Interview on House Resolution 106

TRT Television: Ambassador, thank you so much for accepting the interview.

The House Foreign Relations Committee will mark up Resolution 106 tomorrow. I'm not going to ask you what may or may not happen at the House. After all, we all have to respect the decisions of our elected officials. But I'm going to ask you this. Can you please explain to us the difference in the approach of the administration and the members of the Congress who are supportive of this bill, the Armenian Genocide Delegation, or is there any difference between the administration and the members of the Congress who are supporting Resolution 106?

Assistant Secretary Fried: There is a huge difference. We oppose the bill. We think it is a bad idea that will do nothing to improve Turkish-Armenian relations, it will do nothing to advance reconciliation between Turks and Armenians over the terrible events of 1915, and it will not do anything to advance American interests. We think the bill is a bad idea. We have said so. President Bush, Secretary Rice, Under Secretary Burns, Ambassador Wilson and I have all spoken to members of Congress about this and all former living U.S. Secretaries of State have come out against this bill in writing including Secretary Albright, Secretary Christopher. Former Defense Secretaries have come out, including Bill Cohen and Bill Perry who worked for President Clinton.

So there is bipartisan opposition to this bill among some very senior people. So we oppose it and we will continue to.

TRT Television: And Armenian Foreign Minister Vartan Oskanian say the ones who oppose the bill have been bought into Turkish manipulation. Have you?

Assistant Secretary Fried: No. We are perfectly capable of making our own decisions.

I understand there are people on the other side of this question and it is also true that there were terrible things that happened in 1915 and after. Those are historical facts. And the United States government doesn't deny them and I don't believe Turkey does either. But the question is not whether terrible things happened. We know they did. The question is does this bill help advance historical truth, understanding, or better relations between Turkey and Armenia, and it does not.

TRT Television: I know usually officials do not appreciate to be asked hypothetical questions, but I'll try.

Assistant Secretary Fried: Go ahead and try.

TRT Television: If Turkey were to hypothetically speaking accept the allegations, would it have prevented the Armenian troops massacres in Hajala 15 years ago, or would it make a difference in Darfur tomorrow?

Assistant Secretary Fried: The way you've put the question allows me to say something which is it's important for Turkey and Armenia to talk about the terrible events that occurred. Every nation has dark spots including the United States. What can we say about slavery or the treatment of American Indians, or the treatment of Japanese-Americans in World War II. These were bad things. Terrible things. We committed them, and as an honest nation we've come to terms with our history. That's what honest nations have to do. But it wasn't legislation passed by a foreign parliament which got America to do the right thing. That's why we think that reconciliation should come from within the society. We support this process of reconciliation. There are Turks and Armenians who have worked on it, and that's the way to go. We don't think the legislation will help.

TRT Television: I think this is the longest answer to any hypothetical question so I'll try one more.

If the House passes the bill, what do you think the Turkish government's response will be?

Assistant Secretary Fried: I have --

TRT Television: -- U.S.-Turkey relations.

Assistant Secretary Fried: I can't possibly answer that. We hope that we defeat the bill. I know there will be people in Turkey who will be angry but I think the Turks will recognize that they have long term interests. I hope they will not do anything to limit their own options for the future. But look, that's a hypothetical. Today, tomorrow, we're concentrating on defeating the bill.

TRT Television: Are you going to take any security measures?

Assistant Secretary Fried: I don't want to comment on that.

TRT Television: -- the --

Assistant Secretary Fried: I don't want to comment on any of this except to say right now, working with Ambassador Wilson, we're trying to defeat this bill and explain why it's not a good thing.

TRT Television: This comes at a time when the Kurdistan Workers Party, PKK terrorists, increased their attacks in Turkey, just within the last two weeks Turks have lost 27 of their citizens. There is a general public perception about the U.S. policies in the region, that it has a sinister plan on different ethnic groups…

Assistant Secretary Fried: Wrong.

TRT Television: which at the end targets Turkish sovereignty.

Assistant Secretary Fried: Wrong.

TRT Television: And when they look at -- And they are deeply disappointed of the U.S. inaction against the PKK. Also now this bill coming at the Congress. Also in between the firm warnings of the U.S. not to carry out a cross-border operation. When they all add up these they say, the Turkish perception goes along in essence that this is the evidence.

Assistant Secretary Fried: There is no --

TRT Television: What is your response, Ambassador?

Assistant Secretary Fried: We were outraged and disgusted by the PKK attacks, and I first want to express that but also condolences to the families. We have all had our losses to terrorists. Americans, Turks, people of many other nations. So the first thing I have to do is condemn terrorism in general and the PKK terrorists in particular. We don't help them, we fight them. Some Turks even remember our cooperation. Mr. Ocalan is in a Turkish prison and it was a Turkish operation that got him, but we're glad he's in custody right now.

We want to do more with Turkey but there is no truth whatsoever to some of these fantastic allegations. We want to see a strong Turkey with a strong economy, modernizing, joining the European Union, at peace with itself and its neighbors, all of them. We see Turkey as a strategic partner in the world. There's no question about that. There's no question that we want to see an Iraq that is functional, more at peace than it is today, and united. We have spoken strongly to the Iraqi government and the Kurdish regional authorities and urged that they do more to stop the PKK from attacking their neighbor and we will continue to push them. We will continue to work with Turkey until Turkey does not feel threatened by the PKK.

TRT Television: Since the toppling of Saddam Hussein PKK attacks are hurting Turkey. The Turkish public opinion has reached a point where words really do not solve our problems. We want action. And today the Turkish Foreign Ministry has a lengthy meeting on how to fight this terrorism. After a three and a half hour meeting the Prime Minister's office announced that they are going to start preparing for a cross-border operation. What's your take on it, Ambassador?

Assistant Secretary Fried: We want to work with Turkey to stop PKK attacks on Turkey. There are a number of ways we can do this. Turkey and Iraq recently concluded a Memorandum of Understanding on counter-terrorist cooperation. I think that's the ticket. That's the way to go. Work with Iraq and work together and work with us against the PKK.

TRT Television: It does not include the hot pursuit issue which is something that the Turkish side wanted, and the Turkish public opinion is saying that still the U.S. is backing the Iraqi Kurds and this is not a good fate of NATO allies.

Assistant Secretary Fried: We do not think that the Iraqi government or the Kurdistan regional government has done all it could and we think they should do more. We've said so. This isn't a secret. We hope Turkey and we can work with the President, Prime Minister of Iraq and the Kurdish regional government, Mrs. Talibani, Barzani, to make more progress. But they're not behind these PKK attacks. They are allies and friends and we want to build on that partnership.

Turkish frustration is understandable. It just is. It's understandable that people would react in anger to terrorist attacks. We Americans do. We need to be smart in the way we go after the terrorists.

TRT Television: Ambassador, in a few sentences, to make it clear in the Turkish public perception, why should Turkey not carry any cross-border operation? How is it going to hurt Turkish interests, or is it going to hurt U.S. interests?

Assistant Secretary Fried: The question is not what makes you feel good today but what works. Turkey has conducted cross-border attacks in the past and the question is, does it work? What's the best way to deal with the PKK? Not for tomorrow's headlines in the newspapers, but to deal with it in a real way. It seems to me that there are a combination of things that can be done. We want to work with Turkey. It involves all of our assets working together and we intend to do our best.

TRT Television: What's your understanding of the Turkish government's performance?

Assistant Secretary Fried: In general or PKK?

TRT Television: On dealing with the PKK issue.

Assistant Secretary Fried: It's a very frustrating one. The last thing I will do is be critical. I'm not at all. Turkey faces a dangerous, difficult enemy and this is not easy. We want to work with Turkey. It's in a tough place. And Turkish frustration is understandable. We have to be smart and we have to do more.

TRT Television: If I may close this interview with a question not related to you, within your capacity as an officer, but just as an American.

Assistant Secretary Fried: Sure.

TRT Television: Would you please be kind enough to convey the approaches or the strong desire among the American public to have the Armenian genocide allegation be accepted? When we as Turkish citizens, not as a journalist but as an ordinary Turkish individual, I do observe that there is no question about whether the genocide has taken place or not. It is generally accepted in the United States. Where in Turkey it is generally accepted that, let's look at this history all together. We think that massacre has taken place but it's not only the Armenians, but also many Muslims, Anatolia Muslims have also been killed. And when you look at it, it is something that we do not see here in the U.S.. That it's not being discussed at all.

Why do you think that this side of Turkey has not find any voice among the American people? Who is missing the dialogue or communication link between the two nations?

Assistant Secretary Fried: Oh, that's a hard question because it is a fact that terrible things happened. Up to a million and a half Armenians were killed or forced into exile. Those are facts. The United States and the United States government do not deny anything. It's also true that the breakup of the Ottoman Empire in its kind of last phase was a terrible one and terrible things happened. There were atrocities, there were massacres, there was killing, there was a war, and the Turkish government is right when it suggests that historians need to look at this.

I think that the way ahead is for Turkey, like all honest governments dealing with the dark spots of its history needs to do what we did, we Americans did dealing with the dark spots of our history. Face up to it and recognize that admitting bad things in your past doesn't make you a bad nation. It makes you an honest one. That's an American lesson.

TRT Television: The Library of Congress has records of Armenian massacres between 1914 and 1920 of 2.5 million Armenian Muslim population. When we are talking about war time evidently we are really talking about many precious lives being lost. Not only from one side, but from both sides. Why is it not an issue for the U.S. State Department to also talk about the losses in Anatolia or in Azerbaijan of the Muslims?

Assistant Secretary Fried: Well, we speak about history carefully because we're government bureaucrats, and after all, Turkey has made the point that governments shouldn't try to get into history as a matter of policy. So when you ask me to get into history as a government bureaucrat I have to be careful.

But look, your point and the point of the Turkish government is that historians should deal with this, but deal with it honestly. There shouldn't be any taboo about dealing with these issues. No one should be hauled up on charges for having talked about history. Not anywhere. Not in France -- they have a law, as you know; not in Turkey, Article 301; not anywhere. People have to discuss this in a way that is open and honest and serious, and that's painful.

Look, in my lifetime it was still painful to talk about putting Japanese-Americans in internment camps. It was embarrassing. It was terrible what we did. We fought World War II for freedom and yet we did this to our own people because they were Japanese? It's a terrible thing. But you have to face up to your history. Everyone does. All sides.

So an honest historical discussion is what's needed, but honest also means painful.

TRT Television: Thank you, Ambassador.

Assistant Secretary Fried: My pleasure.

TRT Television: It's been a great pleasure for us, thank you.

Assistant Secretary Fried: Likewise.