM
The stories related in the article are very similar to those related by French youths - particularly of Maghrebin origin - because stop and search is carried out in more or less the same manner here. I have literally lost count of the number of times I have seen searches over the years, not in poorer immigrant-origin population areas, which is the stereotype, but downtown in the swish shopping streets. I am white and have never been stopped (mind you, I'm also in my 50's) and it is very rare that I have seen white youths stopped either.
Can anyone help me with a question I have please? It is almost impossible to legally take a photo of policemen 'carrying out their duty' here, and that was brought home to me last year, when I photographed a stop and search from what I thought was a safe distance. One of the policemen saw me, came over, and gave me a choice. Either I handed over the camera and let her delete the photos (there were 2 of them) or it was off to the nick for a full ID background check, which,as I know from experience because I'm a foreigner (I'm English) means two hours wait while they check Interpol, French criminal records and god knows what else. Is it legal or not to take pix of stop and search in Britain now, and even if it is do they let people do so without hassling them? Thanks.
9 January 2012 9:52AM
OK, heres a stab at political correctness.
If someone were to say that 15 dreadful idiots recommended your message, would you say this is un PC enough? Is it Clarksonesque enough for you?
You'd probably better not have this deleted, since it is merely a step in the direction of not being politically correct.
9 January 2012 9:54AM
Maybe they would respect the law if it didn't punch them in the face quite so much.
Just saying.
9 January 2012 9:54AM
Go back and read all my posts. I am black and have given some examples to illustrate to CIF how stop and search used with-out intelligence causes resentment and is unproductive.
And by the way, I still by believe there is no one "black" community. There may be general similar experiences but it plays into the us and them to make out black peoples are homogenous and that is the trap and mistake the police fall into.
From know now on I will say Black communities..... I like that one.
I have to get back to work.....laters all...
9 January 2012 9:57AM
And how many people in the street would be tooled up and carrying drugs if there weren't regular random searches.
It's precisely because everyone knows they'll get scanned before they get on an aeroplane that the scans rarely turn up more than an underwired bra or a belt buckle.
If you want your street free of dealers and the posses of tooled-up kids they bring along to protect their stock, you've got to search lots of people regularly. Either the police control your street, or the crims do.
You choose.
9 January 2012 9:58AM
We need better stats.
Does the fact that more black men get stopped and searched mean that is is likely to happen to me?
We almost need a control group of mystery shopper who go about their business in a particular area to understand what element of the stop and search was due solely to being black as opposed to being due to lurking around the station wearing a hoody.
Secondly, what are the stats on multiple stops. The same bloke lurking around the station being stopped 1 hundred times is a different situation from random individuals being stopped for being black. However the statistics do not make this distinction.
9 January 2012 9:58AM
Oh alright then, one of the writers brothers, before some nitpicking right wing troll twerp pulls me up on it.
It's hard enough to get your typing right when angry, but after the first awful post below the line by Readingboy, I'm not angry, I'm fucking furious.
By the way, if we want to keep weapons of death off the streets then perhaps everyone from Reading should be made to retake the driving test. The M4 is not a video game.
9 January 2012 10:06AM
So if the description they are given of a suspect includes skin colour they should make sure that they S&S an equivalent number of people of other skin colours? Next it will be the sex of the suspect and age.
I am not saying that I am in favour of S&S. If the Police are given a description of someone they are looking for they should be able to search for that person without accusations of racial bias.
9 January 2012 10:09AM
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9 January 2012 10:13AM
I wonder if the police resources being applied to Sus Laws might yield better protection for the public if applied to intelligence lead action?
As it is, it seems that Sus may provide a deterrent to weapon carrying on a momentary basis, but fuel anger and resentment leading to occasional outbursts of extreme violence such as the August riots. Swings and roundabouts.
The policy should be reviewed because even if it is not intended as a racist policy, in practice it manifests as so, and probably does little to deter those intent on violence.
Ultimately though, ordinary people are entitled to protection from violent crime.
9 January 2012 10:14AM
Come on now, don't be silly. We all know that actually providing the full information will not happen. I seem to remember a Politician (or was it someone in the Police) a few years ago who did provide some of this information which indicated that certain 'sections' of Society were involved in more crimes than, statistically, others. Immediate cries of 'RACIST'.
Yes, that information would give us a firm basis for discussion. The people chosen in the article, how were they chosen? At random, known to the Guardian (at least one is by his own admission), having the story that goes along with the Guardian's narrative? What?
9 January 2012 10:14AM
Is this really just a simple question of police versus youths from ethnic minorities?
The problem seems to mainly arise in highly urbanised communities where areas of poverty exist in close proximity to ares of excessive wealth. The poorer areas tend to have significant populations of none white origin; the richer areas are whiter.
One of the effects of being poor is that the families who live in such areas have little personal space so younger members of, perhaps larger families, spill out onto the street. One of the benefits of being rich is to be able to provide space in which children can develop both in size of house and in the freedom to go where they will.
In the poorer areas the youngsters anxious to make some space their own, in overpopulated conditions find themselves in violent competition for a very limited mount of space, gangs form, territories become 'owned' and trespass becomes punishable by death - its a short leap from bullying by pushing and hitting to using a lethal weapon with less effort for greater effect, a guns even better you respect it until you get your own.
Meanwhile the rich kids have rooms of their own, guitars and saxes and video cameras. Their friends have room and large gardens. They have second homes in rural areas, or, and even in foreign countries. They have space to expand into, they are not kettled by relative poverty and competition for living room. Their need to expand their horizons is actually over-met, the playing fields of some public school, the gap year, the University perhaps with a scholarship to some prestigious foreign establishment, the internship with a Finnish bank, the network to employment and wealth.
So when the police try and stop the killings, the stabbings and such like who do they have to confront the rich kids or the poor kids, the white kids or the other kids? And kettled in poverty who do the poor kids identify as keeping them there, politicians, vested interests or those bastard coppers.
Another simplistic view perhaps but a change of emphasis!
9 January 2012 10:16AM
I thoroughly agree,
I really dont care much whether the person robbing or assaulting me is black, white, brown or purple.
the police have limited time and resources.
If the per capita incidence of ginger people commiting muggings is twice that of blondes, they should stop twice as many ginger haired people.
In the case of terrorist bombers, 100% have been muslims, and most of those young men....so what can we conclude? Best to spend our resources stopping them.
Crime statistics should be made freely available, and the police should have to explain if on aggregate their searches devaite from this. Obviously demograhpic difference will have to be taken into account, since the number of minorities in the Isle of Skye is somewhat different to those in London.
This seems prefectly fair, and efficient to me, transparent and really not objectionable.