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Research in NOAA
Interview with Doug Forsyth
November 8, 2007
![Doug Forsyth](https://webarchive.library.unt.edu/web/20090114164325im_/http://www.oar.noaa.gov/podcast/audio2007/forsyth.jpg)
BARRY REICHENBAUGH: This is Barry Reichenbaugh with the NOAA Research
Communications Office, and I'm in Norman, Oklahoma, at the National Severe
Storms Laboratory with Doug Forsyth. Doug, can you tell me what it is
you do here?
DOUG FORSYTH: Well, I'm Chief of Radar Research and Development
for the National Severe Storms Lab. And I've also been the program manager
for the National Weather Center building project, but that's coming to
an end so I'm reverting back to concentrating more on my Chief of Radar
Research and Development here.
BARRY REICHENBAUGH: Let's talk a little bit about that.
 What types of radar research are done here at the National Severe Storms
Lab?
DOUG FORSYTH: Well, we're actually doing research on
various frequencies or wavelengths. We've concentrated in the past mainly
at the 10cm, also called S-band frequency of wavelengths of radars.Â
And we started back in the early days, I guess, in 1962 when we had a
weather radar lab here and wasn't really even called the National Severe
Storms Lab. And then in 1964 we became the National Severe Storms Laboratory
and moved to Norman and combined with that weather radar lab. But we
were looking at the WSR-57 at that time and how we used it and doing
research with it.
And over time we started looking at Doppler weather radar,
and then in the late '60s we actually acquired a Doppler weather radar.Â
It was an excessed radar that came from the Air Force, had worked in
the dew line basically, and it was an S-band radar also, 10cm. But it
had this Doppler capability, so we started looking at the Doppler capability
and what it could do for identifying severe weather.
It came operational in 1971, the Norman Doppler. And
in 1973 we actually got a second Doppler system running at Cimarron,
which was about 25 miles to the northwest of our Norman location. And
that gave us the capability to do dual Doppler, and we were the first
folks to actually do that kind of research of looking at -- if you'll
recall, Doppler radar only measures winds coming towards and away from
the radar so we really only get a signature of what's going on, as far
as what's going on in the wind field. And by using dual Doppler, you
could actually get two looks at it and by combining that information,
you can actually figure out the true wind. So then you get a real wind
field and being able to map that, and that's what dual Doppler gave us
the capability to do.
So that was a new thing for NSSL. And over time we saw
signatures that were of rotating thunderstorms that are called mesocyclones,
and that's really what got us into moving this technology to the National
Weather Service. And in about 1977 they ran a program called JDOP, the
Joint Doppler Operational Project. And I became part of that. I was
in the Air Force at the time, but I became an Air Force person that came
down here and actually worked in JDOP to prove these concepts to the
public and to the National Weather Service that Doppler radar really
was an advantage, and that we ought to put that on the fleet of radars
out there. And that led to the WSR-88D which is our operational radar
today.
Over that time we've also worked on improving that radar.Â
We've improved algorithms on that radar. I wrote the original tracking
algorithm that was on the radar that actually tracked cells, and that's
long gone by the wayside with the research we've done. But we've improved
algorithms over time. And so building up, we're continuing to do that
and looking at new advantages. And I'll tell you about a few of those
in a moment.
But we have gotten into other wavelengths of radars and
studying the use of those. And mainly with our mobile radar program
called SMART-R's and we started off at X-band and then went to a C-band
system. C-band is about 5GHz in frequency and it's able to look at smaller
particles, really, but it has more attenuation than the S-band radars
do. So it has a capability that you're looking with a finer beam width
normally for the size of the antenna so it's capable of being mobile,
much more capable of being mobile than an S-band system is.
And then we're now also building an X-band dual polarized
system, and I'm going to talk about Dual-Pole in a minute. But we've
gotten into these other frequencies of looking at how they might contribute
to our understanding of severe weather.
BARRY REICHENBAUGH: So Doppler radar took a while before
it actually matured and got recognized as a valuable tool and then budgeted
for and fielded.
DOUG FORSYTH: Yes.
BARRY REICHENBAUGH: Pretty long transition.
DOUG FORSYTH: Pretty long transition. I mean, in 1971
we were first starting to do our first things with Doppler radar. Of
course, if you remember, in '71 computers were pretty archaic and we
didn't have a whole lot of processing capability. In fact on the original
ones, we didn't even have color displays or any real type of good displays
of the Doppler information.
They developed a special display here at NSSL for looking
at the various, what we called moments, but it was reflectivity, velocity,
and spectrum width. And it could show them all in one character on a
display at a given range gate and azimuth and it actually was one of
the first ways of looking at this Doppler velocity information.
Then over time we got the color displays, where we displayed
data coming inbound in one color and data going out in another and by
the color differences, we could see these rotations and differences in
the wind field. But it took from '71 to almost '81 to even get a program
started. That's ten years. And then from the time we started the program
'til the time the radars were implemented in the field, that took until
about 1993. So they started implementing them in 1988, but then finished
that up in 1993 or '94. So it took a long time and we find that in the
radar development business, that even the Dual-Pole research -- dual-polarization
is looking at both vertical and horizontally polarized waves.
Weather radars that we work with today are only horizontally
polarized. They send out a wave in the atmosphere that's long and horizontal
and receive it back that way. And we found that theory said that you
could probably use both polarizations and figure out something about
the size of raindrops and various information.
Well, that research started back in the late -- well,
kind of the early '70s, but we really didn't have a system to collect
that data until about 1988, when we started collecting real data on Dual-Pole.Â
And Dual-Pole's just now starting to go into the field. It'll be fielded
in 2009. Â So here's another very long transition from the time we started
recognizing a potential, to the time that we actually are going to have
it fielded. But, you know, 2011 we'll probably have it fielded out on
all the radars out there.
BARRY REICHENBAUGH: You alluded to some of the other
things that are in the works. Why don't you talk a little bit about
that?
DOUG FORSYTH: Well, dual-polarization, of course, is
a great new -- going to be a great new tool out there, and it may be
as revolutionizing as the Doppler was when it came along, because of
our ability to improve data quality based on dual-polarization.
We can actually tell what are bugs and what are birds,
as opposed to what is rain, as opposed to what is hail and frozen precip.Â
So we can start mapping out where these things are located and improve
our data quality a little bit. We have the ability to do better rainfall
estimates because we now use not the power being returned, but the phase
change. So when we send out a wave, the timing gets moved slightly as
it goes through water.
And by measuring those differences in the vertical and
horizontal, we can actually tell how big the raindrop is. And the other
thing is, is that when we have power being returned, if we don't get
-- if the calibration of the radar, the transmitter that's putting out
the power, if it loses power, then we get less power returned. So we
have to make sure that everything's calibrated pretty precisely.
With the phase change you don't have to do that. So as
long as you get some power on the target, being a raindrop or whatever
we're trying to measure, we get a better estimate of what's going on,
the precip that's going on; therefore, we can make better rainfall estimates.Â
So we're going to improve our rainfall estimates tremendously.
And then now we can map the hydrometeors and where they're located: Â raindrops,
hail, frozen precip. We can map where that's located within the storm.Â
Now we're starting to get a feel so that we can put that into models.Â
We can start to understand which hydrometeors are contributing to various
aspects in the model, and we'll be able to improve or parameterizaion
of those types of parameters in the models, just by knowing where they're
at and how they're moving. And so having this ability to map where various
types of precip are in a storm will allow us to improve our models, so
we should have much improvement there too. So Dual-Pole is going to
be a great advantage to us.
And as our chief scientist Duson Zrnic loves to say, ‘It's
going to be revolutionizing.’ Probably more than the Doppler radar did
when it came along, and it was pretty revolutionizing. We've improved
our warnings across the country tremendously by having the Doppler capability.
The other things we're working on, we're always trying
to improve the WSR-88D. We have programs that go on and the National
Weather Service funds us in a program called the NEXRAD Product Improvement.Â
And we do various upgrades to algorithms. We're working on various improvements
in data collection, etc.
But the next real big thing that'll happen after dual-polarization
is implemented is that we'll go to looking at a system called Phased
Array. Now, it's a new technology, been around a long time in the military
but new to weather. This technology was implemented on ships in the
mid-70s, so it's been used a lot for aircraft tracking, etc.
But when I talk about Phased Array, phasing is just a
word for timing. And we do that every day with our ears. So I like
to use that analogy. If a sound wave comes from a given direction, it
hits one ear first and then the other. And our brain tells us it came
from that direction. That's phasing. That's actually the phasing and
the elements where the two arrays are ears.
Well, a phased array has multiple elements. So our current
testing system has 4,352 elements on the array, so each one of those
is doing the same thing. They're measuring the wave return and the timing
and so they know exactly where that return came from. But in this case,
we can also send energy out from those arrays, so I can form a beam in
the atmosphere by the timing of when I release energy from each one of
these elements. And that forms a beam in the atmosphere.
Conventional radars, they have what's called a feed horn
and then you have to move the antenna to point where the beam's going
to go. But with a phased array system, you just tell which elements
to release their energy at what time, and that moves the beam within
plus or minus 45 degrees.
So I can scan a 90-degree sector electronically, and I
get a lot of speed and I get a lot of versatility out of that. And so
we're just now trying this technology on weather and we're just starting
to test that. So that's going to be some exciting technology that we
feel we can adapt to weather but we're still trying to prove that.
BARRY REICHENBAUGH: Now, the way I understand Doppler
is that it basically spins around in a 360-degree circle.
DOUG FORSYTH: That's a conventional radar. But both
of these have Doppler capability. And a conventional radar does have
to move the antenna 360 degrees in order to see the full 360 degrees.Â
With a four-faced phased array antenna, you do everything electronically.Â
There's no moving parts. You just scan plus or minus 90 degrees off
each face if it's a four-face system. And I can do that all electronically.Â
And I can do that, of course, four times faster than I can scan a rotating
one, just because I can process each one of these faces separately.Â
So that's quite an advantage.
BARRY REICHENBAUGH: Â If you've got a severe storm or something
moving at an angle and you've got that conventional radar, you can only
get an updated picture of that every --
DOUG FORSYTH: Well, on average today they'll get it about
four minutes or so in their fastly scanned strategy, six minutes in some
of their other scan strategies. But the WSR-88Ds normally take that
long to actually scan. It doesn't take them that long to scan 360 degrees,
but to get a full volumetric picture of what's going on in the atmosphere,
it does take them that long.
BARRY REICHENBAUGH: Right. Yeah.
DOUG FORSYTH: And we can do that same type of thing in
less than a minute. So we get volume scans of less than a minute. And
we're starting to see details in storms that we have never seen before,
just because of this faster scanning.
I've got a tornado that we captured on May 29th of 2004
that we're just starting to look at with Phased Array, but the volume
scans are every 15 seconds. And you see things moving in the atmosphere
that we've never seen before by looking at the storm, and it's pretty
amazing stuff.
Now, what that means we don't know yet, but we do know
that we're seeing detail that we haven't been able to see before.
BARRY REICHENBAUGH: Anything else you want to add?
DOUG FORSYTH: Well, the Phased Array Program based on
research funding, we're looking at how that actually applies to weather,
and we're making good progress in that direction. But we still need
to test out a few things, like putting dual-polarization on a phased
array system.
Once the fleet of radars go to a polarization, they're
not going to want to go back to conventional radar just because I can
scan it faster. And so we need to test that particular idea out, and
we're moving in that direction to try to do that.
We also have to understand how we're going to display
this stuff to the user, how we're going to make decisions, the decision
theory that comes along, how the algorithms are going to work on these
faster updated databases. All of that is research that needs to be done.Â
So we've got a lot of research ahead of us before we're ready to make
a decision on whether this is technology that ought to be implemented
in a fleet of radars out there.
BARRY REICHENBAUGH: Right. And as I understand it, the
research in that area is collaborative, with the academic arena and also
other federal players, I guess?
DOUG FORSYTH: That's right. This has been a collaborative
program from day one. NOAA did not have the money to be able to build
a phased array system even for testing. And so this National Weather
Radar Testbed was a collaborative project between the Navy, NOAA, the
FAA, Oklahoma State Board of Regents, the University of Oklahoma. And
then we have private partners, Lockheed-Martin and Basic Commerce Industries.Â
And all of us have combined money, basically, to actually build the facility
that we have for testing right now. And it's a great collaborative partnership,
and we're continuing to improve on that.
And basically our C-band radars, our mobile radars are
collaborative projects between Texas A&M and Texas Tech and the University of Oklahoma
and NSSL, are all partners in two of the C-band radars. And we're getting
ready to dual-polarize one of the C-bands, so we're going to have a dual-polarization
capability there. And then we're collaborating with the University of
Oklahoma on the X-band Dual-Pole. So we've got a lot of collaborative
efforts.
And really to do science these days you need to be collaborating,
because there's just not enough funding to go around. And by having
these extra resources and people, we get a lot more done in a shorter
period of time.
BARRY REICHENBAUGH: I guess there's the potential that
people who have different uses for radar could share a single radar rather
than, the FAA has one over here, and NOAA has one here, and then the
Air Force has one over there.
DOUG FORSYTH: That's exactly right. And the concept
with the multifunction phased array -- and that's something that we're
now starting to look at -- we knew that it could track missiles and aircraft,
but what was its application to weather and could we make it a weather
radar? Well, we've now shown that aspect. Now we want to bring those
back together and do both missions at the same time.
And if we can do this multifunction mission at the same
time, we can save installing a lot of radars across the country. The
FAA has over 500 radars that they think they could reduce down to about
300 or so by this application of a multifunction radar. Â And NOAA could
ride right along with that and be on that same amount of 350 radars.
Well, that's a great reduction in cost to the infrastructure
of the United States or the public that needs to pay for that. And if
we can do this multi-mission function, which we feel we can but we need
to get a system out there, a prototype to show that that's possible.Â
And so that's exciting, too.
And then we have Homeland Security and the Department
of Defense that also have missions that might benefit from -- and probably
would benefit from -- this multifunction radar. So we're looking at
all these partners from the FAA and DoD and Homeland Security, and combining
with NOAA to actually build a multifunction system.
BARRY REICHENBAUGH: You've been here quite a while. I'd like you to
maybe go back in time a little bit and just tell us -- you mentioned
you were in the Air Force, but how did you get into this career field?
DOUG FORSYTH: Well, I got into meteorology through the
Air Force basically. And I really had gone through Air Force ROTC and
wanted to be a pilot and my eyes weren't good enough. And then I thought
I could probably be a navigator and as I got to my final physical, they
said, ‘No, your eyes aren't good enough for that either. And so what
would you like to do in the Air Force?’
And I said, ‘Well, I was trained as an electrical engineer,’
but I said, ‘What are my options?’ And they said, ‘Well, we really need
meteorologists, and if you'd really like to get into that field, we'll
send you off to school for another year.’ And of course being a young
person as I was, going off to school for my first year in the Air Force
seemed like a pretty good thing to do.
So they sent me to Penn State, and I got a degree in Meteorology
and that's how I got into the meteorology field. I worked various aspects
of automation concerning that field. I was at the Air Force Global Weather
Central, and I actually went out and installed a telescope or helped
work on one at Palehua Solar Observatory solar site. But then I got
into the radar business. I came back to the Pentagon and then they sent
me out here for JDOP. They were looking for someone to be part of the
Joint Doppler Operational Project, and I just happened to be available
and I knew some folks that were working that program.
And that got me into a Master's program here at the University
of Oklahoma where I got my degree and also worked on this Joint Doppler
Operational Project. From there I went to the Air Force Geophysics Lab.Â
So that's how I got into the radar business and it kind of fit with my
EE degree. And so I was happy being in that arrangement.
And I ended up back here in what was the initial group
of now called the Radar Operations Center, but at the time it was called
the Initial Operational Test Facility, IOTF for NEXRAD. And we had a
DoD component, and the NEXRAD Program is a multi-agency (DoD, FAA, and
NOAA) program.
And I came back as part of that. And then DoD was going
to move me, and I decided that I really loved radar and I ought to stay
in it. And so I asked Ed Kessler at the time if I could get a position
here. He was the director of the National Severe Storms Lab, and he
thought maybe we could work that out.
And over the next six months -- it took a while -- and some finagling
on they didn't want to pay me what my original salary was, so we had
some salary issues. But we finally worked all those out through the
Department of Commerce, and I came on as a special projects manager here
at the National Severe Storms Lab in 1985. And I've been here ever since.Â
And I've moved through various positions. I've been division director
or manager several times. Moved up to be the assistant director and
was deputy director, acting director for a period of time. And then
went back to being a manager of a division. And so I've gone back to
the radar side of the group. And a very enjoyable career so far, and
I really love being at the National Severe Storms Lab. When I was assistant
director, that's how I got involved in the building stuff and eventually
became program manager for helping build the National Weather Center
here. So that's been a fun career.
BARRY REICHENBAUGH: Yeah. And you're collocated with
so many other assets here. I know you're probably interacting with young
students. I'm wondering if you could talk a little bit about advice
you offer them, in terms of careers in this field.
DOUG FORSYTH: Well, meteorology is a great field and
there's a lot of aspects to meteorology. And you can get into the radar
side of things or you can get into modeling of the atmosphere. You can
get into looking at climate. You can get into looking at surface observations.Â
There's just so many aspects of that.
But I encourage folks that are interested in observing
the atmosphere to get into this type of business and find your niche
of where you really like to work, because there's so many of them out
there. And across NOAA, I mean, we have air quality research that you
can do. You can be involved in the upper atmosphere, high atmosphere.Â
You can be involved in the oceans, if that's where you want to be, and
that link to the atmosphere. So there's just a lot of things that you
can be involved with coming through meteorology.
And if you're interested in water and hydrology, I mean,
there's another connection. So we've just got so many opportunities
within NOAA. You've got to have an interest in some math, because you're
going to get into some heavier maths so you've got to have a fairly good
background in that. But once you get by the dynamics courses, you're
pretty well set. It's a fun career field and if you're interested in
the atmosphere, you ought to go into it, or chasing storms or whatever
aspect that might be. I mean, lots of folks like to observe tornadoes
and severe weather. And of course that's what we're well-known for.
But you get an opportunity to be involved in lots of different
aspects, whether it's going into the field and doing observations or
working with radar development or various aspects.
BARRY REICHENBAUGH: Okay. Well, thanks, Doug.
DOUG FORSYTH: You're welcome. Thank you, Barry.
BARRY REICHENBAUGH: All right.