Skip to content
FHWA Safety: First graphic from left courtesy of (http://www.pedbikeimages.org/Dan Burden)
Home > Motorcyclist Advisory Council > MAC Meeting Full Transcript May 9-10, 2007

Motorcyclist Advisory Council (MAC-FHWA)

Motorcycle advisory council meeting

May 9, 2007

Participants [P]

Fran Bents, moderator Ken Kiphart, NASMSA
Carol Tan, FHWA Ed Moreland, AMA
Jeffrey Lindley, FHWA Darrel Killion, ABATE, SD
Michael Halladay, FHWA Steven Zimmer, formerly with ABATE, OH.
Mark Bloschock, TXDOT Gerald Salontai, Kleinfelder, Inc.
Mel Stahl, MSF Robert McClune, Potters Industries
Jeff Hennie, MRF Morris Oliver, FHWA
[P]
STATEMENT(S)
CALL TO ORDER
Ms. Bents Introduction of Mr. Jeffrey Lindley, FHWA

Mr. Lindley

Welcome all and your participation is appreciated.

Last fall's meeting focused on getting together, Congress' charge, organization, etc.

[anecdote]

(Recording begins here.)

We are waiting anxiously to hear about the recommendations that come out of this group, and then what actions will be taken. Having done this before with other groups, there's a usual set of worries with these groups after the first meeting. The first meeting is usually easy to pull together. Everybody is really happy about being selected. They are excited about coming to the first meeting and about sharing their ideas. And a lot of times what happens, with groups like this, is you lose some momentum, and some energy, between the first meeting and the second meeting–and the second meeting and the third meeting. And if you sit where I sit, the way that you see that is you look at the agenda and it doesn't look like there is a lot of substance. You know, there's a lot of talking, but not a lot of substance. You look at the agenda and you go, "Hmmm. Those are all items we put on the agenda, and not items that were put on the agenda." I start hearing that some of the Council members won't be here–because of this or that conflict that came up at the last minute. And we do have at least one person who is not here today, but that did come up, literally, at the last minute. You start getting requests for, "Well, I can't make the meeting. Could I send so-and-so in my place?" And, I'm happy that none of that is happening with this group. I've looked at the agenda. It looks like you have a lot of really good substantiative topics to talk about, so that my concern... Fran can take care of this, but my concern was that you've got so much to talk about, I have no idea how you're going to do it in the time allotted. (To Ms. Bents) But, Fran's going to take care of that... (Ms. Bents, "Thank you.") And so, there's none of that kind of loss of momentum, or loss of energy, that you worry about with groups like this. And that's a credit to all of you.

So, I look forward to hearing about the deliberations over the next couple of days; the results of the meeting. I'm going to stick around for a little while, here, but I do need to get back to the office before lunch. And I just wish you a successful meeting. And, have a little fun as you think about it. So, thanks for letting me come and talk to you. Michael, I think you are next.

Ms. Bents Next, we have Mike Halladay...
Mr. Halladay Any questions for Jeff? I'll put Jeff on the spot, if anybody has anything that they want to ask. Oh, my goodness. There you go. Someone has their hand up.
Mr. McClune Not a question, but a followup to something you said about the gentleman in leathers that asked questions. I'm not really sure how this transpired, but as a result of our last meeting–maybe it was because of a National Register announcement, or whatever but–I don't know if you all were contacted, but I received some interesting emails from around the country (others affirm), and I don't know whether we'll have an opportunity to have that on our agenda so we can discuss some of the comments I received.
Mr. Lindley Feedback on the Council, the transcripts, the issues we went over, for example?
Mr. McClune Yes, right, feedback from our last meeting, and folks coming back saying, "hey, this is great," like Jeffrey, you've suggested and want to give us some concerns and some input. So, it would be good to be able to share those at some point.
Ms. Bents Absolutely. We'll make time for whatever you want to bring to the table. Yes, Gerry?
Mr. Salontai I have a couple of things. First, I saw Mary Peters, week before last, and Mary's interested in this. So, you know, since she is a motorcycle enthusiast, we've got an ally there as the Secretary of Transportation. Second, I actually reached out to a number of individuals in our firm, which is nationwide, and they reached out to others, so I got some additional feedback of ideas. A few things new–not a lot of new things. But, one of the things that came back was that perhaps we ought to have a Website survey, if we really want to glean all the data from everybody who rides motorcycles. And you could do a "zoomarang" type survey, if we think we want more ideas. This is only if we think we need more suggestions for improving safety or to measure the importance of the various issues. How much response we get would help to prioritize which are serious safety issues, versus which are less serious safety issues, versus just one or two isolated ideas. It's really easy to launch electronic surveys these days–and you could notify HOG, for instance; there's probably a gold wing society; there's AMA, the BMW Rider's Society of America. You could notify their national headquarters that this survey is available, and you know you might get ten of thousands of data points that might help steer this Council. So, that's just an idea that one of the people I reached out to had.

Mr. Halladay

Certainly, as we manage the agenda, it's very important we get in to that after a couple of thoughts on my part. And there is certainly room for all those issues. We purposely, based on communication, based on the exchange and the energy of the first time, went to a day and a half here. And have an opportunity tonight to get to know each other a little better. I know a lot of people do know each other well. But, for the whole group the dinner is an opportunity, as is the extra half day. So, we hope that's valuable for folks. And as Jeff said, there are a lot of rich issues on the agenda. We hope we have the right amount of resource folks here. It is your group. It is time for this group to let us know your thoughts. So, we certainly don't seek, in the agenda, to have us talking to you, but to lay issues on the table and have that exchange. What I thought I'd do, just for a few minutes–literally before Fran asks us to - most people do know each other, but - to go around and talk about where we're from and this and that–real briefly, just to re-visit what I did the first time, a little bit about our role here as part of the group.

When the Council was set up, the legislation required a Designated Federal Official (DFO) who kind of acts as a liaison between the findings, the recommendations, the activities, and the rest of the Administration. As DFO, I inform Jeff, my boss, and others within the Federal Highway Administration of Council concerns and accomplishments. And I'm learning. I'm learning both this role, which is new to me, and a lot of the issues in motorcycling. I've had to admit to myself, I'm not a rider; but certainly have been involved in many aspects of the highway community, like sign planning, construction, safety, certainly, and so forth. So, I hope that we can bring an open mind and fulfill our responsibility. So, please call upon us for what ever you need from the Federal Highway Administration. We purposely set up this group without a Chairman. This is not like many one of the entities, organizations, state, associations, and so forth. This is an opportunity to exchange, to come to a common ground, and to pursue what we might do to correct situations, and to do the right thing through the Federal Highway Administration to promote motorcycle safety. We certainly do exchange and work closely with our sister Agencies. We've got a couple of folks joining us today (directing attention to those seated in the rows behind the Council) from NHTSA. And certainly, they have a very active role, as most everybody around the table knows, in aspects beyond infrastructure, design, operation, maintenance, and so forth, and aspects of motorcycle safety. So, that's just a quick run-down in terms of my role. What I'd like to do is highlight a few things that I've been aware of, just to let you know where we are. You mentioned the Secretary's interest, and yes we know that continues. We have contributed to some of the information and invitations the Secretary has received, but I think most of it has come from NHTSA, in terms of her interaction with the motorcycle community. We did have an opportunity, right after our meeting in October, to brief our Administrator about the recommendations, the type of interaction, the issues that have come to fore with this group. So, we had that opportunity and gave a run-down of that to Rick Capka. Rick was also with us when we went to the Secretary after our first meeting in October. We reach out to our Administrator's office and the Secretary's office. And as a matter of fact, Peter Nonis from the Association, AMA, came by and met with our Administrator in late January, and highlighted some of the priority issues. These include, this Council, and the Motorcycle Crash Causation Study, the types of things that the industry, that the Association, the motorcycle safety community were particularly interested in, and very receptive of the conversation with our Administrator, Rick Capka.

We did get our Website for the Motorcycle Advisory Council up and running and we've got full information there, and again I think that your contacts with your Association membership, your community, and so forth are helpful. Hopefully folks are paying attention to that and are aware of the types of issues that are coming to the fore. So, our Website got up and running, I believe by December, or certainly by January. We got some information out in January to the members of the Council on a presentation we pulled together. We got some feedback on that, and information that was presented and talked about at TRB. So again, we're trying to keep up some flow of information. And we're able to do that.

And, the last thing, couple of things, that I wanted to mention, that you may not be aware of, is that we also are taking some initiatives on the exposure side. The Federal Highway Administration is the recipient from state DOTs, state agencies anyway, on travel data, motorcycle registration, and vehicle miles traveled for different types of vehicles. We certainly have been aware of the concern of the overall quality of VMT (Vehicle Miles Traveled) data for motorcycles in general. So, we made a proposal to our Policy office, and they are the policy information office, to issue an initiative to seek, from the states, improved data. We should have some communication out to our field offices, that jointly signed the Memo with NHTSA actually, encouraging efforts to improve motorcycle VMT data, and in fact, to require separate reporting on that topic during the next cycle. So again, we're trying to get out there and get better information in terms of exposure rates and such.

And also, the NTSB chairman testified at the Senate Appropriations Committee, and Motorcycle safety was one topic reviewed there. He referred to the 2-day forum that they did last summer. So again, the issue is staying in front of people; staying in front of Congress; the Administration and so forth. And I think it's been mentioned, May is Motorcycle Safety Month. So we've gotten word out to our field offices and encouraged others to do the same. So it is a good time to come together and carry forward the types of thoughts and recommendations that you've begun. And as I say, very quickly, informally, just a run-down of these things that we've been aware of, since the time of the first meeting, some initiatives. We've got some additional activities that have taken place and that are in the meeting packet, for this meeting today and tomorrow. And, with that I think... Any questions about those factors? Or from Mo or Sue or Diane, anything additional in terms of status or issues that I may have left out that may be appropriate to put on the table now–talk about or mention? (Pause) We'll have plenty of time. (Pause) Let's see who everybody is...

Ms. Bents Let's start by going around the room and introducing ourselves, because we do have a few new faces this time. Bob, can we start with you?
Mr. McClune Sure. Bob McClune, I am the Executive Vice President of Potter Industries, headquartered in Valley Forge, PA. I did attend the last meeting. It was a great meeting. And I have been a motorcyclist for–I hate to say it–more than 40 years. That's pretty much it.
Ms. Bents Gerry.
Mr. Salontai Gerry Salontai with Kleinfelder Engineering Consultant Firm, out of San Diego, CA. I was at the last meeting. And I've been riding motorcycles for 30+ years.
Ms. Bents Steve.
Mr. Zimmer I'm Steve Zimmer. I'm actually no longer with ABATE, OH. I'm somewhat acting independently. But, I've been riding for about 35 years. I was a part of the working group for the National Agenda for Motorcycle Safety. I've been involved in motorcycling 25, 30 years now. So, I'm very glad to be here. I was at the last meeting and I'm honored to be a part of this group.
Mr. Killion I'm Darrel Killion. I'm the state coordinator for ABATE, SD, and I'd guess too I'd have to concur with Bob down here on the length of time that I've sat in the saddles.
Ms. Bents Ed.
Mr. Moreland I'm Ed Moreland. I'm Vice President of Government Relations with the American Motorcyclist Association. We are the world's largest rider membership organization. We're approaching 300k dues paying members. We're also the largest motor-sport sanctioned by the manufacturers. I've been riding since–well, longer than I can remember. I've fallen off more motorcycles as a kid, than I care to share stories about. But, I'm happy to be a part of the group, and please accept my apologies for my inability to make the first meeting due to scheduling conflicts. But, I'm looking forward to playing an active role, now.
Ms. Bents Ken.
Mr. Kiphart I'm Ken Kiphart. I'm with the National Association of State Motorcycle Safety Administrators. We call ourselves SMSA. I'm the chairman. I became a motorcycle instructor in 1980 to pay off a truck, as a part-time job... (Laughter) And it stuck. So, I'm in Nevada, which is a 13 hour plane ride from here, so I'm glad to be here and I'm... (From someone, "Did you get the truck paid off?") (Laughter) Yes, I did. ("Well, that's good!") (Laughter)
Ms. Bents Jeff.
Mr. Hennie My name is Jeff Hennie and I'm Vice President of Government Relations for the Motorcycle Riders Foundation, based here in Washington. I was also at the last meeting. I'm looking forward to working with the group.
Ms. Bents Mel.
Mr. Stahl I'm Mel Stahl. I'm filling in for Kathy Van Kleeck who was unable to be here, and who does intend to try to make it tomorrow–which would be great. I've been associated with the Motorcycle Safety Foundation in one capacity or another since about 1974. I'm happy to be asked to be here.
Ms. Bents Mark.
Mr. Bloschock I'm Mark Bloschock with the TX DOT. I work in the Bridge Division there as a Special Projects Engineer, so I get into a lot of different things. One of the things, Bob noted, that the emails we've been getting, if you know it or not, some of them will get to me. When they do, I've had to advise our Internet police, at work that have a very strict firewall, that there'll be some words that otherwise can't or won't get through, (Laughter) some pictures and such. And I did that via email. Perhaps, everybody in here understood. So now I'm getting all those emails. I tried to explain to them that motorcyclists are passionate about the issues that are involved. So, some of those words will otherwise be filtered down. (Laughter) But anyway, I'm glad to be here. I sat at the first meeting, and we had a good time at the first meeting, and I'm glad to be here at the second.
Ms. Bents Carol.
Ms. Tan I'm Carol Tan, and I'm with FHWA's Office of Safety Research and Development. I'm the Program Manager for the Motorcycle Crash Causation Study, which you've heard talked about many times.
Ms. Bents OK. I'd like to go around the room and meet some our other guests. Umesh.
Mr. Shankar Umesh Shankar with NHTSA. I'm a statistician. I've done a lot of head analysis on motorcycle crashes, among other things.
Ms. Bents Umesh is on our agenda for later this afternoon to present fatality statistics.
Ms. Thompson Hi, I'm Shirley Thompson from the Office of Safety, FWHA.
Ms. Ryan Sue Ryan, Director of Safety for the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration.
Mr. Oliver Morris Oliver, Office of Safety. I'm kind of the behind-the-scenes person, as far as the Motorcyclist Advisory Council is concerned. But, also I'd like to put in a bid for something else that I'm working on. I handle the work zone safety area. So, we're trying to marry the two especially when there are specific issues, like steel plates and various things that happen with construction, that are very relevant to the motorcycle arena, as well. So, any question, any issue on either, I'd be happy to help.
Ms. Bents Be nice to Mo; he's my contract manager, too. (Laughter) He has a hard job. ("Managing you?" someone asks) Yes. (Laughter)
Ms. Wigle Hi, I'm Diane Wigle of the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration; Chief of the Safety Countermeasure Division, which is where the Agency's motorcycle safety program is managed.
Ms. Bents Well, there's one-legged Bill. [Note, he had a cast on one ankle]
Mr. Cosby Thank you. I'm William Cosby, and I work for Diane, and I work with the motorcycle safety programs.
Mr. Holtz I'm Pat Holtz and I work for Calspan, which is a transportation research company in Buffalo, NY. Just recently completed a motorcycle conspicuity study in the summer time. I look forward to working with you.
Mr. Halladay I think we had one person sending their regrets (Ms. Bents, "Don Vaughn"), as I mentioned earlier, Don was not able to make it. As she mentioned, he is with the Alabama DOT, but he had some communication input and...
Ms. Bents He did, and he's going to be appearing through the voice of Mark Bloschock, a little bit later today. He did have some comments and some recommendations for the Council. He was very sorry he had to cancel at the last minute, but it was something that was very important to the state.

Ms. Bents

OK, I'd like to spend just a minute reviewing what is in your folder. First and foremost, we have a draft Brochure that is being developed by the Federal Highway Administration in response to your suggestions on improving awareness of motorcycle safety. We'll be talking about this brochure tomorrow morning. So you'll have a chance, maybe later this evening, to take a look at it. And if you have any suggestions or comments, we'll be glad to entertain those tomorrow. On the left side, of course we have the Agenda. We have a very full agenda today, as you can see. But that is not to say that we're not interested in any of your comments or new ideas. We'll make time for all of those. Even if it means skipping breaks and meals... just joking. We'll get it all in. But, this is your Council and we're here to review and discuss your concerns. So, you make sure that you raise them, and I'll make sure that we have time to give you your due. Here is the latest–but, I understand now out of date... Steve (Laughter)–listing so that you can contact one another, outside of the meeting. We have a copy of the presentation that will be made later today, by Umesh from NHTSA, on the safety statistics. And I did email to all of you the Monash Report on Intelligent Transportation Systems. Monash University is in Australia; I understand some people had a problem opening that file. So, we have a hard copy here, just in case you weren't able to open it when we sent it to you.

OK. Let me go over a few of our basics; there are some housekeeping items. For restrooms, go out the door and to the left. As you'll note on your agenda, we will have some brief breaks, and we will be breaking for lunch, of course. And unfortunately as you've noticed, we can't offer refreshments here, but many of you have found the Starbucks downstairs. There's the Bistro and you can get what you need there. And we will also have a dinner gathering there. I've reserved a table for all of you who are interested in attending tonight, at six o'clock. It is in my name, Fran Bents, and I've been told it's pasta night at the Eads Bistro. So, I hope you enjoy. Please set your cell phones on vibrate. The meeting is being recorded, as you can tell, and we will be producing a transcript that will be placed on the Website. I also do have a microphone, as you can see, and I ask that you let me hand you the microphone when you're speaking. That's so a) we can hear each other, because I think they're testing tanks in the room above us, and b) that we're able to pick up what you'll have to say on the recorders here. And we also have someone from our staff, who is not doing a verbatim transcription, but capturing highlights, and that will be available a day or so after the meeting.

Shelley Boyd is here assisting, and Shelley will be recording recommendations, things like that, and if you have any special needs, please let her know. For the benefit of Ed and Mel, who weren't here last time, let me tell you what my job is–to keep you all productive and going in the right direction. So, although each of you represents different organizations and agencies, we're here because of common interest in, and commitment to, transportation safety. It's my job to help you to each have a voice in developing approaches to improving motorcycle safety. I'm going to do my best to make sure that each of your voices is heard, and my goal is to assist the Council in making decisions and recommendations that reflect the views of the majority of the members. So, the decisions that are reached may not always be unanimous, but they will certainly reflect the consensus of the group.

Ground Rules: I'm going to cover all of the agenda topics, today, and draw the meeting to a close by 4:30. I may allow you to digress, slightly, from the topic at hand to better explain your positions. I will try to again focus on the topic that we're discussing at that time, so that we can achieve our common goals. Reminder, I'll be using the microphone, so please don't speak until I get to you. I may sometimes ask you for additional information, because I will be preparing a summary report and I want to make sure that I fully understand what you are saying. And, I will periodically reflect on where we are, and what we have achieved. At lunch time, we'll probably review whatever big recommendations or Action Items you have created. I'll probably do so again at the end of the day, and again at the end of the meeting, to make sure that I'm capturing the essence of what the Council is achieving. So, I hope you will please let me know how I can help you to have a more productive day. Any questions? All right!

Well, with that, let's get started on our report on Action Items. And I understand that Bob, you have a video on painted road markings...

Mr. McClune

I do. That's it. If I can have a minute to intro it, it would be probably be helpful for everyone. At our last meeting, we talked about lots of different things and we listed some of the opportunities we might have to improve highway safety. And one of the topics that we discussed, I think quite thoroughly, was the topic of pavement markings. A little background on myself, I said earlier, I'm with Potters Industries. I've been in the highway safety business for over 20 years. My focus has been on signage and pavement markings. I've been a very active member of TRB and ATSSA, so I'm very familiar with the work zone safety initiatives that we're all involved with. And, pavement markings are very near and dear to my heart and, for those of you who are not that familiar with them, in my opinion, they are probably the most taken-for-granted safety device on our roadways. And, they're critical and extremely important for positive guidance, both day and night.

I think that several years ago, the Urban Institute here in Washington, DC, did a study–it was a benefit/cost ratio study of pavement markings and as I remember–they determined that pavement markings, the benefit/cost ratio, was 60/1. Which, for all practical purposes, means for every dollar we spend on pavement markings, the societal return is $60. There are very few other on-the-road traffic safety devices that have a benefit/cost ratio equal to or exceeding that number. And, they're very low-cost; they're very efficient traffic safety devices. But yet, they don't necessarily get as much attention as I think they should. So in our meeting last time, we talked for, as far as motorcycle safety, it would be good safety measure to have wider and brighter pavement markers for, again, positive delineation and guidance both day and night. There is not a lot of work done on this. Again, I cite ATSSA. Industry and ATSSA have worked together to promote brighter and wider pavement markings. As a matter of fact, wider pavement markings were a part of the past SAFETEA-LU legislation. ATSSA and several members of industry put together this informative CD, which started–Mark, you will be familiar with this, it started–with a study by the Texas Transportation Institute. This is the study that provided the background added to everything you'll see on this CD. This study is available to any of you that are interested in having a copy this, leave me your business card and I'll be glad to get it to you. But, it started with a really good background study by one of the better research highway organizations in our industry today and through ATSSA we generated this CD. So if you go ahead and hit the Play, we will... (From someone, "the study itself, was that recently done?") It was actually completed in March 2002 (Someone asks, "So, is this going out through ATSSA–available through ATSSA?") It's available through ATSSA, yes. And if you look at the left border, in addition to the video portion, there also is a hardcopy of the study.

Mr. Halladay Fran I was just thinking, where on the agenda do you think we might have an opportunity? Bob mentioned, and others, have feedback from the first meeting, and so forth, coming up. Have you thought about where on the agenda that might be appropriate?
Ms. Bents Good point. I will.
Presentation: Road Markings and Signage
Mr. McClune That's it. Obviously as with most studies, this was targeted towards the automobile. But, the carry-over is certainly the same for motorcycles. You know when we started, I said that pavement markings are really taken for granted. And if you would just stop for a minute and try to visualize driving home at night, where there are no pavement markings on the road at all. It's just something that's there. We expect it to be there and I think we have the right to expect that they perform. The question that I ask quite often, just to get some indication of our understanding of pavement markings is–I mean, but this is sort of a select group, but–how many people in the room know why there's a yellow line on the road? (short discussion on same) One? I mean, we've all been driving for a lot of years. (Laughter) (Someone asks, "What, you mean what's yellow versus white?") What does yellow mean? (A response, "White, you can cross and yellow, you can't; or something like that") Yellow means that there's–for all practical purposes, there's–oncoming traffic on the other side of direction. So, if any of you have driven up a one-way street, you would–and you were looking for a yellow line–you wouldn't see one. So, my point is that pavement markings are important. They're important for automobiles and motorcycles, alike. And the brighter and the wider they are, I think, the greater safety benefits they'll provide.
Mr. Halladay Those statistics or a part of that, were those taken from the TTI report? I mean the Montana study, in terms of crash experience of older drivers and overall numbers? Or, from a variety of sources?
Mr. McClune The TTI collected a lot of data. And they went to various states to determine who's using them and they went to the various states to get their data, and that's all in the written report.
Ms. Bents Ed, you have something that you'd like to say?
Mr. Moreland Yeah. I think it's great that we're looking for ways to increase the likelihood that drivers are going to be able to identify edges for roads and lanes and those sorts of things, but during the course of this study or similar studies, have they looked at the likelihood that a wider painted surface may increase the vulnerability of Motorcycles for slipping on those surfaces?–Either at crosswalks or intersections?
Mr. McClune Good question. It was interesting, just a little aside, I did have the opportunity to read this rather lengthy report, and the number one motorcycle issue for crashes is run off the road. That is where most of the accidents occur. Knowing where the edge of the road is, is pretty important. To answer your specific question, wider lines are used more extensively in Europe, then they are in the U.S., and I'm sure you've all traveled there. Most countries use 6 or 8 inch–or larger, in Japan they use 12 inch–lines. And, there are certainly opportunities there for the surfaces to be more slippery than not. And in those countries, they add an additional component, which is called skid-resistance. And, it is a gray material that goes in with the paint that's on the road. Crystobolite is typically what they use; it's the name of the product. Unfortunately, it's been identified as a carcinogen, so we may see less and less of that being used. But, the data is not quite clear as to whether they use the skid-resistances for cars or motorcycles; or for the bicycle traffic that occurs more so in foreign countries, than in the U.S. So, some of the original work that was done as to why skid-resistance is used in these foreign countries tends to indicate it's for bicycles, not for motorcycles and not for cars. To say that wider lines wouldn't be more slippery for motorcycles would probably be an incorrect statement.
Ms. Bents This was a topic that came up in our first meeting. (Mr. Moreland, "Right.")
Mr. Bloschock ...I'll go ahead and add my story. Which was, when we met last October, about a year before, I–after well over 100k miles on a motorcycle and keeping rubber on the road, I–hit a stop stripe, in a turn and put my Harley down pretty quickly. But, I recovered pretty well, with just one broken toe. I did a little bit of investigation–I now wear steel toes–and that thermo-plastic stuff is very, very slick. (Someone agrees.) In talking to the bicycle people, we found that there's plenty of evidence that bicycles have the exact same problems. I didn't know they were adding something to the paint, but I'm going to make a note of that.
Ms. Bents Gerry.
Mr. Salontai Well, since we're here to develop ideas to improve safety, wouldn't it be reasonable–it sounds like states, on a voluntary basis, are moving to wide stripes, so maybe it's something that the FHWA should consider; requiring wider striping. But in conjunction with that, that an abrasive, or a skid-resistant, material is added to those stripes. And then you're getting the best of both worlds. I agree, we had that discussion, and thermo-plastic markings are flat-out dangerous for motorcycles.
Mr. Bloschock The folks that were in charge of the thermo-plastic markings were amazed when I brought this up to them. Because they said they've been on panels where they were so pleased with the thermo-plastic, because it really increased the durability and the cycle to re-paint or whatever. But the one that I went down on was probably a quarter-inch thick with buildup of paint, thermo-plastic, or whatever. I hope to–I was in the field; inspecting that bridge in 1978. So it's been there a while, and it just kept building up this paint. So when I went out there later, you could see where my tire had just skidded across–and other tires. On top of stripes, just look sometimes at all the skids that are there; from either acceleration or deceleration. But, you can see my tire, where it skidded. And when you put your hand on there, it was very slippery.

Mr. McClune

ATSSA has looked at this particular issue. And, I think we discussed this the last time we were here, the emphasis at that point was at intersections; at stop bars, you know, those large intersection areas where there are broad delineation devices that are made of thermo-plastics. Stop bars could be 4 inches, 6 inches; they could be 3 feet wide, in addition to the arrows and those types of things. And, it's because you're coming in to a stop, in those locations; or, you're making a turn. There really wasn't an indication for long lines; that there was data that supported the long longitudinal lines–that there was data supporting the need. And then the other issue that you have to take into consideration is that one of the initiatives by the FHWA is to have brighter lines.

As you start adding these abrasive materials to the thermo-plastic, you start reducing the levels of reflectivity in those lines. So, there are some trade-offs here... that really need to be looked at. So for us to say–a very good point, but for us to say–that maybe we should have skid-resistance in all long lines... How many accidents are there–motorcycle accidents–as a result of long lines? There's probably some data on that. Versus, what is the trade-off in reducing the retro-reflectivity of those pavement markings by 100, 200 or more, milli-candela. So, it's a little bit more complicated than just adding it. That's why I think the last time we talked about that, one of the places that I think we could focus FIRST is at the intersection. Because, I think we'll all agree that, that's where we're coming in as motorcyclists to a stop. Those stop bars are slippery; those turn arrows are slippery. And, let's get some data there.

Ms. Bents OK. Darrel.
Mr. Killion As a sideline to what Mark mentioned about the thickness and accumulation of thermo-plastics, is it possible or likely that–lines marked on the outside of the road; what do I want to say? (from others, "edge lines") edge lines, there we go (Laughter); is it possible that–the buildup–and I realize that a quarter of an inch doesn't seem like an awful lot, but is it possible that–there's a wet surface or something that, in addition to the wetness of the road that, that buildup could affect the steering control of the motorcycle, to the extent that it would take them off the road? Maybe even under dry conditions. I don't know, you know, a quarter inch isn't much, but if any of us have ever–most of us have, I'm sure–hit a spot or seam, or something, in the road–or a place where they've cut rain grooves,–it does give us a very noticeable effect on our steering.
Mr. Bloschock I'm not sure how much it builds up on the edge tracking, since we tend to extend with paint there. But, the thermo-plastic that I see mostly is on the stop bars. And those are the ones that I've noticed as I've talked to folks in the industries. And that's the one, I agree, that we ought to be focusing on. The big arrows, or you know that word that says "Turn Only" or whatever it says (others agree), those are really big letters.
Mr. McClune Yeah, I think daresay that all of us have slipped on those with our bikes over the years. ...May not remember, or... It's just a common occurrence. Whenever you go into an intersection, you're going to hit a stop bar. And if that stop bar's wet and you're either braking or turning on that stop bar, you're going to lose traction.
Mr. Bloschock I know–and this happened to me–I went to our motorcycle safety folks over at the Harley dealership where I took a class after a 10‑year hiatus from motorcycling, and they said, "no, we always talked about the slickness of pavement; especially thermo-plastic." I said, "well, you didn't talk about it in my class." And so we got with some of the other members and now that is–on a case-by-case basis anyway, that is–something that they bring up and tell that story. Because, they did not talk about it in our 4-day class.
Ms. Bents Jeff, did you want to jump in here?
Mr. Hennie Slip resistance, is that something that can be incorporated with the thermo-plastic or only in the paint?
Mr. McClune It CAN be... When you apply a stripe to the road, there are various types of, call them, paint or binders. Thermo-plastic is one type. It's a durable one. If you go back to SAFETEA-LU, they're calling for brighter, more durable, pavement markings. Meaning that they work more effectively, over longer periods of time. And those durables include thermo-plastics. There are other types. There's epoxies, there polyureas, there's methyl-mephacolates. There are paints. There's a multitude of different types of materials that make the lines. There are 3 components. There's the paint, or the binder, there are beads, and then for skid-resistance there is this angular material that I was talking about. All of which gets dropped on the line. You saw the striping truck in the video, where they were putting down a painted line, and then the gun right behind–the paint gun–was the bead gun. For skid-resistance, there'd be a third gun that dropped in the angular material that created more friction to the line. So, it could be done in any form of binder. Hopefully, that answers your question? (Mr. Hennie, "Yes.")
Mr. Zimmer It's not mixed together; it's laid on top of one another. (Mr. McClune, "Yes.")
Ms. Bents Ed.
Mr. Moreland Steve, your point is a good one because if it's laid on top, and it wears..., you know, it's gone. It's not in the material, itself.
Mr. Zimmer Mixed together would mean it just wears evenly, and it's always there.
Mr. McClune Yeah, I suppose it could be done that way. (Someone says, "It should.") Right now, it's not.
Ms. Bents Ed.
Mr. Moreland In the course of the striping study that you've just presented, did they consider adhesion or skid resistance, as they did this striping study? Is that something that is commonly thought of, with regard to new technologies regarding brightness and wetness? Are they thinking about skid-resistance?
Mr. McClune No... Well, I don't want to say that categorically. Most of the studies that I read make very little mention of motorcycles... at all–most of them, not at all. And I think that's a part of why we're here, to bring attention to this issue, so that as they conduct these studies... I know last time we were here, we were looking at some guardrail information and data. And there was a piece that we saw where they–I guess it was somewhere in Europe, where they–were actually testing how motorcycles react with guardrails. Well, that's the first study I've ever seen, on motorcycles and guardrails. It's always just been automobiles.
Mr. Halladay So I guess the case would be... at least my observation would be that, in the case of both signs and markings, it's almost been exclusively about the visual impact (Mr. McClune agrees); both in dry weather, wet weather, and so forth, and the issue of either automobiles or motorcycles on the actual surface; it's been secondary, I guess, to the actual visual impact–the feedback from the edge markings, and so forth. So, it's probably not just for motorcycles but–well, obviously 4-wheelers might have much more stability, but as you get wider lines, and as you get more of the stop marks, crosswalks, and so forth, it is raising awareness...
Mr. McClune But on this study, there is absolutely no reference to motorcycles at all
Mr. Moreland Yes, that doesn't surprise me. In other words, I would suspect that most studies don't involve motorcycles and I'd like to express the motorcycle community's insistence on inclusion of motorcycles in all research and development of all intelligent transportation systems. I think it's really important in an environment...and I don't know, you know, forgive me for not knowing all the rules or the strength of action that we're able to take... (Ms. Bents, "We're making it up as we go, actually, so...) (Laughter) It sounds like, listening to everyone around the table that, skid-resistance is an important element of what we think should be considered, as new technologies are developed for brightness and increasing the ability of older riders, and every driver, to identify road markings. How do we as a body send a recommendation, some place, asking that skid-resistance be considered in all future striping development? I don't know what the protocol is, but I think it's something we should consider doing.
Ms. Bents Bob, do you have an answer for that? Or Mark?
Mr. Bloschock How we're going to do that... I mean, that's one of the recommendations that we'll make. In fact I think, the first thing that we brought up at the last meeting was slickness of paint stripes, particularly the edge marks–I'm sorry, the stop bars. And, I think that's one of the first things that we talked about... Now, there's a little bit of technical work to do there. We're supposed to be data-driven. So, I don't know if there's any data with this. However, this might be one of those things that's a no-brainer; even if there is data that doesn't exist. For example, if you took the time to read the Australian report, and I read most of it, they made plenty of recommendations there, even in the absence of any clear data, and we're probably going to be doing the same thing.
Ms. Bents Ken.
Mr. Kiphart I spent 30 years in law enforcement, and I can tell that, probably by and large, the investigators that show up for motorcycle crash investigations have no experience in motorcycle crashes. They have no training. So, if a motorcycle swung wide on a curve or slides off because of the paint, they will never figure it out. (Some agree)
Ms. Bents Ed. Go ahead.
Mr. Moreland I want to get Mark thinking about it. I'm just trying to understand the–it seems like a little bit of a "chicken and egg" kind of approach to make a recommendation for non-skid surfaces. So we have to provide data in order to make a recommendation; but we don't have any data because we haven't made a recommendation to get any!
Mr. Bloschock I see the point, but I'm going to go back to this. In Australia, they've made plenty of recommendations in the absence of data. They said, "There's really no data here; however, this is what we think," and I think that's what this group should do, too. Once again, we're supposed to be data-driven, but if there's no data... that's why we're here.
Ms. Bents Mel.
Mr. Stahl Besides, there's another issue. It's really for pedestrians, where at cross sections if it's wet you can slip on them.
Ms. Bents OK, Steve.
Mr. Zimmer If we're deriving our data from Accident Reports, and things like that, then we're only seeing the worse-case scenarios. We're not seeing those that weren't necessarily documented in an Accident Report, too. So we're missing a whole segment of what's going on out there. If somebody slips on it (thermo-plastic markings), they may not make a report of it, but they still slipped on it. And the other thing I was thinking is that part of the problem seems to be, not on making recommendations but, the process itself. If it has to be layered, and it can't be mixed together, then that's problematic. It's the process of actually putting it down that is the dilemma, it seems to me, we have to solve. Because the layering doesn't seem to be–FOR US–an effective way of putting these markings down. Because, once it starts to wear just a little bit, that's when it really gets slick.
Mr. McClune I think that's a technology issue, and typically these issues are solved by industry. My feeling is that if this committee feels that it's important that at intersections we have skid-resistance, industry will figure out a way to get it there; so that it's not just on the top, but it's mixed throughout the entire system.
Mr. Moreland So I guess my question then would be how do we push the industry to that direction? (
Mr. McClune ...You define something, like a policy strategy. You take which ever policy strategy in which your aggregates are tested, and how many applications or load. And then it gets slicker and slicker. This policy strategy is one that could specify friction characteristics. Industry, or the vendors, would jump in very quickly and make that happen. In other words, you have to meet a certain specification
Mr. Halladay Also maintenance of the value of lifetime now becomes part of your purchase specification or the contract. And that's where it actually, Government's role if you will, on what the states and locals buy and what they require. And then it becomes part of a testing and a certification process... It does get complicated. But, in terms of actually purchasing a cost-effective product that does retain friction characteristics and retro-reflective characteristics, and so forth.
Mr. McClune Going back to your question, I think at our last meeting we identified –and it was included in the meeting minutes–that brighter, wider pavement markings would benefit the motorcyclist and skid-resistance at the intersection would as well. I think the question is... what happens next? Now the reason why I came with this–why I brought you this data–was that we were talking based on experiences. We were talking, at the last meeting, based on our own individual industry knowledge, and I just–for this particular issue, I just–wanted to bring some data to support the point, which would reinforce all of our thinking - that yes, pavement markings are a critical part of vehicle guidance. Another point–one last point for wider lines, which I think may have some real bearing for motorcyclists... and I don't know how to present this, technically. But the reason why we have 4-inch lines is the MUTCD, which is the highway Manual for Uniform Traffic Control Devices, which all highway engineers go by, say that pavement markings shall be no less than 4 inches. That's what the manual says. So obviously, most states do 4 inches. But if you take a look at a 4-inch line and now you look at sight-distance–when you're on the edge of the road and you're looking at a 4-inch line; now especially if you're traveling at 60 or 70 MPH–at some point that line disappears. ("A wider line is going to go farther in the distance," someone says) And a wider line–if you start with a wider line–you're going to see that line farther down the roadway. So there's some data that supports this, that's still being done. But again I think, the overall deal here is "does this make sense?" And then we just need to put it in the minutes and then... you know. Because I was going to ask the same question anyway. Once we do this, what happens?
Mr. Halladay Well, the value of the Council identifying this issue is that it does certainly enter our consciousness at a higher level, at the FHWA. But when it comes to regulations, in terms of regulatory activity and purchase specifications, if you will, for markings and signs, and so forth, you get into decision-making that's made by all state DOTs that begin the specification making. And then, the regulatory environment that we go through–and we're in it right now for markings regulatory activity–is what is the minimum requirement, in terms of actually spending Federal-aid dollars for that material. And, it gets into cost and performance, and there are a lot of different factors out there, obviously. Yes, it is true that the wider lines are brighter and go farther down the road. How much is enough, if you will, in terms of safety savings and operational efficiency and so forth, to justify the increased cost? State DOTs, and local DOTs and highway agencies, are very cost-conscious. They're safety-conscious also, but there are both of those factors that go into it. So it enters our consciousness, if you will in terms of both the regulatory activities we do, the awareness-raising, if you will even among the designers and specifiers. I mean as you observed, this study doesn't even touch on the physical impact of that line–impact risk–affecting different vehicle classes–motorcycle crash prevention. At what point does that become a factor, then, that would drive the decision that highway agencies spending money would make on... that they have to have this degree of friction characteristics or warranty for some lifetime by the vendor, by the contractor.
Mr. McClune In some of the emails that I got–you know, I don't want to over-do this point, and we should move on, but–I received several comments by email about pavement marking. So I think pavement markings are a concern for all of us. And one of them that I thought was pretty interesting and gets to your point about the skid-resistance was about these spacer dots. You know these spacer dots that they're putting in the middle of the highways? That, I don't know what the distance is but, you're supposed to keep so many dots between you and the vehicle in front of you. They are big... white... dots... And one of the folks that sent me an email said that he really feels the need for those dots, but they probably should be hollowed out. Meaning, rather than a big white dot, it should be just an outline of a dot to increase friction... because now you're right in the middle of the road with a big slick piece of paint, and no one has ever thought of that before. And I go, "Wow! That was a pretty good insight."
Mr. Bloschock I haven't seen those. But if I saw those, I would bring up just the same point that you're bringing... Just like the arrow or the turn or the only... (Mr. McClune, "Right. Right in the middle of the roadway.") It's a pretty bad place to be. (Mr. Moreland, "Yeah, right in the middle of the travel lane.") Yes, right in the middle of the travel lane.
Ms. Bents Ed.
Mr. Moreland I'm not–I'm really not trying to be obtuse. (Laughter) I wasn't here for the first meeting and I apologize for that. But procedurally, I just want to know what the process is, for... you know, with all good intentions. And I know that because the folks at FHWA start to internalize and think about these issues and notice to think about, as we talked about what's in our minutes. That's not actionable. That's not something that we can come back to and say, "We put it in our minutes. Are you considering it?" What is the process by which we create some accountability or some expectation from the motorcycle community that FHWA–or whoever it is–is listening to our concerns and willing to incorporate some of our concerns into their research? You said, now you're in the middle of new studies on road surfaces and painting, and those sorts of things, but... (Mr. Halladay, "regulatory actions?") ...regulatory actions, yes–that I would know, or venture to guess, that (e.g.,) this issue is not among those being considered. And if it's not, how do we include it in the list of those items being considered. So we don't get another 2, 6, 10 years down the road without another inquiry or a study?
Mr. Halladay As an Advisory Council to the Secretary, to the Federal Highway Administrator as outlined in the Act, that's what comes in–is advice. And you're asking a very good question; what happens to that advice. It really, in terms of an advisory committee and the structure we're operating under, it has that status–as advice. It is not necessarily... empowerable, if you will, and so forth. So the quality of that advice, and the foundation and what it represents from the motorcycle community, is the impact it has. So, through us communicating and us letting you know what rule-making is underway, and yes, that's an opportunity for the individual associations and organizations that are here to reinforce that advice. Coming in early to the FHWA, there is value to that. I can't guarantee that we will respond and be able to do all of the items considered, recommended, advised to the Federal Highway Administrator. It doesn't officially enter the process, if you will, of regulation-making. But we're always looking at–maximizing our outcomes, if you will, in terms of safety gains in our areas that we are spending research and development dollars on, developing policies, developing in some case regulations–just really in a few cases, when we move things to a regulatory or legislative environment. But we do that–in the case of signs and markings, that's the kind of thing that's going on now. But from this group it comes in the form advice. And that's the Advisory Committee Act, if you will... And then exactly the accountability, and what we do with it, is something where we take that advice into consideration. So it does vary by issue.
Mr. Moreland What would you recommend to the folks around this table concerning our advice to FHWA? Or what direction should they take? Or, should they take the form of a broad statement like, "Please include consideration of skid-resistant surfaces when applying paint to road surfaces"; or should it say "Please conduct a study to consider elements of adhesion or skid-resistance in the application of road surface paints..." or those sorts of things? How much specificity is needed by FHWA, in order to seriously consider a concern of an Advisory Council?
Mr. Halladay That's a good question, and the answer is "it depends." And I know that's not necessarily a specific answer. But, if we know that there is a lack of knowledge, a lack of data, if you will, then that can be a very solid recommendation/observation coming in that's says this research needs to be done. Or if the sense of the group is that we're ready to move further, the observation might be more general–we need to do this. So, I think it can vary by topic. And both would be appropriate, depending on the case.
Ms. Bents Gerry.
Mr. Salontai Depending on recommendation–pavement markings vs. maintenance practices vs. design standards–do they take a different route? Is there a step-by-step process that can be mapped out, as to what happens to the state? I mean, does it go to different places, depending on what type of recommendation it is? (Mr. Halladay, "Sure...") And can you map out the steps; is that possible, including a timeline? I mean, what are we talking about, in terms of time? One year; 3 years; 5 years? Does it vary?
Mr. Halladay It does vary. I mean for example, many of the things we were talking about are not necessarily something that we, at the Federal level, would take the lead on. Most of our standards and methods, and so forth, are voluntary standards, and AASHTO is a big part of that. When it comes to, for example pavement design, we adopt by reference the policy on pavement design has been developed through AASHTO. We're a participant in that. So, we are usually doing these sorts of things in partnership with the community; AASHTO being a big part of it. So the design standards for example–the policy in geometric design, the green book, that sets design standards in terms of curvature, based on speed, design speed, and so forth–is an actual publication. It's incorporated by reference in our regulations. In the FHWA, it would atypical to find something that we actually go out and do, on our own; define a specification, define a requirement. What we are doing typically is–I mean, if there is a compelling case with a Federal interest, we definitely do that. But particularly when it comes to those design standards and what communities really needs for safety, vis-à-vis design, practicality, maintainability, all those issues come in to setting it up. And it is something that the AASHTO community, through various committees, NCHRP activities–we're part of those activities. And if it gets to a point where that design standard becomes a design practice/design standard, it's usually a part of an AASHTO publication that is incorporated by reference. Most of all... it's to be used for a Federal-aid process.
Mr. Salontai So would it be reasonable that a White Paper on each of these with recommendations would go to the various AASHTO committees? Is that a reasonable expectation? Or not?
Mr. Halladay That's one reason we have the members of this Council around this table including AASHTO (Mr. Salontai, "Right.") Don Vaughn was not able to join us. But as a group, what is the approach–and then there are various avenues. Not all of them would be Federal–I think you just identified...
Mr. Bloschock Don Vaughn's permission to say, from the state DOTs perspective–he and I already discussed that one thing. And from the state DOT perspective–not just Texas, but the two that are represented... Are you going to be here when I present after lunch? (Mr. Salontai, "Oh yes"). I'm going to cover that a little bit. I'm going to cover–I hope that we can even build on that a little bit after lunch–about the AASHTO process and some of the specs that are out there, or guidelines. One of the things that we get in to, there're not code. A lot of folks like to think of them as code. There aren't a lot of Federal codes that are the law right now. And there are some consequences for not following the code; the IRS code and various other codes... we have some laws there. Everything that we do in engineering is a specification or a guideline. We use engineering judgment for it. So there're not codes. So that's why you see some states using 6 or 8 or 12 inch wide lines, and some using 4. So what I think Mike is trying to say is we're working in guidelines here, right? Recommendations and guidelines, and then having different champions that will go forward–and I'll cover that a little bit more in my presentation.
Ms. Bents Steve.
Mr. Zimmer A question that keeps coming up in my mind–and goes back to your statement–that MUTCD says it has to be a minimum of 4 inches. Who drives that document? (Several say, "AASHTO.") AASHTO sets those standards.
Mr. McClune There's a committee from all the states that get together two or three times a year, and they go over that manual and they make changes.
Mr. Zimmer So they make accepted minimum standards to...
Mr. Bloschock Sometimes you see minimums, and sometimes you'll see a second level called "desirable."
Mr. Halladay And actually that's not just an AASHTO committee. I think there is a national committee for traffic control devices that I think is a joint effort. I'm out of my element, a little bit, that's across the hall in our Operations. But, I believe it includes members that go beyond the state DOTs. (Mr. McClune, "Right.")
Mr. Bloschock For instance, I'm on Taskforce 13; so that's AASHTO, ATC, and ARTCO. So you'll have industry and venders and the states.
Mr. Zimmer It seems to me that, that's a place where this needs to be directed, because those are the ones that are actually going to put it into place. The states are going to pick and go; this is what we have to do.
Mr. Bloschock From a state DOT perspective, when the designers for the state–or the state designers who oversee consultants–see that as a minimum, or a recommendation or whatever, then yes, you're right, you will see it implemented. There are many folks that just weren't aware–folks that have been in paint-striping for a long time–weren't aware that it is slick. They simply weren't aware of that; until I brought that up. I was amazed that these were people I've worked with for over 20 years. But by getting that awareness; that's where you start. It starts with awareness.
Mr. McClune Let me... help out a little bit. I've been working on these issues for 20 years, and how do you get these things done... There's one that's been absolutely amazing, that is a good example of what we're talking about. There is now legislation on Federal minimum levels of reflectivity for signage. And that actually came up through Congress. It was a political initiative that recommended that the issue of minimum levels of reflectivity for signage be evaluated and reviewed and recommendations for implementation. It's been going on for 10 years. And I think we're finally getting to a solution. So number one, it's a very slow process. But to answer your question, I think the route for this committee is that there has to be a recommendation that comes from this group. Maybe the report goes to Mary Peters, and she reads it. And she says, "You know what? I like this one, and I would like to direct the national committee and AASHTO to review it." That's what's going to have to happen. These are engineers in the U.S. that go in a room and say, we need to look at this issue called skid-resistance at intersections. And they will fuss and fight, and they will tell personal stories... And somehow at the end of the day, there might be an amendment to the manual that says there will be skid-resistance at intersections. In a nutshell, that's how it works.
Mr. Bloschock From the AASHTO perspective, things can happen very slowly. But, they can also happen very quickly. (Mr. McClune agrees)
Mr. Zimmer That seems to be the fast-track to getting some of this... We don't want to go through Congress, I'm just trying... with Ed's concerns and the things that we're talking about, we do need to know: how can we get some of these things implemented as quickly as possible? Because the bottom-line is some of these things are going to save some lives. And that's one of the things we have to be directed at.
Mr. Bloschock And actually, I'm going to cover that. Hopefully, we can re-open this after lunch.
Ms. Bents This might be a good segue, because Don Vaughn sent us 2 suggestions, apparently following this route.
Mr. McClune This issue is in my presentation, so I'll cover it with my PowerPoint slides, I'm ready to go.
Ms. Bents Oh, you've got it incorporated. OK
Mr. Salontai Does any of this go to the TRB? Does the TRB have a play in this?
Mr. Bloschock The TRB might have something to do with it, if we need more data...
Mr. Salontai ...if we need more data, right? So this might go to the TRB also.
Mr. Halladay But again, TRB is not necessarily a sponsoring entity. It would be the people who come together with them–maybe one, and others. So, TRB does operate a cooperative research program that AASHTO funds–the National Highway Cooperative Research Program–and they take on a lot of these issues on behalf of the multiple states, and DOTs. The example Bob gives, in terms of possibly what happens at the national committee on traffic control devices is very true. And there are a lot of issues that do come in to it; guidelines, and we'll get into this. But the types of things that come to the fore, and one of the reasons the sign-retro-reflectivity has taken so long, is the community is very nervous about the Feds coming in saying, you will have these minimum levels of retro-reflectivity. Because if there's a crash in their community, a small village or something, (someone says, "liability,") and they put in a stop sign that goes bad over a series of years and they get sued, they say, "the Feds say you have to. It's a liability..." So you have that issue, that's kind of cautioning the other side about how you make it a standard, how you make it a requirement, or vis-à-vis a guideline.
Mr. McClune The big one that puts the brakes on these things is the funding. Because a lot of these things are unfunded mandates. They come down from either the Federal Government or from FWHA and they say, "You know what? We need brighter signs," and the states and municipalities say, "Well, that's great. Who's going to pay for it?"
Mr. Bloschock From a larger state's perspective–we've talked about this before–if you look at our mission statement in Texas–and I'm sure all states look the same–safety is number one. And so I've gotten this argument, you know, hundreds or more times in my 28 years with Texas DOT, and you say, "What about our mission statement that we're number one in safety?" And then it's a little hard to–and you mentioned the cost/benefit ratio and that's true–but we tend to, at least in the larger states like Texas with billions and billions of dollars per year, we tend to dump off a lot of the cost issues and deal with the safety issues first. (Someone said, "Good for you.") ...but if it's safety, it's definitely come forward.) So if we need a larger stripe, we just do it.
Mr. Halladay And a lot of states have been doing it that way, and there are some that don't.
Mr. Zimmer At this point, actually right at this point in time, as a member of the motorcycle/moped committee on TRB, we are going through our research statements, at this point in time, to prioritize them. If we have a specific statement from this group, I can take that back and throw that into the mix. Perhaps add to the list of research statements from that committee and when someone is out there looking for research projects, it's there. It gives them ideas; grad students, whoever's looking for something to do. This is a place for them to go and find a research topic, and perhaps, this is something we can add into that mix.
Mr. Bloschock I have something I think maybe will get to what Ed is talking about.
Ms. Bents I hope we're going to get there... (Laughter)
Mr. Bloschock It's a question that I've had. So we all gather, and when we make recommendations, do we make recommendations when your 5, or 7, of this group? Or can make them every meeting? Can recommendations go forward that we've discussed this issue on pavements for 7 or 10 or 12 meetings; we're kind of beating it to death. So when do we take that recommendation and move it forward, up to you guys, and then up to the Secretary?
Mr. Halladay Good point...
Ms. Bents Let me speak as Don Vaughn, here for a minute on the 2 topics that he talked to me about yesterday. His suggestion was that the committee writes a letter of endorsement or makes a recommendation as a formal document to things like the AAASHTO committee. To lend the weight of the Council, as deliberations are taking place on various topics. Council, is that something that you think you should be doing?
Mr. McClune I think that a letter should be written to AAASHTO that says that they should consider motorcycles in every issue that they consider, and they don't do that. Most of the–forgive me, because I have attended many of these meetings–you never hear motorcycles come up, as a part of the reasons why they're doing things. It's all geared toward automobile traffic, truck traffic...
Mr. Salontai You said that the very first day, didn't you?
Mr. Bloschock And I'll tell you what–I'm going to take away some of my presentation for after lunch, but–I asked for... after our October meeting, I asked for an opportunity to speak to our district engineers–it's about 50 of them that all gather once a month. And I got that in January. Part of that presentation, I'm going to make after lunch. But after my presentation–a mere 15 minutes. They gave me 5 minutes, but I don't do anything in 5 minutes (Laughter)–and so, after a mere 15 minutes... I apologized for taking their extra time, and tried to be funny and all that other sorta stuff. I left the room, but my division head said that, that day they kept talking about motorcycle issues. There's only 1 in that group of 50 that's a motorcyclist. But they are in to that number one thing on the mission statement, which is safety. My division head said that someone brought up this issue and said no way that wouldn't be good for motorcycles; we heard about that. He said that came up 3 times in the rest of that meeting, which goes on for a couple of days. So it's a matter of awareness. It's a matter of getting to the right people. It's a matter of giving the right message. I try to do it in a funny way, so they'll remember it. And, we seem to have gone forward. I'll finish the story...
Ms. Bents OK. Anything else that we want to say about the recommendation strategy?
Mr. Halladay Steve, your point in terms of the avenue of research problem statements, that is an excellent avenue. And I think there are multiple ways to go forward. Yes, the advice to FHWA is important, and we feel we have a responsibility back to this group–important to motorcycle safety–to respond and move some things forward. That's one of the reasons that we're in this building, and a top point from the first meeting. But there are influences in avenues; letters to AASHTO, ATSSA and so forth.
Mr. Zimmer Would there be other committees at TRB that might benefit from a research statement that includes motorcycling as part of it; but say, a committee on striping issues or pavement type things, where that particular problem statement might get put in two or three different places?
Mr. Halladay I know in my experience, TRB committees frequently have liaison members to other committees–picking their spots. There's a safety management committee, and they have a liaison with safety data and a couple of other committees; Education, Training, and those sorts of things. Where there's a key interest–you kind of have to be careful about picking your spots, you know, anticipate all the volunteer efforts that go into TRB committees, but–that is a very natural way to move an issue forward.
Mr. Zimmer The reason I say this is because someone that goes through one particular committee's list of problem statements may not think of going to the motorcycle/moped problem statements. But they pick up on a problem statement there and work with that same group. I guess basically, hitting it in multiple different places at the TRB might be a way to go about that.
Mr. Bloschock I'm going to agree with my colleague here, who says you have to get the right part. Because otherwise, you're diluting it, and everybody thinks someone else is taking care of it. (Mr. Zimmer, "Right.")
Mr. Moreland That's really the core of what I'm asking. How do we create accountability, so we know if someone were to ask then someone is expected to respond? Because if we, as a Council, think that we're going to write a letter, and we're going to send it to AASHTO, and we're going to send it to TRB, and we're going to send it to FHWA–and all three of those bodies know that the other two have it, no one's going to do anything. And that's just how things happen.
Mr. McClune Mike. I hate to put you on the spot, but I will. I feel that FHWA ought to come to us..., and say, "here's what we're going to do." Versus us sitting here and saying, "well, what SHOULD we do?" And I'll cite the examples of the minimum levels of retro-reflectivity again. This has been worked over and over and over again by FHWA for pavement markings. Fifteen years, we've been talking about improving retro-reflectivity so you could see the lines at night. And we write letters, and we notify... we meet with our congressmen, and we talk to anybody that will listen, that we have the right to be able to see those lines on the roads at night. And so, if we take this forward, as a result of this committee saying that that is an important issue, what is FHWA going to do about it? One quick example–and I know I'm beating this to death–we have the ability to put lines on the road today that–and I'll give you a number that's meaningless, that's–five hundred milli-candela. That's a pretty bright line at night. Most of the lines in the U.S. today are measuring at or around 50 milli-candelas. Now, I should have brought a picture of that. You could take a meter and put it on this rug, and get more than 50 milli-candelas retro-reflectivity, and that's what many of our pavement markings are providing today. So if we as a group are saying that it's important for motorcycles to be able to see the roadway at night, and we identify that as an issue, I think FHWA should come back to us and say, "If you identify that, here's what we're going to do with it." I think that's a fair question.
Mr. Halladay And, I can tell you that–right now, if you want–that sign retro-reflectivity is the regulatory process. (Someone said, "it's done.") We have a schedule for taking on markings retro-reflectivity–the broad issue, not just motorcycles of course. I don't know what that schedule is, but certainly I'd be happy to get that information back out to folks; what current plans are. It does get complicated by a lot of factors–the amount of effort, the time and other things that come into it, but–right now we do have that on our radar screen, if fact, on our regulatory calendar. I can't tell you what the date is for markings retro-reflectivity, but it is in the near-term. I certainly can get that kind of information back to you.
Ms. Bents So Council. On the traffic markings, do we have Action Items or Recommendations? What are they?
Mr. Moreland I think a recommendation would be in order to recommend that in the creation of or consideration or revision of road marking materials and applications, that motorcycles are considered. I probably didn't word that as well as I probably could have, but essentially the point is as these technologies are developed, and as new materials are developed, and as widths and all those things are considered, that non-skid surfacing is also considered. Especially at the additional markings at intersections and stopping points.
Ms. Bents All right. That recommendation is for the FHWA?
Mr. McClune Could I... I'd like to add to that, if I could, if we're taking this down. I think we should–if we agree, we should... This is sorta like Robert's rules where we're making a motion (Laughter). I'd like to make a motion that FWHA carry forth–or this committee carry forward to FWHA–the desire to provide the motorcycle driving public with brighter, wider pavement markings, and to provide skid-resistance to those pavement markings where necessary. And then we have to determine where it is necessary.
Ms. Bents OK. What about the MUTCD?
Mr. Moreland While I really think it's important for us to define that in the initial direction we give to them. The other side is where they think it's important, whether or not it's the same places that we think it's important.
Mr. McClune And let's try to beat that to death. I think it's a given that we need it at intersections. We just don't know if it's needed in other places. And so, I don't know how to say... versus edge lines. Personally, I don't believe it's an issue for edge lines. I know it's an issue for intersections. (Mr. Bloschock, "and for center lines...") Center lines, too.
Ms. Bents Darrel.
Mr. Killion It could be an issue with edge lines in curves and so on. If a motorcycle ran up on a curve, and that line is slippery, then you would slide off.
Mr. Bloschock I've got a picture of that; I'll show it in my presentation.
Mr. McClune What I'm thinking is if you make a statement that talks to providing skid-resistance, where necessary; I'm hoping that someone will do a study that tries to determine where it's necessary. Because I don't think that's been done yet.
Mr. Halladay Well not that I know of, certainly.
Mr. Hennie What WOULD you make a recommendation on? Intersections, corners...
Mr. McClune For sure, intersections, and that's as far my knowledge goes.
Mr. Hennie Anything in the middle of the lane, like dots you were referring to, or the turns...
Mr. Bloschock Yeah, I was going to say, anything like the–I mean, we should be specific, the–dots, the arrows, the turn letters, school crossing bars. Whether it occurs at an intersection, or elsewhere.
Mr. Salontai Yeah, you could define it as where stopping or turning across the markings is going to occur.
Mr. McClune That's good. I like that.
Ms. Bents Would it be a good idea if someone volunteered to draft a paragraph that includes that recommendation? (Mr. McClune, "I think we just did.") (Laughter) ...for submission. Certainly, FHWA is getting the message; but, what about AASHTO?
[?Mr. McClune] I think AASHTO and TRB should both be–or all three of them should be–notified of our intention, or desire.
Ms. Bents Yes. Gerry.
Mr. Salontai Well that's why I was trying to get some clarity. Is FHWA going to take this to AASHTO and to TRB? Are we sending it directly?
Mr. Halladay Certainly in terms of the influence–the advice–from this Council, the motorcycle community that's represented here, is something that we're very happy to share with them. Now where it becomes actionable–when it goes into a process, like regulation–as I say, I know we do have on track markings regulation; mainly retro-reflectivity. But these other issues do need to come into it. I'll be the first to acknowledge that how they come into it, how specific we get, how much is regulatory, how much is guidelines, how much is required at the Federal level, vis-à-vis a standards or approaches or guidelines at the state and local level. That's where it does get complex. But taking that observation to FHWA, we certainly will share it with TRB as input from the MAC. Coming from the group separately to AASHTO and/or specific entities in TRB could be useful. And I would say that could be a valid thing. Really, the influence and I think the authority, if you will, of a group like this comes from the consensus building, comes from the fact that so many different elements are represented here. It is advice to FHWA, which we put into our processes, we put into our research needs in states, and AASHTO and TRB could also do the same.
Ms. Bents Food for thought?
Mr. Bloschock (to Mr. Halladay) Did you volunteer for this position, here? (Laughter)
Mr. Halladay It is more my interpretation, in terms of the role of an advisory committee, is that the Administration can accept or reject the advice of any advisory committee. But, the fact that we've convened it–we were asked to convene it–that's great. We are interested in convening it. We are supportive of addressing motorcycle safety needs from an infrastructure perspective. So we want to be responsive. Now, how much we can be responsive in each instance, depends on the instance. I just... I can't be more promising than that.
Mr. Bloschock ...In specific states though, even–let's say that... not really moving things forward that much, specific states–are going to do what it is they want to do... based on awareness. So, the awareness issue is really what comes out. You've got Sturgis in SD, you've got some big rallies down TX. I've got a memo with me, from our executive director. He's looking at some more stuff; he wants more stuff around the areas that have big motorcycle rallies. Change more messages signs. He wants Share the Road stickers out there, various other things going out–roadway icing signs. And it's newer things that are being brought forward and it appears it's going to be state by state. So, it's going to happen as long as the word gets out.
Mr. Halladay Raising awareness IS very important and we'll take some steps there. I think there were some examples offered last time of motorcycle groups that are giving state DOTs advice to their actions, in their highway safety planning. State-based motorcycle entities as a part of that look at what the safety needs are within the state. So, yes, it happens at that level also.
Ms. Bents Ready to move on? ("Yes") All right, our next topic was signage. Jeff.
Mr. Hennie Yeah, I was supposed to bring a picture of a sign on the beltway, I took after our last meeting. It got deleted, I realized, earlier this week. I wasn't able to go back out to the beltway and take another, but it was a picture of a motorcycle and a picture of a bridge, and it says, "Open Joints." (Elated response from some) I just didn't have time to actually go out there very often, but I will get it to the group another time.
Ms. Bents OK. Don Vaughn was also going to talk about signage, but as Mark pointed out, he's going to incorporate that into his presentation, which will take place after lunch. So we have 15 minutes here, if someone has a topic that's not on the agenda, we can slide it in.
Mr. Hennie I have one thing that I think ties in here, as we talked about surface markings; I just wanted to talk about the surface, itself. As we move to engineered materials to mimic stone or brick, and they're using those in crosswalks, to dress things up. And a lot of times, that's private property, shopping centers or gated communities, and things like that. But I also think that's just put under the scope of potentially hazardous, or more dangerous, surface materials than asphalt or traditional concrete. Some of these newer things, are they being tested for skid-resistance type?
Mr. McClune ...and it's interesting that most of those materials that you're talking about are, in fact, preformed thermo-plastic; which is exactly the material that you're talking about.
Mr. Hennie So you know what I'm talking about; like sandstone...?
Mr. McClune Sure. Sure, look's like Belgian block.
Mr. Hennie So again, those are cheap heated sorts of things...?
Mr. McClune Right, and it gets back to the earlier points that literally–you know, if you talk to a state traffic engineer, you may get an argument; but there's not a lot of consideration given to motorcycles; certainly not at the manufacturing level. Products that most folks are coming out with today, that are safety-related products, are geared more toward the automobile–and, "yea, if it works for motorcycles, well then that's good, too." And I don't know how to fix that.
Mr. Hennie That's a fact of life that we're hopefully going to fix, somewhat, by addressing that or...
Mr. McClune ...Maybe this helps that. Maybe this gathering–like I say, we're starting to get momentum just from the emails that are taking place. (Pause...)
Mr. McClune By the way, ATSSA published some of the minutes of the last meeting that we had. I wouldn't know where they would get that, but I think I helped. (Laughter)
Mr. Halladay We actually had a lot of this material up on the Website...
Mr. McClune ...and ATSSA then took that and distributed it to all its members. And, a lot of folks got pretty excited about that.
Mr. Oliver We recently had a meeting, and that's when I mentioned that's where it was.
Mr. McClune ...So maybe getting to the point, we need some publicity. How do we let the TRBs and the ATSSAs and the AASHTOs of the world know that we exist?
Ms. Bents One item would be to have a formal recommendation that is endorsed by the Council, and submitted to advocacy groups, Federal agencies... Ed, yeah.
Mr. Moreland Another procedural question, if we were to write a recommendation officially to AASHTO, FHWA, TRB, is that a letter that we all sign? Does it fall under a letterhead that doesn't exist? How do we do that, as a Council? Does that come from the Administrator or from the Council?
Mr. Halladay

I'm surprised you hadn't asked that yet. (Laughter) I don't know. We don't have official processes or procedures that I've been aware of. Fran, I don't know if you've dealt with this, in terms of any other activity, or not. The report outlines recommendations, observations and advice from the group. That's documented in the open public meeting and a report does come to the FHWA. Now if the members would like to put more formality to it–in terms of a jointly-signed letter–I certainly think we can manage that, if you decide to do such a thing. But in terms of sending it on, or providing it AASHTO or this and that, we could take on that role; to say that this advice has come to us and we want you to be aware of it.

Now if any of the members, or the Council as a whole, wants to put more horsepower to it, for some observations to add to it, you are technically the advisory committee, the advice Council to the FHWA–the Secretary through the FHWA. So, if there's some specific observations that you as a group want to make to AASHTO, or TRB or other entities that certainly is information that we would provide. Now, if there's something specifically that you would want to ask of those other groups, based on the influence, based on this group coming together, I think that could be a separate letter. There are not rules that prohibit it, so my observation would be something that isn't prohibited could be done.

Ms. Bents Darrel.
Mr. Killion Well I think as a Council, we probably should develop some kind of a letter of recommendation; if for no other reason than it puts a face on what we are doing here. (Someone agrees.) We would just pass it on, through the FHWA or something... It leaves us kind of faceless (without it); I guess would be the best way I could say that.
Mr. Halladay I could agree with that, I could understand that–we can certainly provide the advice of the Council to others, but coming more directly from this group could be more influential. I'm not saying we're not influential with that bunch–we are–but the fact that we come with that direction also...
Mr. Killion What I'm thinking is that we should take it from both approaches. That way you've got the bases covered.
Ms. Bents If that's the case, we need someone to volunteer to draft the resolution about striping. (Pause) Gerry.
Mr. Salontai Wouldn't it be best to collect all the recommendations in one?
Ms. Bents It depends. If you're going to specific committees or sub-committees, (someone says, "then, yes.") better to have specific topics targeted... I don't think these need to be lengthy, perhaps a couple of paragraphs...
Mr. McClune I'd be more than pleased to do it; I just don't see where it's going to do much good. I hate to say it.
Ms. Bents Better to light a candela, than curse the darkness. (Laughter)
Mr. McClune No. No. No. No. I have to tell you that I've done this for years and the strength of what is going on here, is that this is a FHWA-sponsored event. And the strength... I've got to tell you, lots of people know me in the industry, but a lot more know Mary Peters. So, guys, if you think that letter from me to TRB is going to help our cause–even if you all sign it–that's great. But, if a letter comes from FHWA to these agencies saying this is what we're all about and this is what we're doing and these are our recommendations, personally I strongly recommend that that's the route we take.
Mr. Moreland Well I don't envision them being mutually exclusive things. I think that it's incumbent upon FHWA, this being a committee within their structure, they should send the letter, representing the needs, desires, and recommendations of this Council, but I don't think that necessarily precludes any of us representing our own organizations in a supporting capacity; to send a letter from AMA or from anyone else to the committees ... (Mr. McClune, "Not a problem. I totally agree with that."). But as far as drafting the recommendation, if we can copy and pull from letterheads from our own organizations... What I think you're asking is who's going to draft the recommendation to send to FHWA.
Ms. Bents Well actually, FHWA gets the minutes and transcripts and so forth. So, Mike's aware of it and that avenue is somewhat established. But as a stand-alone couple of contacts...
Mr. Moreland It's a nuance, but I think it's an important nuance–that there is a difference. Let's go back to the first thing I said today. There's a difference between it appearing in minutes some place and us sending a directive for action–as a recommendation. And because it's in minutes, they (can) go, "Oh, that's really interesting what they really want..." But no one said, will you do this; or will you consider this. And I think that's an important distinction...
Mr. Kiphart Like in emergency site scene management, you point to someone and go, "you, go call 911!"
Mr. McClune Right. But FHWA can't do that.
Mr. Halladay This group can do that to FHWA though, in terms of pointing out issues.
Mr. McClune Yes. But FHWA can't do that. What you've suggested, FHWA can't do that.
Mr. Kiphart They can't do what?
Mr. McClune I don't believe that FHWA can make a call to action to these agencies; on this particular issue.
Mr. Halladay But I am saying if you can represent what we've heard and what the sense of this group is, because they're reporting it to us...
Mr. Moreland I'm not suggesting they make a mandated call to someone and say you have to do this. I'm saying that, as a result of our recommendation, that they make specific considerations of our needs. They can report to AASHTO and to TRB, this is what they've referred to us; this is what they think, or are their concerns. And we act on their sentiments, and please consider doing a study, TRB–or AASHTO, do a study or report to your committees for consideration. But I don't think it's enough to simply allow the minutes to stand as they are, because we may as well not get together. Because everyone already knows what we think; it doesn't require any action by anybody.
Ms. Bents And... my view on it... there's the fact that a recommendation that is made to FHWA, that then gets passed on to AASHTO, does not necessarily carry a FHWA endorsement. (Someone said, "Right.")
Mr. Halladay People on up the line–including Jeff, including Rick Capka, and so forth–recognize what we can and can't do; or what should or should not do, because there is due process all those sorts of things. But what we can say is, "this is what we're hearing, this is the specific recommendation we're hearing," from the Motorcyclist Advisory Council, a chartered advisory group with standing and influence. And here's what they're observing. So we can say, please consider these as efforts go forward–AASHTO, TRB, or whatever. So I think that we could definitely do something like that. It is true that the degree to which we put our support or our additional words around it, I'm not sure how much of that is feasible. As I say, the advice comes in to us. We have various ways that we can move forward with that advice. We have research and technology program funds, which are budget-constrained, in the areas of roadway departure, intersections, pedestrian safety. Each one of those which could be an avenue to potentially fund something looks into this. The Crash Causation Study, Carol's going to talk about, certainly is one. But we're putting a little more data around it, and I know that's out there somewhere, so there is concern about timing and everything. But certainly, what we can do with the advice that comes in is share it with others, and see how it fits in with what we can do with what we have on the table in front of us. Such as, the regulatory schedule.
Mr. Moreland I think it's important for all of us around this table to remember that as important as asking for action is, the added importance of creating a record, a public record, of inaction by people who choose not to take our recommendations–for whatever reason. I mean, there are completely legitimate reasons. But we shouldn't preclude ourselves from asking the questions because we don't anticipate anybody doing anything. There may be completely legitimate reasons for research, or budget issues, or other safety issue that aren't being considered for motorcyclists, that would preclude FHWA or AASHTO or anybody else from allowing our recommendations to be taken into consideration. But, it's incumbent upon us, representing motorcyclists, to ask the question, ask for action. If someone down the line decides not to do it, then at least we established that we've asked for it and they've decided not to do it. And if motorcycling safety continues to be an issue, we've established a record that we've asked for specific action and they haven't done it.
Ms. Bents So Bob, can we take you up on your offer?
Mr. McClune Yes, like I said, I have no problem drafting a recommendation. It will be in my words and I think it needs to be circulated among the group to make sure that everybody is in agreement with it. And then..., I don't know... Mike, I feel sorry for you; because you're going to have to somehow take that and put it in FHWA words. (Laughter) And I don't think that's going to happen.
Mr. Halladay The nature of the advisory committee, I think, is very much the way Ed stated it there. The reason this group has come together is to independently put some thoughts, advice, recommendations, on the table and say, "hey, what are you going to do about it?" And you're right, we may have to say no, to some, most, whatever, and have reasons. I appreciate what you said about that, too. But I do think, as a group this Council has independent authority to say these are observations; this is our advice. And challenge us, others, to take the advice, act on it, or for whatever reason not be able to. So, no, don't feel sorry for me. If we need to answer, no, for some things, we'll tell you that is the situation and the reasons why.
Mr. Oliver Mike also, earlier you pointed out in your comments that there is an annual Fiscal Year report that you send out to the Secretary, that I think goes to–I know you don't really want to hear this, goes to–the Secretary's office, to, I believe, GSA and of course they review the thing on up through the bureaucracy. But, that is not until the end of the fiscal year. So that is also a location for at least mentioning what is happening.
Mr. Zimmer I think it's important to note that at the last meeting, we made a recommendation for a brochure to send out to state DOTs. Here it is.
Mr. Oliver By the way, this is just a draft!
Mr. Zimmer I realize that. But here we are 7 months later and we have something in our hands, that we can look at and go over–you know, this looks good; maybe we ought to change this a little bit, –but we are near completion on a project that started from this committee 7 months ago, on a recommendation. And I think, you know..., we're dealing with Government. It takes time for some of these things to happen. (Mr. Bloschock, "and sometimes it happens quickly.") Sometimes it DOES happen quickly; you never can tell. So, I think we have the opportunity to move forward with some good things and build some accountability; but at least move forward on them.
Ms. Bents All right! How about on that fine note we break for lunch. Please come back by 1:30.
LUNCH
Ms. Bents CALL TO ORDER
Ms. Bents Ready to begin again? We have Dave Winter with us, from FHWA, and he's going to do an update on motorcycle VMT (Mr. Winter, "I could...") (Laughter) and whatever else you want to talk about.
Mr. Winter Well, I've distributed a handout. And basically it's talking about a symposium that we're putting together for the summer. It's a symposium to look at motorcycle travel and the issues surrounding the collection of travel information. What we're proposing is to put together the symposium comprised of people from the states, traffic, collection technology group, academia, as well as other people who are interested in motorcycle travel data. We have the advocacy groups, motorcycle vendors, and other people who may at one time have touched motorcycle or traffic information, such as the vehicle maintenance people who work on motorcycles–any possible source of motorcycle travel data. And basically, the purpose of the symposium is to 1) improve and enrich the quality of the existing data that we're getting right now and 2) look at better ways to estimate motorcycle travel, on a state basis, and also national level. And we're looking at one of the possible solutions that is to incorporate more surveys–more information from surveys–into the estimates of travel. Not just Federal surveys, but maybe to look at some of the private surveys that are done, and then also to look at new technology, to see if there's some technologies on the horizon or that are currently available, in order to tap into better motorcycle travel data. Basically, we're thinking motorcycle travel is kind of a puzzle. And right now, we're only looking at it from 1 or 2 different directions. We want to see if there is a possibility to look at it from a bunch of different directions to get a picture of motorcycle travel. So, I wanted to come here, just to tell you about the symposium and that in the future, we're going to start working on putting together the agenda. And I'd like to work with everybody here to get your feedback and input into setting up the agenda, and identify some possible speakers, and then identify some people who would be there at the table. Because we want to make sure that everybody who has an interest in motorcycle travel is represented. (Shows the motorcycle symbol) This is a sad symbol right now; I just found out that I have the funding, today. So, I'm just kicking off this symposium, right now.
Ms. Tan Will law enforcement be included in the group...?
Mr. Winter I originally didn't identify them, because I didn't see them as a source of motorcycle travel information, but definitely I can see where they would have an interest. Basically, we plan on putting together a team, or a panel, to help organize the symposium and that would be something that would be run by the group of people that are selected to see what they say.
Mr. Salontai Well there was a discussion earlier where I thought that there might be some way to improve the collection of accident data. So, it might be appropriate for law enforcement to be involved. You said, summer of 2007; is there a date?
Mr. Brennan Well, originally I was planning on summer. It took a couple of months to get the money. So now I am going to have to push it back. It will probably be September, maybe October. We're anticipating it will be a fairly large conference, and so I want to spend enough time advertising it, setting up the space. We need to come up with a decent agenda, and all that, and this will take some time.
Ms. Bents David, how can people get in touch with you?
Mr. Winter That's a very good question; I didn't bring my business cards.
Mr. Halladay We can get a note out, actually, to the whole group via email. David is in charge of our overall highway performance monitoring systems –for our Policy office. He's been heading up a reassessment of that program, and vehicle classification is one of the key issues, particularly motorcycles, because of the concern in the industry. So, he's very much tied in with the people at the state DOTs, and otherwise who operate these classification counting vehicle systems, and so forth. So, there's a good opportunity here, we think, to really get to move that forward.
Mr. Winter I should have started by introducing myself. I'm with the Office of Highway Policy Information and my division is in charge of the Highway Performance Monitoring System. One of the outputs from the Highway Performance Monitoring System, or HPMS, is travel VMT, and we do it by vehicle function or by vehicle class. Obviously, motorcycles would be one of the vehicle classes that we provide data on. And through the reassessment, as Mike said, we identified motorcycle travel as one of the deficiencies in our database, and so we're trying to improve the quality of these data. And this is just one of the efforts to look beyond our traditional means of gathering data.
Mr. Halladay ...and this is the source data of the denominator for fatality rates –at the Federal level anyway, that you mentioned, others would track these fatality rates... (Mr. Bloschock, "and states?") Yea, true. So there has been concern about the data, because of the different days of the week, and hours of the day, and electronic means of classifying vehicles, just today's technology; there are a lot of issues. But, this will, in fact, put them all out on the table.
Mr. Winter We're trying to tie together all of the pieces and put them together somehow.
Ms. Bents Any questions, comments, suggestions?

Mr. Bloschock

I was just going to build a little bit on what folks were saying about involving law enforcement. Because in TX, we have the data–and I'm not an expert on this, but we have this CRIS data: Crash Reporting Information System. And we're just trying to get that up a little bit better than being able to access 2001. So it's just really about to go online with that. And you know when we look at things–particularly from one of my interests, which is bridge-rail–this data is showing that we've had 90 over-rides or breaches of bridge-rail in the last year. I don't believe that. OK, so what is happening? How is that being coded up by the law enforcement at the time? Are they mistaking guardrail for bridge rail? In other words, there are a lot of issues here.

Over here, we were talking a little bit about the contribution of pavement striping, and the slickness of pavement striping, if that was a contributor. Or was it just purely a run-off-the-road, motorcyclist-falls-asleep type accident. So, there's numerous things that we–I think everybody–would like to work more closely on with law enforcement, to make sure that stuff's being coded for motorcycles that's unique enough that we kind of know what we're doing today.

Mr. Winter OK. Well, I think that's a little bit beyond the initial scope of the symposium. We were trying to get at, primarily, the travel estimates. Looking at exposure, as far as how many motorcycles are on the road or better yet how many miles are motorcyclists driving within a span, actually by system of road. Not really getting in to the other side, which is the safety side; looking at the crashes, the causes of the crashes. We're just trying to answer that exposure question. Where are motorcyclists riding? How many miles are they riding on the roads? It just a piece of the safety puzzle. But what you're describing really goes beyond the purpose of the symposium, because that gets more into the safety coding, causation, and really that's not the purpose of the planned meeting.
Mr. Halladay It does remind me, there's an activity–again, I think NHTSA has the lead on it–on re-analyzing the MUCC, the Model Uniform Crash Criteria, which is the data gathering guide that every state is asked to adopt. And that gets adopted to various levels, within state DOTs. And then, there is a training challenge to the enforcement officers who have to fill out the police accident report. So, yes. That is the characteristics of the crash and what you actually collect, vis-à-vis the exposure data that David would be focusing on with the symposium.
Mr. Winter I should mention that the HPMS–we are proposing that the future HPMS–will be a Geospatial database. Our data will be tied to an actual real network. So to the extent that all these other data can be put on the same network, you will be able to do much better analyses. So that's outside of this, but it is within my area. We are going to a Geospatial network, and I think that's in line with what Mark and I are both proposing, as well. So, that will go a long ways towards being a more advanced analysis. (Someone asks, "How long will that be?") Our target date is 2010. We'll have our folks reporting, provided their databases are ready for it, in 2009. We have some states that are reporting their data in a Geospatial format, but we're planning to have everybody, starting in 2010, to go to the Geospatial format. We've been trying to provide guidance to the other agencies, as far as the coding. Anything else?
Mr. Halladay The Steering Committee you're putting together, is that going to be mainly Federal?
Mr. Winter I think it should be both private and government.
Mr. Halladay So potentially, if folks have a particular interest in that, they should let you know?
Mr. Winter Absolutely. I'm currently working with NHTSA. NTSB's office has expressed an interest in being a part of this. Yeah so, if there are any groups that would like to be involved in the planning, that'd be great.
Ms. Bents Thank you so much. Before we move on to construction topics and Mark's presentation, I just want to spend a minute reviewing what I think we accomplished this morning. Let me know if this looks right to you, in terms of the recommendations and action items. Did we miss anything? Or misrepresent anything? The recommendations: 1) Web-based survey to identify rider-safety issues and to notify, and include these groups, and let them know that this survey is being set up; 2) pavement markings should include skid-resistance, definitely at intersections; 3) research should be conducted on pavement markings, with regard to line-width, retro-reflectivity, and skid-resistance; Ed?
Mr. Moreland Can I make one modification, or at least one suggestion? (Ms. Bents, "You sure can.") In the second point, instead of us trying to enumerate the places where we need skid resistance, would it be easier for us to say that, "Skid-resistance should be included in all roadway applications of paint, unless–whomever it is that decides those things–decides that it's not needed in specific places?
Ms. Bents I think that got you into the 3rd one, but... (Mr. McClune, "Can I comment on that?") Please.
Mr. McClune One of the things that–I hear what you're saying and it's a very valid point. One of the things that–I worry about is that these written documents, especially - forgive me - within the Federal Government, have a tendency to take on life of their own. And so therefore, I think we need to be very specific, because there are other issues at play here. There are agencies that might take what you're suggesting, and say, "what we need to do is have skid-resistance on all pavement markings. That is probably not necessary and definitely counter-productive to another initiative; which as I said before has to do with the brightness of pavement markings. In other words, they could come and say, "Well, we need to have skid-resistance in every pavement marking. But you know what? The pavement markings are not going to be as visible anymore. So, that's an interesting choice. So I do think we have to be careful. The other piece, of course, is the funding issue. If you were to talk about putting skid-resistance into every pavement marking in the U.S., you're going to have AASHTO and everybody else going through the roof. So, I just think we must be pretty careful in what we're saying.
Ms. Bents OK. Would you re-phrase number 2 or number 3, in some way?
Mr. Moreland The way that that currently reads, it says at intersections. So that would mean that the dots we're talking about on the road and the crosswalks and the words that are printed near schools, all those things would be excluded (Mr. Bloschock, "and center stripes,") (Ms. Bents, "we talked about center stripes.") ...if we use that word.
Ms. Bents Edge striping, maybe on curves?
Mr. McClune Then we have to make the list of the places. (Agreement) But, you just can't say, "all pavement markings."
Mr. Moreland Well, unless they say it is not necessary...
Ms. Bents Well we can drop number 2 and keep number 3, which says do some research on it... Is that better?
Mr. Zimmer I guess I'm confused, because I'm trying to think of an application where there would be a pavement marking where we wouldn't want to have–where it wouldn't be necessary. I don't know, I'm not picturing anything in my mind, as I drive down the road,...
Mr. McClune Maybe we need to look at some data. I have never seen any data that suggests that we need skid-resistance on long lines for motorcycles. So what we're saying there is that we're just going to put skid-resistance everywhere because we think there's a problem there. And edge lines, let me tell you, that's a big chunk of business; edge lines and center lines, in this country, because every roadway is mandated to have lines on the road. Versus intersections, where I think our personal experience is that's where we've had our difficulties. Has anybody here slipped on an edge line while on a motorcycle? I'm just not aware of that being the case. If that is an issue, then I think we should bring it forward. I'm just not aware of any data or any research that says there is.
Mr. Killion The only thing I'd like to add to that is, coming from a state where almost every road is straight as an arrow, in most accident reports motorcycles go off the road into a curve–on curves. The reasons for that... there are probably a multitude of reasons, but we typically don't go off the road in SD when we're going down the road, because the road is straight as an arrow.
Ms. Tan But that's not atypical of roadway accidents, anyway, that's where we get most of our off road crashes.
Mr. Killion No. My point being is that you're talking about the road edge lines, that curves are an issue.
Ms. Tan My point is it's an issue for all vehicles. It's not just motorcycles. Some of it's delineation; some of it's design, and some we just don't know.
Mr. Salontai You know, there's a practical side to things, and practical side is without any data, as you suggest, it's tough to make a recommendation on cost impacts, and then we have DOT represented and we hear that cost impacts, if you did that with every roadway in America, would be an awful lot. And we already know that SAFETEA-LU could be 3 times the size it is in funding, and still not get the job done.
Mr. Halladay That's a dilemma. I mean someone said, "at appropriate locations for motorcycles." I mean, we're not going to engineer or design it or give an exhaustive list, here this afternoon, but the sense of it is at the appropriate locations. And yes, there will be those trade-offs with long-term retro-reflectivity, long-term visibility, and other costs, and so you do some curves, perhaps, and dots in the center, and that sort of thing–intersections. But that's where, perhaps, research would help us. That's where practicality concerns say, "hey, this is where it makes sense."
Mr. McClune Unless we wanted to say that we recommend that FHWA conduct a study that determines where skid-resistance is required for safe motorcycle travel. I don't know which way this committee wants to go. But for us–and I was worried about this, the last time we talked. And as a matter of fact, I made the correction, because the minutes said "skid-resistance for pavement markings. And I think I sent you an email back and said, "Well wait a minute. Are we talking about all pavement markings? Or are we talking about those areas where there is the need?" I guess the problem is how do you identify the area where there is the need and, without a doubt, intersections are one of those. Now, are there others? Maybe. And let me give you another example. I know I go on too long about this, but in Europe they use skid resistance, and in Europe the visibility of the pavement markings are terrible. It's very low retro-reflectivity, because what happens, Mark, from a technical perspective, this crystobolite, or literally ground glass or sand type of substance that they put in with the pavement markers, has a blinding effect to the material that's in the line that causes retro-reflectivity. So the light from the driver's eye never gets back to the driver. So we could have really good skid-resistance in all our pavement markings, but not see them at night. And that's what I'm worried about. (Mr. Bloschock, "Well texture, in general, tends to suck up light.") Right. Right. So I don't know how to do that.
Mr. Moreland Let me be clear, here, I'm not saying we should put texture in every stripe put on the road. I'm saying that it may be better to err on the side of allowing those experts who are vested with the responsibility of deciding where it goes, that it should go in appropriate places–instead of creating an exhaustive list. They have the option to tell us, "We don't need it on a 400-mile straight road across SD. Where we need it is when you get off the Interstate at the exits." Those are the places that it's totally appropriate.
Mr. McClune I totally agree with that.
Ms. Bents OK. Now can we go back to the recommendations? (Mr. Bloschock, "and put an end to this.") So on number 2... I'm sorry. Nick.
Mr. Artimovich The basic question is you don't have a handle on how many crashes are caused by this skidding that happens and you are discussing it here. How can we come up the recommendation to say that you want to change all the pavement markings? I've heard this previous discussion of how someone has a recommendation, but without really a handle on how many crashes occur because of this issue, I don't know how we can modify and say that this is a recommendation,
Mr. McClune I'm in agreement. I'm in agreement with that. You know to a certain degree as well, I think we talked earlier about the fact that the police who do the traffic accident reports are not necessarily attuned to issues of the motorcycle. I think there's not a lot of data–period–about these kinds of issues. But maybe that's the reason why this group is here, because we're adding practical experience of our driving motorcycles to the knowledge base. And maybe that's enough information to act on, to a certain degree. And those areas that we've identified as trouble areas should be brought up.
Mr. Salontai And furthering that point, not withstanding the data, even if you have the data, I believe at intersections many, many accidents go unreported. You know, the bike falls, it has some minor damage. They get up and they up and they go. No report was ever filed, there's no data... (Laughter). We could maybe glean that data out of a survey, if we wanted to. But I think we all know in our gut, from our own experience, that many of those are unreported. I've seen many a bike go down. I saw just about 3 weeks ago; a right-had turn with a crosswalk. The guy went down with somebody on the back and just picked the bike back up, (Mr. Bloschock, "and gone,") ...and gone.
Ms. Bents I have a lot of years of crash investigation experience and I can tell you that you're exactly right. And there are also minimum thresholds for reporting, state by state–it can be injury-producing or it can be a certain dollar amount of damage to vehicles, and so forth. So yeah, there's a huge pool of unreported crashes and incidents in the U.S. So I don't think you're ever going to get all the data that you might want. And as Ken mentioned, police are not–most police officers are not–trained in crash investigation, per se, and certainly not the kind of detail that you would need for an adequate motorcycle crash investigation. So, that's why we have a talent pool of experienced motorcyclists.
Mr. Halladay I think perhaps a minority, a small number of states, have motorcycle groups advising their state entities. It's like a focus group. It's the kind of conversation like, "where are you having problems?" I mean, that could come up in various ways, and I think it is valid for this group to make this observation.
Ms. Bents OK, let's stay focused. What do you want to do about these recommendations? What did we hit; what did we miss? Something you want to drop–rephrase?
Mr. McClune How about making #3... I sort of feel like we've identified intersections as a problem here. So I think if we feel that, we should say that; that we should... OK, that's #2. But on #3, maybe we say something along the lines of, "We support improved pavement markings, with regard to line width retro-reflectivity and skid resistance, where necessary."? That would take those other places into consideration for skid-resistance. That's just a suggestion.
Ms. Bents ...And then you just say, "with regard to," the things that you have in mind? Sure.
Mr. Zimmer ...number 3, just say that we're going to do research..., "conduct research on pavement markings to identify areas problematic to line-width, retro-reflectivity, skid-resistance." So in other words, the research is done in areas where it's problematic, and list some of those areas...
Ms. Bents So that would be like #3 and #4? Three says, we support research on pavement markings with regard to those topics, and #4 we want to see improvements? Those are 2 separate things...
Mr. Halladay And I think the other thing we said, with respect to motorcycles–that's what I was thinking on the 3rd bullet, that research–any activities should recognize the needs and impact on motorcycles. Perhaps that phrase goes without saying.
Mr. Bloschock I think, and maybe everybody won't like this idea– maybe, we should put things in priority (order). It's really motorcycles, bicycles, and pedestrians. There is a tremendous amount of effort that goes into bicycles and pedestrians, and this benefits all 3. By breaking out motorcycles only, you're going to hear, "Oh well, we don't really care about motorcycles," but no one is going to say, we don't care about motorcycles, bicycles, and pedestrians.
Mr. Kiphart Not only that, but that might open up other committees at TRB; they might pick that up as research.
Mr. Bloschock ...and it's going to benefit all 3 of, what I call, these most vulnerable groups–the most vulnerable classes of highway injuries.
Ms. Bents Ed.
Mr. Moreland Two things. One, and this is a clarification issue–Mark, maybe you can answer this–how are intersections defined? We say intersections; is it 100 feet leading up to the intersection? Because that's where a lot are. School, it doesn't come in the middle of the Interstate 50 miles from the school, it comes up right before the intersection to a school.
Mr. Bloschock So when we say intersections, we're also saying school zones and crosswalks. So we have to kind of add those so that they're not lost, in any suggestion to look at the intersection itself.
Mr. Moreland And then, the other question or comment has to do with simply adding a recommendation that is to–and maybe it's in there, some place and I'm just missing it–that motorcycles are considered in all active research regarding pavement markings.
Mr. Bloschock Yeah. That needs to get in there.
Ms. Bents We'll put motorcycles–with regard to motorcycles–in #3, and #4.
Mr. Moreland The distinction for me is whether in doing research, they think that they're doing motorcycle-specific research; therefore, they're considering motorcycles; or doing as it simply says, in all research that has to do with road markings that they have to also consider motorcycles.
Ms. Bents OK.
Ms. Tan Can I make a suggestion to change intersections to junctions? Because that covers a wider range of intersection types? (Many say, "Good. That's good.")
Ms. Bents OK. Are we happy with the way I'll sort that out? And the only action item I think we came up with, so far, is that Bob has to write the recommendation regarding pavement markings? (Mr. McClune, "Sure.") Any other volunteers for actions items from this morning? OK! Thank you, for allowing me to review. We want to make sure that we get this right. And now, we'll hear from Mark.
Mr. Bloschock (Presentation: Pavement Traction) OK. Well what I'd like to do, Fran if it's OK with you, is present my presentation from over here. And you're going to change slides for me?
Ms. Bents That's quite all right. I will change slides.
Mr. Moreland I'm sorry. I hate to be a pain in the rear on this, but you still haven't added the point that says motorcycles are to be considered in all research...
Ms. Bents Right. Shelley, could we get in that one? "Motorcycles will be considered in all research regarding pavement markings..."
Mr. Oliver As a little bit of a help, if you look on this graph here (in the sample brochure), if you look to the right under roadside safety? The 2nd bullet, there's a couple of sentences there that you might want to glean from that; that are very close, concerning motorcycle safety... (Cites from the brochure.)
Mr. Bloschock Those are pretty good words. Who wrote that?
Mr. Oliver I could tell you, but I'd have to... (Laughter)
Ms. Bents OK. Mark, we're ready for your presentation.

Mr. Bloschock

Yes, go ahead and bring it up. What I was talking about before was I asked for an opportunity to talk to district engineers, and so there's a bunch of boys and girls dressed very nicely in a room, and they meet frequently. I've made a number of presentations there, so when I ask, I'm usually invited, although it took a couple of months to get me there. I was there in June. And I just wanted to do my own little experiment with raising the awareness of folks who weren't motorcyclists, and just see how this would work, and I was very pleased with it. So I'm going to take a little bit more time, but what I told the district engineers was that I was going to accelerate hard through the presentation, speed through this presentation, and stop for breath when I'm at the end for questions. I was supposed to compress that into 5 minutes. It didn't work. So what I'm going to do first is review–get a little bit of review, I'm not giving all the slides that I gave there; but this actually moves pretty fast. I'm going to do a little bit of a review. So what I ask in the next slide is where did the data that I'm talking about come from? And I quickly went through and gave them a place to look–a URL to look–for what we call the Fatality Analysis Reporting System; FARS is what we call it. And the other place that I look for some of the data that I'm using is the NAMS. But if I have to bumper-sticker the data for them, there are 5.8 million registered motorcycles, which represent only about 2.37% of the 243 million passenger vehicles that we have. And then we know the fatality numbers for 2005 from the FARS data. And that's the highest level since 1990. In historical reference, that's more than twice the number killed in 1997. The data that I was able to get show that motorcycles represent 0.3% of vehicle miles traveled in the U.S., but they're over-represented at 10.5% of all crash fatalities. Simply put, I said motorcyclists are 34 times more likely to die in a crash than the occupant of a passenger vehicle. Crashes of motorcycles are not new; this is from 1957. That's not blood on the pavement (referring to the current slide), that is oil. You'll notice it's also a police motorcyclist. Not only was this guy not paying attention; he was really not paying attention to the right vehicle. It makes you wonder what the accident report looked like for this particular one. Should we be paranoid? I don't know. (describes more slides) You know what they say, "It's not paranoia, if they're really out to get you!" And maybe they are. So reviewing Ms. Peter's stuff, we're looking at the 3 Es, and then the 4th one that she adds, that we all know, and when we're talking about that we know that engineering is there–engineering not of motorcycles, but rather how does highway infrastructure and design affect motorcycle safety. I wish we could get into education like this (referring to the current slide). You can see here that... not too much in the way of protective gear and their error is not apparent. The arrow points to the small child that's nestled in there. So obviously, there's a need for education. So I told them that what we were supposed to look for were some issues of barrier design, highway design, construction and maintenance practices, ITS counter-measures, which we're going to talk about in just a few minutes I guess, and then also warning signs you need for motorcyclist.

But what I'd like to do as a review–and Ed, you haven't seen these. This is what we were talking about on some of the crash testing that was done in Germany. Dick Powers provided me with this; the reason why we think it's Germany is because of all the text that I see associated with this in German for camera angles. We get into this argument about crash-testing, and how representative is crash-testing of real life. Crash-testing is the 95th percentile or whatever it's supposed to be covering. This happened just recently in Austin, less than a mile from my house at the interchange of Rt. 1 and U.S. 183, and exactly this happened. It was just kind of interesting–and I don't mean to be gross, but–the police found a motorcycle up there, and they must have looked around, there was nobody around. He must have walked away. And a vagabond found the body about 4 days later, under the bridge, which was a 50-foot fall. This guy was simply missing–wasn't where they were looking for him. This exact same thing happened, almost, with this weird crash-testing; this is precisely what happened a mile from my house. (Describes more slides.)

One of the issues that interests everybody is cable barrier. TX is a good place to look at some cable barrier, because we have 600-700 miles of that, either under construction or in place right now. This one's in Poland. And most folks were shocked to find out that motorcyclist were concerned about–and I'm going to quote one of you, from the last meeting–"the ability of soft tissue to pass through cables." (Laughter) We're going to get frozen out on that, a little bit, and the reason is–I pulled this report–that 600-700 miles of cable barrier that we have underway. We have 73 projects for cable barrier underway; 17 under construction. What we were looking for was cross-over data–we only use this for median barriers–for fatalities and crashes. So we had 47 cross-median fatal crashes the year before the cable-barrier that resulted in 52 cross-median fatalities. And the year after–a big scientific example, but–we had one wreck and one fatality that got through that cable-barrier. So, what you're talking about is to go from 52 deaths to 1–and that 1 death was a flipper that the cable-barrier wasn't going to stop anyway. So, what that says, with these types of numbers, it's going to be hard to have anybody pulling up cable-barrier. We've seen that in 1 year. So, cable-barrier is probably here to stay. We're going to have to figure out what we do with it. I like to concentrate on issues that we can affect and we can change, and I think the cable-barrier is one we're not going to be able to do very much on.

So let me get in to a couple of them. I was trying to identify, for district engineers, some of the places we're looking at. Pavement markings was one, next were milled and grooved surfaces, rumble strips, bridge and pavement joints, open bridge deck surfaces, shoulder edge drop-offs, and steel plates. I'm going to talk about these, just real briefly. Well obviously, we've beat pavement markings real hard, but they didn't realize the slickness of pavement markings. Milled and grooved surfaces–that's what, in the business, we call milled surfaces–we all know that, how the motorcycles can follow in those grooves a little bit. Rumble strips, we had talked a little bit about the edge rumble strips and how they can de-stabilize a motorcycle. Bridge and pavement joints, open bridge deck surfaces; when we get on to our bridges we get what we call that thump, at the end of the bridge on bridge expansion joints.

I ride a Sportster; it does have suspension. But it's a pretty rough ride on some motorcycles–especially for a passenger. But the open deck bridge surfaces–what we call grates–in FL, I have a good friend whose Harley bit the dust on one of those. It was just a little bit wet on that grate, and I mean he said it was like ice! When he got on to that, he was down.

Shoulder drop-offs, we'll talk about that in a second. Steel plates, I'm going to talk about that extensively. Another area of discussion that I brought out was in the design green book: the merge lane length transitions, I got into that a little bit; how we're changing that–I talked to the district engineers a little bit about that. Drainage issues, I'll cover that a little bit in my signage area. But where we drain and cross the roadway, sand and silt on roadway, while that may not affect cars that much, for motorcycles it can be really bad. Skid-resistance at toll plazas, we talked about, and pavement markings that I was bringing forward.

And so it really breaks down from a state DOT perspective, to issues of surface friction, ride quality, and the need for motorcycle-specific signs. So, that's what really got the district engineers interested. Now, they realize that ride quality is more important to motorcyclists and it got them very interested in that. Anything that has to do with surface friction. This one's kind of a gross photo. This bike is just about to go down. But what you'll notice though is that he is attempting to steer to get out of it, right on top of pavement striping–right on a center stripe. Now there's an argument that, motorcyclist that I've shown this photo to say, this guy was going down anyway. And yes you're right. They don't have protective gear. I don't know why that girl was wearing sandals. But, there you are. However, that corrective action that the guy's trying to take, once he realized that there was a problem, was right on a pavement stripe. It's the only photo I know of that says, "maybe pavement stripes are slick."

(Next slide) Shoulder drop-off. What we're trying to say is that as we in TX and other states continue to overlay and overlay more–and we do that for all the right reasons: ride quality, preserving the pavement structure, not allowing you to get wet, everything that we do that for–we end up with an edge; rather than just dropping off. For motorcycles, this is still probably not good. Once you commit to getting off that pavement and off that edge, you aren't getting back on. It allows cars to get back on, and that's very important. FHWA has, along with this brochure, a great video with a shot of a car going off-edge and trying to get back on. So with motorcycles, that's probably not something we're going to really be able to do much in.

Let me talk about steel plates. That's my buddy Lloyd, at the far edge, in downtown Austin. Utility plates are an issue for... as I brought up earlier; Austin is a very bicycle-friendly community. And we all come from bicycle-friendly communities, but this one has a bicycle-friendly Mayor–a beloved Mayor, and it's interesting that somebody could still be beloved after being Mayor. But he slipped on what he believed to be a paint marking and he's pretty incapacitated from that particular crash and does remember it very well. So the city has really moved up its bicycle-friendly things, which happen to benefit motorcycles. So you can see that they've taken their steel plates and ramped them to the left, and ramped them to the right, so that they work for bicycles and motorcycles.

They've got expanded metal mesh down; tacked it down. It seems to stay down most of the time, unless somebody does a really hard burn-out on it, and they can take that up. They have the ability to pick up the places, also. You can see how they just cut it out there so they can still pick the plate up and get it out of the way. Dr. Bill Hadley with the City of Austin provided me with their details and specifications. And I'm willing to make those available to anybody. In general, those specifications are kind of global. They don't say, "Thou shalt do this," they say, you must provide some skid-resistance on these plates, and then there are a number of ways that the contractors are allowed to do it. The contractors in Austin appear to be using mostly this expanded metal mesh.

There's another one that I investigated called Slip Knot. At SlipKnot.com, you can see that they can put this coating on almost anything; you can see here on a road utility plate. Just a proprietary way to put some resin or grit-based thing onto these plates, so that they can work. Another one we talked about was toll plazas. As we talked about toll plazas, I thought about my work in Taskforce 13 and how they tried to do a number of things. But Tyre Grip is a good product–and I don't own any stock in it. Tyre Grip is used in a number of places to be able to mostly impart color delineation. That's what they're doing, and they're doing it with a grit that has that color. So you'll see in the middle, red for maybe a bus lane, blue for the toll way. And you'll see they've put this resin and grit down on the toll plaza, and it's used on curves, as well. They know that it increases skid-resistance. (Someone says, "I hadn't even thought about that.") We had talked at our last meeting about getting to a toll booth and putting your boot down, and you're on top of AC water or oil, etc., etc., and this is a way, with a product out there right now, folks could use to prevent that. So, it's not an emerging technology; it's one that definitely exists. I don't know if anybody's thought it before, but it's a great a way to increase skid-resistance, as we talk about pavement markings.

OK, I want to talk a little bit about some of the motorcycle-specific signs. I like to have a little fun with these... (Describes slides.) "Slow Men Working," (and others...) (Laughter). I was in Louisville, KY, in December... and you can see there's a lot happening there. There are many signs and billboards and stuff, I guess, you're supposed to look at a changing information sign and a lot information being imparted really quickly. I pulled over to get this, "Uneven Lanes. Attention Motorcyclist." I show this to folks to say that there is a need for a number of things; to show direction as motorcycle-specific, and some way that motorcyclist can be attracted to that information. Because there was so much happening there. What was actually going on was the concrete was faulting; not in the traditional way that you think of concrete faulting–laterally, across the road–but longitudinally. And they had up to 2 1/2 inches of faulting. And that is what that sign meant, when it said Uneven Lanes. They had no plans to change it, so they put up this sign. The problem is, it's not on the median; so if you're in the slow lane, maybe you see it. But if you're in any of the other 2 lanes, you're not going to see that sign. You all probably know this, but for those who aren't motorcyclists, if you have a fault longitudinally and you go from the high side to the low side you'll be surprised. But if you're going from the low side to the high side it's going to be worse than a surprise. This is something that is happening. They were trying to address it here and I'm not really sure that they were doing that good of a job. So I'm going to talk a little bit about what my colleague, Don Vaughn, and I talked about when I was at AL DOT's design conference in February.

Mr. Salontai Mark with that last sign, it's not really a safety issue; it's more of a liability issue. (Mr. McClune, "Well I think they looked at it as safety, also.") ...something where they can say, "Well, we put a sign up..."

Mr. Bloschock

Well, yeah... They were looking at it as partially that... The issue was they were really wanting to inform motorcyclists. But as we talked about, a lack of funding... "What are you guys going to do about this pavement? What, are you going to overlay it?" And they say, they have no funding to do anything. I usually really reject the use of signs on median barriers. That's part of my expertise is crash testing median barriers. How do you put signs on median barriers? That's really unsafe. Someone rolls up on the median barrier, hits that sign, clips it off. Now it's tumbling through the air. We're going to involve, shall we say, innocent people with that sign coming through the windshield, and all that sort of stuff. Here, though, they probably need one. Because up ahead, I wish I had stopped to take a picture of the fault in the concrete, but we could darn-sure see it, even at 50 or 60 MPH. So they realize that they have a problem; this is what they were doing about it. You're right, it's a very limited attempt at anything–and I don't mean to get on KY DOT, that's not the issue. But I'm trying to show somebody who's trying to do something and they weren't quite going far enough–in my opinion.

Don Vaughn sent this one to me. You can see it's a work zone temporary sign; it's orange with a little flag on it. But he's tried to incorporate a motorcyclist logo. I'm not sure if that's the right logo, or the motorcyclist should be seen from the side. I'm not sure what the logo should be. But let me read something that Don has provided us. He's "...developed some motorcycle-focused placards that will be considered by the Regulatory and Warning Sign subcommittee for inclusion in the MUTCD at their June meeting." That is excellent! Sometimes things move fast. Sometimes they take 10 years, but sometimes they move fast. Don believes that a letter of endorsement from the MAC would help to emphasize the importance of such signage. He has offered to draft the letter if the Council supports the concept (Someone says, "so we got a volunteer!") (Laughter) Yes. He feels fairly strongly about it, based on what he's doing over there in Alabama. (Mr. Salontai, "for once, Bob doesn't have to draft it...") (Laughter). So when I met with our MUTCD experts at TXDOT about this, they were absolutely adamant that motorcycle-specific signs were not something that they were going to do; that motorcycles are motorized vehicles and we're not going to give them special consideration, like bicycles and pedestrians might get. So that's why I'm saying that maybe we can do things where motorcycles can tag-along with bicycles and pedestrians, because they get lots of politics.

Mr. McClune I will be at that meeting in June. And I'd love to hand-deliver that letter. It happens to be Lake Tahoe, so why don't you go? (Laughter)
Ms. Bents Well, I believe Don's going to be there, too... and I offered to help. (Laughter)
Mr. Killion Can I ask a question, as to why they were resistant to a motorcycle-specific sign?
Mr. Bloschock Engineers are just resistant to change. I think that's what it is...
Mr. Killion It has nothing to do with the politics or anything like that...?
Mr. Bloschock No, it's resistance to change. When it comes to the MUTCD, one of the first precepts that I think I understand is that "More signs are bad." I've testified in court on signs before, and they all say, "Well, why didn't you put a sign that said, 'the bridge rail up ahead is not a crash-tested bridge rail'?" I've actually been asked that question by a plaintiff's attorney. And you go ahead and explain about the MUTCD and their philosophy that too many signs are bad and the drivers are going to tend to ignore them. So with that philosophy as the basis of the MUTCD–minimizing the amount of signs, the amount of colors, etc.–you can see why. Nonetheless, with 4600 deaths nationally, it's equal to the highway-related number of deaths that we see of pedestrians, and we should be getting the same sort of credence for that. It's going to take advisory groups like this and a little bit of awareness issues for folks to go, "Yeah, I think we need motorcycle-specific signs?"
Mr. Salontai Furthering that thought, a placard that has a symbol may not have that equal distraction as a worded if it's done in tandem with the other sign.
Mr. Bloschock Well the intention is for motorcyclists and you get a bunch of car drivers maybe who can't shed that information so they're over there looking at it; but, it if we get a logo... I don't know if this one's as recognizable to me as a sideways one would be. That's what the MUTCD will do is start looking for folks like this group to start saying what should that logo look like. Let's say that, if in 5 or 10 years, that logo will be commonplace, if we're still riding we'll be catching that out of the corner of our eyes, and our brains will say, "whoops, motorcyclist information; we'll look." That's why I think this is important.
Ms. Bents And just to add to that, Don thinks it's not going to get a lot of traction, so to speak, unless there's some endorsements. He thinks that this will not be a top priority item, and that's why he's really encouraging the committee to consider writing a letter of endorsement to kind of raise the bar.
Mr. Bloschock Absolutely. And the 2nd thing that he recommended; I'm just going to read it. He suggests that "a resolution from the MAC be sent to AASHTO recommending motorcycle awareness be an essential element in the design, construction, and maintenance of roadways. Such a resolution formalizes the concern of the MAC, and provides a product for consideration by AASHTO." Now from a guy who knows AASHTO like he does, he's absolutely right. (Mr. Salontai and someone else say, "That's perfect!") Really what we've already talked about...
Mr. Salontai ...We talked about that earlier and I think that's what you were eluding to, but you were talking about markings. I think it ought to be, in general–design, construction, and maintenance. The charter of this Council...

Mr. Bloschock

I'm going to talk about that more, and mention it again in the rest of my presentation. (Mr. Salontai, "OK") (Resumes describing slides on signage.) And this one there's nothing for you to read. I pulled it off of our Website and I want to tell an interesting story. Sometimes you're really proud to be working for a state DOT, and this week was this way. So we're fixin' to come up here and meet with y'all, and I'm really happy about it. And I go through the notes from our last meeting, in October, and it was like, "Oh! Mark promised to do this!" What I was going to do was get with our Web people and see if we could come with an icon that motorcyclists could run over to and click on, and get specific motorcycle information–here, we've lumped it in with bicycle information–and have a place that we could talk or complain about issues. Maybe it's cable barriers; maybe faulted pavement; maybe it's a bad pavement joint. So I said, "Awww. This really looks bad for me." I wouldn't tell this story unless it had a good outcome; I would have said I just never got around to it. So I called the right folks–like I say, I've been there 28 years–and they liked the idea. And 6 hours later, we had met on the phone with the division head of Traffic and Operations, Transportation Planning, and the head of our Office of General Counsel. And everybody loved this idea.

So Friday when I get back, the first thing I'm supposed to do is "pick wallpaper and curtains." I'm supposed to pick what the logo is supposed to look like and what color it is. It is going on the Traffic Ops Website. I want it to go on the main page. Now they jealously guard the main page; I might have to go to the Executive Director on that. However, help from this group would also be welcome, with regard to that sort of stuff on our Website. Because I know our Executive Director and he's definitely interested in safety. There has been nobody that I've talked to this week that thought this was a bad idea. All the division heads wanted to slow things down–that's the way I always think of division heads–but it wasn't that way this time. This is going forward. It is motorcycle safety and they jumped on that idea, immediately. They carried it a little bit further and said, when an issue comes in from a specific district, we will immediately send that to the maintenance folks in that district, so it can be taken care of, then of course at that point, Headquarters could ask, "well, what did you do to respond to that?"

There were concerns from the lawyers, that you're creating a written record of problems. Then if we don't respond to it quickly–and I've testified in court before–there could be an issue. But that wasn't an issue with our people, because it was about safety. So there will be something in the near future to click on for motorcyclists' complaints in TX. Hopefully, every state will follow that lead. I notice a lot of times that states will follow the lead of other states. And if so, it warms your heart when you see that happening. So again, I'm breaking our vulnerable into 3 classes: pedestrians, bicyclists, and motorcyclists. They look at motorcycles differently because they are powered vehicles; but no, I don't think so. Out of 43,000 total fatalities, we had 4,800 pedestrian deaths in 2005, 800 bicyclists, and about 4,600 motorcyclists. Motorcyclists are working their way up to pedestrians and what I tried to say, when I got up in front of the district engineers, there is an AASHTO specification guide on bicycles. The current one is from 1999, but we would not consider designing a lot facilities with out this spec, I asked them–talking about rail height, width, all these sort of issues important to bicyclists. Nor would we consider an intersection without the Guide for the Planning, Design and Operation of Pedestrian Facilities. But they send us numbers and they (district engineers) asked, "Why don't we have a motorcycle one?" I said, I have no idea what's going to happen in the next 5 to 10 to 20 years–because these things were a long time in the making. But do you think we're going to have a motorcycle-specific design criteria that's come from AASHTO in the next 10 or 20 years? I think we will. So I always say, we baby-boomers are buying motorcycles in record numbers. I think Harley sold 300K last year, or something like that, which is incredible. We're also crashing in record numbers. So the issue to me is we are not going to see a decrease in the number of motorcycles. Also because gas prices are going up, there will probably be some increase. Hopefully these deaths go down, but the issues that contributed to these deaths are not going to go away. Regardless of the safety statistics that support the point that I was making. There are many of us who are going to ride motorcycles just for the pure joy of it. (Describes more slides.)

Anyway, I think I was successful in making that presentation; I'm looking forward to making other presentations like this, where I mix things up. There is a motorcycle bar that some folks from work go to–a biker bar–and they want me to come and make the presentation. Which I'm totaling willing to do. Anywhere, anytime, so folks understand what's going on; what their obligations are to communicate to us, and what we think our obligations are to motorcyclists, and where we think we're going to be going. Question.

Mr. McClune I actually love the idea of signage. Is there a thought process that thinks that just all you need is the graphic of the motorcycle–that says something up here is not exactly right–or do we really have to get into the explanation of the problems that may be ahead? It's almost as if there could be a universal motorcycle warning sign.
Mr. Bloschock Somebody who knows more about signs than I do is going to have to look at what's been done internationally; what's done nationally. We've seen a couple that have words signs and logo signs. That will take years of meeting with people, using flashcards and everything else they do, until somebody recognizes and approves that. I'm going to get into that Friday a little bit because I'll be meeting with our MUTCD folks and figure out what logo we should be using to put up on our Website, and they're going to have to agree to a symbol that is universally accepted.
Mr. Oliver Just to let you know, unfortunately we couldn't get a member of our MUTCD team here today, but she left some information (hard-copy) for us. In 1987, there was a Federal Registry notice put in on motorcycle logos. Likewise in 1997, they put another Federal Registry notice in that had 7 different potential things that could be used. They said that result was, when people looked at them, they couldn't really tell what they meant. So that's why it was put on the back-burner. But when we talked to Hari Kalla, he did mention us that AL was experimenting with some other ways of making it a little bit easier for the public to see. (Mr. Bloschock, "I was not aware of this. Could I have a copy of one?") Sure. In fact, if anybody would like a couple of these? We can do that.
Ms. Bents Jeff.
Mr. Hennie This is this month's issue of Track and Technology, where they're specifically talking about, mainly in Europe, the difference of signs, asking is there some sort of international code we can refer to of one sign that speaks to a lot of different things. It doesn't address it, it just sort of acknowledges that there is a problem out there with signage, in trying to make things uniform, from country to country, state to state. So, this is something that is being addressed.
Mr. McClune The reason I think a universal sign or multiple universal signs might be more effective is that it would be quicker. I can see the AASHTO committee saying, right now, "What should the wording be?" They will argue for years over what the wording should be for a particular sign versus a picture of a motorcycle. A universal code that somebody who is trained to ride a motorcycle recognizes; that there's a hazard or a warning ahead.
Mr. Bloschock Well if the MUTCD folks can agree on a symbol that they like, they can bring that to the licensing folks, so that when the new motorcyclist goes to get a license and gets tested, they're going to have to be able to recognize this sign. You're right, it is going to take some time for folks to agree; not just on the wording, but the sign, the color, and that sort of stuff. And as Don says, starting with the letter from the MAC, that says this is one of the places we would like to go, carries a lot of weight. (Others agree.)
Mr. Zimmer Well we already have signage that says, "Uneven Pavement" or "Grooved Pavement" or whatever. Having a motorcycle-specific sign attached to that alerts motorcyclists. It even more heightens the sign that's already there. So we wouldn't have to change the wording; we just have to change the social acceptance and understanding of what that little motorcycle emblem means in the motorcycling community.
Mr. Bloschock That logo does 2 things. It helps alert motorcyclists, which I think is more preventative. But I think, depending on the age of the driver, that most drivers can shed that information. In other words, when somebody in a car sees that thing go by, they might just shed it because it's a motorcycle symbol. So they're going to have to do something to get both folks to watch out. There's information for cars, too. For instance, utility plates; that's pretty-much motorcycle-specific. But we've got to make sure though that folks aren't shedding the information when it's something that they need to know also. So that's going to be talked about for at least 2 years over at MUTCD. Remember these panels only meet, like we do, about every 6 months. So when you say things move slowly, you have to remember this. (Others agree.)
Mr. Zimmer One of the things that I wanted to mention is about barriers. Up until the last meeting, before I saw that video, I thought, "cable barriers, a big taboo," "they're terrible." And then I saw the video. After that when people bring it up to me–and I've had several people ask me about that–I said, "Any barrier you put up is going to be bad. But looking at that video it seems to me that cable barriers aren't as bad as they first seemed to look like." (Mr. Bloschock, "Remember why? And I forgot to cover this today.") Because of the spacing between the poles...
Mr. Bloschock The posts can be much, much farther apart. Depending on the system, they can be maybe 10 or even 16 feet–I've even had them 16 feet 3 inches. While it's a poor chance when you have to get under that cable barrier when you're sliding, it's better than anything else...
Mr. Zimmer It's better than every 6 feet 3 inches. I explain that to folks, whenever they talk to me about it. They say that cable barriers are terrible! And I say, yes they are. But anything is terrible and this is the lesser of evils, if you will. You don't want to hit any of them, but if you've got to hit one of them, this is probably going to be your best chance. So when I put it in those terms and let them know that I've actually seen a video, with a cadaver and a motorcycle, and it transgresses once you hit that, they start thinking about it. So it's a way for us to spin this information out to them...
Mr. Bloschock In January, I was forwarded an email from just an individual motorcyclist–he was not representing a group–on the exact same issue. It was an FOIA request, so I prepared that and sent it back to him, talking about exactly that. And his response was the same. Cable barrier is not a good thing to run in to, but you've got the best chance of riding away unscathed.
Ms. Bents Ed.
Mr. Moreland Yeah. A question about the list items: roadside barriers, roadside hazards, that sort of thing. I didn't see in there anything about raised areas, between the regular and a merge lane–where you come off of the roadway, and for what ever reason, an engineer decided to put, 4 inches of pavement that sort of tapers into the merge. They didn't mark it with paint or anything. And there's a place, out in Tyson's (Corner, Vienna, Virginia) like that.
Mr. Bloschock They should have marked that with paint. Get a picture of that one, and we'll show them how not to do that. Those are called raised medians, and they're for control of access. They're there to try to control those left-hand turns; they're trying to make them happen all in one place. Some places you'll see them in merge areas or an exit ramp, where they raise up a little bit. Those should be somehow delineated. If motorcycles get into that, they're going to go down.
Ms. Bents That did come up in the last meeting and we did talk about the need to make sure that those were painted.

Mr. Bloschock

I'm sorry, just a real quicky. What we did–I got with our pavement expert for exactly what you're talking about, Ed–we developed a hand cast on paint just for those reasons. We're going to deploy some of those as an experiment. We did them in a parking lot and they seemed to have held up well. As you pull in our parking lot at night, you see those strips, and it's incredible how much light reflects back. You're not just talking about yellow or white paint. You're talking about something that will actually report back some retro-reflectivity. And then–(to Mr. McClune) Hold on to your thought.

There's one last thing that I wanted to say. I forgot (Laughter) and that is–it sounds goofy but you hope you save people by the dozens or hundreds, and then maybe you save them 1 at a time. What we do over at TXDOT can't be any different than any other DOT. We throw away acres of retro-reflective material. By the rules it has to be thrown away and it just can't be sold. So it goes into the dumpster. Except when we Mark and Lloyd it. We get huge sheets of this retro-reflective material, cut something out of the middle randomly somewhere, that's tested in a 75-foot flat black room for how much retro-reflectivity comes back. And then it's rolled up and put in the trash. Well I've done this for years now, and Lloyd's going to be taking it over for me when I retire in the next couple of months. But, we get these emails that say, "OK, we're ready." And what are they ready for? Well there are 3 grades of that material. Engineer's grading, there's license plate grade, high-intensity, which has little diamonds on it. And then there's a diamond grade that has that prismatic stuff. And they throw back increasing levels of light. Well, we take that stuff and we cut it up in roughly square foot by square foot. Then we throw it into a box or a bag and we give it to them for free to any motorcycle shop who will take it, and any bicycle shop who will take it. And, guess what? They do. If they sell it, they need to get it off the rack because they sell little pieces of it like this for about 3 bucks, and we give it to them for free. The only rule is they can't sell it. As soon as I find out they're selling it, they can't get it anymore. It has to be free. We always have takers for that. None of it goes in the trash anymore, amazingly. And it takes some volunteer effort. That's on a small level that I've gotten back pictures from people who have taken some from the motorcycle place and they send me back an email. OK, some people get a little gaudy with it, but that's all right, right? On the back of their motorcycle, you know they will put some of that stuff in the colors that they like. And even in the day light, the sun will hit it and it will come back. It's just incredible how much conspicuity goes up. And then the Harley dealership that I deal with, they bought 2 dies. One is a silhouette of TX or a punch-out of TX. It takes just a little piece of it and they put it on the back of their helmet. And then if you get pulled over in Travis county, which is where Austin is in TX, if you get pulled over by a Travis county motorcycle cop, you are going to get away with it. I'll tell you that right now. Because on the back of each one of their helmets is a white silhouette of a little pig; very distinctively a pig or whatever you want to call it. And all you have to do is you just have to say, "I know how you got that piece of retro-reflective material. I know where you got it from." So every one of the Travis county motorcycle cops have that on the back of their helmet. And we always say about highway safety, highway safety is kind of a grisly business because you hardly ever, in fact actually never, get to meet the people whose lives may have been saved by any of your actions. But I always say, but you know you shake hands with them everyday. So we really know when we're saving somebody, the issue is to get out there and try to, just one at a time.

So acres of that stuff are getting distributed for free. (Someone asks, "Why do you have to throw all that stuff away?") It's by the rules. Because otherwise somebody would go in the dumpster and take it. And you know that they would sell it for $3 apiece, or whatever. So nobody can take it home. Now I don't work for Materials and Testing division, so I can take it home. (Same one asks, "Well, why are they getting rid of it in the first place?") Well we get lots of samples. All kinds of samples come in and the samples have to be disposed of in the dumpster. (Someone says, "...because it can't go bad, I mean, why..." Well, because anything that comes in, if we were to use it for personal profit you know that's what they're trying to avoid. They don't even let them take the cardboard boxes home in Materials and Testing.

Ms. Bents Bob.
Mr. McClune As a followup to Ed's concern, we discussed that raised median issue at the last meeting. And then I got another email from a state engineer that had to do with the same issue. So I was wondering whether that should be added to our list of things that are important. And what he said was, "...consider using painted end-medians, islands, etc., in place of raised medians wherever appropriate." There are places where you have to have raised medians.
Mr. Bloschock We raise them for a number of reasons: to deny access, for left-hand turns, and as a pedestrian refuge. So folks won't hopefully mount that forage thing and run a pedestrian over. This gives an opportunity for a pedestrian to get out of the way or something like that. Painting the nosings is going to get more complicated, I think.
Mr. McClune I think what he's talking about is eliminating them and just have a painted area to delineate it.
Mr. Bloschock We already know folks will cross over that. That's why we spend the money to raise them.
Ms. Tan And then you'll have your issue of skid-resistance again, too.
Mr. Killion Well, I think the example that I gave the last time I was here was the 95th anniversary of Harley in Milwaukee. And there were several fatalities that year, because there's a stretch of the Interstate that has raised medians. And motorcycles were hitting them at night because they just couldn't see them. And multiple people were killed as a result of that, and I'm just wondering, that must be the situation in lots of different places.
Mr. Bloschock It's not unique to Milwaukee.
Ms. Bents Perhaps there's a way of re-phrasing that recommendation?
Mr. Moreland I understand the need in areas of heavy traffic, but the specific place that I'm talking about is the access ramp on to (Interstate) 495 from (state) route 7. There's no foot traffic at all there. It's probably 30 yards long. I know what they're trying to do. They're trying to keep people from merging early. They're just trying to funnel them down to the actual merge lane. The only problem with it is if, for whatever reason, you do choose to go in that direction and you don't know it's there... you can't see it very well at night, either.
Mr. Bloschock So the issue is not really that there's a raised island, because everybody's going to tell us that there's a reason to have it there, but not being able to be see it. (Mr. Moreland, "You can't see it.") So if it can be seen, then we've solved the problem.
Mr. Moreland It's embarrassing if you bump into it with a car; but it's much worse with a motorcycle.
Ms. Bents All right, so the recommendation from the Council would be that, given the choice, use paint, but if you have to raise the median make sure that it's painted or highlighted in some way... You engineers could say it better that I can...
Mr. McClune Yes, I think a traffic engineer needs to define that one. Because I'm not familiar with all the proper application of... (Someone says, "we need to increase the conspicuity of the raised median.")
Ms. Bents Perfect! Increase the conspicuities of raised medians.
Mr. Bloschock I think that says it direct and to the point. Now they will tell you that you can do it with delineation devices, which to me don't work as well. That's the little pole that holds the reflection up at the top and it can kind of break away; it's sort of metal. I have headed for years in that direction with the paint guys of getting some retro-reflectivity back on the nosing. Looking at that at night, that is so much better. Number 1, because it's different and it tends to attract your attention; number 2, it just has area. And it's defining the area that you want to be seen. You don't want it to be 28.5 inches or what ever a delineator is in a little area up there. That doesn't really tell me anything. But once I get that nosing painted and reflective like that, you can identify the hazard and where it is, and hopefully that works well. Now, how long does it last? I know it's not going to take the abrasion of tires; but with regard to road dirt, road grime, resistance to sun, and that sort of stuff, we leave that up to the vendors who could make those things happen.
Ms. Bents We can make some things happen. How about a break? ("Excellent") Ten minutes?
BREAK
CALL TO ORDER
Ms. Bents We're going to juggle the agenda just a little bit and our 2 remaining guest speakers for today will do their presentations–because they have to go–and then we will bounce back to the ITS topic. So first we'll have Umesh Shankar. I think most of you know him. He's a statistician with the NHTSA, and he has come armed with the latest safety statistics. Umesh, the floor is yours.
Presentation: Motorcycle Fatalities
Mr. Shankar

Let me ask you a question. How many of you have seen this presentation? I've seen most of the faces in here and you may have seen the presentation that I've done at NTSB and several other places. (Mr. Bloschock, "I have not seen it, and I'm looking forward to it.") As Mark mentioned, in his slides we saw the 2005 data; which is the latest data we have as of now. Motorcycle crash-related fatalities are reaching the level that we last saw in 1986. There was 100% increase in fatalities in recent years. From what I'm hearing from the industry about sales of new motorcycles; which I believe crossed 1.3 million in total sales, I think that just based on exposure itself we are going to see an increase in line with what we've seen in the last 8 years. We were at 5% in 1997 we had the lowest number of motorcycle rider fatalities. And now the latest is about 10.5%. So they're increasing rate comes out of proportion to all other fatalities. Except in 2002, we're seeing that the increases in all highway fatalities have been accounted for by increases in motorcycle rider fatalities. That's what's troubling. The all-highway fatalities have been increasing in small numbers, even with some of the declines we are seeing–passenger vehicle occupant fatalities and some fatalities in bicycles. Looking at 1996-2005, as you can see there is a decline in the passenger vehicle occupant fatalities. Of course there is quite a bit of increase in the overall fatalities. All occupants have also declined. Other occupants have a slight increase. But most of the increase that we're seeing here has come from the motorcycle riders. And to some level, that has nullified the effect of the decline in the passenger vehicle occupant fatalities that we've seen in the last 10 years.

In the individual breakdown of each year, you can see there is a motorcycle increase, with the corresponding declines among passenger vehicle occupants–even though we have seen quite a bit of increase in the registered vehicles and also the VMT (Vehicle Miles Traveled) among passenger vehicles. And a lot of it is coming from the light trucks, especially the SUVs and pick-ups. Going back to the exposure risk, I know there is discussion going on–David also mentioned about the symposium–with respect to the collection of exposure data for motorcycles. Even if you look at the registrations itself as another measure of crashes, even with the increases that we are seeing we still see a substantial increase in the rate per 100k motorcycles, it clearly shows that there is some increase that can be attributed to the increase in exposure. The 2005 data shows that the total registrations is 0.23 million. That's about a 16% increase since 1997; but if you look at the fatalities, it's 400%. So there is some imbalance we are seeing between the two, even after accounting for the exposure increase.

I know that there are a lot of questions, with respect to the VMT, which in my opinion, probably is a better measure of crash risk than is registration. And as most of you can probably relate to, every individual motorcycle is owned by a rider; that increases the registration numbers. Whereas the actual vehicle miles traveled probably gives a better exposure risk. We do have a lot questions on the VMT data, itself, on motorcycles. Which is a problem that in the future we will be able to get a better handle on. To a large extent, the increases are in the 40+ and 50+ age group. The industry council data also suggest that those are the riders who are buying the new motorcycles. So it's a question of where the exposure is going, too. Unfortunately, we don't have an idea of how many riders in that age group there are in the population to really look at the risks for those age groups. The other thing that we are seeing is a large increase in the larger motorcycles. Once again, looking at the industry council, I think those are the motorcycles that are being really bought, or sold. So once again, it's an exposure based one. We really don't have the data to really see how many number of these motorcycles are there to compare crashes among these groups. But in general, this is what the data is showing. Once again, these are the age groups (40+, 50+) that you can clearly see the largest increases. Even though we do see some increases from 30 to 39, and 20 to 29. The 20 to 29 so far has been the one with the highest number of fatalities. But 40 to 49 seems to be taking over. Once again, this is the age group that are buying the motorcycles and what we're hearing is the returning riders are in this age group and are the ones who are getting back into riding motorcycles.

The only measure that you can really look at, in terms of exposure, in order to see what's really going on with the older population. And I know that the older population is not a real indicator to motorcycle rider population, and like I said, we don't have the motorcycle population by these age groups. But if you look at the overall population by these age groups, there is clearly an increase even in fatality rate. Engine size is where we are seeing an increase among motorcycles, 1,000 and over. We are also seeing some fatalities contributed to the larger engine sizes (category). But from what I'm hearing from the motorcycle industry and the riders groups, that's another very popular group of motorcycles that riders want to buy and ride. And probably we are going to see an exposure-based increase in fatalities in this engine size (category), also. Just looking at this larger engine size motorcycles and then passing the data down to the age groups that we have seen, clearly the larger engine size motorcycles seem to be going along with the 40+ and especially the 50+ age groups. And that's where we're really seeing the increases in these larger motorcycle groups. The 40+ age group has accounted for most of the increases. On the next slide, clearly you can see that these 2 age groups and the larger motorcycles seem to be the population most at risk in these crashes. And I think the industry council data clearly suggests the same kind of phenomenon.

Mr. Moreland Why do you block 2 different age groups together? To get a number that says, "Everyone over 40 is the problem and they're the ones increasing the crashes,"? It's quite as statistically valid, to me it seems, as saying "No one under 16 is dying on highways riding motorcycles." If they're broken into 10-year age groups, why not focus on 40-49 or 50-59? It seems that you're really compounding the appearance of the problem by combining the 2 age groups. (Mr. Shankar, "On which one, are...?") If you take 40-49 and 50-59, and shoving the two together, it seems like, "It's a huge problem!" But it's those people in those TWO categories. It seems to me, you're comparing singular categories of 20-29 or 30-39 or under 20. It just seems like it's unnecessarily compounding or drawing attention to riders who are over 40–as being the problem with rider fatalities. Because you could say, "Everyone under 40, combined, is the problem," if you combine those 3 categories.
Mr. Shankar No, I mean, we are looking at 40-49 and 50-59 and then 60+. Obviously, the 20(-29) age group has the larger numbers. But if you look at this age group and the increases in there, you are looking at a 200 to 624 increase in deaths. And then if you look at the 20-29 (age group), you are looking at an increase of 211 to 366. So there is a disproportionate increase in these numbers. And that's what I'm trying to say. And when you go back to the previous slide, when I looked at the population-based rate, (receding through the slides to find the referenced slide)
Mr. Salontai The other thing is on that slide those 20 years is 1,150 of the 1,900. So over half the deaths are in that 20 year range, versus...

Mr. Shankar

Yes. If you look at this age group in here, it has gone from 1.07 to 2.05. Even assuming that the riding population is the same as the overall general population. And that's what I'm trying to say here is that even if you look at that, it's more than doubled. And if you look at the 50-59, it's over 3 times. I'm saying that this is the demographics that seem to be riding and coming on to the population today. Typically if you speak to a person of the general public, the perception is that motorcycle riding typically used to be the younger riders. But it doesn't seem to suggest that that is what is going on, in terms of what we are seeing in the crash data. Even the industry council data seems to say that. The new riders who are buying the motorcycles seem to fall in to this [older] age group category. So, there is some exposure-based risk that is going on in here. There is no question of that.

Unfortunately, I don't have the registration data by age group, because that could give us more information on that. Maybe we may find that this is the age group that has the highest crashes. I don't know that. Based on the data that we have right now, it seems to indicate that this is where we are seeing the increases, in terms of raw numbers. But if you really want to look at the crashes, I only have age group by population as the only indicator of crashes. But it seems to me that this is where it's going. I don't know if that answers the question or not. But what I tried to do is maintain the same age group differences in these 4 categories. And only in these two [40-49 and 50-59] I kind of clumped them; the rest of the categories have one group of data. I have consistently done every part of the data that you've seen in the same coordinated age groups that you are looking at. And, no. I'm not trying to say that those are the age groups that have the highest risk, or that that's where the problem is. All I am saying is look at the demographics itself; that's where you seem to be seeing the data, in terms of the people that are getting killed. That's why I'm trying to change the perception that a lot of the people that I've talked to seem to think; that is it the younger riders who seem to get involved in crashes. And that doesn't seem to be showing that in our data.

I think the industry council does do the age-grouping differently. But they seem to say at least that they are the median age of the new rider buying the motorcycles. Also they say that over three-quarters of the new motorcycles that are being sold are the 750+cc engine size. They don't break it down any further than that. Also the data that we are seeing here seems to follow that trend of who the riders are and what kind of motorcycles they buy. So there is definitely a shift in the demographics and kind of motorcycles that they in general like to ride, and that's where the industry's going. Because they definitely want to sell what the riders would like to buy.

Two-thirds of the riders in the 40+ age group own the larger motorcycles; clearly indicating an association of this age group to these larger motorcycles. The mean engine size clearly shows the increase in the age group. Starting back at the 30-39 age group at 750(cc), going up to the 60+ age group and to 1,000cc. So it clearly shows the size of the motorcycles that getting into these crashes, and the age of the rider. (Mr. Salontai, "They're manufacturing more of those motorcycles.") Yes, sure. I definitely agree on that. (Someone says, "Plus with gas going up to 4 bucks a gallon, we'll probably see an increase in the smaller cc sizes...") (Mr. Salontai, "Four? It's already up to 5. You're not from CA, are you."?) Yes, you're right; the larger motorcycles are being sold so the exposure's going to go up...

Mr. Salontai The other thing we were talking about is affordability. The younger riders can't afford to buy the 1450cc motorcycles.
Mr. McClune Are you going to say something good about us old guys? (Laughter) Are we going too fast?
Mr. Shankar The age group statistics tend to indicate that it's [speed] more of a problem among the younger riders. In the older age group it is 1 in 5. There is some indication that there are some issues with speeding. And I know that riding a motorcycle at 25MPH; then the whole fun of riding a motorcycle is gone. But it looks like there is some issue that needs to be looked at.
Mr. Moreland Is that any speeding? (Mr. Shankar, "Yes.") Anything in excess of the speed limit.
Mr. Shankar Maybe not the speed limit. Where speeding has been cited in the accident report as a factor in the crash.
Ms. Bents This is for fatalities.
Mr. Moreland Speeding factor. Is that not speeding in excess of the speed limit, but where speeding is reported as a factor? (Mr. Shankar, "Yes, reported as factor, in the crash report.") I don't understand. I'm not following...
Mr. Shankar When the crash investigator goes to the site for any investigation, if they say that based on the observation of some witnesses they have seen that the rider was speeding at the time of the crash, then they would put that speeding was a factor that they've heard or that the investigation seems to indicate. (Somebody says, "It might not have been the cause of the crash, but they would cite...") Yes. They really can not say what the cause of the crash was. There can be many factors in the crash.
Mr. Moreland Based on the opinion of a bystander that they were speeding...
Mr. Shankar Not on the bystander, per se. It is based on the crash investigator at the site. It can be the police, the witnesses, or it can be the skid marks; or whatever else is there for them to look at.
Mr. Moreland It's really the appearance of the word "speeding" in a fatality report.
Mr. Halladay There are several factors involved, actually. One could be speeding; another is going too fast for conditions, for example. I really can't rattle them all off. In all fairness in the data that we've seen overall, speed is cited. And there are those specific, parsed data elements that are part of that record. And it can be, "exceeding the speed limit by 10 or more miles over," or "speeding too fast for conditions." And it is taken from the police officer documenting that in the accident report.
Ms. Bents But, typically fatalities are investigated by a trained police officer. So it's not just your local guy who gives out parking tickets. A fatality tends to generate a fairly thorough police investigation.
Mr. Moreland It's probably a semantic issue for me. Speeding, to me, sounds like "in excess of a speed limit."
Ms. Bents Not necessarily, no. It could be too fast for conditions.
Mr. Moreland So, "Speed as a Factor." (Mr. Shankar, "Yes.") OK.
Mr. Shankar The industry compared the alcohol involvement among autos and light trucks and motorcycles, and what we're seeing is the motorcycles have the highest alcohol involvement. The interesting fact is a lot of, unfortunately, motorcycle riders tend to get involved in fatal crashes, obviously because of the riding and handling issues that are involved with motorcycles. More the 1/3 of the motorcycle operators had alcohol at the time of the crash; compared to about 25% in passenger cars and light trucks.
Mr. Zimmer In the comparisons of driver/operator, does that include the driver of the other vehicle?
Mr. Shankar Yes, when we are talking about comparisons of drivers. I know that, in terms of general terms, you don't say motorcycle driver, you tend to say motorcycle operator.
Mr. Zimmer I guess what I'm saying is, could the driver portion of that be the other vehicle?
Ms. Bents Oh, OK. The question then actually is, "Is this reflecting only crashes that involved motorcycles, or all crashes?"
Mr. Shankar These are all crashes. We looked at the drivers of passenger cars, the drivers of light trucks, and the operators of motorcycles, and their individual vehicle incidents.
Mr. Zimmer OK. So the motorcycle numbers are strictly just for motorcycles...?
Mr. Shankar Just for motorcycles. There could be an accident where the motorcycle operator did not have any alcohol and the driver of the passenger vehicle did have alcohol; or both of them had alcohol...
Mr. Zimmer And they could be included in this?
Ms. Bents They ARE included in this. But, it's not exclusively motorcycle-involved crashes; which would be, I think, what you're trying to get at.
Ms. Tan No, he's saying, "What if a drunk driver ran into a sober motorcyclist?"
Mr. Shankar No, in that instance–an alcohol-related incident where the motorcycle operator didn't have any alcohol–then it is going to show up as the Passenger Car (category), and not here (under the Motorcycle category).
Mr. Zimmer Right, and not there. OK. I just wanted to make sure that we are not included in the drunk drivers because it happened to say in that report, "Alcohol Involved," or "Speed Involved"...

Mr. Shankar

No. No. These are not based on the crash; these are based on the individual driver or the operator. That's the difference in here. (Mr. Zimmer, "Right. I just wanted to make sure.") Sure. When you look at the alcohol involvement among motorcycle drivers in the different age groups, you can see it's higher in 40-49. It is different in passenger cars and light trucks; which is 30-39. Looking at the Engine Size (category) and then the alcohol level, once again you see the larger motorcycles seem to show the highest alcohol involvement–4 in 10. Licensing (slide). One interesting thing when I looked at the data I didn't seem to think was going to fall out, 1 in 4 of the motorcycle operators involved in a fatal crash didn't have a valid license. Now when we say a valid license, they didn't have that one to ride a motorcycle; they didn't have ANY license. And when you break it down by the age groups, it seems to be more prevalent among the younger age groups. There are some issues here with the other age groups also, but certainly if you look at the bigger factors it's in the younger age groups.

Looking at the Weekday and the Weekend (categories), because motorcycle riding is still, probably to a large extent, associated as vacational riding, weekends are where we see more than twice the number of fatalities. It clearly indicates that fatal crashes are a big part of the issue during the weekends, among the motorcycle riders.

Mr. Salontai Does it take into account the percentage of people actually on the motorcycles on the weekends vs. the weekdays?
Mr. Shankar I don't have the exposure data (i.e., no).
Mr. Salontai Yeah? Because there are a tremendous number of people... (Mr. Shankar, "Absolutely!") ...the volume is not of that magnitude on the weekdays...

Mr. Shankar

right, much higher. Absolutely. But what it indicates is probably to some level, maybe if you are doing a campaign or education or those kinds of things. This, at least, tends to show where you can really focus. And obviously, that's when you see the big volume of riders; during the weekends. When you look a the breakdown by age groups, the 40-49 age group seems to be the one which has the highest crashes, in terms of fatalities, during the weekends; compared to any other age group–just when you look at the weekend data. Looking at engine size during the weekends. Once again, the larger engine sizes (have the highest number of crash fatalities) during the week. Probably due to exposure and riding demographics.

Just to summarize what I have said, in the demographic that we are looking at, I know that I just generally mention 40 and older in here. Of course we have the 50-59. And probably in the next few years, the demographics are going to shift. You might see the 60+ shift, depending on how it moves. And then of course the larger motorcycles, when you look at the exposure, we may see the raising is in the risks. I'm not going to go into the VMT, but even the registration of motorcycles is one way of measuring the risks. We do see a disproportionate increase in the fatalities by looking at the registration data, itself. And then the larger increases in the 40+ age group, when you look at the population as another way of looking at the exposure, itself.

Mr. Moreland Again, I'm sorry to keep bringing this up. (Mr. Shankar, "Sure.") I think it's important to parse all of the details in the FARS data. Again it appears that there is a "40 and Older Age Group." There is no such thing as a 40 and Older Age Group! There is a 40 to 49, a 50 to 59, and older than 59. So it is more accurate to report it–especially for use in the public and the media, and everything else–as, "The following Age Groups." Otherwise, NHTSA should report it as, "39 and Younger Age Group." And bulk that as an age group and 40 and older as an age group. Otherwise, it's just not representational of the data.
Mr. Shankar Give me 1 second... (Pause, while returning to slide 9.) You could certainly make the changes in this summary. But if you look at slide #9, I have looked at each age group in a separate category, and I've also reported on the 30-39 and the under 30. We can certainly change it in the summary. I'm not suggesting that we should not change it there. But as far as possible, I think I've tried to stay within the same age group categories. But when I say summarizing, in terms of all the presentation I (just) did, when you look at the 10-year trend, what we are clearly seeing is a real large increase in that age group category. There is some increase in the other age groups; there's no question of that. But what we clearly see is a real large increase in these age groups, and that's what I'm trying to summarize in my last slide. We can certainly change that. That's definitely not something that we shouldn't do. We can certainly do that. But what I'm trying to say is that if you look at all the age group data together, and all the engine size categories, we are trying to at least cover the major chunk of the age groups...
Ms. Bents Umesh, thank you very much. (Mr. Shankar, "Thank you.")
Mr. Zimmer Umesh? One of the things that strikes me about the data is this increasing age. I have a tendency to look at this in terms of age increasing on a spectrum on a Bell curve. And that peak, that median as it moves along, this is the same group of people. Look around this room and the ages of experience. We started at 20 and 25, and now we're 40 and 50–and whatever–and it's the same group of people. And so that same wave is just moving down along, and it's the same group of people that we're looking at here. (Someone says, "So we just can't ride?") (Laughter) ...And that age cohort is just moving along. Now, there are new riders coming into that age cohort. But, that's what speaks to me about this...
Mr. Salontai We have to ride young, smaller bikes, and fast! (Laughter)
Ms. Bents Is that a recommendation or an action item? (Laughter)
Mr. Zimmer (To Mr. Shankar.) ...It's not really a question; it's just an observation.
Mr. Shankar I think that's definitely possible from what we've seen. But what I've also heard, from talking to riders, is that a lot of people who used to ride 20 years back started again and now they're coming back. (Mr. Halladay, "There is a returning-rider factor...) So it is a combination of both factors, I think. What it shows, to some level, here is that the demographic we are trying to get a handle on is what we have seen in the last 8 years. And obviously there is some level of this which can be attributed to the exposure–the increase of riders coming into the field and the number of motorcycles that are coming into the field. And then to some level, I think it shows that if you are going to really change this trend, I think you are going to have to probably look at and focus differently, between the age groups. And see differently how you used to see previously the whole aspect of the motorcycle riders. Because there are 2 different groups in here. There are the returning riders–the 40+ and 50+–and then there are the younger riders who are coming into play. And when you look at the speeding and the alcohol, there is a difference. Speeding is a factor among the younger riders; alcohol is a different age group. With licensing, there is a difference between the 2 demographics. So, I don't think you can try to look at every age group as 1 in here, when it comes to motorcycles. I think you have to look at them differently, in here. And that's what I'm trying to say is when we look at the crash rate itself, we can clearly see some distinctions. And you will have to probably work differently to the 2 groups. Whether you want to make it 30 and younger and 30+, or how you want to do it. But at least, the data seems to indicate that. And you're right. It's probably the same growing group of people, and we may start seeing in the next 5 years large increases in 60+ as they keep moving. Absolutely.
Mr. Moreland We just have to wait until that group of people gets off the roads completely. Then we'll see everything drop down. (Laughter) What I thought was really interesting was the slide that demonstrated the larger piece of the pie that motorcycles fatalities had of the overall fatalities numbers. And I was wondering if you all had taken a look at the advancement of technologies, with regard to car and small truck–the survivability now for those vehicles, (e.g.,) crumble zones and other advancements in technology–have allowed automobile drivers per number of crash exposure to now survive those crashes, which has maybe given the appearance that motorcycles are now taking a bigger chunk? Because there's still not a cage around a motorcycle. So the likelihood of fatality hasn't dropped in the same way perhaps that it has for cars or small trucks.
Mr. Shankar We do look at the passenger car and light truck occupant fatality rate based on the VMT. We have seen a decline in the rates in those categories. And certainly there has been a tremendous improvement, with respect to those vehicles. There's no question of that. In my personal opinion, trying to even make a comparison of the safety aspects of the passenger cars and light trucks to motorcycles, I don't think we should be doing that, because they are totally 2 different kinds of vehicle categories.
Mr. Moreland Well I agree with you. But I think that it's fair to point out to people that advancements in safety for passenger cars and light trucks, and the increasing survivability of the crash, where in similar crashes in the past, some might have been killed. Reducing the number of those fatalities has increased the appearance of our contribution to those fatalities figures, in some respects. Because the safer you make cars–when people aren't dying in cars–then our percentage of the total number that are being killed increases.
Ms. Tan But there is still twice as many of you being killed...
Mr. Moreland I'm not arguing that deaths in motorcyclists are declining... (Ms. Tan, "Yeah. People benefit from safer cars. I get it.") I'm just trying to get my head around that chart. I think it's fair to point out that advancements in passenger cars and light trucks - technology has an impact...
Mr. Shankar Certainly that point will be noted in there. Absolutely; no question of that. That definitely had a boost to some of the declines we have seen in the passenger cars and light trucks occupant fatalities.
Ms. Bents Ken, you have a comment?
Mr. Kiphart From what Ed started, there is another statistic we should look at–and I'm sure we don't have it right now–would be total crashes; not just fatal. To compare passenger cars and light trucks vs. motorcycles over last 10 years in ALL crashes. Because, as Ed has mentioned, the number of fatal car crashes may be going down; whereas the total number of crashes may not have changed that much. (Others agree.)
Ms. Bents OK, I've got to ask you to curtail the discussion. Thank you very much. Carol Tan is going to give us an update on the status of the Motorcycle Crash Causation Study.
Ms. Tan

I have a very unforgiving 5-year-old, who looks at me accusingly every time I come home late, so... (Laughter) I will give a brief update of the Motorcycle Crash Causation Study. For those of you who aren't familiar with it, I'll provide some background. It is written in the new SAFETEA-LU legislation that the DOT provides grants to Oklahoma Transportation Center to conduct an in-depth motorcycle crash causation study. We are to employ the OECD methodology–that was specifically stated–and the grant was for $1.2 million per year for 2 years. Since Oklahoma is a university transportation center, they are required to provide a 50% match; which means we provide $1.2 million a year and they provide $1.2 million a year. And that's the only way that the study can get moving is if they provide a match.

There are actually 2 efforts ongoing. NHTSA has a pilot study that is actually moving along right now, and we hope for results that will feed in to our main study. So, the objective of the pilot study is very similar to the objective of the main study in looking at motorcycle crash causation. And they were to investigate initially the feasibility of using the OECD methodology, but we pretty-much decided that we will use the OECD methodology for our study. These are the milestones for the pilot study (referring to presentation slide). And what you see in italics are kind of iffy dates. Before we can get the OMB [Office of Management and Budget] approval–because of the nature of data that are being collected; it's considered survey data and these types of data collection that involve surveys, where you come into contact with people, have to go through the OMB approval process. So we've decided to combine both studies as one OMB package. We've submitted an initial package, which was a 60-day Federal Register notice which posted, and there's another step called the 30-day notice, which we're working on right now. We don't know when that's going to be approved, so that's why all other things (in italics) are contingent. If everything can move along, by July we get the OMB approval, hopefully we'll have the final report in October 2008 from the Pilot Study. The results of that will give us forms that we can use for the FHWA study; training that we can also use to train the people who will collect data for the FHWA study, and of course the final report, which give us an initial idea what worked, what didn't work, in terms of data collection and hopefully some indication of where the direction of crashes is going, in terms of causation. The status of our study at FHWA: we do have a signed agreement, but it's pretty-much on hold. The start date is contingent on when Oklahoma can provide the matching funds. The period of performance will be basically 4 years, when it starts. The total funding is going to be roughly $5 million. We don't get to use all of that money because there's this thing called take-downs and Congress made this slight error in over-designating funds that didn't exist. So there isn't really $1.2 million that they gave us.

As I say, we will be using the OECD methodology and we are going to look at what's causing motorcycle crashes, and hopefully we can determine what will prevent these motorcycle crashes. There are a lot of questions that need to be answered, and hopefully we can answer some of them. But I know we can't answer all of them. We'll be looking at risk factors for the riders and drivers of those involved in crashes; very typical things that you can look at in a crash causation study. We'll also be looking at what's important to FHWA–roadway geometrics and traffic characteristics, which don't get a lot of coverage in these types of crashes. FHWA is very concerned about what we can do to the roadway to help improve things. NHTSA is typically more experienced in taking care of the vehicle and the driver/operator side of the crash picture.

Here are our milestones, for the larger study. We did have a project working group meeting back in June 2006. We'd like these annually, but since we're on hold right now we haven't had the funds with this one this year. When we actually do get started we will schedule a work product. The pilot data will probably be collected by 2008; we collect the data for the main study–the start of that–in April. As I said, we're working on a schedule, and as you'll notice the timetable to match the funds. Once we get those, we can keep moving forward. And if you have more questions, I probably can't answer them. I don't have much more to tell you.

Mr. Moreland A couple of questions. One, are there documents or questionnaires or forms being proposed for the crash causation study that the work group will have a chance to review?
Ms. Tan Yes, they'll have a chance to review it, but we haven't moved forward on them because we have to submit something to OMB for their approval first, and we're still working on those documents. So when OMB approves those and marks them up, which they will, we'll have to revise those. And then we can present those for review.
Mr. Moreland And then the other question is, the OECD is mandated for the main study? It's not, as far I know, mandated for the pilot study; but the pilot study is going to employ the OECD?
Ms. Tan Yes.
Mr. Hennie So at this point, pending OMB approval this summer, we won't see anything until 2012?
Ms. Tan No, you'll see something in 2008 from the Pilot study.
Mr. Hennie But the final study, the full package, 2012. And how much money has come in, in the matching funds, to date?
Ms. Tan So far, nothing. (Mr. Halladay, "Some of it–a lot of it has been committed.") A lot of it has been committed, but what we've gotten from Contracts, from Oklahoma has been nothing.
Mr. Kiphart] Everybody else probably knows this... Is the Pilot study funded to go forward? (Ms. Tan, "Yes, the Pilot study has been funded, for NHTSA..." I'm sorry, I missed that part. And so that does produce something as of 2008, in terms of pilot–small size.
Mr. Hennie How big is the Pilot study? As far as cases?
Ms. Tan 35
Ms. Bents It's really just to test everything out. (Someone asks, "...and the full study?")
Mr. Halladay Around 900. (To Ms. Tan) Is that right?
Ms. Tan We'd like to get 900. We don't know exactly if that's what we'll be able to get. We don't know how much the funding will carry us through. It's an estimate.
Mr. Moreland But to be statistically viable, it has to be a number of...?
Ms. Tan Well, that's questionable. If we follow OECD methodology, their base number is 300. So we're not just getting 300; we'd like to get as much as possible. We don't believe there is enough funding available to meet the 1200 that was done in the original Hurt study. Somewhere in between is what we can get and we are estimating between 600 to 900. But we can't say, exactly, "It could be $10,000 per crash." We don't know that. Until it actually starts happening, we don't know that.
Mr. Hennie Where will you collect the data? Are you going to rely on law enforcement officers?
Ms. Tan We'll pick sites. Like we'll use southern California, as an example because that's where the Hurt study was done. That area will be canvassed for crashes. We'll have an agreement with the police so that when a motorcycle crash happens our crash investigators are notified, and they will converge on the scene and collect their data.
Mr. Hennie In the southern California area, alone?
Ms. Tan We'll probably only have enough funding for one site. That's just an example of where it was done, originally. We could just as well pick another site–say TX or FL. (Someone asks, "For the Pilot, or the full study?") For the full study and the Pilot. They don't have to necessarily be in the same place. We want to pick a place that has a high enough ridership that we won't sit there collecting data for 20 years. We need a place that has a lot of crashes, in a short period of time. So it will be a warmer area. And it's easier if you use the same site, for the Pilot as the main study, because you have set up the contacts already with the police and the emergency responders. But that doesn't necessarily have to be so.
Mr. Bloschock We will volunteer Texas. We have 1 motorcycle death per day; 360 per year.
Ms. Bents But, how about the Dallas area? Trying to get an investigation team on site throughout all of Texas every day would be a challenge. (Laughter)
Mr. Moreland It just strikes me, that a lot is different across the country. Don't you want to sample
Ms. Tan The original study that was done by Harry Hurt and Co. was done only in one area. Yes, there are going to be some regional differences. And those are things that, given the nature of the study and the way the data are collected, we can't necessarily control. I don't have enough money to canvass the entire U.S. It would not be very cost effective to try and deploy a crash team across the entire south of the U.S. for every crash that happens within the next 4 years. I don't have the funds to send someone out every time a motorcycle crash happens; one happens in CA, 1 happens in FL. It's just not going to happen. You have to pick a confined area and focus on that. And hopefully we'll get enough representation with the types of roadways, too. But we don't have a guarantee. We can't tell people go crash and fill all these cells to fit my analysis. It would be kind of nice, if I could. But we can't.
Ms. Bents Gerry.
Mr. Salontai But you have data that shows where more crashes are occurring? Correct?
Ms. Tan Right. And that's part of the criteria that is going to drive our site selection.
Mr. Salontai I've ridden in 15 states. It is different. Southern California riding is very unique, in terms of the country.
Ms. Tan If I had my perfect study and enough funds, I would pick at least 2 different sites. But again, I don't know how the funding is coming in, at this point in time. I can't make that call right now. (Someone asks, "The study will include all crashes? Not just fatal crashes?") Right...–to the extent that we're notified. If nobody tells us of the crash, I can't go investigate it. Any other questions?
Ms. Bents All right. Carol, thank you. The last topic on our agenda today is ITS. We don't have any presentations or any speakers. So who has topics of interest? Suggestions? Concerns?
Mr. Moreland There was language in TEA21 that mandates that motorcycles will be considered in the development of all intelligent transportation systems. I don't know whether or not that's actually happening. I don't have confirmation that it's happening anywhere, because every time I go to an ITS conference, or an international ITS conference, I've never seen a motorcycle on the show floor. I've never been to a conference meeting where they are specifically addressing the needs of motorcyclists. So I have no confidence that they're being addressed. I don't know how we codify or encourage active research and development of motorcycles in technologies. But surely there has got to be a way to refocus attention on the needs of motorcyclists. Absent active inclusion of motorcycles in research and development, entire technologies, entire roadways, will be developed and built and implemented, and then some day we will show up and go, "Well I thought we were supposed to be considered; well we weren't," and they will go, "I'm sorry, you can't be on this road." Before that happens, we need to find a mechanism that allows us to draw attention back to motorcycles in research and development. I don't know what that is, but I think that may be an appropriate place to open the discussion.
Ms. Bents Mike, do you have sense of what's going on...?
Mr. Halladay A tremendous amount of re-analysis, in terms of where the program is and some budget challenges, etc. The VII, Vehicle Infrastructure and Integration, the manufacturing side is represented by a coalition of automobile manufacturers. I personally have not been very active, in terms of ITS America annual meetings, ITS World Congress and ancillary meetings. But you're right, [motorcycles are not represented] in terms of the exhibits and displays, and so forth, and certainly most of the in-vehicle signing and warning that I've been aware of. And we are actively involved in some of the major initiatives, most notably the Cooperative Intersection Collision Avoidance Study. That's a major tier 1 significantly funded, CICAS. That is designing how in-vehicle devices, the human-interface devices, would work in an automobile. I think it's a legitimate concern. And the only thing I would have to say is I don't really have any thing different to report to allay the concern that brought this to the table. In terms of how actively or proactive motorcycles are part of the considerations in the VII work and the other initiatives. So, I really don't know. We had run across this work out of Australia, which showed the same thing, in terms of literature review and what they could find out, how motorcyclists had come in to the program. So far world wide, there just was not a lot of existing information. The manufacturers seem to be responding, to some degree, with different approaches on vehicles. I'm not sure exactly what the representation of motorcycle manufacturers, motorcycle riders, motorcycles as a vehicle, really has been. So I think from this group, we can take that message and try to do a little looking into that.
Ms. Bents There may be two audiences for this kind of recommendation. Certainly there is the FHWA side of it, but there's an awful lot being done by vehicle manufacturers. We see it in the press all of the time. Is there an interest in trying to raise the visibility of motorcycles in the development of their products, too? Because they're looking at blind spots, and getting too close to the vehicle in front of you, and what's behind you, and those kinds of things. And I don't know what the specs are, but they're certainly coming out right now with lots of products–that senses the lane line and whether you're getting too close to that. Perhaps we could ask the manufacturers to provide some information or what ever they're using as guidelines as to whether or not motorcycles are being considered in the development of those products. Any interest in doing that?
Ms. Bents Umesh.
Mr. Shankar Just from my observation, from what I've seen of the makers of motorcycles, I think the manufacturers are moving to crash-avoidance as one of the big issues. And we are seeing some of those in the higher class vehicles, right now. And I think to some extent, this will also help the motorcycle riders.
Ms. Bents Perhaps. If the detection devices are that sensitive, yes.
Mr. Oliver It's also important to note that it's, from the perspective of this Council, looking at the infrastructure side of things. A lot of the things that are done in ITS are on the vehicle side. But as far as the purpose of what this (Council) is going to look at is more of the roadside, infrastructure, and so on and so forth. One of the things that has been looked at is curve warning systems. That's a benefit to motorcycles. That's an advantage to anybody who's traveling on a road with a sudden curve. You mentioned the straight-arrow roads, and when you come up on a curve and there is a curve warning system that's saying you're going too fast, you take this curve (at this speed) you're going to have problems. So curve warning system is one area that has been looked at. I don't think it has specifically looked at motorcycles, though.
Mr. Moreland That's an important distinction; that for this Council to be effective probably has to remember that as much as we have a wish list for raising motorcycles to the top of everyone's wish list, we have to remember that this particular Council has to do with FHWA, and what they do, specifically for the benefit of motorcycle safety. Any recommendations that we were to make, from this Council, should focus on construction, design, maintenance issues that FHWA and AASHTO would have some ability to influence.
Ms. Bents Excellent point and I think at your places this morning you did all get copies of the Implementation Guide for the National Agenda for Motorcycle Safety. That really does focus more on drivers and vehicle operators–what's going on in that side of the house.
Mr. Halladay Your point, well taken. Yes. VII work is centered now, and always has been, in the Joint Program Office for ITS, which is housed administratively RITA, a different organization than FHWA. Rightly so, the observation of the legislation that you mentioned–assuring that motorcycles are given an appropriate and proper place as ITS goes forward–you're not excluding something like VII?
Mr. Moreland No, I would purposely INCLUDE, or err on the side of inclusion and technologies that would bleed over into behavioral or things like that; but, still have connections to [motorcycles]. What ever is in the roadway or affected on the roadway, or nearby the road or toll lanes or access to certain roads that may become automated lanes in the future. Anything like that, where the technologies can be applied to all vehicles, I think that we should consider those things. I don't know, when you get in to vehicle specifics, about avoidance systems and things like that, which are contained in a vehicle, whether or not that is something that specifically you all have something to do with; or whether that's something else...
Mr. Halladay NHTSA has the lead on most of that; it's very true. But certainly like much of safety, the solutions and the coordination needs to come from both sides. So, hardware on the roadsides is part of the picture for VII, for example. State DOTs are part of the leadership group that is engaged in the AASHTO community. Certainly vehicle manufacturers, mainly automobiles and also to some degree trucks because of some of the clearances and special considerations there–and also USDOT. So FHWA is part of that. And I would agree with you and make the same observation that, from this Council, err on the side of inclusion, in terms of what your recommendation should be. I wouldn't hold back.
Ms. Bents Steve.
Mr. Zimmer Is ITS American pretty-much the lead on this? What I'm thinking is we've talked all day about sending out letters, if there was a letter requesting, or reminding certain groups like ITS America or whoever it is on point on these things that there is a Federal mandate that says any ITS activity must include consideration for motorcycles, as Ed points out. Perhaps that could be something that we could do as this Council to remind them, "Don't forget us! We're here watching and we want to make sure you include us. We just want to give you friendly reminder...," so to speak.
Mr. Moreland I don't think a general reminder is necessary. It's been in statute now for two re-authorizations. I guess the question that should be posed from the Council is, "What do you have to show..." for that language? Is there any type of information at FHWA or DOT about it? Not a general a reminder, it should be, "What studies have been conducted that include motorcycles?" And the answer might be not so much data, but at least we should know what we are working with.
Mr. Zimmer The other thing that I am not hearing is we're talking about ITS and future development, there are intelligent transportation and safety initiatives that are going on right now. A perfect example? States that have, or are working to change their laws so that motorcycles can proceed through red lights that don't trigger. That's an ITS situation. It's also a DOT highway maintenance type of thing. So there are things right now that we need to make sure that are being addressed for the motorcycle community. Stop light triggers, toll booths and Easy Pass, those types of intelligent activities accessible to motorcycles. We talked about these last time and I don't know if there is any progress or any changes that have been made. So there are those kinds of issues that right now should be on our radar screen.
Mr. Oliver Right. And to add to that, we have somebody at a research vehicle that came up with that issue about motorcycles not being detected (at stop light triggers). Of course there are some special detections that could be used and that would detect motorcycles. But in the interim, they said when you come to a stop (light) you'll typically see a rectangular loop. Because of the shape of a motorcycle and the shape of a vehicle, for a motorcycle to be detected, instead of driving down the center of it, you need to drive on one of the (edges). So that's one thing that can be done, in the interim, just for your knowledge.

Mr. Halladay

And I think the industry as a whole, in terms of vehicle detection and classification and procedures–signal timing and changing, and so forth–is trying to get better and better and get away from the loops. There are a multitude of kinds of ultrasonics and video detection, and so forth. That's actually been under continuous development and improvement over 10 to 15, 20 years. The industry is learning more and more, but there aren't any perfect solutions. And there aren't mandates that all of that has to be out. So those are some of those things, again, that states, cities, counties make choices on.

But I think it is very valid for this group to reiterate the concerns, for example for tolls, Easy Pass, for vehicle detection for turning the red light green, and overall how motorcycles are being considered, in terms of the services that are envisioned as part of ITS in general. There are a half a dozen or more major initiatives. Vehicle Infrastructure Integration being principle among them, but also collision avoidance at intersections and those sorts of things in which the auto manufacturers, along with USDOT and state DOTs represented by AASHTO, have coalitions on. I think again, a message into those coalitions reminding folks and asking, "how are motorcycles part of this picture?" could be very appropriate. I think what also could be useful - is there anything more specific, in terms of the manufacturers, the groups that are represented here, and so forth, that would be part of that message? I guess that would be mentioned, given the status as automobiles and other vehicles. Some of the unique features, if you will, in terms of detection and such–other elements that this group would want to bring forward? I think that also could be useful to identify. Not necessarily today, obviously. But one reason we brought this [Monash Report] to the fore was this was the first I had really seen of such a complete treatment of potential activities in ITS and motorcycles, and we thought folks would be interested in it. We certainly didn't see this necessarily as a program that we could carry forward here. But things that would rise to the top with this group, again passing them on would be fine.

[?] When I think back 30 years ago, there were no left-turn lights. So there was no reason for a motorcycle to have to be detected. The signal boxes back then were timers. So you had to go up there every so often and kick the box to make the timer proceed; it was stuck inside. (Laughter) Then we went to the plates for detection...
Mr. Hennie ...and now we're going to video. And a lot of times they're setting the video sensor to pick up a car-size object, to eliminate false tripping from a pedestrian or an animal or something. So I think Ed's point is valid that this had been put into code in two authorization bills and we're still dealing with these same problems that have been around for 30+ years, and this may be the chance to address some of those.
Mr. Salontai Is it not our scope to recommend to FHWA if they are developing technology or drafting guidelines or design standards relative to ITS that they include consideration for motorcycle safety in any of those activities, right? It's pretty tough for us to go to the manufacturers, because this committee was not set up to go to the manufacturers of motorcycles. It's really set [up] to give recommendations and guidance to FHWA, in this case. And anything that they're working on in technology that's under development, or anything that's being considered as a guideline, or something that's going to be implemented as a requirement, that's where we should be weighing in on. And I guess to start; we kind of need to know, "what is that?" What is in the works? Maybe then we can address some things, specifically.
Mr. Moreland Can we ask for a presentation perhaps the next time we meet from Mike on what FHWA is doing to incorporate motorcycles into intelligent transportation systems, and their development? Then we know what is being done–what do we need to react to–or what are they developing that we didn't know about, or maybe...
Mr. Halladay I think it's very fair, and safety is only a small part of the full ITS picture within USDOT, Federal Highway Safety. Most of what we're talking about is actually part of our Operations Office. That's where the MUTCD that Mo [Mr. Oliver] and others have mentioned is housed. Technologies for signal timing coordination, corridor management, ITS, and so forth, is mostly housed in our Operations Office. So I think we can look into that, and see about making that kind of information and bring it to the next meeting. Sure. (Mr. Moreland, "It might be a short presentation.") (Laughter) I hope it's longer than I'm aware of. Because like I said, I kind of share the concern, I think, that those manufacturers are not present at the table–for what ever reason–and I must admit I hadn't had full appreciation what's been in there, since TEA21, in terms of, "why not?" Why haven't we seen something? So, point noted–from my perspective.
Ms. Bents OK. We have an Action Item, "For FHWA to provide an update or some information to us on what's happening in ITS, especially that would affect motorcycles." It is 4:29. Is there anything else that someone would like to briefly mention? Thank all of you for a great meeting and we'll see you at 9:00 tomorrow morning.
Adjourn
Fran Bents,
moderator
Ken Kiphart, NASMSA
Nick Artimovich,
FHWA [Speaker]
Ed Moreland, AMA
Carol Tan Darrel Killion, ABATE, SD
Michael Halladay,
FHWA
Steven Zimmer, ABATE, OH.
Mark Bloschock,
TXDOT
Gerald Salontai, Kleinfelder, Inc.
Kathy Van Kleeck,
MSF
Robert McClune, Potters Industries
Jeff Hennie,
MRF
Morris Oliver, FHWA
Call to order

Mr. Oliver

Good morning. I didn't get a chance to catch up with everybody yesterday; but, for those who did get together last night, we had a pretty good time. So I'm thankful for that. And also if I do not have a chance to get back and see each of you individually before you leave, I want to thank you for coming, and just thank you for your participation and making this what it has been over this past day and a half.

I have a couple of things to go over here; make sure I touch base with you on. You should have those Federal Register notices that I talked about and showed yesterday. Also on one of those, it should have the seven different concepts that have been rejected. (Mr. McClune, "They've been rejected?") Yes. That was in 1997. When they took it out and sent it around and got feedback in the Federal Register notice, all those had "bad comprehension" by the people looking at it. So those did not move forward.

Mr. McClune What do you mean by "bad comprehension?" They didn't know what the picture was? (Mr. Oliver, "Yes, exactly.") Because the words are pretty self-explanatory.
Mr. Oliver Well not when it went out to them. Those didn't fly.
Mr. Salontai Who did it go out to, motorcycle riders or just officials...?
Mr. Oliver They were not motorcycle riders, to my knowledge. I didn't get that clarified through our MUTCD people [as to] who it went out to.
Mr. Halladay Bob, you might know more about that process than actually Mo or me. But I think that's the sort of thing that they do; have focus groups and take flash cards sort of saying, "Do you understand the meaning of this?" and it needs to get to a certain level before the National committee will say, "Yeah, I have confidence," in terms of putting in the National standards.
Mr. McClune And when did they do this?
Mr. Oliver 1997.
Mr. McClune Well, in '97 they didn't know what Motorcycles were. (Laughter)
Mr. Halladay There are two types of motorcycles on the road now and that's a figure, I think, from the mid-90s. Isn't it? Again, [it is] the process of bringing some of these things back to the table. That's what Don Vaughn really offered to do I think, in terms of the conversation we had about this yesterday. So perhaps it is timely again through the National committee and the endorsement of this group, potentially....
Mr. Oliver And likewise, speaking of Don Vaughn, you should also have a copy of the letter that came in last night. That was a draft letter.
Mr. Bloschock Are we going to get a chance to talk about that?
Ms. Bents Yes.
Mr. Oliver It's going to be fairly flexible this morning. The time that's allotted here for the various topics, don't really fill it. It's going to be a lot more time for... (Mr. Halladay, "Yeah, we can get in to many of these things.") We'll have more time to do that. So if you haven't had a chance to do homework, yesterday, and look at your draft brochure, you have about another half-hour to do that. So take a look at that and if you have any comments on anything that's in there, we'd like to get your feedback so we can take that into consideration. Also, start thinking about when the next meeting should be. And again if I don't get a chance to get back to you each individually, thanks, we really appreciate your participation. I know it was a major effort for you to get here, but I appreciate everything you've done.
Mr. Salontai Do you want typos? (referring to the draft brochure)
Mr. Halladay (Laughter) Yes, we're accepting all comments... It is draft. We didn't put a big "DRAFT" across it; perhaps we should have.
Mr. Oliver Anything... Anything at all. (Laughter)
Mr. Halladay All of those things are welcome. And actually before we get started if I could mention one other thing, David Winter talked with us right after lunch yesterday and passed out a VMT thing. I just want to mention this is, for right now, internal FHWA. We really haven't communicated fully with NHTSA, which we will of course. And there could be an announcement out of some sort from NHTSA, FHWA, the Secretary's office. So in terms of the dollar amounts, the detailed planning and so forth, this is kind of an internal document, at this point. Just for your knowledge, David brought it over here. We'll be working more, in terms of the details of that–obviously, the timing–and have a broader announcement at some later time. (Mr. Hennie, "in regard to the Symposium...?") The VMT Symposium, exactly. Planned to be held at the NTSB facility and David's still working on the date and timing of that. Thank you.

Ms. Bents

Some of you asked for copies of Mark's presentation yesterday. The video clips, with the cadavers, are not for general consumption. So those won't be available to put up on the Web. But Mark has offered to edit back his presentation with the product information and the other information that you wanted. So he'll get that to me and we'll get that up on the Web. Thanks, Mark.

I'd like to spend a minute this morning first thing to review what we accomplished yesterday and make sure that I get it right. Oh! And welcome to Kathy Van Kleeck. Good to have you back. OK, here we go. These are all of the recommendations, starting at the top. Some should look familiar to you. 1.) A suggestion that there be a Web-based survey of motorcycle riders. To attempt to identify safety issues and to try to work through enthusiast groups. 2.) A recommendation that pavement markings should include skid resistance for junctions, school zones, and crosswalks. 3.) Research should be conducted on pavement markings, with regard to line width, retro-reflectivity, and skid resistance. Those were in the morning. 4.) To improve pavement markings, with regard to line width, retro-reflectivity and skid resistance. For the afternoon, there was sort of a statement–a recommendation–that 5.) Motorcycles should be included with all bicycle and pedestrian safety issues. Because they really are the three vulnerable groups; not just bicyclists and pedestrians. 6.) All safety research issues should include motorcycles, and 7.) We should increase the conspicuity of raised medians. If anyone recalls anything else, we'll add it to the list. Of course, we'll be going over the transcripts, too. Jeff.

Mr. Hennie Can we add something in where we're talking about markings, to also incorporate something (about) non-traditional pavement surfaces? Like I think Bob said yesterday, they're making these fake stone out of the thermo-plastic... (Ms. Bents, "At junctions and crosswalk areas...") ...Yeah. It's just we're encompassing everything and I'd hate to have someone come back and say, "Well you said pavement markings, not pavement."
Ms. Bents We could say pavement AND pavement markings. Would that make sense? (Mr. Hennie, "Yes.") (Someone says, "pavement surface.") OK. Anyone else? Mike
Mr. Halladay On number 1, I thought about this as we got into this yesterday, but I didn't want to throw cold water on it. As you might recall, Carol Tan talked about going through OMB, and so forth. At the Federal level, we can't do surveys easily at all. We have to go through OMB, and what-not. A suggestion would be, in terms of the associations and the membership represented here, if one of the groups here were to take that on, and then bring it to this Council. It just is very difficult to get through the Federal process, and it would be a long time coming. So my suggestion would be–in terms of a quick response back for the next meeting, perhaps if one of the entities here, or some combination, could take that on without Federal involvement, but bring it to the table... (Mr. Salontai, "So you can't just launch like a Zoomerang survey? They only take like 15 minutes to put up on the Web) (Ms. Bents, "Oh, my goodness no... (Laughter) Federal Agencies cannot be asking our citizens do to that. It's a law about paperwork reduction and burden, and so forth).
Mr. Zimmer Would it be something that the state DOTs could put on their sites? Or are they encumbered by the same kind of regulation? I guess that would go state to state, wouldn't it. (Ms. Bents, "Yes, that would be state to state...")
Mr. Halladay Yeah... With the Web survey, Zoomerang, or whatever–Survey Monkey, I think we actually use internally at FHWA; when we survey some of our people we actually use that, but it's internal and we can't go outside to the public. The process was envisioned and I think what you need to think about is who's got mailing lists, or email lists of actual rider groups and those sorts of things. Because it's not hosting on a state DOT site, I think, it's actually hosted by one of these 3rd-party survey providers, free. But then, an email would have to go out to a wide variety of people. So the process would be, "who does have the email list of a representative sample of motorcycle ridership?"
Mr. Salontai Well, that would have to be the associations. Before we even started yesterday, I guess the whole idea was if we wanted to bring some data that supports anything–problems at intersections or whatever–we could put together a survey. My idea was it would just be a Web-hosted portal, using something simple like Zoomerang, and the various associations–whether it be HOG or AMA or whatever–would just notify their riders, whether it's in their monthly magazines or email driven or whatever. Then, it would be voluntary. So when you're talking about the whole country, sure you're not going to get every rider–not even close–but even if we got 10% response, we might be able to glean some data. The only reason to do this is to validate some of the concerns; if there was push-back that [says], "Well is this really a problem?" "We don't really know," "We need to do research." Well this is a way to get and glean information from the rider community. So that was the whole concept.
Ms. Van Kleeck Yes, if we can publicize a link, that you can go to, to fill in the survey, MSF can put it out to rider coaches, Ken could put it out to the riding community, and we could just get people from all the associations and the various constituencies, anybody that... (Mr. Salontai, "what I'm hearing is that the Federal Government can't be that Web portal...") Right. MSF could possibly do that; or one of the other association Websites.
Mr. Halladay That'd be great; if one of the associations stepped up to just host that link.
Ms. Bents Ed.
Mr. Moreland One of us can host the link. The questions I have are 1.) What are the questions; what do we want to poll, and 2.) It has to be set up in a way that discourages artificially inflating the numbers for the ends of any particular group or organization. Often we see, "There's a pole out there in–pick your state. Everybody in the country go vote on that pole, so we can show them that ..." "Hit it 100 times, if you can!" We don't want artificial numbers; we want real numbers. (Mr. Salontai, "American Idol.") Right, American Idol. (Laughter) So, we would need to create the questions. I think through MIC, MSF, SMSA, MRF, AMA, we have an opportunity to glean some information there. But all of the questions would have to be the same questions for purposes of combining the results. (Ms. Van Kleeck, "Yeah. It should be the exact same survey.") We just have to decide what the questions are going to be.
Mr. Hennie The questions, I think, should come out of this group, collectively. (Mr. Halladay, "Absolutely.") (Someone else agrees.)
Ms. Bents And I would recommend that your questions have [predefined] responses, rather than open-ended. Otherwise, we'll have an analysis nightmare.
Mr. Salontai Oh, no. You'll just have to fill in bullets, and there's a strategy in asking questions so that you don't have that.
Mr. Hennie And a lot of those free Web-based ones have protections built in where you can only answer once. And it captures your IP address and then... (Others agree, speaking simultaneously.)
Mr. Salontai Again, I was just bringing this forward from someone else that I reached out to and the only reason to do this is (e.g.,) if we made a recommendation and AASHTO pushed back and said, "We don't see this as a real big problem," then I guess you'd want to go out and say, "No, it is! We've gotten 75,000 responses and this is what we're finding."
Ms. Bents Bob.
Mr. McClune I guess when I saw that, the first time, I maybe misunderstood what the intent was. The survey that I envisioned was to ask whoever we were surveying to identify rider safety issues. That's what I'm worried about. I'm worried about us folks here are not identifying all of the issues. (Mr. Halladay, "So, at least one open-ended question?") More than that; to me, that's the whole survey. It's neat, because the emails that I've been getting, they're coming up with stuff that I never thought of! And you know what? I'm worried that we're going to miss some real important issues from the guys that are out there riding.
Mr. Salontai And you're right. That was actually part of the recommendation. That's right, to capture and throw a bigger net. That was part of what I brought forward. I think as the day went on, we started talking about, "do we have the research or the data that supports this?" So, we could do some of that, also.
Mr. Halladay Maybe it could be a combination. You distilled 3 or 4 key issues–surface friction, signing–and we've identified some. And maybe there could be half a dozen questions, "Is this...," even grading from 1 to 5, "Not important to me," "Very important to me." Then a couple of open-ended questions for other issues.
Ms. Bents Steve.
Mr. Zimmer I guess, as we discuss all these logistics, one that comes to my mind is, who's going to clean this data? Who's going to do the analyses on this? Because with 75,000 responses, how are we going to...?
Mr. Halladay It becomes a research project, if you do it at a sophisticated level. That's one reason I said FHWA can't just jump right into it.
Mr. Zimmer Even if it's just a one-page survey, 75,000 pages to go through is a lot of data to have to condense down. I mean, there's going to be a lot of repetition. (Someone says, "something like Survey Monkey?") They do that automatically.
Ms. Bents Darrel's volunteering here, so... (Mr. Halladay, "Thank you, Darrel.") (Laughter)
Mr. Killion Once the data's in the database, it's a simple matter of just analyzing and carving what you want out of it. I guess my question would be, if we can collect data into, say, an SQL database, is there someone on the Federal level–, or is that something the Fed can do? Or (e.g.), this group could say, "OK, we need to get this out of the database..." I guess what I'm saying is I could write the survey, and put all of the data into an SQL database, and also the search routine, if you will, that will pull it out as we want it. But, I would need 1.) the questions, and 2.) to know what it is we want to pull back out of that data.
Mr. Halladay And then all of a sudden, even with this conversation, it gets more and more complex. But as Bob said, keeping it simple was the original idea. So somewhere in between that is the sweet spot.
Mr. Moreland We don't have to do 75,000 responses. We need something that's viable; something that we think is a representative cross-section number. If that number is 1000, or 2500, there's no reason why we have to poll every motorcyclist in America to find out what most motorcyclists think most of the problems are.
Mr. Killion Here's another thing, too. If I wrote it, I would host it on my Web server, which is located in Rapid City. The number of responses is irrelevant. It could be a million; it doesn't matter. (Mr. Moreland, "except for the narratives.") (Laughter) There can be no narratives.
Mr. Moreland Well, we're asking for narratives...
Mr. Killion Well, yeah, if you get even 1000 responses and you're going to sit down and try to quantify narratives, that can be pretty ambitious. Mike might look at an answer and get one thing out of it, and Fran might get something totally different, and I would get something totally different, again. So, I think you've got to nail it right down to either yes, no, a quantity, or something you can analyze; without having to sit down and reason out what people are trying to tell you.
Ms. Van Kleeck We have coming up on the agenda, the Websites for reporting road hazards. But if that is really getting up and running in some states, I wonder for starters if we can glean information from those to see what kind of hazards, in reality, people are reporting and identifying? Not instead of that, but as a starting point for the database. But, maybe none of those are really up and running.
Mr. Halladay Yeah, I'm not sure. We can look into what we would be able to do. As I say, that's what happens. When you take something and say, "OK, what does it really look like? Who will actually pull the questions together? Is it just YES/NO, TRUE/FALSE, 1-5, or narrative input?" A lot of stuff goes into that. But I think if you keep it relatively simple and go out to a reasonable number of responses–maybe you go step-wise, as Kathy says, maybe you start with something you're already getting–we could look into what we could offer, in terms of some analyses capability, between us and NHTSA. Frankly, represented by Umesh and that crew in their statistics side; they have a lot of capability in that area. And we could talk with them and see what we could do jointly. I don't know what the answer is right now. But I think the idea of the groups represented here sort of sponsoring it on behalf of input to the MAC, this Council, is probably an appropriate process. And who writes it up, and who hosts it and how the notice goes out, and so forth, just takes a small group to figure that out.
Mr. Moreland One thing that's not such an obvious thing, I think, but is likely to emerge. In the event that, in some people's view at least, too much control of the survey results are vested inside of the buildings of FHWA or NHTSA...
Mr. Halladay ...and I've got no problem with, again, a group outside wanting to...
Mr. Moreland ...Right. But I'm just pointing that out now at the front end. Before we get to the other end and someone goes, "I don't think this is what it was. And why would NHTSA want us to say X, Y, and Z?"
Mr. Halladay My preference would be if the Council members as a whole community–outside of the Federal influence, if you will–did this and brought the findings to this table. That's probably an appropriate way to do it. I didn't want to say that we couldn't help with it. I don't know if we can or not. But I think it is more appropriate, again, for the community, without the Federal role, to do that.
Mr. Killion I think Ed's point is well taken and it certainly wouldn't be a problem to write search routines, and so on, and pull the data out that we need.
Mr. Halladay Well as Ken says, I think that Survey Monkey and some of the ones will give you the basic data. Now looking inside narratives, and so forth, yes...; (Mr. Killion, "...there's some limit on what you can pull out with Survey Monkey...") ...there is some limit. Right.
Ms. Bents Action Items?
Mr. Moreland Can we assume then as an Action Item that we between now and next meeting that someone here will have to draft a survey?
Ms. Bents If that's what you all would like to do as an Action Item, yes. We now have a Survey Sub-Committee! (Laughter)
Mr. Halladay That would be the question; who would step forward to pull that together and figure out a little process in Survey Monkey, vs. something different, database, and so forth, and just do it?
Mr. Killion Well I'd be more that happy to write it. But, I would need input as to what questions to ask. I don't want to take that responsibility for the Council.
Mr. Hennie I think we should form a smaller group of whoever wants to participate via email.
Ms. Bents Volunteers? Jeff, Ed, Darrel, Steve; OK. Shelley, we have action item number 5.
Mr. Killion Once you get something put together, then it could be circulated to the whole Council. And it would say, "This is what we've come up with. What do you think? Any input?"
Mr. Salontai As Jeff said, you start with a smaller group and then get the feedback.
Mr. Halladay And then, if you keep it bounded to a 5-10 minute thing, where you really get the key issues, with this small team it wouldn't be hard to draft something up. (Mr. Salontai, "Yeah, you want surveys to be quick.") Yes, a half-page, three-quarter, less than 10 questions, something like that...
Mr. Killion Actually, we run this survey every year. We do it for the Department of Public Safety in South Dakota. Quite honestly, the survey we're talking about is already written. I just have to change questions. (Laughter)

Ms. Bents

[Updating Action Items.]

Bob had some questions this morning on what the draft resolution on pavement markings should look like. So we can go back to that after we talk about what Don Vaughn has created. The second one is that FHWA will pull together information on what's going on in ITS, and present that at the next meeting. The third is for Don Vaughn, part of the hand-outs you got yesterday, to draft letter of endorsement from the MAC that motorcycles be included in the MUTCD. The fourth is that Don will also draft a resolution from the MAC to AASHTO recommending that motorcycle-awareness be an essential element in the design, construction, and maintenance of roadways. Don did volunteer for both of these. We're not volunteering him, since he's absent. (Laughter)

Mr. Salontai That brochure would be really nice to go with that resolution and letter on #4. Somebody receiving that letter would say, "Ok, yeah. We'll take motorcycle-safety into consideration." I think there ought to be a small footnote that the pamphlet–even if it's not in final form yet, because it's close enough... (Mr. Halladay, "Based on comments here, we could be ready to finalize that very quickly.") –should go with that letter and resolution. So then, who would that go to?
Ms. Bents I think that is to the Chairman of AASHTO; whereas #3 is to the sub-committee...
Mr. Halladay Don would know who the key points of contact are. But what you've got in AASHTO is there are summer meetings of very large committees on design, maintenance, and construction. And those meetings are very well-attended; hundreds of people over the summer. But, those are all sub-committees under the standing committee on highways. And again Don Vaughn is tied into one or more of those and he'd know who to send it to. And I think it would be those big 3, if you will.
Mr. Salontai Right. It should go to the appropriate parties, if there are more than one. And again, I would just footnote that; that the little pamphlet ought to be included. Because if they're not familiar with motorcycles, it will be very helpful. That's a powerful little pamphlet.
Mr. Bloschock Don is very valuable because of his knowledge of all these committees. I've participated on some; but I don't have the global view. For example, say there's a sub-committee on bridge railing, something like this should go out to that group, and not just to the standing committees. It should go to some of the sub-committees, too, where it would be appropriate.
Mr. Halladay Don is a member of the standing committee on Highway Traffic Safety, which met 2 weeks ago in Missouri. Now Don was not able to make that meeting, either; but he provided good input for one or more of the topics there. But yeah, coming up this summer, as you say, design, construction, maintenance, traffic engineering; those are the four that I think about as a customer to this message.
Mr. Bloschock For instance, later this month the AASHTO Task Force 13–where Nick and I–will meet out there in Jackson Hole. And he's already said he's going to make 15 minutes available to me–isn't that what you said, Nick?–to make a short presentation of what we're doing. Otherwise, Task Force 13 on standardization would have no knowledge of what we are doing. It's just an awareness attempt, I guess.
Mr. Salontai Right. And I think the tie-in to that little pamphlet is that these are just some, not necessarily limited to, issues related to safety for motorcycles. Because, you know, we may find more as we go along.
Ms. Bents OK, number 5 was the recent volunteer effort on the development of a survey. Is there anything else that should be listed as an Action Item?
Mr. Moreland Do we have any ability to influence ITS conferences, whether it's the national conference or the international conference, on inclusion of motorcycles?
Ms. Bents Well... I'm not familiar with exactly how they work–I haven't been to one in about 15 years–but do they put out a Call for Papers? If they do, we could volunteer to do a presentation on such things...
Mr. Halladay There is a continual cycle of that. I think the ITS America meeting is either later this month or early- mid-June. So that agenda, I'm sure, is pretty-well set. The next World Congress is in China in the fall. But the following World Congress, actually, is in New York, for 2008. So the planning for that is already up and running. But, I think Fran hit it on the head; Call for Papers, call for topics. Having something to come in with, it occurs to me that could be a good session to have. Potentially engaging the folks from Monash University or whatever in terms of findings. So yes, there are the opportunities; but having something specific that you want to pull together would be the proposal to put on the table.
Ms. Bents "Motorcycle Safety: What's Happening and What's Missing," and have a morning session, perhaps. See if we can talk to the program committee...
Mr. Halladay There is sort of a Safety Coordinator within the Joint Program office, which is the office in USDOT that has all the ITS money and programs, and manages that. What I'll seek to do, under #2, is see about engaging her to join us, the next time we get together, and have that kind of conversation.
Ms. Bents Very Good. Shelley, under #2 we can add "Explore opportunities to present at ITS conference." Anything else?
Mr. Hennie Is this letter from Don–#3 then?
Ms. Bents Yes, that is. I got that last night and that will be our next item of discussion.
Mr. McClune I think Dan Centa is addressing this issue at the National Committee in Tahoe. His committee is the committee that handles this stuff. He is traffic engineer for Colorado Springs, CO. Don is probably the guy, actually, that should take this forward, since he's going to be there. But, I'm more than pleased to take this to the exact committee that will deal with it, and corner them, you know, and whisper in their ear and say, "Let's get this done!"
Mr. Halladay I note that Don's got a couple of CCs down below to make sure that other folks know about it. Maybe Dan Centa would be a recommendation to also copy him.
Ms. Van Kleeck But certainly, personally giving it to him and talking to him is the best way.
Mr. McClune Yeah. There's quite a few of those guys who are on that committee that we know pretty well. But, someone obviously is going to have to pay for my trip, though, if I do that. (Laughter) (Mr. Bloschock, "Send it in and it'll be considered...") (Mr. Oliver, "We'll be happy to fax you there...")
Ms. Bents OK. Ready to move on? Next topic of business is the letter.
Ms. Van Kleeck There is one little correction of calling it a Council, rather than a committee.
Ms. Bents It is a Council.
Mr. Salontai Does there need to be an introductory sentence or two that says what the motorcycle advisory committee is? Or do you attach the charter? Because if they're not familiar with it.
Mr. Halladay Yeah, I think that it does carry authority, and is designated by the Secretary of Transportation, under this provision.
Mr. Salontai Right. You could say, "The Motorcycle Advisory Council was established through blah blah blah," and then you could [say], "See attached to identify issues related to motorcycle safety," and then have this sentence, "They respectfully ask you to consider..." So it needs an introduction.
Ms. Bents Any more comments? Oh, Ed has the (Mr. Moreland, "I have the picture.") We don't necessarily like it, but... (Laugher)
Mr. McClune I guess my comment about the letter is that this letter is specific for milled or grooved pavement. And that's it. (Mr. Bloschock, "There are other hazards.") Yeah, that's my point. And I can guarantee you that the committee will take this as exactly that–"We have an issue. It's called milled or grooved pavement. It has nothing to do with gridded bridge decks. It has nothing to do with steel plates in the road." It has nothing to do with all of the other issues. And if that's his intent, that's fine. I'm just bringing to all of your awareness that what you ask for is what you're going to get. (Mr. Hennie, "So we should ask for more.") First of all, we have to identify those things and maybe just for... (Mr. Halladay, "Yes, some of them are in the back," [of the previous handout]) Yeah, and there are good examples of them back there.
Mr. Bloschock I think if we identify kind of the global issues of surface friction and ride quality, then we can put other examples underneath it. And I think milled pavement is just one of them.
Mr. McClune Did I give you back the picture? (Ms. Bents, "It's being passed around.") This is one of the things Gerry and I talked about earlier. I personally like that concept, (Mr. Salontai, "Two signs.") better than what's on the back. Because aren't we asking for a universal symbol for motorcycles? And then let the state traffic engineers use it however they want to use it.
Mr. Bloschock Even it you don't read English, the symbol is a symbol.
Mr. Zimmer Some people react visually to an image, and others work better with textual. So it hits on both levels.
Mr. Bloschock Don's not here, so I can't speak for him. But I wonder if he's trying to get this one example in to the MUTCD because, maybe, it won't have as much resistance as 6 or 7 symbols.
Mr. Salontai The other advantage of having two separate signs is, you have existing situations right now that have a sign about a particular hazard, and you could add just a symbol to those existing signs. Rather than going back and retro-fitting; adding another sign that says the same thing, but just for motorcycles.
Mr. Bloschock You guys were taking about the symbol and I totally agree. For instance the one that I showed from Louisville, (KY) yesterday, had just the words, "Attention Motorcyclists," and I think said, "Uneven Lanes." There is a sign, and I've seen it before, that shows (a picture of) the faulted lanes. Maybe it's not a standard sign, but I've seen that symbol out there before–when they were paving and you have a drop-off because they're putting hot mix down and it's going to be 3 inches or so difference. It's a temporary sign, but that's one I wished they'd had, out in Louisville, rather than just words, as Steve was saying. Because as you drove by, even if you caught in the corner of your eye, you'd go, "Uh oh! Now I know what they're talking about."
Mr. Salontai A quick example of the two signs, where you can add a symbol sign to an existing sign: there's a sign I can think of through the mountains in southern California that says "Strong Crosswinds Ahead." So you could just bolt a symbol of a motorcycle below or above, and then all of a sudden you have the words and you have the symbol. And there's many, many, examples like that. So the Two-Symbol Sign gives you more flexibility.
Ms. Bents Would we like to try to include Don via conference call? I have a number for him and he said he's available... (Mr. Bloschock, "Well we can't speak for him; so I say go get him.") OK. While I try and do that, you guys keep talking.
Mr. Hennie Do we have an opinion on what the better symbol is? Is it the side view; or the rear or front view?
Mr. Bloschock I don't like that view [the rear or front view]; I think it's hard to see. However, for grooved pavement, or maybe for a longitudinal fault that seems to be the symbol. We'd show a car from the back or the rear or the front, rather than from the side. However, for motorcyclists' recognition, it almost has to be from the side.
Mr. Hennie I kind of agree with you. If we're going to bolt down a symbol of a motorcycle below an existing sign, I think it's better to show two wheels. (Others agree.)
Mr. Halladay Yes, in my opinion, the profile is much better.
Mr. Bloschock For instance, when I get back and we talk about the TXDOT Website tomorrow, I think the profile is the way to go; not the silhouette.
Mr. Hennie Especially at 70 MPH, it's not going to register.
Mr. Moreland In this pamphlet, do we want to reinforce what I think is an emerging theme about parity where bicyclists and pedestrians are concerned? For instance under pavement surface, the 2nd bullet point, it says, "The use of thermo-plastic, particularly for broad horizontal intersection lines, can create a slippery surface for motorcycles that stop at intersections." And this is a motorcycle-specific pamphlet, so maybe we don't need it there. But if we did, then that's the place to include bicyclists and pedestrians. Again, that's something for everyone to consider.
Mr. Bloschock I think yesterday our agreement was that anytime we can grab hold of the coattails of bicyclists and pedestrians that it was good for motorcyclists, and not bad. (Others agree.)
Ms. Van Kleeck I think you're definitely right, in that context. But I just wonder if we put bicyclists and pedestrians in one sentence, there are probably all sorts of other considerations that they should be included in. So it makes it look like we considered them, and then decided that this one sentence applies to them, but the rest don't.
Mr. Bloschock I'll give you a real quick run-down of what we did yesterday in about two sentences. I held up the AASHTO spec for pedestrians. I held up the AASHTO spec for bicyclists. From a state DOT perspective, we wouldn't consider designing without these two AASHTO specs. Why is there no motorcycle spec? Because there's unique hazards for motorcyclists. As I've told our district engineers, I don't know if it's 5 years, 10 years or even 20 years away, but there will be a motorcycle spec.
Ms. Van Kleeck Right. And certainly with NHTSA it's motorcycles, bicyclists and pedestrians, and they are all considered... (Mr. Bloschock, "Yes, the 3 vulnerable classes,") Right.
Mr. Moreland Is that one of our recommendations? To have an AASHTO spec for motorcycles? (Answered, "No. We don't have one.") Fran? Is that one of our recommendations? To seek to have AASHTO create a motorcycle spec?
Ms. Bents It's not one yet. Would you like it to be one? (Pause)
Mr. Moreland I think it's reasonable.
Mr. Bloschock I think that's a good place to go. The question that I asked yesterday was - we're supposed to make recommendations and when are we going to start making recommendations? And I think that's really the first one. That's just really the place to reach out and say, "Isn't it time for that." When I've made presentations on motorcycle issues, I've brought that up every time. (Mr. McClune, "So were you suggesting that in Texas you were going to write your own spec?") No. No, no, no, no, no. But I'm suggesting every time I talk to someone, whether it's in Texas or anyplace else, I'm saying, "When is it that a motorcycle spec that recognizes the hazards unique to motorcycles..." (Mr. McClune, "So that would be AASHTO that would do it.") AASHTO is all the states.
Mr. McClune That's a great recommendation.
Mr. Zimmer I mean, I'm unfamiliar with what's in those specs, and so what would be included for ours. I don't know what kind of issues they're dealing with in those specifications...
Mr. Bloschock For instance with bicyclists, they would talk about the width of the lanes that should be provided, whether it's a shared lane or a separate lane. They'd talk about the height of the rails. They would talk about different grades. And then maybe a little bit about the ride quality that's unique for bicyclists. With pedestrians, they would talk about the pavement markings. I'm not aware that the pedestrians have gotten so much into the slipperiness of pavement markings and that's probably an area to look into. When you get into pedestrians, you're looking at ADA issues, Americans with Disabilities Act. So the ramps for the disabled culture would be defined in there. And you'll see all these issues. You saw how thick the books are; there's a lot of stuff in them; a lot of commentary and a lot of guidelines. And actually with pedestrians, there're not really so much guidelines; they're definitely going to be incorporated.
Mr. Halladay And the other thing, unlike bicycles there would be examples of on-road bicycle lanes and how to treat stops and yields, and so forth. And then maybe something about off-road facilities for pedestrians. I think a lot of those books also talk about how to go about planning for those facilities: what's the demand, what's the load. And that would certainly be the case with pedestrians, in terms of crosswalks and turn signals, and so forth.
Mr. Bloschock In these guides will also be some signs. One of my slides from Sweden showed that little sort of triangular looking thing with a bicycle on it. And you know the ones with pedestrians crossing and such. So there are unique signs that are out there for pedestrians, blind pedestrians, and bicycles.
Ms. Bents (Don Vaughn on the phone, and a bit of technical maneuvering to arrange for him to hear and be heard.)
Don Vaughn Good morning everyone. (Everyone responds.)
Mr. McClune We were talking about the National committee meeting in Lake Tahoe in June. I guess you're going to be there? (Mr. Vaughn, "We will be represented...") We're looking at your letter and it is specific for milled and grooved pavement. Was that your intent or should we include additional road hazards that we may have identified?
Mr. Vaughn What we're trying to do is, when we have uneven pavements–edge drop-off, steel plates or grids–to put the motorcycle logo on construction signs to alert motorcyclists that there is something here that is dangerous to you as a passenger in this area.
Mr. McClune OK. So you would not have any pride of authorship if we added some additional road hazards that we as a committee have identified. We're in total agreement with your letter, and the wording of your letter, we're just afraid that if we present it to the sub-committees [as written], the only thing they will consider will be the milled or grooved pavement.
Mr. Vaughn That's a good suggestion. (Mr. McClune, "OK.") Prior to talking to you, I just talked to Fran the other day and this is something I got out very quickly to get before the committee. I didn't expect it to look good as an original draft. So go ahead and feel free to add road signs...
Mr. Bloschock We did miss you yesterday and appreciate the things that you have done. What we were talking about in your absence were issues unique to motorcyclists, those hazards that are associated with ride-quality issues, like pavement and bridge joints, and those issues associated with surface friction. For instance, like the steel utility plates. So what we'd like to do in this memo, I think, is kind of globally look at those issues, and then give examples of unique motorcycle hazards and signs would be needed for milled or grooved pavement and some of those other issues that we were talking about. So we actually wanted to make it a little bit longer and include some of these other issues, both globally and specifically. What do you think?
Mr. Vaughn I think that's good idea.
Ms. Bents Good. Excellent.
Mr. Halladay The other thing we talked about was the next issue, Don that you've volunteered to communicate with AASHTO regarding motorcycle awareness on construction, maintenance, design considering motorcycles. And in fact, making some thoughts specifically to perhaps some of the Chairmen of those sub-committees that have meetings this summer. And Gerry mentioned also perhaps including the brochure that we're going to be talking about shortly, and editing. It's in draft form now, but something that makes it more real. And in fact, that conversation just recently this morning had gone to perhaps suggesting consideration of a Design Guideline on motorcycles. AASHTO does have Design Guidelines on pedestrians, bicycles. A Design Guideline on motorcycle considerations is something that does not seem to be out there in the community. And whether or not that would be something that AASHTO would take on as an initiative.
Mr. Vaughn A Resolution of that nature to FHWA? (Mr. Halladay, "Right.") It could be referred to the appropriate subcommittees.
Mr. Halladay OK. The suggestion, with something like that, might be that whether or not you'd be willing to, as part of the Council, communicate that idea and see what kind of legs it has within the AASHTO community; see what can be initiated.
Mr. Vaughn I hope that our effort results in some deliverable, and I'm very encouraged about the fact that we've had this meeting and we are talking about things like this. The resolution I had in mind did not go quite that far. But I think it's probably appropriate to ask AASHTO to pursue the development of such a Guideline; as an Action Item for AASHTO. I think it would be appropriate that the Resolution should come from the Motorcycle Advisory Council, to the Chairman of the Standing Committee on Highways.
Mr. Bloschock Don, this is what we've been talking about, the last couple of hours of meeting time. I brought with me a copy of the pedestrians spec and the bicycles spec. When I've talked to our District Engineers at one of our monthly meetings, I brought up the fact that the need for a motorcycle spec we think is out there. We don't have one, now. Will we have one in 5 or 10 or 20 years and my response to them is I think we will. So you're right, the Motorcycle Advisory Council is probably the place to start this sort of a movement. What we really need from you is exactly what you're doing; some help in navigating who to send that to and when to send that. I serve on some committees, but I'm at a sub-committee level and I don't really have the global view. So we really need you to kind of help us with that, as a group.
Mr. Vaughn That would be my suggestion; to send it out to the Chair of the Standing Committee on Highways, and they will refer it to the appropriate sub-committee to be worked on. And I was thinking that would be the Design...
Mr. Halladay That's good advice. Standing Committee on Highways is chaired by... (Mr. Vaughn, "Alan Beiler"). And their next meeting, the annual meeting of AASHTO, is coming up right at the end of the summer...
Mr. Vaughn ...got another meeting coming up at the end of the summer. I can't even remember where it is, either. Milwaukee, I think. Yes, Milwaukee.
Mr. Halladay So the timing to get something on the table, in the next month or two, is probably very appropriate.
Mr. Vaughn It is. If we can get this done, I can present it at the meeting of the Standing Committee on Highways for consideration by the full committee.
Ms. Bents OK. We need a volunteer to draft the letter.
Mr. Vaughn Well in the absence of volunteers, I will take that on. (Laughter) (Ms. Bents and others, "Thank you!") I'll be glad to do that. And Fran, how will I get that to you and to the members our committee? Do you want me to work something up and give it to you?
Ms. Bents Yes sir, please. And we'll take it from there.
Mr. Vaughn All right. And what about the letter? I thought the letter about the MUTCD action would carry more weight if it was signed by all members of the Motorcycle Advisory Council.
Ms. Bents We'll find a way to make that happen, as well.
Mr. Vaughn OK. All right. Well, I look forward to seeing the final draft of the letter about MUTCD action. And I'll work on some type of resolution to present to the Standing Committee on Highways.
Ms. Bents That sounds fabulous. Anyone else have any questions or comments for Don? ("Thank you.") We all say thank you, Don.
Mr. Vaughn Well, thank you all for including me. I'm sorry I can't be there with you.
Ms. Bents We miss you, but good luck with your project. (Mr. Vaughn, "All right. Thank you.")
Mr. Bloschock He and I talked in February and he really wanted to be here, and felt strongly about it. But he has those other obligations. So, glad you could get him by phone.
Ms. Bents Me, too.
Mr. McClune So what would be the other hazards that we want to add to this letter for now?
Mr. Killion Maybe we ought to leave it generic and say, "motorcycle-specific hazards"?
Mr. Halladay Road surface hazards, "such as..." Maybe you do a "such as," with a couple of other examples...

Mr. Bloschock

I'm going back to my thing. Surface friction and ride quality, and whatever examples we want to put out there. For instance, where he's had milled or grooved pavement as one of the things; or utility plates, another thing. What I showed in Louisville, the faulting of pavement, whether it's temporary or permanent, that same symbol folks seem to get. If you watch cars go through an overlay area, they tend to not change lanes. If there's some serious shoulder drop-offs or other issues that need to be addressed...

What do you all feel about, as I know Darrel was talking about, curves? Because he's got a lot of straight roads in South Dakota and then all of a sudden a curve. For example, the first traffic light in Childers, it's 140 miles from Amarillo, and you go through nothing for 140 miles. The first traffic light is a killer. So they adopted something that Florida adopted–I think it came from North Carolina–it's a strobe that's in the lights. So when the light is red, you get this white strobe (Someone says, "Virginia does that...") and that's the only one I know of in Texas. But the issue is that thing was run all the time. That strobe is something, not standard, but specific to unique locations. And it's the same thing with motorcycles. We have some unique needs. Is there some creative thing that can help the motorcyclist? And Darrel, since you have the biggest motorcycle rally, you have some of the most unique problems.

Mr. Killion Yes. We see it in the curves. Specifically, it's a problem. (Someone says, "Bell curve?") (Laughter) Well, I think there are two. (Mr. Bloschock, "Coming in, and going out.") (Laughter)
Mr. Hennie I kind of think we need to be a little more specific. The fact that the MUTCD people have never attempted to address any of this; I think we maybe need to help them out and nudge them in the right direction. Instead of saying "all motorcycle hazards," I think we need to address, at least, some general issue areas; to give them food for thought. Because, they're not going to know where to start.
Mr. Bloschock And I think what I've found from the MUTCD folks is a little bit of resistance. So yeah, there has to be some education and some informing with the global issues, and then with the examples. For instance, the one from the pictures that was curious to me was the oil spills. I don't know what "oil spills" is. Would these be temporary signs? Would these be permanent signs? Because oil spill is something you ought to be out cleaning up.
Mr. Hennie They talk about that in the proposed rule where it would be a temporary situation for some of this; then you would cover or remove those signs, as appropriate.
Mr. Bloschock OK. Because the loose sand is one that could be temporary. The metal grating, the milled or grooved pavement is probably temporary–we know they'll go out and overlay that at some point. Crosswinds are one that you would think would be fairly permanent. Would these signs be something that would fold up? Would they be out all the time? For instance in South Dakota, I understand you guys have some winters out there that we don't have in Texas. Motorcycle signs out for 6 months of the year would be ignored, right?
Mr. Killion The last couple of years, they've pretty-much ridden year-round. There were only actually a couple of months, this year, where you hardly saw any motorcycles, at all... (Mr. Bloschock, "Something good about global warming, exactly. You get to ride more.") (Laughter) Well, for those of us that'll ride when the temperature is below 50; a lot of us would just say no. (Laughter)
Mr. Bloschock Well modern motorcycles have a generator capacity now such that there's extra electricity is being generated. Part of the reason for that, up in his part of the country, is to plug in these suits, vests, gloves, and socks that enable you, at about 30°, to go ahead and hit it. Is that correct? (Mr. Killion, "Yep, that's right.")
Ms. Bents I'll have to change the data forms for the Crash Causation Study... (Laughter) We didn't know about all this electric gear.
Mr. Moreland Are we...? Forgive the question, but I'm trying to get my head back around whether or not we're still considering these individual signs. I thought earlier we had come to some resolution on the fact that we think that the symbol should be a profile, with whatever specific message separate. Allowing state DOTs to (e.g.,) put a "Metal Grating" sign, just as a matter of course for all those on the highway; but if it's of particular concern for a motorcycle, they'd just put up the motorcycle sign. So the only responsibility for the motorcyclist is to look for something that shows them specifically of having concern. (Someone says, "I like that.")
Mr. Bloschock Well, you're talking about the diamond sign (Mr. Moreland, "Right.") and that's a hazard to everybody. But if it's thought to be specific to motorcyclists, then you'd have the rectangular one below it. Is that what you're talking about?
Mr. Moreland I think I'm talking about, (e.g.,) you put up a "Grooved Pavement" sign and if it's of particular concern to motorcyclists, then you have a symbol of a motorcycle on the post, as well...,
Mr. Bloschock ...with that separate rectangular sign? Because that's what MUTCD is going to be looking for, I think.
Mr. Halladay I think what Ed is talking about is the diamond orange sign being the motorcycle logo, and then the small rectangular sign below it being "Milled Pavement" or... (Mr. Bloschock and/or Mr. Moreland, "Right.") ...as in the example that was going around.
Mr. Moreland And I think it adds flexibility for state agencies to get the message out. It might not be appropriate, in every single case that we have to call out motorcycles as something that they have to do. But there are places where specific attention needs to be drawn for motorcycles, and if they have the ability to do that through a singular application of a sign, which would also reduce their costs, it would make them more likely to do it in the first place. But my preference is for a profile. (Mr. Oliver, "a standard symbol with different writing under it? Or rather, for a variety of different situations?") Yeah. It could apply to all drivers. This one, "Caution," could be really important for motorcycles so you'd add the motorcycle symbol to the existing sign.
Mr. McClune What's the Interstate that goes across South Dakota? (Mr. Killion, "I90.") You can be blown over on a motorcycle on that Interstate. (Someone says, "Easily.") And they have "Cross Winds" signs that are there, and then to take the motorcycle logo and attach it to that. I think that's what we're talking about.
Mr. Bloschock Fran, I detect a weakness, here, and that is we don't have an MUTCD expert–somebody who's forward thinking here that would come and visit with us next time. Whether that comes from FHWA or where ever...
Mr. Halladay Certainly to give an update. As this letter goes and the meeting is going to be held at Tahoe, and then some kind of report out, in terms of how it came out–reactions and issues. We tried to get somebody here from our MUTCD side to be a part of this conversation. They weren't able to make it; they were out of town, traveling.
Ms. Bents Action items: Get an MUTCD expert. We need to modify the letter a bit to ask for a generic motorcycle symbol...
Mr. Bloschock We need to modify the letter, as I think one our colleagues said, it needs to have a couple of sentences that says what the MAC is, under what authority it is even bothering to send the letter. And you correct me collectively if this is wrong, but some of global issues unique to motorcyclists and then how we would like to see some standard signs available in a permanent way, and a temporary way, to recognize those unique hazards to motorcyclists.
Ms. Bents OK. Does somebody want to draft that?
Mr. Halladay (Someone whispers need for clarification of what was just said.) Talking about the updated edit of what Don wrote and adding an intro, and then broadening the issues down below.
Mr. Moreland I will.
Ms. Bents Ed. Thank you. OK, Ed will edit Don's letter. Ed, if you can get that back to me, I will send that out to the Council, for their review. And then we'll figure out a way to get everybody to sign it.
Break
CALL TO ORDER

Ms. Bents

We have Nick Artimovich, who is going to be talking to us this morning about international barrier designs with motorcyclists in mind. Nick.

Office of Safety Design

Mr. Artimovich

Thank you. When Mo asked me to represent FHWA and talk a little bit about barriers and motorcyclists, I told him I had about 45 seconds worth of material, but give me a whole minute–just to be sure. (Laughter) But he gave me 45 minutes. Fortunately, you've taken up most of it... (Laughter) ...now it's getting back down to 45 seconds. I've been dealing with roadside features with FHWA for the best part of the last 2 decades. And am now the specialist on roadside and median barriers. Mark has shown you some of the crash testing that has been done, all European; dummies and cadavers into various barriers. With the comment that we might not be ready for that because there are not a lot of things in the way of countermeasures. Well I'm about to show you some of the countermeasures that the Europeans have come up with, and are being used sparingly on some of the European roads.

The Australians are also looking into this. But before I get into this (presentation) on barrier design, I'd like to advocate good roadside design in the first place. And that is to have a roadside that is free of hazards in the first place. I teach the roadside design guide course, by the National Highway Institute, and we have a priority for roadside design. The first thing is to remove hazards. So if you have a concrete bridge column, a tree, a rigid sign symbol, the best thing is to eliminate them. If you, for example, can't eliminate a drainage pipe–because you still need to get the water out of the roadway–you extend that pipe out further, or you match the end of that pipe to match the smooth roadside slope. So that any vehicle traversing the end of that pipe basically will not see it. Just go over it and continue on to a safe stop.

Clearing trees is a problem around the country. I spent some in Nebraska on a training program and I really learned the value of trees out there; they do not take them lightly. Trying to get the people to address the roadside issues, with respect to trees, is a difficult one. FHWA has put out a video to help the state highway and other agencies dealing with roadside safety to communicate the tree hazard problem. Because they really don't see themselves as risks for roadside crashes. So good safe roadside design is always the first priority.

When you cannot eliminate a hazard, when you can't move it far enough away so that it's less of a hazard–when you can't make it break away, for example–then we can start looking at ways to shield the motorists from the hazard. Of course, the W-beam barrier, the cable guardrail, the concrete safety shape barrier, we've done a very good job of designing those for the vehicle and [for] some truck impacts. But when it comes to motorcycle impacts, we, in the U.S., have not considered those, as of yet. We have hosted presentations from our European colleagues and understand a little bit more about the situation, over the last few years. But, we have not begun incorporating that into our designs, yet. The Europeans are just starting that.

So let me get into showing you just a little bit of what they are doing over there. (Begins showing the slides of the PowerPoint presentation.) The Europeans have been looking into roadside barriers, with respect to 2-wheeled motorized vehicles, because those are a large proportion of what they have on their roadways. One of the most hazardous features of roadside barriers, of course, is the posts, as Mark has shown in the presentation. There are a number of counter-measure designs which have been implemented to reduce the hazards of those posts. The SPM, Supplemental Protection for Motorcyclists, a Spanish design, was crash tested in Leon, a test facility in France. Using dummies, they showed that it did exhibit fairly good performance; well within the limits. Head Injury Criteria (HIC) of 1000 was enough to cause fatality and the HIC for this supplemental device was on the order of 150-160. So it was well within the limits. They do specify in the Spanish specs to crash test, both at 60 KPH, about 38 MPH, and an angle of 30°; the dummy is accelerated toward the barrier. One instance is where the dummy is sliding parallel to the barrier itself. The other is where the dummy is projected head-on. (Mr. Halladay, "So these are tests done without the motorcycle, just with the dummy?") That's right. They assume the motorcyclist has already left the bike and is sliding toward the barrier. I was able to see the tests on YouTube [.com]–unfortunately, I wasn't able to download those–but the flexibility of this thin sheet of steel is amazing. It almost looks like fabric; the way the dummy hits the barrier; the way the barrier flexes and redirects the dummy away from the posts. It's amazing how well it works. There is another design, woven polyester, and that looks very similar. The flexibility of both of them is amazing. It really does capture and redirect the motorcyclist away from that hazardous post. In practice that SPM and other protection systems are limited in Europe, pretty-much, to sharp curves where frequency of motorcycle impacts with the barriers [is higher].

It's not a system that they intend for general use. They have so many thousands of kilometers of barriers, and they do need to limit the use of these. (Mr. Killion, "Are they inflated type tubes?") No, they are all just rubberized plastic tubes. I don't have very good detail on these, unfortunately.

The German system looks similar to the Spanish system, with a flat plate below the rail; however, you'll notice that this plate is affixed directly to the post. It doesn't have the flexibility of the Spanish system that was off-set. So, this is more like hitting a steel wall, as opposed to hitting a flexible barrier; that would cushion the impact, as well as redirect the operator. In this case, similar to the concrete barrier, it's like hitting a steel or concrete wall. But it does, again, avoid impact with the post itself.

Now the Italian custom system incorporates motorcycle protection with the steel automobile rail itself. It does offset that lower portion away from the face of the post. So, that has a good amount of flexibility, also. Some barrier designs, whether the guard rail or the cable, use posts that are less hazardous to a rider who might impact it. On the left you see the conventional Wye or I-beam post, used in U.S. guard rails. The most severe injuries come, of course, from impacting those sharp corners. The Charlie post–or Sigma post or C-Shape post–rounds those corners and reduces the severity of impact.

A method of protecting cyclists from post impacts is by wrapping the post with a plastic or polystyrene shield. I've seen installations in Europe. I believe Germany and Austria make great use of these, especially at curves and for road rallies for motorcyclists. They will retro-fit the entire route of the course with these post protectors.

The Swedish system for cable barriers has a system for protecting, not only the post near the ground, but also for the upper part of the post, where the motorcyclist is still on the vehicle when they impact. This is the French system. This time it's shown shielding the posts of the cable barriers system. Again, it's a fairly flexible system; intended to distribute the load over the face of that and redirect the motorcyclist away from the post, itself.

As far as standards, there is no European-wide standard for designing barriers for motorcyclists' protection. Spain, Germany, and France do have their own standards. In no way are they harmonized with each other. The English TRL, Transport Research Lab, is looking into developing a standard for the U.K. So that would be four. But there are no plans, as of yet, to introduce this into the CEN, or the European standards. EN-1317 is their standard for roadside barriers, or roadside containment devices as they call them. But there are no plans to include motorcycle protection into that European standard. I just got word from England this morning about that. But that doesn't mean they are standing still. There is a 1-day workshop next month, the 6th of June that is open. It's in Spain. It'll be simultaneously translated and available for anyone interested in any of the infrastructure problems and designs to accommodate motorcyclists. That is a little longer than 45 seconds, but that is what I was able to pull together on European practices. Are there any questions on what they're doing in Europe? I know the Australians–in fact, many of the pictures I got were from Monash University–are looking at that extensively.

Mr. Zimmer With regard to the Charlie posts as opposed to the I-beam posts, is there a major cost difference, where it would be prohibitive for state DOTs to start putting those in? Or is it comparable and might be something that we could suggest and (say), "This is not going to cost you any more, but the benefits are going to be much greater to motorcycling if we can start going to those kinds of things."?
Mr. Artimovich I don't have a good handle on costs, but I think they're fairly comparable. Since most steel shapes are based on the weight and I suspect you can get the Charlie-shaped posts, or the Sigma-shaped posts, to certainly accommodate the cable system at a comparable price. In fact, I know that some of the U.S. cable systems do use the Charlie posts, as opposed to the I-beam posts. The Charlie post was first used in the U.S. on W-beam rails; I think it was, in the late 1960s. There was a strike at the steel mills; so you could not get hot rolled I-beam shapes. The C-shape post is made by cold rolling sheet steel. So they were able to fabricate those while the steel mills were on strike. They are out of Columbia, MD, and there are a number of highway sections that still have the Charlie posts there. So, it is something that is not favored as a first option. I don't know whether it's because of ease of driving it or costs, or availability, but it is an available system.
Mr. Bloschock I was just going to bring up the point that steel posts have to be driven. So it's got to be drivable.
Mr. Halladay What's the word on the eligibility of some of these [European] barrier designs? Is there an issue, in terms of procuring them within the U.S., for roadway projects?
Mr. Artimovich I would think that they would not be an issue, because it would be a safety device. Because the U.S. has not looked into the question of motorcycle hazards to a greater degree, I really wouldn't say it's a recognized safety counter-measure. But I would suspect that someone could make a case for that.
Mr. Bloschock A couple of questions, Nick. You said you found a video of these tests on YouTube[.com]? (Mr. Artimovich, "Right.") How would we get to that?
Mr. Artimovich I did bookmark it. Send me an email and I will send that to you, and you can send it to the rest of the community. They show the dummy tests of both that Spanish flexible steel plate SPM system and the polyester system, which is almost like a window shade or a curtain attached to the bottom of the steel rail. Then there's a bracket that sets in back toward the base of the post, down at the ground level, and then the bracket comes out again toward the roadway to hold out the bottom of this polyester curtain, so that when the rider slides into this curtain, it captures them and redirects them away from any rigid objects. It really doesn't appear to be any more flexible than that steel curtain.
Mr. Bloschock And then the other question is since this is an FHWA Council, how can we apply for the funding for the Spain trip? (Laughter) Your office?
Mr. Artimovich Not quite. My office wouldn't even pay for my travel. Actually, I was approached in January by the TRB–I should say while at a TRB meeting in Spain, by the Spanish Road Authority. They were having their 3rd National Congress session on roadside safety issues; this one, specifically, with respect to roadside barriers and design. They paid for my way over and for accommodations to learn of the U.S. perspective on highway safety issues. And I was asked 1 question after my presentation, and that was, "what about the cheese grater cable barriers?" (Laughter) I relayed to him, of course, the research that the British had done showing that the major problem with barriers was in fact the posts–that irrespective of whether it was a W-beam or a cable system.
Mr. Bloschock Was your presentation in English?
Mr. Artimovich My presentation was in English. They translated my afternoon session, only. Fortunately, my familiarity with the barrier designs allowed me to at least remain somewhat alert. But in the other 2 days of the presentations, (Laughter) I was not able to understand very much of what they were saying, about the crash cushions and guardrails and internals. (Mr. Bloschock, "No habla español?") No habla español. Fortunately, most people did habla inglesó, so I was able to get around very well. (Laughter)
Ms. Bents Jeff.
Mr. Hennie How long have these been employed?
Mr. Artimovich I believe the research began in the mid-1990s and the implementation probably around 2000. It's interesting; I draw the contrast to the U.S. practice of dealing with break-away hardware, crash cushions, and barrier design that began in the 1960s. And it wasn't until maybe the 1990s that Europe and the rest of the world started looking into roadside safety. Of course, the U.S. and many other states began losing sovereign immunity in the 1960s for roadside and highway issues in general. Well in Europe they still have sovereigns, so they still have sovereign immunity. They really don't have a big impetus to look at what happens when the motorist or motorcyclist runs off of the road. They're supposed to stay on the road. There are beginning to realize that that concept, as it failed in the U.S., really should not be the design concept in Europe. They should concern themselves with the motorist that gets off of the paved surface.
Mr. Bloschock I made the comment last night that I actually like lawyers. And they asked, "what are you talking about?" With respect to engineering, if it wasn't for lawyers we would never change anything.
Ms. Bents Carol.
Ms. Tan Do you have a sense of how many miles or kilometers of these treatments have been deployed?
Mr. Artimovich Some of the reports I was able to see did say that they were in the order of a few hundred kilometers. Europe-wide, maybe a few thousand kilometers; mostly at curves and identified high-crash locations.
Ms. Tan And on the barrier that you said you saw both the metal and the nylon–on the nylon; did they talk any thing about the degradation of the product over time because of U.D., for instance?
Mr. Artimovich I did not see any discussion of that, specifically. I highly suspect that the manufacturer considered that.
Ms. Bents Ed.
Mr. Moreland Did you get a sense for how long or complicated a process it would be for the highway authorities in most countries that use those types of system to replace a system once it was impacted? I mean, does it become a maintenance issue or unusable at that point and they'd have to replace entire sections? Or, what's the cost and other implications?
Mr. Artimovich Because they're modular and in some cases simply bolted on to the back of an existing barrier, it would be normal maintenance to go out and replace a section, similar to if there was an automobile impact into a piece of W-beam. They would remove a few dozen bolts, take off the damaged sections, and put them back on. I don't get the impression that there's any more of a problem doing that, with the motorcycle supplemental protection, than there would be with a standard barrier.
Ms. Bents Other questions or comments for Nick? Thank you so much. (Someone says, "That was good.") Shouldn't the Council have field trips? (Laughter) Are there any other comments on barriers design; any issues, questions, concerns? (Someone asks Mr. Artimovich for his email address. Mr. Artimovich writes it down.)
Mr. Artimovich I'm wondering if we can post these sorts of things on the MAC Website even... Is there any problem with that?
Mr. Halladay We can look into that, but it's certainly more expeditious...
Ms. Van Kleeck Maybe Fran could just email us, rather than everybody sending an email to Nick.
Mr. Halladay Yeah. We can consolidate all that.
Mr. Bloschock And Ed, with regard to your question yesterday, Nick and I talked about the cadaver crash testing videos that I showed yesterday. And we both agreed that those are too sensitive to send out electronically and lose control of–and have them on YouTube, and stuff like that. However, I'm going to shorten that presentation that you talked about and send it to Fran, and then it will be available for everybody. But those videos won't be on there.
Mr. Killion I may have missed it in our conversation. Do we have a specific URL for the MAC Website?
Mr. Halladay We do, yes. We'll make sure that's in the minutes, too. It was not part of the handout, but I had a cover sheet myself.
Ms. Bents Thanks, Nick. Thank you very much. The next topic is the brochure.
Mr. Oliver I've gotten some comments from Gerry. Are there any other comments?
Mr. Hennie I think maybe we should modify some of the adverbs here in the first couple of paragraphs. "Astounding" seems to be mentioned a number of times, and "dramatically." Maybe, we don't need to sensationalize it quite as much as that. I think we should definitely note an increase, but I don't want to over sensationalize...
Mr. Halladay In the drafting, we went back and looked at some words. But, point noted; we can do more of that sort of thing based on the sense of this group.
Mr. Oliver Bob.
Mr. McClune Yeah. On the middle section, under "Pavement Surface,"–it's pretty simple, it's just one word, but I think it's important–is says, "Patch potholes promptly." I think you need to take out the "potholes can"; I think it should be "potholes pose a greater hazard to motorcyclists." I don't think there's any "can" about it. (Mr. Halladay, "That's well taken.") And wasn't there something about...?
Mr. Salontai Yes, I gave that to Morris. It cites on the left-hand side the number of fatalities in 2005 and figure 1 goes to 2004. So something needs to get reconciled there. Either the figure needs to be brought forward one more year or, perhaps, on the left-hand side it should be 2004. You need to check that, because it looks funny to have the figure and the text not match up. (Mr. Bloschock, "I believe it should be 2005.") The only other thing, and I gave it to Morris, is the center section, second sentence up at the top, "Roadway Factors" by "Considering motorcycle safety." It's more grammatical, but I was always taught you could eliminate that comma by starting with, "Design and roadway maintenance practitioners can reduce hazards to motorcyclists and other road users by considering motorcyclists' safety." Period. Then you eliminate a comma. It's more of a grammatical style.
Ms. Bents Other comments? Nick.
Mr. Artimovich Under "Roadside Safety," second bullet, the first sentence says, "Consider motorcycle safety when specifying roadside safety features." As I've said, our first priority is to have a clear roadside with nothing on there; with no hazards. Roadside features, whether it's a breakaway sign post or a guardrail, well that's a hazard. It's a hazard to automobile drivers; obviously it's a hazard to motorcycles. The emphasis should be to consider motorcycle safety when designing roadsides. The first priority is to have the roadside clear; keep hazards away from the road. Then, look into designing what you have to put out there, with motorcyclists in mind.
Ms. Bents Do we all like the yellow sign there with the motorcyclist? He looks like he's having a wonderful time. (Laughter) (Someone says, "yeah, he riding standing up with no hands." (Laughter)
Mr. Halladay And I must admit, based on our last discussion over a day and a half, I wondering if that should be in there the way it is.
Mr. Bloschock How about if we took that one out and substituted the one in the presentation we saw today road milled or grooved pavement? Yeah, this one does look like a fun ride.
Mr. Hennie Or something that is roadside related. Because this the roadside safety section...
Mr. Halladay There's a very standard "Curve Ahead" sign that we can use for automobiles or motorcycles, really. I think what we might do is seek to have that [be] the standard sign for "Curve Ahead."
Ms. Bents Could the motorcyclist placard be that standard motorcycle side view? I mean, that's something the Council's advocating.
Mr. Bloschock But the MUTCD is not there yet...
Ms. Tan It might be better to not put something that's not MUTCD in there.
Mr. Halladay For the second consideration, Carol's point is well-taken. We'll see what we can do there, and get the point across that curves are the issue there–along with other roadside features.
Mr. Moreland I was wondering if we had a better opportunity for a picture, in that top left corner–the motorcycle lying there, essentially, in the middle of road, with the fire truck in the back. Either a clearer cause of the crash, because we're talking about road surface maintenance and construction; or perhaps another vehicle there, because other drivers are the cause of so many motorcycle crashes–other than this motorcycle just sitting in the middle of road with no apparent idea for how it got there. (Ms. Bents, "Something highway-related?") Something either highway-related or something that demonstrates that other drivers are a big hazard to motorcycles.
Mr. Zimmer Especially since fire engines generally have the right-of-way, so it would suggest that the motorcycle failed to yield.
Mr. Halladay And by no means do we mean to suggest any of that. It's a matter of finding that "typical" photo. If anybody has something that we could use, let us know. Because we did have some design help through the contractor and whatnot–searching out typical things–for this draft.
Mr. Moreland We've been sent terrible pictures of motorcycles that essentially became hood ornaments because people didn't stop behind them. I mean, we don't want anything like that, that's horrific. That's not the kind of imagery we want to invoke in these materials. But we will look and see what we have.
Mr. Salontai The other thing I wonder is do you want to show something involving another vehicle or do you want to try to exemplify or underscore something that is clear that it was related to design, construction, or maintenance? Like at a curb or something like that, without another vehicle involved. This brochure is actually talking about design standards and those types of things, so that would really be the jewel, I guess.
Mr. Moreland To me, it would depend on the instance we're talking about. Because I think a lot of accidents occur at intersections or on curves involving other vehicles that may or may not violate another rider/driver's lane, too.
Mr. Salontai Right. I agree, if there is one that does show that and shows that it's related. But I guess my point is that the emphasis should be on something that possibly ties to something that's in this pamphlet. And whether it involves another car or not is not necessarily important. If you have one that does, then that's great.
Mr. Halladay We'll do some followup on that, and again, if anybody just can take a quick look at what you might have available, let us know.
Mr. Hennie And maybe this one, too. Where it shows a motorcycle driving on the double yellow line. (Mr. Bloschock, "I'm not sure what that shows,") Yeah. (Laughter) I think maybe we have a better opportunity for that much space. (Mr. Bloschock, "I agree.") (Someone says, "...riding right down the middle of it?") (Laughter) Yeah...
Mr. Oliver What might we show there?
Mr. Hennie I mean, I like the concept, but maybe should show him traveling in the proper lane, you know... I think the idea is to show that motorcyclists really only see a couple of feet on either side in front of them, when they're traveling at speed, but... (Mr. McClune, "Why not have the edge line instead of the center line?") Yeah. Maybe show the road tapering off.
Mr. McClune The point is that there's one head light and that's not a lot of illumination so you don't get to see a lot of the roadway. But, your point is well-taken; it probably should be an edge line rather than a center line.
Mr. Zimmer Perhaps a shot off in the distance with an edge line and a center line, and maybe a warning sign of some sort being illuminated off in the... All you're seeing is just the illumination issues in a distant shot, perhaps. Because right here we're talking about visibility and warning. So the shot should be something that illustrates that kind of idea. So that might be a way to go about that. It might be something that you'd have to go out and stage to get the right picture.
Mr. Halladay Bob, you showed some of that with the AASHTO video yesterday. (Mr. McClune, "Right.") OK. Sure.
Ms. Bents Are the any important points missed in brochure? Did it hit all the right topics? (Some say, "Yes.")
Mr. Halladay Yeah, we tried to takeoff from the overview of the first meeting and even the issues identified in the Motorcycle Action agenda, and so forth.
Mr. McClune What are you going to put in that last page, it says, "For more information"? What's going to go in there?
Mr. Oliver It's probably going to have my name on it; for the FHWA.
Mr. Halladay Yes, for our office, Mo is the overall contact lead; so I think Mo Oliver...
Mr. Hennie And maybe the Website address for the Council... (Someone says, "Sure, that'd be good.")
Mr. Halladay And it is a simple address, just looking at that. So yeah we'll get that in.
Ms. Bents Nick.
Mr. Artimovich Back onto the point you just made; points not discussed here. Pardon my ignorance here. Something I thought of when I saw the sign, and then Jeff mentioned is it recognizable traveling 70 MPH. Is your view of the road signs different when you're on the motorcycle than it is when you're in a car? What is your level of concentration like? Do you have enough time to be able to see and recognize these signs? Do you have less of a time to do that? Do you have to concentrate more on your navigation?
Mr. Moreland I would argue that motorcyclists are more keenly attuned to all of the surroundings, than are car drivers. Where we sit in a higher position. Your peripheral vision is not obscured by the pillars or the person talking next to you, or whatever. I think we have a heightened sense of awareness, as motorcyclists, and I think being on motorcycles makes most people better car drivers.
Mr. Zimmer Because you're OUT in that same environment that the sign is in, you become a little more aware and fixate on it a little better that I think you would if you're in a car. Because, as Ed mentioned, there are distractions all around you; you're in an enclosed space. With a motorcycle, you're right there with it; you have a tendency to catch it and fixate and see what it is.
Mr. Salontai I would agree. It's almost like you're in slow motion. Signs stand out at you; or things along the side of the road stand out a lot clearer when you're on a bike, except at night. And that has to do with the illumination of the headlight and how far it casts out. I don't know, unless somebody disagrees, it's more difficult at night than a car. Especially if you have the new fancy Xenon lights in the cars. But in the daytime, it's a lot easier to see things than it is in a car.
Mr. Artimovich The Agency has an emphasis on improved signage for elderly drivers. It sounds like it'd be the opposite situation here. And I have just one more question. The discussion of the symbol sign–the 2-wheel side view of a bike vs. the end or profile–in my experience with the MUTCD issues, that's a major, multi-year research effort; (Laughter and comments) which of those is more appropriate. And along with that, does it make any difference to automobile drivers, which symbol should be used; or should you concentrate your research on just motorcycles?
Mr. Moreland I think it's important to consider everyone's opinions. I think it's more important that motorcyclists–for whom the sign is important–recognize it as a sign. As a motorcyclist, if something concerns you, you want to be the one to know about and have it pointed out to you. If it doesn't concern a car driver, then there is really no need for them to bother with the sign in the first place. It's not like we're asking them to look out for motorcycles that are coming out from someplace. Absent them having to be wary of a motorcyclist, who might be traversing an unstable road surface, and give them more space or something like that. But if a road is that unsafe, then no one should be driving on it in the first place. But other than that, I think it's important that motorcyclists immediately identify the danger area for themselves. And they're the most important actors in that scenario.
Mr. Zimmer A lot has to do with socialization of the sign, itself. Like an example "Dangerous Crosswinds"–dangerous crosswinds is an important notification for all motorists coming through that section of the road. If there's a motorcycle placard with that, that means the motorcyclists have to pay particular attention because it's even more critical for them to know that there's a dangerous crosswind ahead. We don't want to detract from the importance of the message to all motorists. But I think if we can socialize this so that motorcyclists understand that when there is that placard there, this is a heightened awareness for this particular issue...
Mr. Moreland And that's not inconsistent with placards already on U.S. highways. There are a whole bunch of places in Pennsylvania and Maryland where it warns of a declining radius on an exit ramp. And the symbol that it shows is a tractor-trailer from the rear tipping. And it's of particular concern to a tractor-trailer driver. It's important to all of us to know that we don't want to run into that Jersey wall; but, it's of particular importance to those semi drivers, and that's the one that they choose to highlight in the sign.
Ms. Van Kleeck And Maryland has a lot of motorcycle-specific signs.
Mr. Bloschock We'd like to see some pictures of that?(Laughter)
Ms. Van Kleeck OK, I think there's one on the Woodrow Wilson bridge. (Ms. Bents, "Road trip!") (Laughter) Yes, we can get them from the Maryland Safety Program. –may take a little while.
Mr. Bloschock Great! We'd really like to see that because as we work with MUTCD, the more examples we can show–that they're either good or bad–the quicker maybe they can come to some resolution. Could you send those to Fran?
Ms. Van Kleeck Yeah. It may take a little while, but I'll get them to her.
Mr. Zimmer I have a question. If the MUTCD does not have a standard for motorcycle signage, but Maryland and some states have signs, they are just operating on their own? Just putting them out there?
Mr. Artimovich Well they've been using the standard MUTCD motorcycle symbol; which is the 2-wheel, side view; applying it in the proper MUTCD manner: Make sure it's the appropriate sign. Make sure it's placed (properly). I know that Maryland is fairly good in their own designs of signs that go beyond MUTCD...
Mr. Zimmer So states just have the capability, then, of just doing what ever they want? ("No.") They still have to follow certain guidelines. OK.
Ms. Bents OK, any suggestions or comments on the brochure?
Mr. Halladay I appreciate those comments and the positive reaction. . That was great. We'll take it to the next step.
Ms. Bents Our next topic is state and private Websites reporting road hazards. A couple of those were mentioned the last time, and some folks were excited about it. And, does anyone have an update?
Ms. Van Kleeck Maybe I have a question. NHTSA, earlier this year or maybe last December, published some proposed amendments to its Highway Safety Guidelines, and one of them was roadway safety. MSF had commented–and we had indeed commented under the communication program and outreach component of that guideline–the recommendation of this Council to suggest to states that they establish that sort of thing. The comment deadline closed in March and it wasn't a specific motorcycle guideline, there were 4 or 5 other guidelines. But at any rate, I don't know if you have any [information on the status of that project]?
[?] If the comment period was closed in March, there're working on it. (Ms. Van Kleeck, "Right.")
Mr. Halladay Yes, our office has been involved in that. So, we're aware of those comments.
Ms. Van Kleeck So maybe it'll make it into the final cut?
Mr. Halladay Certainly the identification of roadway hazards. Whether there'll be something separate for motorcycles or combined into all vehicles, or as Mark mentioned state DOTs going ahead and dealing specifically with motorcycles. We're working with NHTSA on the finalization of that. Yes, we've seen that. Appreciate that.
Ms. Bents Terrific. Darrel.
Mr. Killion Just an update on our program. I'm expecting a report from my road hazard coordinator next weekend, actually. But the last time I spoke with her, we weren't inundated with reports, but we'd had several reports and she reports to me all but one of those has been resolved. So, the Department of Public Safety has responded very well to our reports.
Mr. Halladay Now is that something South Dakota ABATE has done on your own Website?
Mr. Killion Through a grant we received from the SD Department of Commerce, we set up a road hazard system with an 800 number. We have about 15 or 16 chapters throughout the state, and each chapter has a road hazard Captain, if you will. And the motorcyclists in that general area contact that Captain and he/she pushes on to the coordinator. And the coordinator then determines which agency to best approach with the problem.
Mr. Halladay It could be a city or county or whatever...? (Mr. Killion, "Exactly.") Sure. Alright.
Ms. Bents Is there any other new business, new topics? Something we didn't discuss? Bob.
Mr. McClune Do we want to take a couple of minutes just to go over some emails...? (Ms. Bents, "Sure.") Yeah. (Mr. Hennie, "That you got?") Whoever. But I've got several comments here; a couple of them that we've gone over. This was interesting; this was from Thomas Day. He is with the Minnesota Motorcycle Monthly magazine. (Mr. Bloschock, "The MMMM.") (Laugher) ...Apparently, during the May and July meetings of the MN Motorcycle Safety Advisory Committee–I didn't know there was such a thing–they had discussions on two particular issues that are of concern to them. One was the painted dot issue that I talked about earlier. This was the letter they wrote to MnDOT, and they say, "We encourage you to request that MnDOT review these initiatives from the motorcycle safety perspective..." The first was painted dots, as I said, and then the other one they said, "You may not be aware that after a period of time, exposure to natural elements reduces tire grip and traction is lost, due to weather and corrosion..." The letter suggests having the dots installed to be hollowed-out circles. And the other one went back to the cable barriers. "As far as the cable barriers are concerned, we have several studies that have proven that cable barriers, known as 'cheese-graters' in Great Britain, are deadly to motorcyclists." They're asking that MnDOT get rid of them. (Mr. Artimovich, "Do they actually cite the studies?") No. I could go back [and find out]; I mean I have the email address. Another one... (Mr. Bloschock, "We'd like to see what those studies are. You bet."). Another one suggested that NHTSA and FHWA should have a booth at motorcycle rallies promoting motorcycle safety. I mean, if we're serious about it, and the Feds are serious about it... (Reaction from some.) I know AMA, for example, is typically at these rallies and has a booth. This is from the director of operations at KDOT that requested this. OK? (Mr. Halladay, "That's Mike Crow; that's on the video.") Yes. Another one says milled or grooved "surfaces are treacherous to riders. If the road has a milled surface, it should have advanced warning so motorcyclists can slow down." So that's consistent. These next three have more to do not with what we're charged with, but with vehicle improvements. "There needs to be an improvement in wet conditions with visibility through helmet and face shields..." And it goes on about that. Another is riding gear that is out there, for example, that is typically not very conspicuous. He gets into the conspicuity aspects of motorcycle jackets, and things that we typically wear. And then this one, "To increase visibility to other drivers, the turn signals and parking lights should be spaced as widely as possible. Would it make sense to install these lamps on the handlebar tips?" I don't know what that's all about. (Ms. Van Kleeck, "There are NHTSA regulations.") Yeah. And then he talks about the lousy horns that are on most motorcycles. (Mr. Bloschock, "I agree with that.") You just can't hear them. (Somebody says softly, "beep, beep.") (Laughter) And we covered most of this other stuff.
Mr. Halladay Most of that came in from the newsletter?
Mr. McClune Well, a couple of these I know came through the ATSSA. And they'll probably ask for another update. I don't know where they got the information; they might have gotten it from me. I may have handed them the minutes. (Mr. Halladay, "I think we provided some material down to Roger Wentz.") Well, Roger published it to all ATSSA members. And for those of you not familiar with ATSSA, it's the American Traffic Safety Services Association and it's all about safety. And it's everybody involved in the highway industry that is interested in safety. So lots of folks are motorcycle riders. So it'd be a good way to get information out.
Mr. Salontai I have a couple. I got an email from a guy who's the head of the motorcycle safety program in Oregon, and he's also the Chair of the TRB Sub-Committee on Motorcycles and Mopeds. And he talks about an NCHRP Motorcycle Guide that's in draft; that has never been released, yet. And there's a lot of research on maintenance and construction practices that they did to develop that guide. Where is that at? Is there anything being gleaned...?
Mr. Halladay What that is, it's one of a series of twenty-some guides that AASHTO is doing. They've come out in 3 waves and Motorcycles is in final draft. And I do believe it's scheduled for publication release in June or July. (Diane Wigle says, "It's going to be later this year. I'm guessing, the fall.") OK. It is in final draft; it's part of the last wave of these. They're known as the Series 500; they are all implementation guidelines that AASHTO took on for implementing the AASHTO Strategic Highway Safety plan. Twenty-two emphasis areas were identified, including one on motorcycles, one on horizontal, stop sign intersections, signalized intersections, and so forth and so on. So that's what that's referring to.
Mr. Hennie Do we know where they gather their information, to come up with this implementation guide? (Ms. Van Kleeck begins, "We had some meetings").
Mr. Killion Two or three years ago, there was a focus group in Tyson's Corner that I was at. They were taking and gathering information. But the specific group charged with developing that guide... kind of like the NTSB meeting, they just kind of gathered and got ideas and I think they've been working on their own, too, outside of that, (Mr. Halladay, "Right.") But that's generally where a lot of it came from was that focus group. From what I understand, that's how it was developed.
Mr. Halladay The mechanism is there's a contractor, through NCHRP, which contracts for developing that guide, and then part of the task is to pull together representative folks of that community. So not everybody could be there of course, but they certainly seek to get that input, and then independent literature review and evaluations and strategies, those sorts of things. So I hope that's a good record. I must admit, I haven't seen the drafting of it; other folks in FHWA may have.
Mr. Killion Steve Garets [author of the email] was pretty highly involved with that. I'm surprised he's not aware of the progress. (Someone simultaneously is saying, "He was the sub-contractor for it. He wrote most of it").
Mr. Salontai Steve said, "As co-author, I spent the better part of a year researching issues central to motorcycles and highway departments. I'm told that some revisions are required before its release, but really know nothing more."
[???] Sounds like there's a whole bunch of stuff in the hopper...
Ms. Bents It's getting it out of the hopper that's the challenge. (Laughter)
Mr. Salontai "If your committee can get this safety guide out, it would be appreciated." No, he didn't say that. (Laughter)
Ms. Bents What else do you have, Gerry?
Mr. Salontai A couple of others. Someone emailed me and suggested that there should be a special emphasis in those states that have severe weather conditions on cleanup of sand and debris sooner in the year–you know, immediately after that season is done. And I don't know if that's something that could be highlighted. There's a bullet here in this pamphlet about debris and fluid spills, and such, but maybe an added sentence that emphasizes particularly those states that have severe winter seasons or something just to reemphasize that. This person cites that, often these areas aren't cleaned until July or August, rather than May or June, and so half the riding season's done...
Mr. Zimmer I know CalTrans has a 48-hour rule, when the snow goes away they have to get the sand off of the road. In Nevada, it sits there for years.
Mr. Salontai Yeah, that's right. CalTrans has that rule; that's correct. So, perhaps there is something there. The other was interesting–but out of the scope of this committee I believe. There's a recommendation here that the states that have these annual vehicle inspections–and I'm talking automobiles–that part of the inspection be included for leaks of fluids. And that those be cited for remedy as part of that inspection process, which is attacking it from a different angle.
Mr. Bloschock I'd have to get rid of all my vehicles, then (Laugher)
Ms/ Wigle Few states do inspections of vehicles like that, anymore–periodic motor vehicle inspections. (Mr. Salontai, "In Massachusetts, they do.") Mostly what they do are inspections for emissions. And Virginia, I think, still does the safety inspections... (Simultaneous comments as to which states do and don't do inspections) The State of Maryland does if you're buying a used vehicle. That's the only time they do a safety inspection and all states don't have them.
Ms. Van Kleeck I think there are about 20 states left that really do have any kind of inspection...
Mr. Killion There's an annual vehicle inspection in Missouri; motorcycles, cars, everybody had to go through a safety inspection every year. And that safety inspection slip is part of your vehicle registration, in order to get your new tags. In fact, I've used that as an example for collecting VMT, because they also collect the mileage on that vehicle inspection slip. That is turned in to the DMV, and now you'd have that specific mileage to a specific VIN number, and an accurate number of how many miles that particular motorcycle travels every year. There are some problems with it; there are some motorcycles–not as many as there used to be–that don't have a speedometer. But at the same time, that was an idea that you could use to collect the VMT. Of course, not every state has a vehicle inspection; but, every state has a tag renewal. But at the same time, there is a collection point for data to get that tag. And that would be a perfect place to attach a mileage accounting for every motorcycle on the road.
Mr. Moreland That would cause big headaches for rider groups. (Mr. Killion, "Why?"). You don't think that riders would say, "Oh my God. Big Brother is looking at me! There want to know how far I'm riding and where I'm going with my motorcycle..."
Mr. Killion You've got to renew your license every year, anyway. I mean...
Mr. Moreland I'm not saying it's not a good idea. I'm saying, it's more of a headache for Jeff and me than it is for anyone else around the table.
Mr. Hennie This email was about cars, right? Checking cars for leaky transmissions?
Mr. Killion I know that we kind of segued away from that. I understand, but I'm just saying that's an idea,
Ms. Van Kleeck And maybe they could have a space for how many drinks you generally have, before you ride? (Laughter)
Ms. Bents Does anyone have any other comments, suggestions... reflections about this meeting? Jeff.
Mr. Hennie I'm just curious what the next step is with this (the sample Brochure)? Are we going to have another revisional round? Or, is the next thing we're going to see a final version?
Mr. Halladay What I would propose–with the comments and input we have–that we would go to final. Now if the group would like to see a proposed final, via email, I think we could certainly do that. (Mr. Hennie, "I'd like that.") Would you like that? Certainly we could make that happen. (Ms. Bents, "Action Item?") It's a matter of timing; we'll see what we can do. Especially if we want to get it on to what Don Vaughn is drafting to the AASHTO group–which helps explain. We could send along a draft of it, perhaps, if the timing is not right. But yeah, depending of the sense of this group, we can get it back out to you.
Ms. Bents OK. Bob.
Mr. McClune Just one quick question; I don't want to take up everybody's time. I was asked to draft a position for the committee for pavement markings. I guess I'm a little confused as to who the audience is. I'd like to address the audience; I'm not sure who the audience is. Don's letter, for example, is specifically going after a target. You want me to just draft it "To Whom It May Concern," for now and then we decide later where it's going?
Mr. Halladay I'm thinking back to our conversation, maybe even the Action Item. I think the conversation was around–one point that we made was–FHWA does have on a regulatory action that's scheduling out pavement markings, retro-reflectivity. And the issue was friction characteristics of markings on the roadway. At this point, I think that's the next Action Item, officially; in terms of regulatory development there. You're right; I don't remember the specific audience for a couple other of the Action Items there .
Mr. McClune To me, I would think the audience is FHWA.
Mr. Halladay Yeah. I think coming in that's fine, in terms of the advice... (Mr. McClune, "OK. I got it.") ...of the Council with this meeting. And then where it goes from here will depend on the schedules. Is that fair?
Mr. McClune That's perfect.
Ms. Bents OK? Other issues. Diane.
Ms. Wigle Let me ask a quick question from the back row. I have always been under the belief that it would not do a lot of good–and it won't be an effective use of our time or money–to have a booth at Sturgis or Daytona; a motorcycle safety booth with NHTSA, FHWA, joint, separate. Do you disagree with that? Just listening to the idea in the email, I just thought it probably wasn't a good idea. But I'm asking [you].
Mr. McClune Let me finish the email, because I didn't read the whole thing. It's a little bit longer that that. And again, this is from Mike Crow who is director of operations; he's also an avid motorcycle rider. "NHTSA and FHWA should have a booth at big cycle rallies promoting motorcycle safety. Both groups should be the premiere safety folk in this business. They should be forming a partnership with all the motorcycle magazines and motorcycle organizations, i.e., AMA, manufacturing riding clubs, riding safety organizations. When you think about motorcycle safety, FHWA and NHTSA should come to mind." So that's his full comment.
Ms. Wigle He suggested the rallies and I just always probably thought it wasn't a good use of our time and money. I'm just curious if you think that's different.
Mr. Kiphart I don't think it should be a Government agency. It ought to be like AMA or SMSA or something...
Ms. Wigle Going in not for us, but including some of our materials. That's how I always viewed it. But Ed, do you agree?
Mr. Moreland I think I agree. I think that letting the motorcycle rider group carry the safety message; as a conduit between the Government agency and the riders, themselves. It's probably a better approach and a better use of resources. Although I would probably be amused to no end to see [a federal agency there]... (Laughter) ...I would love to see that.
Mr. Halladay We actually had 1 or 2 people–at least, that I'm aware of–from our headquarters that were at Sturgis last year and maybe they could...
Ms. Wigle Since he brought it up, it made me think. I haven't asked that question. As we do things through you–the Ride Straight campaign, that kind of thing. I just thought I should ask, as feedback we haven't sought lately. (Mr. Halladay, "Yeah, I had the same concern, if you will...") I'm not sure they really want the Feds in a booth, there.
Mr. Zimmer Yeah, you could set up a booth right next to the beer booth... (Laughter)
Mr. Moreland We'd give you all badges and you guys would have a good ole time... (Laughter)
Ms. Bents Nick.
Mr. Artimovich Could the DOT be of any use to attend those rallies to get feedback? As opposed to an outreach effort.
Mr. Moreland Well, we've discussed that at great length, as well–most recently with NHTSA. And depending on how the survey is structured, the type of questions and the likelihood that the type of information that you're trying to glean from those type of interviews, in that environment, are you going to get the responses that you want? Are you going to get truthful responses? I think that resources could be better spent elsewhere, having more one-on-one time, perhaps, with a motorcyclist to glean some questions that you're trying to ask them.
Mr. Killion You might have better response if you went to, say, some of the bigger motorcycle SHOWS (Others agree.) as opposed to [rallies].
Ms. Wigle That was our discussion. We also want to get a greater representation of motorcyclists of all sorts: the weekend, the avid, the sports, or whatever they do.
Mr. Moreland Rallies typically lend themselves to specific types of riders and in very specific demographics probably; in terms of the size of their motorcycles, the brand of their motorcycles in some cases. The gender of the rider, the race of the rider; there are a lot of things that are specific to different rallies. So I think, going to an international motorcycle show–of which there are a number every year, all over the country–we sort of decided that was probably a better approach and a better cross sectional representation of the motorcyclist.
Ms. Bents OK. Other comments, items, suggestions... Then let's review the Recommendations and Action Items that have come up this morning.
Mr. Moreland When are you going to send this out?
Ms. Bents There is a Final Report that I do, and it will be included in those. And it also shows up in the transcription, because we'll have a verbatim–I mean, we'll try to make it sound a little better (Laughter)–transcription of the meeting and it'll be shown in there, too. And then it all goes onto the Website
Mr. Moreland What about for the people on the committee? Since there are Action Items in here, I want to have an opportunity to start as early possible on the things I'm committed to.
Ms. Bents Yes, you'll get copies of all those things and then I'll remind you before the next meeting.
Mr. Halladay But we can probably get the Action Items out in days or weeks, rather than months. (Ms. Bents, "Yes, we get wrapped up in a couple of weeks.") We have a couple of things coming in, to you Fran that we will get back out. And maybe a synopsis-sized action list will be a part of that.
Ms. Bents OK. We have added Action Items. 6.) Volunteers for looking into developing a Web-based survey; 7.) For FHWA to bring in an MUTCD expert at the next meeting; 8.) Kathy will send motorcycle sign pictures, and 9.) FHWA will send an email of the revised brochure (Mr. Halladay, "Basically, it will be the Final Draft.") the Final Draft. Was there anything else that was an Action Item? OK, that's it! I think we accomplished an awful lot. The next item of business is when and where would you like to meet again? Spain is lovely in the fall... (Laughter)
Mr. Hennie Aren't we trying to do every 6 months or so?
Mr. Halladay It's probably closer to 8 or something like that–6-10 months or something. It seems to me that Don's representation at the Standing Committee on Highways is going to be in September or early October, perhaps late October or November comes to mind. (Mr. Zimmer, "Why don't we wait until it snows here, and then we'll show up."?) (Laughter) (Discussion on best time to meet.)
Ms. Bents Early November, OK. For the next meeting, 1 day, 2 days? Did you like the day and a half? (Someone says, "I like the 10am start time.") (Laughter) OK. The agenda will certainly drive that. As you have ideas or suggestions, please don't hesitate to email me. Well I think that's it for me. Mike, do you have some closing comments?
Mr. Halladay Sure. I guess I invite anybody else who has any thoughts on the meeting [to speak up], and what not. I don't have anything specific, but I think it's been great. I appreciate Jeff's comments. We didn't prepare anything for him, really, when he spoke to us. But his thoughts about the second meeting of the group; sometimes there is a down trough, or whatever, in our agenda. I really sensed a lot of good volunteerism from the individual folks in the Council; the ideas of input through your members and such; some of the specificity of us moving forward. Certainly, through FHWA as a [resource for] advice; but, also other avenues–using the influence of this group in other ways. There were a lot of, I think, very positive examples of the group as a whole moving forward an agenda; some Action Items, some ideas that I think really served the purpose of bringing the group together. So, I've really appreciated how action-oriented we have seen [the group to be], over the last day and a half. And, it is very positive. Any other thoughts or inputs, or suggestions to us–Mo, Fran, myself, NHTSA–certainly appreciate the participation from others. And I know there are a lot of activities that we remain coordinated on. Any other thoughts or perspectives? Recommendations?
Mr. Bloschock I'll take one and that is because of funding considerations–any organization can only send people to so many places, so–folks like myself are very particular about where we go. Because you're only going to get to go out of state a couple of times a year, maybe. This is one where I get a sense that things are going to happen from this Council; that we're going to make a difference. So, I'm going to continue to show up, on time, and keep participating, because I get that sense from it. There are other committees that you'll find that folks, like from a state DOT, will participate in for a while, and then it sort of just goes away because nothing happens. I have the sense that something's going to happen here.
Mr. Zimmer So after you retire, you're still going show up?
Mr. Bloschock Yes. You bet.
Adjourn

 

Office of Operations FHWA Safety Home