OPINION

Well reasoned. Add in the fact that these "private club" requirements only serve to feed the treasuries of TABC at the expense of bartenders and servers who can be forced to pay thousands of dollars in fines for not making sure that their patrons have a membership card before having a drink.

C'mon Hash...time to sober up. As always, you are the voice of reason. But a bona fide Editorial in favor of beer & wine sales in Oak Cliff would never pass the Ed Board PC test.

Hash:

I have mentioned this to our councilperson for 33 years. The millions of dollars the folks in far North Dallas spend in Richardson, Plano and Addison could probably build three bridges across the Trinity.

Not only that but the buzzed people have to drive five or six miles just to replenish their stock at half time on Sundays and create havoc for the other drivers.

I have voted three for four times to sell spirits in this area and each time it passes the great Baptist blockade finds another reason to forbid anyone from drinking in our part of town.

Fortunately Plano and Richardson recently had the foresight to enter the 21st Century to take advantage of our needy.

Welcome to the 1920's.

1920's and on. In the early 70's, one enterprising bootlegger used to set up shop on Spur 482 just north of the river to cater to the desperate and thirsty.

I have no problem with Dallas being equal with surrounding cities - but I believe *all* alcohol sales should be prohibited. It's a poison and does no good whatsoever for society or for individuals.

I know I'm in the minority, but don't understand why our society actually *promotes* the consumption of such an insidious scourge.

Oh, John. You sound like a relative of mine who thinks that the fact that he condones (or not) something means anything to anybody.

Permitting and promoting are two different things, but like my relative, I'm sure you don't see it that way.

Mike, I too grew up in OC. Legend was that Jefferson Blvd. was quite the place until those whose religion required them to exercise political power managed to eradicate demon rum, and things of that ilk from OC. Since then, we have what we have.

I live in a wet area of N. Dallas, just south of the dryline. A couple of years ago the neighborhood association asked for support to petition our city councilperson to wave his/her magic wand and make us dry. The reasoning had nothing to do with religion, condoning, or not wishing to appear to be promoting. It was that because we were almost on the dry line, a concentration of not at all upscale liquor stores and all what comes with them (e.g., drunk itinerants lurching around the neighborhood during cocktail hours and tossing their brown bags with empty bottles into the streets, yards, etc.) were too close for comfort. The purpose was to divert this blight into someone else's neighborhood.

I, and I suspect others, since we're still wet up here, resisted, thinking that hydrating those dry areas is the remedy for concentrations of drunken blight along the dry lines.

While you're writing that editorial, why don't you throw in something about last call and prohibition against selling beer at Jakes before noon. Kickoff time is noon, so if I haven't stocked up on Saturday; I have to wait for halftime.

Thank you.

Actually, John, we tried that. It was called the Volstead Act. Pick up a history book! It makes interesting reading.

good points Hash. and I can well remember Greenville Avenue just north of Walnut Hill lane where there were liquor stores lined up to sell to the folks headed into 'dry' Richardson and other northern 'burbs. or just look at 114/Northwest Highway as you head out towards DFW, couple of large liquor stores to help the po'folks of Irving slake their thirst.

now the Old Dominion (Virginia) has some screwy laws such as hard likker is sold only in state run stores (pitiful and hopefully they will be privatized soon), but you can buy a beer before noon on Sunday!

@John. all I can say is you need to read a few histories about the 1920s, to realize that we've tried prohibiting the sale of alcohol, but it was not a success. Besides the feds and the states collect a pretty penny on every ounce sold

Guys, obviously I know about Prohibition - duh. I stand by my opinion - we actually promote the use of this poison and romanticize / idealize it, for some reason. If I hear one more person tell me how they "need / deserve a drink" as if it's somehow a *desirable* thing to get blitzed . . . it's just sad.

And if we *don't* make alcohol illegal, then we should legalize all the other drugs - particularly the ones that are safer and less addictive than alcohol, like marijuana, Ecstasy, etc. Let's stop being so hypocritical with this "war on drugs" :/

Peterk,

You have figured out Virginia is a different sort of place than Tx. I think I recall from other posts you live in Richmond.

Lived there from 87-92 before moving to Dallas. The dominant gorcery chain was called Ukrops. They were were they market leader even though they broke all the marketing rules:
1. They were not open on Sundays
2. They were not open 24hrs.
3. They did not sale alcohol of any kind.

They had a very loyal customer base. Folks I knew would buy the beer at Kroger or Food Lion but everything else at Ukrops. Once the Unkrops opened on Brook Rd. I am not sure I ever went into another grocery for more than an item or two.

James and Bobby Ukrop were local heroes. Gave a huge amt to charity. They were committed to Richmond. And Richmond was committed to them.

I still miss the store after almost 18 years in Texas.

By the way Ukrops delivered a high degree of customer service. The bagged your gorceries and took them to tyour car. Most of their employees were older too.

And theri prices were about the same as all their competitors.

Ukrops took care of business so there customers were more than willing to deal with the inconvenience of no alcohol, no late hrs and no Sunday shopping.

When Carrollton was attempting to go wet every Baptist Church in town threatened to post on their bulletin boards the names of members who signed the petition. And there is a church on just about every street corner in Carrollton. Various anti-alcohol groups put out the usual propaganda. DWI accidents were going to go up. Underage drinking was going to explode. Blight would come to Carrollton. Then when it came to a vote it passed with 69% voting for it. And surprise! None of the naysayers predictions came true. Of course that won't stop more of the same BS in this campaign.

Good editorial, Hash. It's past time for this silly policy to go away.

And thanks, John, for reminding us all what it's like to have a few Puritans in our lives.

Thumbs up on the Beer/Wine off-premise analysis. www.tabsontexas.blogspot.com provides more analysis on the alcoholic beverage issues in TX.

This sounds just like the casino problem in the state house.s The do gooders don't want any sin taxes but they refuse to find ways to pay for the necessary things for their citizens.

@I still miss Ukrops. well hate to tell you this but the Ukrops sold the stores to a Belgian company. The couldn't compete against WalMart superstores, Target, Kroger and Whole Foods. Lack of alcohol sales and closing on Sunday was part of the problem. even the Food Lion in my neighborhood was upgraded. interior completely redone, added a 'natural foods' section, better wine and alcohol selection

Reminded me of Randalls in Houston. no alcohol, no sunday openings, and they got bought up.

Ukrops was struggling during the past year and a half. you could see small subtle changes taking place as they tried to retain their customers. more discounts, lots of items on sale..

It gives a sense like someone is about to cought by police and trying to escape

Peterk,

I found that out about Ukrops wehn I went internet exploring after my posts.

So much for my example of how a well run grocery w/o alcohol can dominate in a market where others sell alcohol.

But it may be a good example of how drasticly even the most stable of markets have changed in recent years.

There must have been major cultural shifts in Ricmond since I left in 1992. During the 5 yrs we lived there I really can't recall any one complaining about Ukrops not being open on Sundays or not seeling wine/beer (and I did NOYT hang around with teetoalers). But obviously the folks living in richmond now are demanding it.

I don't know which is harder to get my head around: the idea of Richmonders embracing super walmart or the idea of them embracing something as exotic as Whole Foods.

Next thing you will be telling me that they have changed the spelling of Three Chopt Rd. or that summer vacation for most Richmonders is not a week in Nags Head/Duck in the same house the family has rented since forever.

I will hunch that one change is the hours that the Richmond professional class works. If I recall it was not a town where those folks worked much on nights or weekends. People quit at quiting time. When I moved to Dallas I was surprised by the long hours that folks worked.

By the way are there major conflicts between long time Richmonders and newcomers these days? I gather there are from reading the comments connected to the online articles about the sale of Ukrops. And it looks like old Ricmond is losing.

@John alcohol-consumption is a part of our culture, like it or not. and wine is featured throughout the bible so why is alcohol so objectionable? i can understand smoking as being an "insidious scourge" (terminology which would probably have been used by a turn of the century yellow journalist), but alcohol? and John not everyone who drinks gets "blitzed." my parents had me learn how to be responsible with my liquor starting from the age of 14 (as is completely legal by the laws of the great state of Texas) and i've never gotten "blitzed." and of course you know about Prohibition - duh! You ARE Prohibition!

look at it this way: citizens from your city are going to be driving intoxicated farther than they would be if they drank in (name of your city). this leaves more room for Murphy's Law to demonstrate itself.

@Joe S same goes for desoto except they still haven't gone dry. When i go north and mention desoto they ask "What's that?"

I just moved here from Chicago and this whole wet/dry thing is bizarre. In Liberal Illinois, if a Politician even suggests raising taxes on alchoholic beverages, he does so at his/her political peril. The idea of wet/dry areas in the city, would prompt citizens to lay siege to City Hall with pitchforks and torches.

Just two weeks ago, I had to inconveniently drive one hour round trip, to replenish some items for my home bar. Not only was it annoying to hike to find a store, but I don't know if people realize how outrageous the prices are.

I can get a case of Bud at Binny's in Chicago for $13.99, $12 when on sale. Here that same case is always $18.99 and sometimes it's sold as just an 18 Pack. That's a 30% premium just to drink in this area. Outrageous!

I don't read anywhere where free-standing bars fit into this equation?

Everybody can visualize something positive when thinking of restaurants or grocery stores but what about bars with no food that are all about drinking. It's a little easier to visualize Deep Ellum's problems or Lower Greenville's wars with their residents and bars.

It's been established that if part one passes, grocery stores and convenience stores could sell beer and wine. If part two passes, restaurants could sell liquor by the drink. Since this is all about doing away with wet/dry lines, does this mean bars could then open anywhere they like?