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Sexism is so ingrained in our language, behavior, institutions and life that it sometimes has become unrecognizable by some, including liberals and feminists who unintentionally hold some sexist beliefs and engage in some sexist behavior. This is because the institutionalized sexism is then used to socialize everyone. The US should recognize that women have a human right to live a life free of sexism. Instead, a LexisNexis search shows that even the  US Supreme Court has only ever used the word "sexism" or "sexist" in 10 cases.  In fact, some lower courts have characterized sexism as a mere "trendy social ideology". It is not surprising then that the first reaction of some men accused of sexism is that the woman is overreacting when our society generally finds sexism to be trivial or harmless. However, research has shown that in some forms of sexism, there is no such thing as trivial or harmless. This diary explains why.  

How ingrained is sexism? Please take this sexism test. Not saying it provides an accurate measurement of sexism, but does raise some interesting perspectives.

A special feminisms diary will be posted tomorrow to present part 2, which addresses some of the sexism memes used by politicians and society to deprive women of their human rights.

Sexism Defined

Sexism is defined as  discrimination, hatred or "systemic differentiations based on the sex of the individuals" and includes the following:

  • The belief that one gender is superior to or more valuable than the other;
  • Female or male chauvinism;
  • The attitude of misogyny (hatred of females) or misandry (hatred of males);
  • The attitude of imposing a limited and/or false notion of masculinity on males and a limited and/or false notion of femininity on females, or vice versa, and,
  • A feeling of distrust towards the opposite sex, most frequently operating at unconscious level.

This definition includes a range of prejudicial attitudes from the seemingly more benign distrust to the most repugnant and invidious misogyny. This is important because for years sexism discussions focused on a man's hatred of women and generally limited sexism to express actions or words that were harmful, such as harassment, rape, abuse and murder.  However, some of the more insidious sexism is based not on hostility toward women, but on a false benevolence that erroneously gives the appearance of kind motivations that some may assume could not be harmful.

Types of Sexism: Hostile and False Benevolence

Glick and Fiske (1996) recognized that both hostile and benevolent prejudices coexisted in sexism.
The Glick/Fiske model of ambivalent sexism or prejudice explains the simultaneous and contradictory prejudices of hostile and benevolent sexism and why elimination of sexism requires ending both. A sexist may be hostile to women he sees as "rejecting conventional gender roles and trying to 'usurp' men's power." As for women who conform to expected roles, she is "rewarded" with benevolent sexism of "protective, affectionate, but patronizing attitudes" that men use to maintain power and control.

In hostile sexism, men have negative, antagonistic attitudes (anger, antipathy, resentment, hatred etc) and behaviors toward women based on the belief that women are usurping men's power.  
Hostile sexism is manifested by hatred, aggression, violence and victimization of women by words and/or conduct that is based on 3 underlying sources or motivations:

  1.  Dominative paternalism is the belief that men should have power over women and so the hostile sexist seeks to dominate and control women, who are viewed as children.
  1.  Competitive gender differentiation is the belief that women are inferior and less competent than men. This sexist will "perceive, magnify, and generalize differences between the sexes" in order to devalue women.
  1.  Hostile heterosexuality is the belief that women's sexuality is a dangerous obstacle to men's rightful place of higher status and power.  Sex is viewed as a resource in which women have the role of "adversarial gatekeepers." This sexist is angry at "women for using sexual attraction to manipulate or 'toy' with men."

In short, the hostile sexist has essentially created this delusional power struggle to justify sexism against women. It is a power struggle where men fear that women are trying to control men by "feminist ideology or sexual seduction" so men create "hostile ideologies concerning the inferiority" of women and express an "overt animosity toward women."

This creates a conflict in a society in which men dominate all institutions, whether it is social, economic, political, governmental, legal or religious.

Benevolent sexism is based on men cherishing or protecting women based upon gender inequality and patronizing stereotypes. It is a sexism based on protective paternalism and on "a chivalrous attitude toward women that feels favorable but is actually sexist because it casts women as weak creatures in need of men's protection."  

Benevolent sexism is comprised of 3 underlying sources or motivations:

  1.  Protective paternalism is the belief that men must protect and cherish women similar to how a parent will protect and help his/her child.
  1. Complementary gender differentiation is the belief that women are better than men but only in traditional gender roles.  
  1.  Intimate heterosexuality is the belief that true happiness in life can only be obtained when romantically involved with women. Heterosexual intimacy "comprises powerful feelings of personal need, intense affection and longing for, and a highly admiring or worshipful view of women."

In benevolent sexism, a man's attitude toward women is based on sexist stereotypes of women in traditional, restrictive roles which the man personally views as positive because he does not view his beliefs as patronizing. This man adheres to a chivalrous ideology of protection and affection for women who accept conventional roles of dependence upon men.  Dominance over women is obtained by this false benevolence rather than hostility.  

The danger is that benevolent sexism is generally socially accepted but research has shown it is an insidious and powerful oppressive force just like hostile sexism.  Women are more likely than men to reject hostile sexism, but many women accept benevolent sexism.

The benevolent sexism is accepted because it "appears" to have on its face a favorable view of women. Examples of benevolent sexism include "coddling women, putting them on pedestals, valuing their 'fragility' above their strength, their 'devotion to family' above their independence, etc."  

This sexism is a false benevolence because the words or conduct on their face may seem "harmless, noble, or even romantic."  But, if you look at the underlying assumptions or motivations, this sexism is used to keep "women in their place" by denying rights and opportunities.  It is men protecting women by providing limited rights to only those women who choose traditional roles. For example, legislation that favors women in property settlements or family law is oftentimes benevolent sexism.

Indeed, on its face, benevolent sexism may seem beneficial to women if considered in isolation. But, the same rules and laws that protect some women based on benevolent sexism also restrict all women. For example, it is benevolent sexism that men should be the family's "breadwinner," which some women may favor. However, this sexist "breadwinner" rule is still used by employers today to justify higher pay for men who perform the same work as women, even when the woman just happens to be a better worker.  

Moreover, the effects can be devastating and insidious because benevolent sexism is often framed in a covert manner to discriminate against women:

"Benevolent justifications for discrimination (e.g., "Women should forego a career because they excel at childcare") are more likely to be accepted than hostile justifications (e.g., "Women should forego a career because they lack ability")."

In addition to the direct harm of covert sexism against women, the linkage between hostile and benevolent sexism renders it less likely that hostile sexism can be eliminated without also wiping out benevolent sexism:

Glick and Fiske found that both types of sexism can, and generally do, coexist. Men who exhibit signs of benevolent sexism also tend to exhibit signs of hostile sexism. This is part of the reason that benevolent sexism may not be as harmless as it seems: it is clearly linked to the more injurious hostile sexism. This may help explain why sexism is still so prevalent in our society. Since the two are related, we can't eliminate the one without the other. Allowing benevolent sexism to remain may be forcing hostile sexism to stay, too.

Thus, sexism can be both hostile and "benevolent." Both are oppressive. Both are used to maintain and legitimize sexism in all of our institutions. Both are based on men's power and dominance over women.

Covert Sexism Sham & Misogynistic Snowballing

The institutionalization of sexism has created two separate but interrelated devastating phenomena that ensure that some forms of sexism will never be harmless or trivial:  The covert sexism sham and misogynistic snowballing.

In the covert sexism sham, sexist conduct is legitimized by desensitizing or trivializing a woman's human right to a life without sexism.  The first step is institutionalization of sexism as appropriate conduct. Many do not see their conduct or statements as sexist because sexism has become ingrained into our institutions – in our schools, churches, government, courts, politics, education, MSM, TV shows, video games, social norms, jokes, and movies. The institutionalized sexism becomes so commonplace or ordinary that it is either socially accepted as permissible sexism or it is redefined as nonsexist.  In either case, the institutionalized sexism then becomes part of the norms used to socialize Americans. And so the sexism is recycled. The result is that even liberals and feminists may unintentionally hold some sexist beliefs because of socialization.

This institutionalization transforms sexism into nonsexism only at a facial level for appearance sake, but does not eliminate the sexism and the deleterious consequences of sexism. The conduct and/or words remain sexist, but society simply no longer recognizes as sexist.  Or, we may recognize it as a sexism "technicality" in which we rationalize that the sexism is just so harmless or trivial that it should be ignored. How often how you heard, "Well, yes, technically it is sexist, but, hey, lighten up!"

A good example of the covert sexism sham is the pictures below illustrating the objectification of women. There is a new trend of porno-chic advertising that tries to make submissive women, physical violence, and abuse of women appear so normal that it is used to sell ordinary items like perfumes and purses. What does a picture of a battered woman have to do with selling a purse? These ads show one example of our institutions attempting to legitimize sexism when corporate America believes that suggesting violence against women (rape, torture, murder, and beatings) is a great asset that should be used to sell products. How many Americans would remain silent if these ad campaigns used pictures of African-Americans who had been lynched and hanging from trees in similar perverted ads? It is noteworthy that in 2001 the French reacted to porno-chic ads of "purely sexual, submissive or abused women" by public debate in the press, a report commissioned by the government discussing new laws to regulate, public boycott of brands, and heckling of professionals while in the US we do not even bat an eyelash.

The second phenomenon is misogynistic snowballing. The range of sexist prejudices can be viewed as a continuum where feelings of hatred, hostility and violence against women progresses by degree or intensity from low to high levels. Whether sexism is expressed by words, conduct or pictures, acceptance of sexism at one level can lead to increased levels of hatred, hostility and violence against women.

Research has found that "exposure to media depicting women in degrading and subordinate situations, even if not explicitly sexual or violent in nature, will lead to increased violent behavior of men against women in society."  That is, "males exposed to ads where females are portrayed as sex objects are more accepting of rape-supportive attitudes and predictive of subjective levels of exploitation."

One way to visualize this misogynistic snowballing is to look at a variety of commercial ads that illustrate the objectification process of women. Similar to other forms of sexism, objectification involves different levels of prejudice and hostility against women. These photos show how women are objectified by pictures that ignore our personal capabilities in favor of physical beauty or sex appeal in order to render women powerless and subordinated to men. There are different levels of objectification which then lead to dehumanization of women. Once women are dehumanized into mere property, then it may be easier for some men to physically abuse "their" property in order to maintain control.

While these pictures are used to illustrate the misogynistic snowballing of different levels of hostility against women in the context of objectification, words or conduct could easily replace the pictures. The point is that sexism involves different levels or degrees of prejudice and how acceptance at one level of seemingly "benign" sexism may then be used as a stepping stone to a more hostile level of sexism.

People like to see beautiful men and women in ads, movies etc. whether they be fully clothed, partially clothed or naked.  That's fine.

Objectification of women is different.

At the first level, women are portrayed as sex objects to be coveted and treasured as long as we are also dominated and controlled by men:




Source:  Gender Ad.Com


Source:  Gender Ad.Com

Is it trivial to criticize pictures, words or conduct that objectify women as sex tools controlled by men? What about Jay Leno's joke about how men may control the size of a woman's breasts until they explode?

Product #3: Breast implants attached to The Clapper. Just clap—and they inflate!  The audience was so thrilled with this hilarious Product of Tomorrow that they applauded wildly...thereby causing the implants to explode! Ha ha ha ha ha! Isn’t that hilarious? The best part was the close-up of the disembodied boobs blown to pieces.

If we remain silent, then we are part of the social acceptance of sexism.

At the second level, the hostility against women is more elevated as women are partially dehumanized by objectification:


Source:  Gender Ad.Com


Source:  Gender Ad.Com


Source:  Gender Ad.Com


Source:  Gender Ad.Com

Partial objectification -- whether by pictures, words, or conduct -- expresses the inferiority of women, who are no different from suitcases, phones, tables or even the handy little plumb-bob tool, which of course do not have brains, emotions or rights that should be respected or recognized.

At the third level, women have left the world of human beings and now are literally objects:


Source:  Gender Ad.Com

Source:  Gender Ad.Com

Source:  Gender Ad.Com

Now that women are no longer human beings, but mere objects to be owned or tossed away, some men feel it is ok to batter them into submission or control them by rape, torture or murder:


Source:  Gender Ad.Com

Source:  Gender Ad.Com

Source:  Gender Ad.Com

Source:  Gender Ad.Com

Source:  Gender Ad.Com



Source:  Gender Ad.Com

There is also porno-chic "artwork" that objectifies women by transforming women into furniture like chandeliers

or a table and chair:

The result of sexism is devastating consequences for women: Violence against women, unequal pay, unequal treatment, unequal opportunities, and unequal life spans as women are murdered by domestic abusers and "honor" killings. The result is that women are denied human rights and constitutional rights in the name of sexism.

The result is that women may lead a life full of daily restrictions: Be careful of what you say, or you may be shunned by your friends, co-workers or employers; Be careful what you wear, so that you do not cause a man to rape you or sexually harass you; Be careful of where you live, work, exercise, walk or socialize, so you will not be victimized; Be careful to hide your gender online so that men will not harass or intimidate you by stalking. The list is endless.

It is time for all who believe in a woman's human right to a life without hostility and prejudice to speak out, even when the sexism appears trivial or harmless.

Feminisms is a series of weekly feminist diaries. My fellow feminists and I decided to start our own for several purposes: we wanted a place to chat with each other, we felt it was important to both share our own stories and learn from others’, and we hoped to introduce to the community a better understanding of what feminism is about.
Needless to say, we expect disagreements to arise. We have all had different experiences in life, so while we share the same labels, we don’t necessarily share the same definitions. Hopefully, we can all be patient and civil with each other, and remember that, ultimately, we’re all on the same side.

Tomorrow, a special Thursday Feminisms will post part 2, which shows how this sexism is used in various memes by politicians and society.

Originally posted to Patriot Daily News Clearinghouse on Wed Jun 27, 2007 at 05:43 PM PDT.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Excellent, fantastic, wonderful diary. (24+ / 0-)

    As for the survey, I've never answered one with so many "strongly agree" and "strongly disagree" responses.

    Those ads are fucking disgusting.  There are also plenty at About Face.

    I'll try to be more coherent later, but this was just a great diary, so I'm still processing. :)

    Any force that tries to make you feel shame for being who you are...is a form of tyranny... And it must be rejected, resisted, and defeated. ~Al Gore

    by Sinister Rae on Wed Jun 27, 2007 at 05:48:23 PM PDT

  •  Tragically excellent post (12+ / 0-)

    Those ads are chilling. Jean Kilbourne is probably the best commentator on women and ads.

    And, it's funny, but people who think they think sex doesn't matter still ask, without a thought, when someone has a baby: "Is it a boy or a girl?"

    "We are the people who run this country. We are the deciders." Molly Ivins

    by VetGrl on Wed Jun 27, 2007 at 05:48:24 PM PDT

    •  Well, that's likely (8+ / 0-)

      because they don't want to assume incorrectly; I've had a few times where I've said, "Oh, she's adorable!" to which the parents (diplomatically) reply, "Yes, we're very proud of him..." lol

      •  The point is that it matters so much ... (7+ / 0-)

        I can talk about this better in person, but what, really, is the big deal if someone mistakes the sex of a baby? Why, really, should parents get their knickers in a knot if someone makes the wrong guess?

        It's matters because we accord such different treatment to boys and girls, then to men and women.

        And it starts from the instant the kid emerges on the scene, even sooner with ultrasound. The babies in the hospital are usually labeled as boys or girls. With the babies it seems harmless enough (unless you have relatives, like me, who insisted on buying nothing but pink stuff when my daughter was born, to the point my house looked like the inside of a PeptoBismol bottle), but it's also obvious to the point of funny how important sex is. Everyone should pay attention next time someone you know has a baby and notice how often discovering the sex is the first point of inquiry.

        "We are the people who run this country. We are the deciders." Molly Ivins

        by VetGrl on Wed Jun 27, 2007 at 06:36:22 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Partly b/c our language is structured that way (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Odysseus, tryptamine

          It's at least partly because our language is structured that way with the pronouns. If our language was structured so that different pronouns referred to people with blond hair vs brown hair, the first thing people would ask was what color hair the baby had.

          It's also true that for most people gender still defines what one can do with one's life.

          It's also just conversation. There's not many things you can ask about a baby that will be true for the rest of its life.

          A word after a word after a word is power. -- Margaret Atwood

          by tmo on Wed Jun 27, 2007 at 06:55:37 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Ummmmmm, do you think (0+ / 0-)

        that the actual, factual, objective existence of biological sex is sexist?  I am, biologically, a male and, culturally, a man.  The latter, cultural, designation of gender gets a bit tricky of course, since it's not 100% equated with biological sex.  

        But to suggest that there is a problem with asking about a baby's sex is -- to me at least -- to suggest that the proper, non-sexist attitude is to be unconcerned about sex and gender designations.  To treat those characteristics as if they were totally uninteresting.

        That's the strawman the RWNM generally constructs of femisnists (that is, when it's not explicitly invoking the spectre of the vagina dentata), and it behooves progressive feminists to avoid playing to the stereotype that feminism seeks to eliminate all gender distinctions.

        Unless of course you think feminism should be doing that, in which case I invite to to share your views about why that would be a good course.

        •  First, (2+ / 0-)

          I frankly don't give a crap what stereotype I'm "playing into".  It isn't my responsibility to avoid reinforcing someone else's stupid stereotypes, it's their responsibility to avoid stereotypes in the first place.

          Second, there have been plenty of studies (I'm sure plf515 could point you to a few) about how gender role assignation begins at (or even before) birth, thus automatically forcing the child into some version of that role.  Gender roles are, by nature, limiting, so of course it would be good to remove every possible restriction from a child and let them grow up as themselves instead of a member of only one, necessarily limiting gender.

          Class & Labor - Tues. nights, Feminisms Wed. nights

          by tryptamine on Wed Jun 27, 2007 at 10:55:50 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  yeah, sorry (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            tryptamine

            about the "behooving" bit.  somehow found myself on a high horse last night but fortunately got rid of it today.  

            still, not sure i agree with your argument about the desirability of totally eliminating gender -- though, to be clear, i do agree with the contention that the assignment of gender roles begins at or before birth.

            i guess for me the question comes down to whether the problem is with gender qua gender, or with the differential in the power assigned to each -- a lot to men, considerably less to women, and virtually none to intersex.  i see the problem as the power differential, while others reasonably see gender as necessarliy conatining a power imbalance and therefore argue for the total elimination of the category itself.

            a question though: don't you think that if gender were eliminated as a social construct some other arbitrary category would become the basis for the unequal distribution of power?  from my point of view, its best to go after the mechanisms for power distribution.

            anyway, great diary, fantastic debate, sorry if i ruffled feathers.

            •  Thanks for replying. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              srkp23

              And I should apologize too.  I initially thought you were just a late night sexist thread-crasher (we get a few of those, unfortunately) but I see now that you had good intentions.  I should have been a little more careful myself.

              Honestly, I haven't gotten that far yet; I'm still stuck at "there's something wrong with this whole gender thing", and throwing what valuable wisdom I find along the way into the stew.  I'm tempted to say that it is just the power differential but at the same time, I also hate that people get stuffed into boxes that they don't necessarily fit into and that it is often so treacherous to step outside of.  But I still haven't answered for myself personally whether separate can be equal or not.

              Class & Labor - Tues. nights, Feminisms Wed. nights

              by tryptamine on Thu Jun 28, 2007 at 09:48:31 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

    •  Well, there aren't all THAT many questions to ask (11+ / 0-)

      about a newborn.

      Does he/she/it have all ten fingers?

      "People that are really very weird can get into sensitive positions and have a tremendous impact on history."
      - J. Danforth Quayle

      by davewill on Wed Jun 27, 2007 at 06:14:44 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  A great project (13+ / 0-)

    for anyone with Photoshop expertise would be to take some of these images and re-create them using male images -- then post them in strategic areas in some of the larger cities where these female ads might be seen (New York, San Francisco, LA, Miami, etc.) and see what kind of reaction they bring.

    I think that we've become sort of deadened to these sorts of images...it takes someone to put a lot of them in one place and wake us up a bit. Thanks.

  •  Great diary. (10+ / 0-)

    I scored a zero and a 0.18. Not sure how I got the .18, though I know I have some benevolent sexisms in me. For instance, men don't know where things are. They just don't.

    •  Yes, I skated too (8+ / 0-)

      my scores weren't quite as good as yours, but pretty close.  However, I can think of some "benevolent" questions about men that would have sent mine much higher :).  

      The difference is one of power. Personal prejudices don't constitute an "ism".  As the diarist notes very well, it's the institutionalization  of these attitudes throughout our culture that is destructive.

      •  The personal is still political, though. (2+ / 0-)

        Although it's true that an individual bias is not the same oppressive force as institutionalized "isms," institutions are made of individual people.  When we act out cultural scripts that reinforce the passive/weak/submissive roles of women, we take part in the institution of sexism.

        •  very true (3+ / 0-)

          my personal mea culpa, however, was about a few  beliefs I have about the limitations of men. If women were in power in our society, I could rightly be called sexist for some of these.  Until that day, I'll just keep trying to live by the idea that sexism is destructive to all of us.

          And hope that before I die, the "Barbie pink" aisle will disappear from the toy stores, women will get equal pay for their work, and we'll have elected a woman as President.  Maybe not this time, but once in 250 years of democracy would be be really nice.  

          •  Shared vision, there. (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            tryptamine, maryru, Themistoclea

            I think it's true that people who are members of privileged groups have a hard time taking the perspective of non-members.  In this regard, men in Western society are at a distinct disadvantage-- they have been enculturated to a kind of blindness towards half of humanity.  It's very limiting, I think.

            I don't think it's a biologically determined characteristic, though, or an inevitability.  Just like Anglo White people can sometimes make a reasonable start at recognizing their own manifestations of racism, men can recognize their manifestations of sexism.

            I have a big hairy husband and two sons.  I can't be a gender essentialist.  I've built my life around the assumption that men are not infantile pig-dogs, but fully human people who are exactly as capable of both reason and adult emotional function as women.

            It means I can't indulge in some really juicy "men" jokes (and I know some really good ones).  But it also means that I will never, ever excuse asshole behavior as some inevitable, irresistable dogwhistle response that only men have.  All competent adult human beings are equally responsible for their own behavior.

          •  tee hee men are SUCH piggys... aren't they? (0+ / 0-)

            Maryru,

            Do you really thik its possible to eliminate the institutionalized sexism you mention in your second paragraph (unequal pay, unequal political representation) if you heap scorn on a strong potential partner in the struggle?  Men don't monolithically conform to the myth that they're cute but difficult to train, any more than women do to the myth that they're more in tune with the universe and immune to the seductions of power.  

            And no amount of smiley-faced nods n' winks or empty mea culpa's will change the very real possibility that your attitude will cause you to overlook or alienate people who would otherwise support you.  (I say empty because in the very same para you seem to imply that your attitude is justified so long as men are in power.)

            •  That's not how I read her post at all. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              jessical

              I read it as "Yes, I admit that I can be sexist against men, but I try not to be, and recognize that it isn't a good thing."

              Class & Labor - Tues. nights, Feminisms Wed. nights

              by tryptamine on Wed Jun 27, 2007 at 10:36:44 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Thanks (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                tryptamine

                That's how I meant it. And a bit tongue-in-cheek, like if that survey had followed the question about opening doors for women with one about men putting down the toilet seat, I would have scored lower.

                Not to dilute the real subject of the diary, about which I feel very strongly. It just seemed to be a bit of push poll.

            •  jfaustus (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              tryptamine

              no tee hees intended and my mea culpa was real; sorry if it that didn't come across in a brief comment.

              I was just acknowledging that my very good score on the "sexism quiz" could have gone down if it had probed more deeply in the other direction.

              I've got some personal prejudices, but they're pretty minor and informed by the knowledge of how men are affected by our patriarchal system.

              They still exist, though, and being honest about that and analyzing the origin is a critical step.

              I've lived my life in a society ruled by men, and have worked to bring about more equality.  No illusions about inherent superiority based on gender, or how hard & long the road to real change has been. I stand by my statement that sexism is destructive for all of us.

              •  fair enough (0+ / 0-)

                maryru-

                glad to see that i misinterpreted -- a constant hazard, as you say, with brief comments.  and i totally agree that sexism in all its forms is destructive to all of us.  i applaud this diary for highlighting 'benevolent' sexism, and you for your honesty.  in the end, it's pretty hard for personal prejudices to live for very long once we acknowledge them.  

                and i don't have a score to share, since i saw the same thing that you did -- not a great survey -- and just started playing around with the answers to see what was rated what.  interestingly, i wasn't able to make it come out 0.0, although I didn't try all that hard.  the closest I got was 0.0, 0.45 (or so).

  •  I took the quiz... (19+ / 0-)

    Hostile Sexism Score: 0.00
    Benevolent Sexism Score: 0.09

    I think my benevolent score went down a bit since the last time I took it, but I can't remember.

  •  All gender stuff aside... (16+ / 0-)

    this is a tour de force of a diary - well done, PD!  I'm looking forward to tomorrow's edition!  :)

  •  Curious. (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    tryptamine, Ice Blue, LithiumCola

    The attitude of imposing a limited and/or false notion of masculinity on male

    Isn't up to a man to decide what constitutes masculinity? I wasn't aware of a prescribed socially acceptable version, many people have different ideas of what it entails.

    chivalrous attitude toward women that feels favorable but is actually sexist because it casts women as weak creatures in need of men's protection."  

    I guess I'm a sexist, I was raced with the idea that chivalry is a virtue not a vice. Obviously not all women need protection, but to generalize so...

    I will be the first to admit I'm out of my depth here, most of my information comes in form of philosophical discussions with my friend Jane.

    Don't women who choose to place themselves in a position where their bodies are used in sexually provocative ways, have an inherent right to do this?

    Isn't the right of control over their own body absolute?

    Discussing of gender issues is a good thing, it shows were advancing as a culture and people. Still we can't allow ourselves to become to hypersensitive to any aspect of the discussion.

    "The middle of the road is all of the usable surface. The extremes, right and left, are in the gutters." --Dwight D. Eisenhower

    by BlueDogD on Wed Jun 27, 2007 at 06:04:26 PM PDT

    •  actually... (12+ / 0-)

      Isn't up to a man to decide what constitutes masculinity? I wasn't aware of a prescribed socially acceptable version, many people have different ideas of what it entails.

      I can probably answer that question somewhat.

      Someone once posted a question on a different forum (which I will not pimp, lol) as to why men are not allowed to cry. The answers were startling...while some men (including myself) were very forthcoming about how many times we've wept publicly, quite a few women said that a man crying made them feel nervous or afraid, that it was somehow unnerving to see a man break down into tears.

      And yet, isn't the ability to cry a very human trait? It's not the exclusive domain of women, we know that. And yet men are ridiculed, laughed at, and derided if they cry. Those of us who saw the brilliant George C. Scott in the movie Patton slap around a young soldier for crying will understand.

      So yeah, there are false preconceptions of masculinity being imposed on men from outside, just as there are false preconceptions of femininity being imposed from outside.

      (1) D.I.E.B.O.L.D.: Decisive In Elections By Ousting Liberal Democrats.
      (2) R.A.T.S.: Roberts, Alito, Thomas, Scalia.
      (3) -8.75, -8.10

      by Archangel on Wed Jun 27, 2007 at 06:17:10 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Response. (2+ / 0-)

        And yet, isn't the ability to cry a very human trait? It's not the exclusive domain of women, we know that. And yet men are ridiculed, laughed at, and derided if they cry. Those of us who saw the brilliant George C. Scott in the movie Patton slap around a young soldier for crying will understand.

        Humans will always ridicule each other for something, I accept this as a human failing.

        I was raised with the maxim that men don't cry, my own personal embrace of stoicism as a life philosophy has only furthered this belief.

        I accept that others maybe different, but I'm worried that those at the forefront of any social movement, are simply trying to impose their own version of masculinity, albeit a more softer one in alignment with their ideological views.

        So yeah, there are false preconceptions of masculinity being imposed on men from outside, just as there are false preconceptions of femininity being imposed from outside.

        Agreed, but I don't think there is a universal standard that can be applied to everyone. It comes down to personal choice.

        "The middle of the road is all of the usable surface. The extremes, right and left, are in the gutters." --Dwight D. Eisenhower

        by BlueDogD on Wed Jun 27, 2007 at 06:23:56 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Yes. (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      tryptamine, Elise, jessical

      Don't women who choose to place themselves in a position where their bodies are used in sexually provocative ways, have an inherent right to do this?

      But the existence of that right has nothing, as such, to do with sexism.

      "Space. It seems to go on and on forever. But then you get to the end and a gorilla starts throwing barrels at you." -- Fry, Futurama

      by LithiumCola on Wed Jun 27, 2007 at 06:26:01 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Quiz (7+ / 0-)

    Hostile: 0.73
    Benevolent: 1.18

    I had to stop and think about some of those questions, such as the one about rescuing women before men. My answer was rescue the woman first. I never thought about that side of sexism before.

  •  great diary (10+ / 0-)

    but as always in such instances, I'm highly bothered by the idea that chivalry is sexism.

    I'd like the question resolved once and for all--if I go out of my way to hold the door open for a woman I don't know, is that sexist or not?

    Honestly, I think this:

    Intimate heterosexuality is the belief that true happiness in life can only be obtained when romantically involved with women. Heterosexual intimacy "comprises powerful feelings of personal need, intense affection and longing for, and a highly admiring or worshipful view of women."

    applies to me a little bit, given the emotional value I place on my relationship.  Does that make me sexist?  I hardly see how.

    oops. I hope the gate wasn't too expensive.

    The Nexus has you.

    by Dante Atkins on Wed Jun 27, 2007 at 06:06:47 PM PDT

    •  My question would be- do you go out of your way (21+ / 0-)

      to hold the door open for everyone regardless of their gender...

      If you do, then it isn't sexist, it's just being polite. But if you ONLY do it for women- then yeah...that's benevolent sexism.

      By the way- it isn't the end of the world to find yourself scoring a bit sexist- I did myself...the point of it is just to be aware that those feelings exist and that you have them, and when you start thinking through them- you may find you have a desire to change them.

      •  my basic answer is (7+ / 0-)

        i tend to idealize women a bit--i have a general view that on average, they tend to be slightly more moral and considerate.  I find myself saying "what a jerk" a lot more than i find myself saying "what a bitch" for instance.

        Chivalry is a deeply ingrained form of social politesse.  I think that trying to classify it as "benevolent sexism" and target it for removal will honestly do more harm than good.

        oops. I hope the gate wasn't too expensive.

        The Nexus has you.

        by Dante Atkins on Wed Jun 27, 2007 at 06:13:55 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Ah...I guess we'd disagree on that then. (11+ / 0-)

          I think treating women as if they're somehow more special creates an inequality. The problem is, there are a lot of jerks out there...and that's mostly because many of them don't believe men and women are really equal, so they act like jerks because they don't see women as being as valuable as they are.

          But treating women like they're somehow more special because there are many more sexist men than women (I'd guess) isn't really going to solve the problem, in a way it makes it worse...

          I guess intent really matters here. If you're holding open the door for me but not for a guy...in a way you're suggesting that I'm somehow not able to open it for myself...no? That may not be your intent- but what else is it then...politeness? Why me and why not the guy behind me?

          •  Yes it does (9+ / 0-)

            It's the whole virgin/whore dichotomy which fails to recognize the human side of females.  I read some scholarly article about the depiction of Guinivere in the Arthur legends - which fall into the dichotomy.  She is either depicted as evil or some kind of dupe.  This article used the virgin/whore dichotomy to show how it was difficult for storytellers to discern nuance and motives of Guinivere, hence two separate editions.

            End the Iraq occupation!

            by Unstable Isotope on Wed Jun 27, 2007 at 06:29:07 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  question... (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            tryptamine, Elise, Matthias, Fraggle
            cannot properly rec or respond from phone keyboard, but reading the comments I am struck by the het second wave but strongly humanistic vs slightly sexist and obtuse 'raised to be a gentleman' aesthetic.  It seems like a setup, sorta.  Its  confusing to me...I mean, where does it stop being perfomative gender and become sexism per se?  Is sexism always a bad thing?  When I hold the door for my femme friends, even if they are radical fairies, there is an intrinsic tip of the hat to their gender performance in the best sense, that aspect of themselves.  (One would always continue to hold the door, of course...part of the implied compliment is a genuine expression of courtesy :})  Does it tip over the line when its without irony?  Without awareness? Anyway sorry to be putting this here in this semirelated context, it's just where the thought leapt out...I probably have too queer a frame...
            •  dear jessical (4+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              tryptamine, Elise, Matthias, jessical

              I love your comments!

              I was thinking the same things - really - my now-wife, when we were first dating and I was a butch dyke and she was (still is) a femme dyke, trained me to hold the door for her.  It was always a bit ironic (or tongue-in-cheek, or something) and definitely a play to our respective gender roles...  But yeah, you (and I) probably do have too queer a frame, I think it's hard for most/many non-queer folks to get a lot of gender play.  

              I also do wonder sometimes about how what starts/started as gender play can kind of solidify to the point that it's a habit that doesn't look that different from regular old benevolent sexism.  

              Oh, the arguments I used to have with my 2nd wave, separatist-leaning friend about these things.

              I won't even get into the possibility, more or less ignored by the diarist, of consensual SM play...

              •  anti-queer feminism (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                tryptamine, Fraggle, jessical

                I think this form of feminism so blind to irony, satire, play, and the real power relations of everyday life is one that would silence queers and enforce our marginalization.

                •  yeah except... (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  tryptamine, Fraggle

                  ...the second wavers won so much.  And they bled for so many things that make current queer life possible, I think.  The rhetoric can be truly hateful (not this diary or thread, it's earnestly sweet by comparison...).  But I don't have a simple take...

              •  heh... (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                tryptamine, Fraggle

                ...just "heh".  Reading your comment, I recalled early in my transition, many years ago.  I was at that time completely nonpassing -- every penny went to Manhattan rent, so I spent a couple years like that.  At the time I identified with the radical wing, as it were, determined that necessity was freedom (and not entirely wrong).  I'm only intermittently femme by nature -- soft butch is very much my speed -- but nonpassing transies need gender lock, it was Manhattan, and so I spent my days in black suits, hose and low heels, and made the best of it.  I recall a few men I worked with who were socially conservative, wall street types, who had never seen one of those before, who went out of their way to be, by their own lights, gentlemen.  Opening doors and such.  None of them were unsophisticated, Manhattanites and a couple Parisans, and these were people who I had very intense technical/professional relationships with -- we built hard stuff together -- so I wasn't being put down.  I recall being profoundly touched; it was like, these were the terms they had to express respect.  Anyway.

            •  Good questions, jess. (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Elise, jessical

              I often wonder that myself.  I think my husband and I do a bit of playing with gender (though probably more like "dabbling" compaired to you and Fraggle) but I often wonder if the fact that we're doing these things ironically validates it or not.

              The best I can come up with, without giving it more than a few moments' thought, is that sexism is bad when it denies avenues and opportunities to someone, but where it opens avenues and opportunities (if it can even do that - it depends on what one thinks the definition of "sexism" is), it is actually a good thing.  This would also help explain why people have such different definitions of sexism in the first place, though: for some, certain forms of sexism have closed doors, whereas others may have never even tried those doors in the first place and so don't realize whether they've been restricted or not.

              Thanks for making me think, as always. ;)

              Class & Labor - Tues. nights, Feminisms Wed. nights

              by tryptamine on Wed Jun 27, 2007 at 09:25:45 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  jessical (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              tryptamine, irishwitch, jessical

              I really appreciate the perspective you're coming from...because they are shoes I can't really say I've walked in, so I haven't really been forced to think through things that way...

              I guess maybe performative gender IS sexism? I mean, that was sort of the first thought that popped into my head. I think I need to think this through a bit.

              I'd also add that I think awareness is important...and intent...but yeah- I'm thinking...

              •  Heh... (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                tryptamine, Elise, sfRenter

                So many good responses and everyone is probably already in bed; I got to thinking a bit more on the way back from Barnes and Noble with my evening SF fix (Nicola Griffith has a new book!  OMG!)...

                I think I'd go with your original definition of sexism, Elise, as marking someone as less.  And say that's pretty much always a bad thing.  I'd define performative gender, the sort which invokes cultural archetype, as a language, in which it is possible to be nuanced and sophisticated, or small minded and vile (or sometimes both -- like any language, it can contain great contradictions).  Since it is -- no joke -- a language in which much oppression and misery is footed about, and perilously close to Dion Fortune's definition of magic -- the change of conciousness in accordance with will -- it is easy to view every word of it as suspect.  And -- it is suspect.  Much havoc can be brought about.  But it is also a language in which it is possible to express great gentleness, real perception, elegance and experience.  To cut to the soul.  As Fraggle pointed out, it's meanings can shift over time in ways that surprise and don't always delight...

        •  think it depends on what form of chivalry (6+ / 0-)

          opening doors for everyone is nice and respectful. but some forms of chivalry are the reason that women have less rights, when niceness is done because women are too fragile to handle things.

        •  Just be a nice person (3+ / 0-)

          Hold the door open for people generally.  That doesn't strike me as so hard; and you're kind of an ass if you don't, frankly.

        •  When you're falling off a pedestal, (6+ / 0-)

          you have a lot farther to fall.

          Class & Labor - Tues. nights, Feminisms Wed. nights

          by tryptamine on Wed Jun 27, 2007 at 07:20:00 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  I agree (4+ / 0-)

        I think it is a bit rude to shut a door right in someone's face.  It doesn't have to be a big production.  People who make a big deal out of opening a door for me kind of creep me out.

        End the Iraq occupation!

        by Unstable Isotope on Wed Jun 27, 2007 at 06:26:10 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Exactly, Elise... (6+ / 0-)

        I hold the door open all the time for men, women, children, dogs, whatever might be coming in/out of the door when I'm there with my hand near the door pull.  I don't consider it as something a man should do for a woman, and I'm often surprised to see a look of embarrassment on the face of a man when a woman (me) holds the door for them.  I'm strong enough to hold a door, for godsake, and I got there first.  What's the big deal.

        As I said somewhere below, I was surprised by my scores being so low, as I wasn't raised in an environment that was conducive to feminist thought.  But I've gone my own way, so maybe I shouldn't be surprised by my scores on this test any more than I should be surprised that I avoid the church I grew up in like the plague....

        NION
        Liberty and Justice for All

        by Got a Grip on Wed Jun 27, 2007 at 06:37:14 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  I think there's a distinction between (9+ / 0-)

      deciding that for you "true happiness in life can only be obtained when romantically involved with women" and in general "true happiness," etc.

      Do you think that homosexual men don't have "true happiness," for example?  

      Any force that tries to make you feel shame for being who you are...is a form of tyranny... And it must be rejected, resisted, and defeated. ~Al Gore

      by Sinister Rae on Wed Jun 27, 2007 at 06:12:25 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  that's not (3+ / 0-)

        what the blockquote seems to imply.  I crave physical and emotional intimacy.  Can't help it.  But not everyone does.  If you're happy without it, more power to you.  I suppose it makes you less dependent on others for your happiness.

        oops. I hope the gate wasn't too expensive.

        The Nexus has you.

        by Dante Atkins on Wed Jun 27, 2007 at 06:16:59 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  If you follow the link (5+ / 0-)

          you'll see that intimate heterosexuality is also defined as "the belief that men can achieve true happiness in life only when involved in romantic relationships with women" which I think is in line with my point.  It's sexist (heterosexist) to believe that men in general need a woman for happiness.

          I also don't think that intimate heterosexuality is talking about healthy cravings for physical and emotional intimacy, but rather, for lack of a better word, the creepy kind that's based on gender stereotypes.  

          Any force that tries to make you feel shame for being who you are...is a form of tyranny... And it must be rejected, resisted, and defeated. ~Al Gore

          by Sinister Rae on Wed Jun 27, 2007 at 06:31:57 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I want a woman (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            tryptamine, Sinister Rae, catleigh

            And, I think, empirically, most people feel that way.  That's not sexist, and it's important we recognize that difference between an empirical claim (most people want an intimate union) and the normative one (there's something wrong with you if you don't).  A lot of unnecessary argument can arise from that distinction which is all too often glossed over.

            •  Absolutely (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              tryptamine, jessical

              And the concept of "intimate heterosexuality" is, by my reading, talking about the normative claim - that all men need women and there is something wrong with them if they do not.

              Any force that tries to make you feel shame for being who you are...is a form of tyranny... And it must be rejected, resisted, and defeated. ~Al Gore

              by Sinister Rae on Wed Jun 27, 2007 at 07:23:54 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

  •  That has to be one of the most badly designed (22+ / 0-)

    quizzes ever.  I haven't even finished taking it, and am just appalled at how bad it is.

    Poorly worded questions, ambiguous answers....

    I am, by training, a psychometrician; I've also written surveys.  The people who write quizzes like this should hire a qualified person to do so.

    Now, let me go finish the thing and then read the rest of this diary, which looks very interesting

    Republicans believe government is the enemy. When they're in charge, they're right.

    by plf515 on Wed Jun 27, 2007 at 06:07:50 PM PDT

  •  What would happen to this post on Salon.com? (11+ / 0-)

    Has anyone noticed the difference in attitudes toward feminisms issues between the Daily Kos and the Broadsheet blog at Salon.com?

    The Broadsheet blog is a corner of Salon.com that is supposed to be to discuss womens' issues, and they usually post pretty timid articles on there... horay for the end of martial rape in Thailand, commemorating the 35th anniversay of Title IX... but in the comments section there are always a ton of people attacking the blog no matter what is written. The attitude there seems to be VERY negative towards feminism.

    Once one author wrote a piece investigating the high incidence of rape in the military, and the response of many commenters was basically well 'women in the military deserve to get raped.' A comment like that here on dKos would get troll rated into oblivion. Does that explain the difference? Is it the community here, the fact that you are not as anonymous? Or are the people just different?

    I'm perplexed at this because both sites seem equally 'liberal.'

  •  This is an excellent diary (13+ / 0-)

    one note, though.... in the definition of sexism, you are nicely neutral.  That is, it could be sexism against or for men or women.  The examples, though, are all about male sexism against women.

    Now, that's OK.  Surely this is more widespread than the other, and this diary is, after all, called feminisms.  But perhaps the broader picture would be even more 'feminist'?

    When men are 'required' to be the 'strong silent type' does that not also play into the difficulties?

    When male violence is glorified, is that not a part of it, too?

    When a man working in a nursery school is asked what he does for a 'real job' (that happened to me) are not both men and women demeaned?

    Not to take anything away from the diary, just trying to raise some other issues

    Republicans believe government is the enemy. When they're in charge, they're right.

    by plf515 on Wed Jun 27, 2007 at 06:17:12 PM PDT

  •  Hmm. (10+ / 0-)

    Hostile Sexism:

    Average female: 2.0.

    Average male: 2.9 (?)

    Me: 0

    Benevolent Sexism:

    Average female: 2.9 (?)

    Average male: 3 (?)

    Me: 0.55

    I found one of the questions confusing Hostile Sexism:

    Average female: 2.0.

    Average male: 2.9 (?)

    Me: 0

    Benevolent Sexism:

    Average female: 2.9 (?)

    Average male: 3 (?)

    Me: 0.55

    I found one question confusing, "Men are complete without women." Agree or disagree.  I wasn't sure what was being asked so I put "3".

    Other than that I'm not sure it's a good test.  Any question that says "most women" or "most men" or "men want" or "women want" is an automatic "strong disagree".  (Except I got confused by that one above.)  So the test actually tests your skill at avoiding logical fallacies.  I'm not sure it tests your real-life attitudes.  

    Naturally, I hope my real life attitudes are 0 and 0 . . . but I dunno . . . you have to try to observe yourself in life to know that.  Or have other people tell you.

    "Space. It seems to go on and on forever. But then you get to the end and a gorilla starts throwing barrels at you." -- Fry, Futurama

    by LithiumCola on Wed Jun 27, 2007 at 06:20:01 PM PDT

    •  The whole test is cockamamie (15+ / 0-)

      Take this

      (1) No matter how accomplished he is, a man is not truly complete as a person unless he has the love of a woman.

      errrm, what about gay guys?

      1. Many women are actually seeking special favors, such as hiring policies that favor them over men, under the guise of asking for "equality."

      if you think "ALL" women do this, do you agree, or disagree? What if you think some women do this? Or none?  

      (3) In a disaster, women ought not necessarily to be rescued before men.

      One of the first principles of questionnaire design is not to word things in the negative.  If you strongly disagree, are you saying that women SHOULD necessarily be rescued first?  What if you think it depends on circumstances?

      (5) Women are too easily offended.

      another dumb question. Which women?  Some women, like some men, are too easily offended.  Some aren't.  Agree? Disagree?

      (6) People are often truly happy in life without being romantically involved with a member of the other sex.

      Does this that ALL people are OFTEN happy?  That MOST people are sometimes happy? or what?

      (9) Women should be cherished and protected by men.

      Ummm yeah.  And men should be cherished and protected by women.  And women by women, and men by men.

      (12) Every man ought to have a woman whom he adores.
      Again, what about gay guys?

      Every single question is bad.

      Republicans believe government is the enemy. When they're in charge, they're right.

      by plf515 on Wed Jun 27, 2007 at 06:28:44 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  the whole site is like that (9+ / 0-)

        I think their effort is well meaning though and I applaud them. But they need to hire a better survey writer.

      •  It's simpler than that. (9+ / 0-)

        No matter how accomplished he is, a man is not truly complete as a person unless he has the love of a woman.

        "a man" means "No man, not one single man".  That's false.  There exists at least one man on Earth who is truly complete and doesn't have the love of a woman.  Obviously.

        The question, as stated, isn't even about human behavior and attitudes, at all.  It's an informal logic test.

        (Actually re-reading your comment you said the same thing.  lol.)

        "Space. It seems to go on and on forever. But then you get to the end and a gorilla starts throwing barrels at you." -- Fry, Futurama

        by LithiumCola on Wed Jun 27, 2007 at 06:35:41 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Suppose you worded it this way (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          tryptamine, Elise, Ice Blue, LithiumCola

          "People are not truly complete without a loving relationship"

          I sure agree with that!  

          or even, taking it one step further....
          "Love is at least as important as other 'accomplishments'

          I agree again!

          Republicans believe government is the enemy. When they're in charge, they're right.

          by plf515 on Wed Jun 27, 2007 at 06:40:18 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I don't agree with this: (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            tryptamine

            "It is not the case that there has existed, does exist, or will ever exist a single person who was, is, or will be complete without a loving romantic relationship."

            I find that absurd on its face, and it's logically equivallent to the test question.

            "Space. It seems to go on and on forever. But then you get to the end and a gorilla starts throwing barrels at you." -- Fry, Futurama

            by LithiumCola on Wed Jun 27, 2007 at 06:49:38 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Well (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            tryptamine

            if you make it sex and/or gender neutral, how are you going to measure sexism?  

            Any force that tries to make you feel shame for being who you are...is a form of tyranny... And it must be rejected, resisted, and defeated. ~Al Gore

            by Sinister Rae on Wed Jun 27, 2007 at 06:49:52 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Maybe the question just isn't one that (0+ / 0-)

              is about sexism at all?

              Republicans believe government is the enemy. When they're in charge, they're right.

              by plf515 on Wed Jun 27, 2007 at 07:02:39 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Just so we're clear, (0+ / 0-)

                you mean this question, right?

                No matter how accomplished he is, a man is not truly complete as a person unless he has the love of a woman.

                I think that is absolutely talking about sexism.  I find the belief that a man cannot be whole without a good little lady beside him to be sexist (which is not to say that individual men cannot or should not desire the love of a woman).  It plays on stereotypical heterosexual gender roles.

                Any force that tries to make you feel shame for being who you are...is a form of tyranny... And it must be rejected, resisted, and defeated. ~Al Gore

                by Sinister Rae on Wed Jun 27, 2007 at 07:16:15 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I do mean that question (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  4jkb4ia

                  and I think you read your own assumptions into the question.  

                  Suppose that the woman who loves the guy is just as powerful as he is? Or more powerful?  

                  If we ignore the heterosexist nature of the question, then it's not a question about sexism, it's a question about the nature of humanity.

                  Now, if you changed it to something like what you wrote:

                  "A man needs a good little woman beside him"
                  or some such, then it would clearly be about sexism.

                  Or if you made it
                  "Men need women more than women need men" it would be sexist, but so would
                  "Women need men more than men need women".

                  Republicans believe government is the enemy. When they're in charge, they're right.

                  by plf515 on Wed Jun 27, 2007 at 07:24:16 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Well (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    plf515

                    I think that heterosexism and sexism are closely linked, so I'm not sure that we can ignore the heterosexism of the question.  

                    Suppose that the woman who loves the guy is just as powerful as he is? Or more powerful?  

                    I'm not seeing the relevence.  How are you defining powerful?  Even if the woman is more powerful than the man, by however you define and measure that, it's still sexist to suggest that the man cannot be complete (however the researcher is measuring/defining complete) without the woman.  

                    IME, it's inherently sexist to presume that a person's "completeness" relies on having a member of the opposite sex love you.  

                    Let's reverse the question to be:

                    No matter how accomplished she is, a woman is not truly complete as a person unless she has the love of a man.

                    I think that's an extremely sexist statement, because it implies that women aren't complete beings in and of themselves.  Likewise, saying that men aren't complete beings in and of themselves is sexist.

                    Any force that tries to make you feel shame for being who you are...is a form of tyranny... And it must be rejected, resisted, and defeated. ~Al Gore

                    by Sinister Rae on Wed Jun 27, 2007 at 07:40:24 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  A couple points (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Sinister Rae
                      1.  I said to ignore the heterosexism only to simplify the discussion.  I agree with you that separating hetero-ism from sexism is tricky, maybe impossible
                      1.  Then I think we are arguing over what meaning of 'complete' to use.  

                      Let's try this one:
                      "A person is not complete without a romantic relationship"

                      That seems to get rid of both hetero-ism and sexism.

                      What does 'complete' mean?  We are all clearly complete beings, in and of ourselves.  But we are also missing something if we do not have romantic relationships.  I think humans need loving relationships - not necessarily hetero, not necessarily monogamous.... but there is something regarding romantic love that is not present in any other human condition.

                      Republicans believe government is the enemy. When they're in charge, they're right.

                      by plf515 on Wed Jun 27, 2007 at 07:55:24 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  I think we're agreeing more than disagreeing (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        plf515

                        "A person is not complete without a romantic relationship" would definitely be measuring a person's attitudes toward relationships, but I think the statement as it was written is measuring sexism.

                        We are all clearly complete beings, in and of ourselves.

                        And yes, I certainly agree with you here, but we know this to be true because neither of us is sexist.  :)

                        As for missing something if we don't have romantic relationships, I may disagree with you depending on how you define "romantic."  If you mean an intimate emotional connection with someone you're having sex with, I'll pass, frankly, and am completely okay with that. :)

                        Any force that tries to make you feel shame for being who you are...is a form of tyranny... And it must be rejected, resisted, and defeated. ~Al Gore

                        by Sinister Rae on Wed Jun 27, 2007 at 08:09:49 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  OK (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          Sinister Rae

                          I think we do disagree on that last point.

                          But it gets tricky to discuss, because English doesn't have the right words.....  all the words I could use have connotations I would rather not invoke, and I am therefore going to just let it lie

                          Republicans believe government is the enemy. When they're in charge, they're right.

                          by plf515 on Wed Jun 27, 2007 at 08:14:25 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  Yeah (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            plf515, mamamedusa

                            It's especially tough to have these conversations online, as you can't read tone, immediately rephrase or get feedback, etc.

                            OT:

                            Have you ever written a diary on how to read social science surveys?  I know you've done a lot with statistics, but what about methodology in general?

                            I ask because with all the presidential polls, I see a lot of comments that seem to illustrate that people don't know how to read them.  I was wondering if you had anything handy to link to when that pops up again.  

                            Any force that tries to make you feel shame for being who you are...is a form of tyranny... And it must be rejected, resisted, and defeated. ~Al Gore

                            by Sinister Rae on Wed Jun 27, 2007 at 08:22:10 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Interesting idea (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Sinister Rae

                            can you send me an e-mail with these ideas?

                            I'd be interested in writing such a diary, but would like to make it as useful as possible

                            My e-mail is on my page

                            Republicans believe government is the enemy. When they're in charge, they're right.

                            by plf515 on Thu Jun 28, 2007 at 04:18:38 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                        •  Heh (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          plf515

                          Let me rephrase:

                          ...but I think the statement as it was written is measuring sexism.

                          ...but I think the statement as it was written is an attempt to measure sexism, but like the rest of the questionnaire, it's a fucking bad attempt.

                          Any force that tries to make you feel shame for being who you are...is a form of tyranny... And it must be rejected, resisted, and defeated. ~Al Gore

                          by Sinister Rae on Wed Jun 27, 2007 at 08:16:07 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                  •  I found it sexist (0+ / 0-)

                    and I am female. The idea that someone neds another person, regardless of gender, to compelte them is wrong. I clicked 0 for that one because I so strongly disagreed.

                    The last time we mixed religion and politics people got burned at the stake.

                    by irishwitch on Thu Jun 28, 2007 at 12:40:07 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

  •  here are my scores: (13+ / 0-)

    hostile: 0.45
    benevolent:  1.36

    not sure how to read that given the very hetero-centric nature of a great deal of the questions.

    i know i was socialized as a male first, and then as a gay man, but after years of learning to value my perspective as a gay man, the idea behind some of the phrasings of the questions left me a bit at odds with the whole quiz... so, the idea of one man - one woman and completeness, in al its various castings in the quiz, well, they were so foreign to me.  and awkward...

    nevertheless, this is one brilliant diary. distressing, disturbing, profound, fucking brilliant.

    _________________________________

    "...you shot me in both my knees then lit me on fire. piss off..."

    -8.25, -6.15

    by dadanation on Wed Jun 27, 2007 at 06:20:18 PM PDT

  •  Great diary, PD... (7+ / 0-)

    My scores were:  hostile sexism 0.82, benevolent sexism 0.00.  I'm actually sort of surprised that it wasn't a little higher in each category.  As a middle-aged woman who was raised in the Pentecostal Church in an old-fashioned farm community, I absorbed alot of what constitutes sexism as part of a way of life.  However, I haven't exactly lived the kind of life that would suit most men who are sexist.  I've basically done "the work of a man" all my life, and stood up for myself and for anyone else who needs it, woman, man, child or animal.  So maybe I shouldn't be as surprised as I am by my scores.....

    NION
    Liberty and Justice for All

    by Got a Grip on Wed Jun 27, 2007 at 06:21:55 PM PDT

  •  Thought-provoking diary (6+ / 0-)

    My question is, as a hetero man, can I really love a woman as a person without also loving her as a woman?  And if I can't, am I sexist under your definition of "sexism," which you say includes "systemic differentiations based on the sex of the individuals"?

    •  no, sexism is prejudice that is harmful (4+ / 0-)

      to women. loving a woman as a woman is not by itself harmful.

      •  Yeah, But We Men Look At You A Different Way... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Matthias

        ...than you look at us.

        That's just the truth.

        Men can distinguish their sexual world from the real world, but our sexual world is just kinda more....there.

        •  You believe this (4+ / 0-)

          because you know the sexual world of all men and all women?

          I say this because I believe our challenge as a society is not to take observations - such as women are more likely to do X, and men are more likely to do Y - and turn them into institutional generalizations.  By institutional generalizations I mean ones like "women are bad at math" and so on.

          End the Iraq occupation!

          by Unstable Isotope on Wed Jun 27, 2007 at 07:06:43 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I Do, Best Evidence I Know Of.... (0+ / 0-)

            ...is the experience of women who "transgender", and get to feel the wonderful experience of being an adolescent male, overwhelmed by sexual imagery.

            I would also say that a prima facia case is the huge disparity between the amount of sexual imagery men consume and the amount women do. The disparity is so very large that one can't ignore it.

            Also, one learns, as an adolescent, that you have developed behaviors (taking opportunities to look at women, sort of "cataloging" their physical attributes) you had no idea that other boys did.

            •  It depends (4+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              tryptamine, irishwitch, jessical, megaera

              on what you define as "sexual imagery."  Did you know that the romance genre is the biggest popular book sub-genre?  Many (but not all) romance books rely on sexual imagery.

              End the Iraq occupation!

              by Unstable Isotope on Wed Jun 27, 2007 at 07:19:47 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I think you're correct (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                tryptamine, A Handsome Man, megaera

                There is a reason the bodice-ripper romances and harlequin sell as well as they do.  Whereas porn may not excite a woman as much as a man, a nice, romantic love making scene sets the mood for alot of women (guess it's the plot :) )

                "A feminist is a woman who does not allow anyone to think in her place." Michelle Le Doeuff

                by mpwife on Wed Jun 27, 2007 at 07:41:55 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  For the record (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  tryptamine, mpwife

                  only the Steeple Hill ine of Harlequins feature Barbara Cartland heroiens of the Christians young and virginal types. And they don't see at all.

                  And bodice ripper is a term romance writers and readers hate becaue it belongs to a particualt time when the editors were male and the heroines virginal (late 60s-70s, Kathleen Woodiwiss, LAurie McBain and Rosemary ROgers are the big names)  because the MALE editors thought women couldn't handle a womn who wasn't--and theyhad to be forced to ahev sex the first time . In other words, bodice rippers are novels where sex equals rape.

                  Historical romances are what's mostly written today (though ROgers and WOodiwiss still sell).  Mary Jo pUtney and Jpo Beverley are the best writing historicals today. ALogn with Sabrina Jefferies and a handful of tohers.

                  Today's romance heroine, unless she's the heroine of a screwball comedy, tends to be strong, smart, tough and dangerous if you push her.

                  The last time we mixed religion and politics people got burned at the stake.

                  by irishwitch on Thu Jun 28, 2007 at 12:38:29 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

              •  There was also a study recently (4+ / 0-)

                that showed that women tend to look at a sexually suggestive picture for a lot longer than men do.  I don't have a link but it was in the news this week, I believe.

                Class & Labor - Tues. nights, Feminisms Wed. nights

                by tryptamine on Wed Jun 27, 2007 at 08:22:01 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  I hope (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              tryptamine, jessical

              that you didn't think I was attacking you.  You hit one of my buttons in your comment (generalization) so I felt I had to respond.

              End the Iraq occupation!

              by Unstable Isotope on Wed Jun 27, 2007 at 07:21:14 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  Civilization is about supression (0+ / 0-)

              of natural human behavior.  Don't kill, don't steal, obey authority.

              Also, Keep Eyes Up Here.

              My mom, of all people, actually mildly chastised me once because I didn't notice a pretty girl/woman (pick one) that walked by, and said I was getting to be like my father.  Mom!  TMI.

              "Got to kick at the darkness 'til it bleeds daylight."--Bruce Cockburn

              by Free Radical on Wed Jun 27, 2007 at 07:56:02 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  My late mother said of Dad (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                tryptamine

                (to whom she was married for 62 years, and he never cheated) that when he stopped looking, she'd check for a pulse and call the EMTs because he'd be dead. I've never understood women who pitch hissy fits because their man looks at another woman.   It's not cheating. It's just being alive. Besides, it's hypocritical because if a fine-looking guy walked by, they'd look.

                Now if my husband suddenly started thinking Paris Hilton and Ann Coulter were sex symbols, I'd worry. But this is a guy who drools for Susan Sarandon and still thinks Gloria Steinem and Sophia Loren are babes, along with Scarlett Johanssen.

                The last time we mixed religion and politics people got burned at the stake.

                by irishwitch on Thu Jun 28, 2007 at 12:32:49 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  a couple notes on your "proof" (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              tryptamine, rserven, jessical

              and I don't mean to slam you, I can see you're trying to have an intellectually honest discussion.

              So:

              1. I don't think I've ever heard a transgender man (FtM, trans guy, etc) refer to himself as a "woman with transgender experience" - we tend to call ourselves men with a transgender past, or just men, or trans men. But not women.  That's kinda the whole point.
              1. I'm not sure where you got your information about what trans men experience, but not all trans guys who start on testosterone get "overwhelmed by sexual imagery" - I didn't.  I noticed some changes in how I related to sex, but they didn't have to do with visuals/imagery.
              1. Some trans guys do notice being "overwhelmed by sexual imagery" or other changes that seem to confirm biological reasons for various kinds of sexist practices.  But there's no way that I know of to sort out how much of what we as trans guys experience during transition is due to physiological changes versus the fact that we're generally pretty fucking happy to be starting hormones and about the changes in our bodies, and/or whatever beliefs/assumptions we have about what testosterone will do to our experience of our sexuality.

              In terms of the boys all doing the same things without talking to each other, there are lots of ways people pick up messages about how they ought to experience things that don't involve talking explicitly with your peers.

              I'm not saying that testosterone & estrogen don't do different things, but I think it's nearly impossible to parse the effects of hormones v. the effects of cultural interpretations of hormones v. the effects of cultural messages that have absolutely nothing to do with biological differences between "men" and "women."

            •  Related to testosterone? (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              tryptamine

              I have a professor who is in is 50s and was diagnosed with prostate cancer a few years ago.

              He related to me an interesting story about all of the "looking" and "initiating" that men supposedly do.

              He had to take testosterone-inhibiting medication for a year so the cancer wouldn't be hormone fed during  treatment.

              Pretty soon, he told me, he noticed that he was doing  a LOT less looking at women and did a LOT less initiating of sex with his wife. He said that if she initiated it, he was fine and could perform and everything, but he just wasn't as all about sex has he had been before. He was the most surprised at the fact that he wasn't looking so much.

              He ascribed it to his lowered testosterone. I'm sure there was also a cultural element he was overlooking, but I thought that was a REALLY interesting story!

              •  The thing about a story like that is (0+ / 0-)

                that women have testosterone too, and I believe there have even been studies showing that increased testosterone in women correlates to increased libido, just as it does in men.  That still doesn't mean that the way our culture makes "testosterone" and "horniness" (and "testosterone" and "male") almost exact corollaries is proper or accurate.

                Class & Labor - Tues. nights, Feminisms Wed. nights

                by tryptamine on Thu Jun 28, 2007 at 09:21:42 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Agree (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  tryptamine

                  It's just interesting that while we assume that all of the behavior is learned, there is a biological component as well.

                •  Actually as a woman past menopause, (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  tryptamine

                  I follow these sorts of issues.  Recently they decided after a study of women with lack of desire or thsoe who were unable to have an aorgasm, past menopause--that it really doesn't work that well. Apparently we're more complicated than men when it coems to sex. I tried it during a bout of lack of desire and it did nothign except give me acne, which still crops up from time to time.

                  The last time we mixed religion and politics people got burned at the stake.

                  by irishwitch on Thu Jun 28, 2007 at 12:29:30 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

            •  As someone who writes erotica for women (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              tryptamine

              I can tell you that women think about sex a LOT. The difference is that men tend to LOOK at pictures, while women prefer words and a story.  Look at modt romance novels, let alone sensual or erotic romance (aka erotica for women).  LOTS of hot sex and very few euphemisms since the late 80s.  Just because we don't buy mags loaded with naked guys doesn't mean we aren't thinking about sex.  We just do it with a book.

              Erotic romance/erotica is the bestselling category of romance--and they are very graphic.  Many deal with bdsm--and some with FEMALE dominants. Some even have two guys and one heroine. (the m//m/f sell well; the m/f/f don't).

              The last time we mixed religion and politics people got burned at the stake.

              by irishwitch on Thu Jun 28, 2007 at 12:27:25 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  how do you know how all women view the world? (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          tryptamine, irishwitch

          how all women look at men and feel about sex?

          this is just silly.

      •  But to love the woman-ness of a woman (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        tryptamine

        presupposes an essentialist cast to "being a woman."  

    •  the question should be (4+ / 0-)

      can you really love a woman as a woman without loving her as a person?

      it astonishes me how many men don't bother,or don't know how, to see how the women they love are just like them in so many ways. they don't see the essential humanness that both share. they are only focusing on the differences. vive le difference and all that. and so I wonder how they can really love that person, if they are constantly looking at her as a "not-man" instead of a human.

  •  Awesome, thank you! (6+ / 0-)

    BTW, my score:

    Hostile Sexism Score: 0.82
    Benevolent Sexism Score: 1.73

    I scored a bit higher than I thought I would...

    (1) D.I.E.B.O.L.D.: Decisive In Elections By Ousting Liberal Democrats.
    (2) R.A.T.S.: Roberts, Alito, Thomas, Scalia.
    (3) -8.75, -8.10

    by Archangel on Wed Jun 27, 2007 at 06:23:39 PM PDT

  •  I must be broken... (7+ / 0-)

    0-0 for both.

    Where did I go wrong?

    DFooK

    "Impeach the Cheerleader, save the world!"

    by deepfish on Wed Jun 27, 2007 at 06:35:04 PM PDT

  •  I started taking the test... (16+ / 0-)

    ...but stopped because I thought some of the questions were sexist.  The language used was horrid, IMO.

  •  We can start by not calling women (14+ / 0-)

    GIRLS.  I really, really hate that.  And sometimes it's not meant as a sexist comment, but it is.  I've worked hard to educate all the men and women in my life to use the word 'girl' in place of 'woman.'  I won't even call an 18 year old female a girl.  It's insulting.  So the next time you're inclined to call a grown female a girl, think twice!  Just my 2 cents!

    Practice random acts of kindness (favorite bumper sticker)

    by Sally in SF on Wed Jun 27, 2007 at 06:36:53 PM PDT

  •  My latest rant on commercials is AAMCO (13+ / 0-)

    It starts off with a helpless soccer mom type going to a female Indy car driver who then says, "I got a guy" and away goes the music with some dude singing, "I've gotta a guy" and there's a guy in AAMCO clothing.

    Yeah, well I was the best in my transmissions class. All us non-guys were. I won't even get into their awful use of language.

    And I hate Mr. Goodwrench too! When I was in school for automotive there was a Mr. Goodwrench program. I wasn't about to enter it.

    Mais, la souris est en dessous la table, le chat est sur la chaise et le singe est... est... le singe est disparu! -- Eddie Izzard

    by CSI Bentonville on Wed Jun 27, 2007 at 06:37:37 PM PDT

    •  Some more on this from their press release (10+ / 0-)

      Dreyer & Reinbold Racing announced that AAMCO Transmissions will sponsor the No. 5 Honda-powered Dallara driven by Sarah Fisher for the remainder of the IndyCar Series season.

      ...

      AAMCO, which has more than 830 service centers in the United States and Canada, is one of the nation's most recognizable brand names. Fisher will be the first female athlete and second woman to represent the company after Zsa Zsa Gabor, the company's first spokesperson.

      "I'm very excited for AAMCO to join Dreyer & Reinbold Racing," Fisher said. "To be the next AAMCO spokesperson in the long line of successful people is truly an honor. AAMCO is very big-picture orientated and with their new 'I Got a Guy' campaign, we will reach mainstream America.

      "The campaign seems very natural to me as I am marrying into a large family who always seems to have a guy who can help you out; AAMCO is no different. They got a guy for all of your car care needs."

      [emphasis added on all the oxymoranic - sic - parts]

      Mais, la souris est en dessous la table, le chat est sur la chaise et le singe est... est... le singe est disparu! -- Eddie Izzard

      by CSI Bentonville on Wed Jun 27, 2007 at 06:48:04 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Interesting diary... it made me think. (6+ / 0-)

    That Ali 'G' ad is satire and should not be taken as an example of the objectification of women. And the quiz frustrated me (for reasons Sinister Ray pointed out).

    On the other hand, some of those ads were eerie beyond belief.

  •  I'm Curious - How Old Is The Diarist? (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    tryptamine, mpwife

    The reason I ask is that I think I see a much larger impact of patriarchy on women older than, say, 27. By that I mean "Born Before 1980".

    I suspect we are coming to a more comfortable heterosexual accommodation, but I think it has really taken generational changes.

    Young women have the tremendous advantage of having a variety of female models in their lives. And for that reason, I think the sexualized model of women is less threatening. And after all, most of us are heterosexual.

    I didn't take the test because I think it's much more important now to, yes, accept a radical feminist consciousness that sexism pervades our society, but also to re-examine the conclusions drawn from that analysis.

    •  female models (5+ / 0-)

      when I was a sweet young thing our "female models" were size 12 and 14.

      now my supermarket checkout aisles are filled with magazines showing women who look like death camp survivors.

      weird.

      frankly there is a lot of work to be done on the "sexualized model of women."

    •  Not down here in the SOuth (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      tryptamine

      where Belle is where it's at. I have two neices.  They frequently make me want to shake them. One EXPECTED her boyfriend to pony up for jewelry for Xmas. Kid was 18, in senior year in high school. He gave her a $1500 set--and she whined because he bought it t Sam's instead of a fancy jeweler. The other was dumped by her boyfriend for being to demanding and high maintenance (since he was a total asshole, I don't know how true it was).

      There is stilla lot of sexism out there on both sides--but the 20 somethigns often don't SEE it when it happens. They only wake up when they realize the Glass Ceiling for women applies to them as much as to their mothers.

      The last time we mixed religion and politics people got burned at the stake.

      by irishwitch on Thu Jun 28, 2007 at 12:17:24 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Oh, And A Lot Of The Ads Are FOR WOMEN (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    tryptamine, Ice Blue

    So...what do we make of that?

    Look, I'm an old-time, gender-blind, perfect equality, radical-feminist lefty (albeit male). But I think we're  slowly figuring out a positive enfolding of heterosexuality (which is sometimes a little....atavistic) into our understanding of ourselves.

  •  Excellent diary, and the sexist test.... (6+ / 0-)

    was quite interesting.
    I'm glad to say my test results were both below the average.  
    Hostile sexism score: 0.82
    Benevolent sexism score: 1.45

    By the way, I'm quite impressed by your scores Patriot Daily News Clearinghouse :-)

    "Imagine all the people, Living life in peace..." -John Lennon

    by angrybird on Wed Jun 27, 2007 at 06:50:31 PM PDT

  •  ...from his book written in 1952... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Ice Blue

    Men have stood in the way of women's development, denying their political and social rights for millennia. Male superiority is a myth.

    ...from "The Natural Superiority of Women" by Dr. Ashley Montegue

    which is why this should be two points...not one...

    The belief that one gender is superior to or more valuable than the other;

    I do not believe that one gender is more valuable than the other...but....

    "Immigration is the sincerest form of flattery." ---Jack Paar

    by bic momma on Wed Jun 27, 2007 at 06:59:44 PM PDT

  •  My scores (5+ / 0-)

    Hostile Sexism Score:  0.00
    Benevolent Sexism Score: 0.00

    Not sure if that means anything, but at least I'm consistent.

  •  my score (4+ / 0-)

    Hostile Sexism Score:  0.36
    Benevolent Sexism Score: 0.55

  •  ok the ads (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    tryptamine, Moody Loner, majcmb1

    the ads are...interesting.

    It is interesting the ones you chose for objectification. I'll start at the top and work my way down.

    1. "Wear me out." I'm seeing a woman who is clearly in control of the situation. The guy looks like he's begging. And she can start and stop the situation whenever she wants. Even though it's a man's colonge I believe.
    1. the woman is on top...speaks to me that SHE's the boss of that situation too.
    1. This one could go both ways. While I see a guy looking up at what appears to me to be a very powerful woman, he could also be looking up her skirt. Again, I see a situation where the woman is in control and she's not going to let any funny business go on. I can't make out what the ad is for.
    1. Bleh, I don't like this one, but again, I see a slightly different situation going on there too. She isn't interested until she sees the ring. This can go both ways, one very sexist, and one not so sexist, to me.
    1. someone said Ali G is satire but I think this ad is kind of gross.
    1. This ad is totally gross. "Save room for pie?" lords of kobol preserve us.

    The next group of ads, yeah, I see the sexism. Except maybe, in the lotion ad. The ad designer needed a way to express what dry skin feels like---like dry tree bark. Frankly they could have stuck with the alligator that they use for those campaigns. The Plumb-Barbara tool is just weird.

    The final group of ads are foul.

  •  Book Rec (6+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    tryptamine, Elise, cfk, jessical, mamamedusa, mpwife

    Anyone interested in these issues may find the book

    The Tangled Wing: Biological Constraints on the Human Spirit by Melvin Konner, of interest.  He's an anthropologist and an MD, and he's also a wise man.

    In a field where rabid opinions abound, he treads a steady middle course.

    Republicans believe government is the enemy. When they're in charge, they're right.

    by plf515 on Wed Jun 27, 2007 at 07:14:58 PM PDT

    •  I'm suspicious already. (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      tryptamine, Ja of Anoroc, irishwitch

      Anthropologists and MD's, in my experience, are really good at coming up with bullshit essentialist justifications for sexism.

      Now I have to look this guy up so I can develop an actual opinion about his work.

      •  If by 'essentialist' (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        tryptamine

        you mean something like

        The practice of regarding something (as a presumed human trait) as having innate existence or universal validity rather than as being a social, ideological, or intellectual construct

        then I think you  may not like Konner, as he does have some of this...... He cites feminist women scientists for most of what you might regard as sexist.

        But he also knows that there is a lot of culture involved.

        Republicans believe government is the enemy. When they're in charge, they're right.

        by plf515 on Thu Jun 28, 2007 at 04:27:52 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Actual publications (4+ / 0-)

    ran those ads!? What were they thinking?
    Both sexism scores were between 1 and 2, after having read the whole post. I wish that I could have answered that there is probably no difference in men and women exaggerating problems at work.

    -4.00, -5.33 I am reading The United States v. I. Lewis Libby by Murray Waas and Jeff. See FDL Book Salon, June 10, for more info.

    by 4jkb4ia on Wed Jun 27, 2007 at 07:17:30 PM PDT

  •  Hostile Sexism 0.18, Benevolent Sexism 0.36 (7+ / 0-)

    that surprised me because I thought I was answering a few of the questions the "wrong" way.

    Politics is like driving. To go backward, put it in R. To go forward, put it in D.
    IMPEACH CHENEY FIRST.

    by TrueBlueMajority on Wed Jun 27, 2007 at 07:20:59 PM PDT

  •  I'm not playing! (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mpwife

    I'm taking my penis and going home. So there.

    What did you do with the cash Joe?

    by roguetrader2000 on Wed Jun 27, 2007 at 07:28:41 PM PDT

  •  Crap, I need to retake it (4+ / 0-)

    Hostile 0.73
    Benevolent 1.73

    I don't believe in knights in shining white armour, especially since there may be skid marks in that armour.  

    "A feminist is a woman who does not allow anyone to think in her place." Michelle Le Doeuff

    by mpwife on Wed Jun 27, 2007 at 07:29:07 PM PDT

  •  scores (4+ / 0-)

    Hostile Sexism Score: 0.27
    Benevolent Sexism Score: 1.91

    After you get your scores you can look at the comparison between yours and the rest of the US.  That paints a slightly different picture.

    Those ads suck. Period.

    "The test of the morality of a society is what it does for its children." Bonhoeffer

    by LAMaestra on Wed Jun 27, 2007 at 07:30:19 PM PDT

    •  Looking at the scores ... (6+ / 0-)

      is interesting, especially comparing around the globe.

      I was (well) below the average for both forms for every country except, wow, (well) above average for benevolent sexism (both men and women) when compared to France.  

      The questions, themselves, prompted thinking.

      In part, I found them one-sided.  One question is about whether a man should sacrifice his well-being for the woman in his life.  Well, to a certain extent, I find that both partners should be prepared to sacrifice for the other ... thus, I likely would have answered the same if the sexes had been reversed.

      Blogging regularly at Ecotality Blog for a Sustainable Future.

      by A Siegel on Wed Jun 27, 2007 at 07:43:29 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I had a problem with the wording as well. (4+ / 0-)

        I've known all kinds of people who were power hungry and manipulative/controlling, male and female.  And I hope everyone finds someone to cherish.  We sacrifice a lot for one another, it's part of being in a relationship.  
        I don't know how scientific the poll is, but it's an interesting conversation starter, for sure!

        "The test of the morality of a society is what it does for its children." Bonhoeffer

        by LAMaestra on Wed Jun 27, 2007 at 08:30:44 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  .27; 1.27 (6+ / 0-)

    the higher benevolent score was expected, as I found my self answering certain questions honestly considering women as a subset of people, and so that women (and the question didn't specify particularly women) complained too much at work was certainly true, as it is of men.

    Several of the questions were loaded in this manner.

  •  Haven't even read yet-- (5+ / 0-)

    I just have to say how happy I am to see Feminisms on the rec list.  

    Okay, back to the top...

  •  Well, (0+ / 0-)

    I sure hope you kids work this all out.

    Back to the crossword puzzle. zzzz

  •  Amazing Diary! (5+ / 0-)

    Thank you so much.  It's already late and I have to get up early, so I'm glad there will be a second round tomorrow night.  I don't even know how many comments I'll have chance to read now.

    For the record, my score was Hostile Sexism .64, Benevolent Sexism .73.  My aversion to clicking either extreme (Strongly Disagree or Strongly Agree) probably didn't help my scores.  Most of my answers were one notch in from either extreme, with a few in the middle.  I'm just that kinda guy, always looking at the grey areas, pondering the possible exceptions, empathizing with certain pure human longings that in some circumstances lie beneath the way they have been warped by sexist socialization.

    I look forward to joining the discussion morer tomorrow evening.

  •  I am sexist scum apparently (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Ice Blue, PhantomFly

    Hostile Sexism Score:  1.82
    Benevolent Sexism Score:  1.82

  •  with all due respect (7+ / 0-)

    the test is tendentious. the questions are leading, and there is no way for any person to answer them honestly without coming off as a wuss or a jerk.

    It's a -load of bollocks.

    To commemorate a past event, you kill and eat an animal. It's a ritual sacrifice. With pie. (Anya)

    by Boreal Ecologist on Wed Jun 27, 2007 at 08:01:38 PM PDT

  •  I got a 1.82 on both types of sexism. (3+ / 0-)

    Below the average male, but not by much.

  •  Bad Test (7+ / 0-)

    Unfortunately the test you linked to is flawed and far too easy to cheat. Many people must misrepresent their actual sexism values on such a test as that.

    A more valuable test would have "control questions" to help weigh respondent veracity, and would also conceal the obviousness of all the questions. Seriously, how useful is a sexism test that bluntly asks "Are you a sexist?" in every question?

    It also isn't a good test because many of the questions cannot be taken at face value, leading to moments where a strictly truthful answer would not actually be an honest one, with regard to the intent of the question. This forces the respondent either to pick an answer they do not actually support, or try to judge the intention of the question--a sure sign of a bad test.

    Otherwise, however, a great diary! I love seeing this feature on Daily Kos. As human beings living in the same messed up society as everybody else, we liberals are subject to many of the same biases that other people are. But as leaders of the fight against humanity's most ingrained prejudice, we mustn't tolerate it in ourselves...and yet we do in ways both subtle and gross. We should hold ourselves to the highest standard, but we don't--and yet what's worse is that many of us think we do--and so I really do admire and appreciate the weekly Feminisms series. It raises awareness, and we could sure use that.

  •  Love (0+ / 0-)

    On that test, there were questions about a man not being complete without the love of a woman, and that was mentioned here as well.  I think that it's in many ways true that a man is not complete without a woman, and I would like to justify that belief and why it is not sexist.

    Homosexual men are equally incomplete without the love of another man.  Love isn't for everyone, but it is for most people, I think, and it's because the kind of extremely robust bond provided by love is the best thing in the world next to condensed milk.  Many people highly value individualism -- notably Nietzche -- but the security and freedom of loving another human being and being loved in return is almost always a requirement for the highest happiness.  It has nothing to do with men and women but with a bond of true mutual respect.

    That said, there are other things I disagree with here.  The problem is that many women do in fact exploit the "benevolent" sexism of their surrounding society and use their sexuality to gain advantage over men.  I don't "go clubbing", but I have many times seen flyers for dance clubs advertising free admission for "girls" or different age requirements ("girls 18+, guys 21+").  In addition, a woman with certain physical features can walk into a bar and be purchased a drink, while a man or a woman without those physical features cannot.  Men place a high premium on physical appearance, and whether this is biology or society, women who have the ability will often use their appearance to get what they want, in my view unfairly.

    I don't think this is good, obviously.  I think it does happen; it is up to men to respect women enough to reject passive compliance with prevailing sexism, and it is also up to women to take care not to abuse this sexism.  But this is, in part, a problem of inequality in general; a rich person can afford what he or she wants, while a poor one can't.  A beautiful woman can use her charms to get special treatment, while other people can't.  The benefits of that abuse are self-centered at little cost to the woman, but the true cost is to society.

    Many men like physical pleasure and like to be seduced; this could well be the fault of society.  Many women can then exploit those men unfairly.  Regardless of whether it's good, it happens.

    •  Actually good-looking PEOPLE, (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      tryptamine, CSI Bentonville

      not just women, have advantages over their plainer brothers and sisters.

      There a e also reasons why bars will waive admission for women rather than men--women are less likely to go to a club alone because they don't want to get hit on.  And having drinks bought for you? Can be more of a nuisance than a compliment.

      The last time we mixed religion and politics people got burned at the stake.

      by irishwitch on Thu Jun 28, 2007 at 11:24:38 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  It's Still Unfair (0+ / 0-)

        "Can be more of a nuisance than a compliment."

        But it's still different treatment, different attitudes, and a possibility, for those of weaker moral character, to exploit that difference.  The fact that these differences exist leads naturally to their being used for selfish ends, and women's exploitation of these differences is evidence of prevalent sexism -- it is NOT true, however, that observing these differences and the exploitation thereof constitutes sexism, like the diary implies.

  •  Have fun (2+ / 0-)

    Hostile Sexism Score:  0.45
    Benevolent Sexism Score: 1.27

    I don't know what to make of the D/s porn as sexism though - the only exposure I have to that lifestyle is through Second Life, and I've despised Dommeing and subbing pretty much equally.

    •  Not your cup of tea. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      tryptamine, Moody Loner

      Neither bad nor good, really.  It's like preferring chocolate chip ice cream over vanilla. Some do, some don't. Some people love oral sex, others don't. Same with D/s.  

      I say this as someone who IS a sexual sub (translation: ONLY in the bedroom; otherwise I am the same mouthy, opinionated broad you know here). It either turns you on or it doesn't. And even if you do D/s or S/m, you won't like EVERYTHING involved. Plenty of things people love doing turn me off--show me a cane and I cringe, and anything that involves cutting you can flatout forget.  I do very light play only. Others wouldn't even get mildly aroused by what gets me off.  It's all a matter of taste.

      FYI, I can betcha that half the people in Second Life have no real life experience with D/s.  Most online "experts" don't. And one dead giveaway is the guy  or gal who swaggers in and announces "I am   Dom/me!" and expects all the subs to fall on their knees in instant lust.   There was an idiot who used to come into a  chatroom I frequented (where there actually WERE several RL types) who would stride in like a John Norman hero and up to a female and order:" On your knees bitch!"  He got kicked out several times and was eventually banned, because that sort of behavior is  not tolerated in RL.  Actually the Dom/mes I know are mostly low-key, confident, non-swaggering types (kinda like black belts and Special Forces types) who don't need to prove anything to anybody. And at parties, Dom/mes wait to be introduced to subs they don't know so the subs don't feel backed in a  corner.  They tend to be protective of subs, not bullying.

      There's a wonderful cartoon  in Screw The Roses coauthored by Molly Devon (our own mollyd) whcih depicts this guy in leather with a bullwhip, and the caption reads: "The True Master announces himself by telling any woman who are new or dumb enough to listen that he is a True Master usually by stating "On you knees, bitch'.  He is an asshole. If he ever actually picks up a whip, he becomes a DANGEROUS asshole."  Kinda says it all.

      The last time we mixed religion and politics people got burned at the stake.

      by irishwitch on Thu Jun 28, 2007 at 12:09:59 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Okay. (0+ / 0-)

        When I spent a week collared in SL, my Domme and I had a pact that we would only keep the play in a certain area - but she didn't like that I wouldn't be on a leash all the time.

        When I went to a house-warming party hosted by a Master/Mistress couple I wound up unexpectedly punishing one of heir subs for the night. So. Not. My. Thing - especially when she was bleeding and begging me for more.

        In talking to other subs on SL, they tell me about how submitting to a Domme is a bond deeper than marriage - so maybe I don't get it because I don't a llow myself to take a video game that seriously.

        As for RL? Hon, people that use pain as a sexual enhancement aren't in pain all the time.

        Don't you love getting me to talk about these things? And I haven't even started on the ponyplay.

        •  Online,whether in a chatroom or a game (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Moody Loner

          it isn't real. NO real pain, other than psychic (and that can be plenty traumatic, I understand, from reading what women felt after characters were raped).

          You're playing a video game. That's all.  You are role-playing a sub, not being one.You don't HAVE to take it that seriously--and anyone who tells you that you must, needs some therapy.

          As for RL? Hon, people that use pain as a sexual enhancement aren't in pain all the time.

          And you are in real pain in a video game? If it's that real to you, there's a problem somewhere.

          I've done this IRL for 13 years. While there are folks who are slaves who claim they are 24/7 slaves--I tend to doubt it is completely micromanaged, because unless your Master/Mistress is independently wealthy and has 24 hours a day to devote to your submission, you have to make some decisions on your own.  You can't call him/her every time you need to go to the bathroom.

          I really didn't try to make you talk about this--if it sounded like I was doing so, apologies.  But you brought it up, and I wanted to clarify that what  vanilla people do when role-playing Dom/mes in a video game or online is often very different than what happens in real life.  I can always tell when I am reading  erotic romance with a bdsm theme whether the writer  actually has bdsm experience or has done her homework well by reading a lot and talking to real kinky people as opposed to someone who is spinning a fantasy without a clue.

          In real life, I could play with someone I didn't love--just as you can have sex with someone out of lust--but I wouldn't allow someone to collar me that I didn't commit to. I am a wife 24/7--but a sub only part-=time, and only in an erotic context.  ANd I am revealing,a s I have done since early on in my DKos career, a lot about my own life.

          Ponies?  Seen 'em, never wanted to be one.  In real life,  you'd ahve covered this in negotiations.  If pony trainign doesn't trip your trigger, you shouldn't do it. I think some people just love the expensive gear--the leathers and props are gorgeous.

          The last time we mixed religion and politics people got burned at the stake.

          by irishwitch on Fri Jun 29, 2007 at 08:29:44 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I'm sorry (0+ / 0-)

            I see now that I've been completely off the point.
            I was trying to say "well, this really doesn't work for me, but whatever...," and, rereading, it's coming across as "Ewwww."

            No, the ponygirls in SL have been some of the sweetest, kindest, most non-judgemental residents it's been my pleasure to, well "converse with" is a bit much as they communicate in whinnys and emotes, but you get the idea. And it seems like every third or fourth person I run into is in the scene, or says they are.

            No, my problem is people like the Master that, when a friend of mine was IMing me screamed "SHUT UP BITCH!" at her and started kicking her in the ribs. In-world, thank God. That was the kind of treatment the slave was asking of me - and it sounds to me like you'd have a problem with them, too.

            As for RL? Hon, people that use pain as a sexual enhancement aren't in pain all the time.

            RL is Real Life, hon. No, the video game doesn't cause me pain - that's why if they were offering to download my personality into it, I'd buy it at black-market prices.

            And talk about revealing your personal life, people are reading this and wondering about my p00ka wife. That would be None of Your Goddamn Business, people.

            •  And, yes (0+ / 0-)

              I shouldn't be saying "hon" there - but considering the subject some friendly, semi-intimate form of address seemed appropriate.

            •  Almost anyone with any real life experience (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Moody Loner

              would have a problem with that--UNLESS that term was agreed on beforehand. Some people get off on humiliation. Being called a bitch or a "pretty little slut" or a "dirty boy" turns some people on, IRL as well as in a game.  

              That so-called Master is the type I was talking about. They show up a lot in chatrooms, especially Gorean ones, and pound their manly chests and order about any woman who happens to be there. I sued to go  in  once in a while just to see how long it would take me to get kicked oput for not being submissive enough--sorta like going to LGF or RedState?  One time I barely go in the door before I pissed someone off by not bowing to him and the owner banned me forever from that room.

              I avoid online stuff for that reason. Never had a desire to try SecondLife or the sims for that reason--too many psychopaths act out their nasty little fantasies online.  

              I used to run a writing list. It began as a role-playing game, but we changed it to be interactive fiction with the hard and fast rule that ANYTHIGN you write with soemone else involving their character MUST be cleared by them first.  We'd had an idiot do soemthign vile and stupid, so we literally rewrote the ruels and started over. Since the list has a kink club as a venue, I also wrote strict rules on what was permitted and what wasn't.  The cardinal rule was non non-consensual sex unless depicted realistically.

              I do understand that kink isn't your thing, and that's fine.  I feel that way about reading rape fantasies or "forced sex" stories.  As a matter of fact, the site I reviewed romance and erotica for  had so many complaints about  content that we flagged for sexual content--whether it contained anal, oral, non-consensual, kinky, gay, non-monogamous sex--anything we could think of that might be helpful to potential readers.

              The last time we mixed religion and politics people got burned at the stake.

              by irishwitch on Fri Jun 29, 2007 at 10:51:50 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Oh you would _love (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                irishwitch

                the Gorean sims :)

                And the Master in the above story "offered" - well demanded - that I come over one evening, but didn't IM back when I told him I'd be happy to come over, rip his woman-abusing leg off, and shove it up his ass sideways :))

                Moody K isn't nearly as angry as I am, but that doesn't mean she doesn't have a bad side, or that you want to be on it.

                Okay. I'm thinking this horse is dead - thanks for the conversation. Wouldn't have gotten into it at all except

                1.) You sound like the people I think know what they're talking about, so it's good to confirm what they're telling me and

                2.) For some people in SL, I am the kinky friend, so I'd better make sure what I'm telling them is correct.

                Thanks for the time, and the conversation - despite appearances I don't think this was easy for either of us.

                •  I am pretty easy with it. (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Moody Loner

                  I've been the Voice of Real Kink to a lot of readers and authors on romance lists.  I NEED to write about this here some day because I also have a rep as  mouthy feminist who  doesn't deal well with people who piss me off.   I think the fact that some people can't cope with "feminsit" and "submisive" int he smae sentence without their being joined by a negative is kinda funny--because the subs I know are all reallys trong people who only submit within an agreed upon context. Wimps theya re not, nor pushovers.

                  The last time we mixed religion and politics people got burned at the stake.

                  by irishwitch on Fri Jun 29, 2007 at 11:42:06 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

  •  0 hostile (5+ / 0-)

    0.91 benevolent, but i know where it flagged me, and i disagree: question 9- women should be cherished and protected by men. i know what the test was trying to measure, but i marked 5 because i believe we should all cherish and protect each other.

    great job, pd- as always.

    © 2007 "one must pay back from this secret deposit of exquisite moments" - virginia woolf

    by Laurence Lewis on Wed Jun 27, 2007 at 08:22:20 PM PDT

  •  great diary! (4+ / 0-)

    the infantilisation and objectification are a peeve of mine and you cite very good examples.

    the main excuses I hear for sexism are "what's wrong with looking at pretty women" and "what's wrong with wanting to take care of the women you love" etc

    I have to admit I do like the tequila ad though. it is a well done ad, the woman has a beautiful healthy looking body, and there is nothing wrong with licking and biting in the right consesual circumstances! the ad implies a sexual give and take rather than just the woman acting as a piece of furniture.

    that's my taste though :D

    will be interested to read part 2 of this diary.

  •  My only disappointment here (7+ / 0-)

    is that more of us didn't take the chance to actually talk about our own sexism.

    I know I'm sexist.  I listen to men more than women; I sometimes consider men's endeavors more important than women's; I even sometimes forget that women exist within certain fields like music or history, or think of us as weaker, or treat women differently merely because they are women.  My sexism becomes most apparent, I think, when I'm talking in threads like these, because we sort of have to speak in generalizations and I let it get the better of me.  I find myself agreeing too neatly with my own generalizations, as if I've made a box and glued my head into it.  

    So how are YOU sexist?  That's what I want to know.  And how do you try to change your own sexism?

    Class & Labor - Tues. nights, Feminisms Wed. nights

    by tryptamine on Wed Jun 27, 2007 at 08:44:28 PM PDT

    •  tomorrow night is perfect vehicle for that chat (5+ / 0-)

      i was hesitant to include this test because it is faulty. but i thought it raised some interesting issues. i wish we had more discussion on our sexism rather than the problems with the test. but, the problems with the test included sexism and i think great discussion on some aspects of sexism. tomorrow's diary on different sexism memes i hope will stimulate more of a discussion of our own sexism and how to change.

    •  I have never felt or thought like that (5+ / 0-)

      the idea of women being viewed as less than men because of their plumbing has revolted me my entire life.

      literally REVOLTED :D

      I do not view the world as being in two camps, male and female.

      •  It revolts me too. (6+ / 0-)

        And I used to think that I wasn't sexist at all either.  My (ongoing) feminist education has shown me otherwise, though.  Living in the society we do, I don't think we can help being inherently sexist; we can certainly do our best to correct it but the default position is sexism and it takes real effort and introspection to move away from that.

        Class & Labor - Tues. nights, Feminisms Wed. nights

        by tryptamine on Wed Jun 27, 2007 at 10:23:36 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  frankly I think it varies (6+ / 0-)

          depending on a person's upbringing and personality. some are more susceptible to the societal influences than others. some have the sexist messages hammered into their heads from birth, thanks to religion etc and others haven't.

          •  I don't agree. (1+ / 0-)

            In my experience, those who claim to not be sexist at all really haven't taken the time to examine all of their own beliefs, attitudes, and actions.  (Not saying that you haven't, because I obviously don't know you that well; I mean people that this is my experience with people I know really well in real life.)

            I think the diary points this out well:

            Research has found that "exposure to media depicting women in degrading and subordinate situations, even if not explicitly sexual or violent in nature, will lead to increased violent behavior of men against women in society."  That is, "males exposed to ads where females are portrayed as sex objects are more accepting of rape-supportive attitudes and predictive of subjective levels of exploitation."

            I doubt most men consciously think about increasing violent behavior against women, or even believe that they are sexist against women all that much.  Surely women as well, having been raised in the exact same society, don't escape it either.  And it's just too easy for a person to say, "I'm not sexist at all" and never actually examine whether they are or not.

            Class & Labor - Tues. nights, Feminisms Wed. nights

            by tryptamine on Thu Jun 28, 2007 at 07:10:24 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  I went to all female schools (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            tryptamine

            from grades 7 through 12.  I never learned to defer to men or not to argue with guys in calss.  I alsways speak out.  WHich means that even though I was really cute, I didn't have many dates in college--in the late 60s, guys still expected women to not show them up in class discussions. I never learned the rules.

            There were studies done years agot hat shwoed that female leaders were more likley to have  attended all-female colleges wher ethey could get real practice as leaders. In coed colleges, guys tend to run thigns (or did when I was there).

            The last time we mixed religion and politics people got burned at the stake.

            by irishwitch on Thu Jun 28, 2007 at 11:57:56 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  Ah, really? (3+ / 0-)

      I think I tend to find my own sexism comes out towards men actually...

      I didn't really notice this about myself until I was about 23, but I used to think men weren't as smart as women, that they were lazier, more dishonest, sort of singularly focused (like, they don't tend to multi-task or do multiple interests as easily as women do), and that they were more likely to to be abusive. I really was particularly bad on judging men as being less smart than women and singularly focused...I judged so many people unfairly like this for a long time. I also really sort of thought of them as strictly pieces of meat--like, pretty much just sexual objects that I could use when I wanted to and then toss aside when I got annoyed with them - my philosophy back then was that men had been using women as toys for pleasure for centuries, so women should not only be able to do the same thing and have as much fun as they wanted while doing so, but that women should also strive to make men suffer (as men had been doing to women for so long). So I broke hearts, many times deliberately. I suppose you could say that's fairly hostile and benevolent sexism, but switched around and directed at men instead.  

      Once I realized that I was doing that, I really made every effort to try and recognize that behavior as it was happening, so I could re-evaluate things and stop being so sexist. It's taken a lot of time- and I still tend to do the pieces of meat thing occasionally...and the less smart thing occasionally. But- the important thing is that I catch myself MUCH MUCH faster now and try to stop it.

      So, if anything I'm definitely more sexist towards men...and I've definitely tried to stop it by recognizing it and sort of asking myself why I just assumed whatever it was I assumed, etc.

      I've learned a lot over the past few years doing that actually. I'm pretty good now...

    •  I am vain. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      tryptamine

      I like men telling me I look good. I like women telling me that too, but there isn't the hintof flirtation there. Well, sometimes there is, but I am too dense and 98% straight to recognize it when it comes from a  woman.

      And I look at men's butts.

      The last time we mixed religion and politics people got burned at the stake.

      by irishwitch on Thu Jun 28, 2007 at 11:54:56 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  My scores and one critique (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    tryptamine, KeepingItBlueKrstna

    Hostile Sexism Score: 1.55
    Benevolent Sexism Score: 1.45
    There was one question something to the effect of "Many people are happy without being involved with a person of the opposite sex."  My yes/no answer would be "yes", but that's mostly because I'm including gay people in that equation.  I think that there is a strong tendency to be happier when in a relationship but the word "opposite" kind of throws that off here.  So I think that could have been written in a less hetero-biased way.

    "Unrestricted immigration is a dangerous thing -- look at what happened to the Iroquois." Garrison Kellor

    by SpiderStumbled22 on Wed Jun 27, 2007 at 09:02:49 PM PDT

  •  Pleasure and danger (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    tryptamine, jessical

    I experienced the diary and the test as a flashbook to the homophobic feminism of the early 1980s that led Dworkin and McKinnon into their notorious alliance with the religious right and to the harrassment of the sex-radical feminists at the Barnard Conference whose proceedings are collected in Carole Vance's anthology, Pleasure and Danger. It is as if the challenges raised by such Lesbian sadomasochists as Gayle Rubin never happened.

    It is as if the gay male defense of porn never happened - I'm thinking of John Preston's essay, "Goodbye to Sally Gearhart" or the sentiment expressed in a gay porn writer's response to feminist dogma about objectification: "I am not just a human being, I am a piece of meat."

    The test was based on a naive view of human nature - as if women can never be sexually manipulative - what is sexist would be the notion that women are more likely to be sexually manipulative than men.

    As for the advertisements - how many were ironic, playing on the audience's presumed exposure to feminist arguments about representations in the media?

    As I see it, it is the equivalence of options and the freedom to be in control of one's situations that matter in sexual politics rather than some magical effect of specific images and senses of humor.

    •  Get real. Dworkin and McKinnon (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      tryptamine

      were very fringe. They never really spoke for the movement or most feminists.

      There is STILL a problem with being kinky and a feminist--it seems to be the one area where NOW still can't think about it without the ick factor: that a woman who is hard-driving at work, aggressive in the intellectual realm, could enjoy being dominated int he bedroom.

      Sex seems to be the area that mainstream feminists have the most problems with. Even your fantasies must be politically correct for some./  A pal of mine, who stand 5 feet nuthin' is a female dominant who tops men.  SHe   worked as a counselor for battered women , She also did educational work witht he police and medical personnel (she ws an EMT) on the differences between consensual bdsm and abuse.  When her boss learned of her sexual tastes, she was fired.   She was told she was stuck in a partiarchal view of women as submissive. My friend said, "But I am a Dominant. I give the orders. I have the control, with their consent. WHat we do gives pleasure to both of us, and I wouldn't do it if I didn't get my jollies." She was told that she jsut thought she was a Domme, but really she was submissive, giving men what they wanted.

      The last time we mixed religion and politics people got burned at the stake.

      by irishwitch on Thu Jun 28, 2007 at 11:52:58 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  My scores. You should have put in a poll for this (1+ / 0-)

    Hostile Sexism Score: 0.91
    Benevolent Sexism Score: 2.09

    FWIW

    .
    .
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    We are all atheists about most of the gods that society has ever believed in - some of us just go one god further
    -- Richard Dawkin

    by deafmetal on Wed Jun 27, 2007 at 09:23:39 PM PDT

  •  do we want... (3+ / 0-)

    our elected officials involved in this? Do we want to see some sort of legislation? I would like to see gender equal pay laws, but other than that I do not see where this can be fixed legislatively.

    I refuse to take the test because i do not like tests, but I am a sexist, I tend to want to be the bully for women, I definitely look at women as sexual objects I would like to get to know better, I definitely have slept with women because they looked good, and I didn't really care if they had much of anything to say. I have my issues to work out, but I do not see a political solution for this problem.

    When I tell you that I love you Don't test my love Accept my love, don't test my love Cause maybe I don't love you all that much

    by jbou on Wed Jun 27, 2007 at 09:29:56 PM PDT

    •  a political solution is to change laws (4+ / 0-)

      pass the equal rights amendment, provide equal pay, etc. that makes a dramatic statement about women, just as the fact that we don't have these laws makes a dramatic negative statement about women.

      As for sleeping with pretty women, women do the same. i think the key for me is not whether something is sexist, but is that sexism either per se harmful to women or can it be used as a stepping stone to harm women.

      so, keep on enjoying sex, but just don't objectify women in a manner that leads to dehumanization of women. :)

    •  I think the issue is- (3+ / 0-)

      do you respect those women as more than just the sexual object? Or is that all they are to you?

      I said above- I definitely used to see men pretty much solely as pieces of meat that were around for my sexual pleasure when I wanted them to be and who I could kick to the curb fairly quickly and easily when I got sick of them...which um...didn't take long because I had no patience for whiny romantic boys.

      The point is- I definitely don't see men that way anymore. Sure- people can enjoy themselves together sexually without a romantic connection (although that seems to have changed slightly for me lately...but that's for a different reason...anyway), but is there a mutual respect there? There should be. Even if I'm hooking up with someone just for the sexual benefits I still respect them as a person. And I certainly may appreciate certain body parts, but that doesn't mean the person is solely represented by or only good as a result of said body part.

      I think that's the difference...

      So, if you're respecting women- great. If not, that's something you might want to work on.

      The bully thing- not every woman needs or wants to be protected. I can kick plenty of ass on my own. It's certainly convenient to have a brother in law who is 6'3 and 280 to back me up if I'm ever in need, but you're talking to a girl who was in 3 fistfights in college with guys trying to steal stuff from my house at house parties...and I beat the crap out of every single one of those guys...and the 10 guys who tried to protect me got to watch instead. Sometimes it's certainly necessary though. There's plenty of violence against women, and not every woman has had self defense and can handle herself fairly well. For me, it's a matter of a few well-placed hits - poke him in the eyes and then while his hands are on his face- nail him in the balls and then punch him and kick shins until he falls and stays down. That's pretty much always worked out for me. They always expect you to go for the balls first- so they generally leave everything else unprotected. I guess it makes sense though.

      As for elected officials (I really need to be in bed now...not writing this book of a comment. I'm almost done), obviously pass the ERA and make sure women have equal pay and equal rights. Beyond that- this is really about what each person can do to stop contributing to sexism overall. If everyone makes a contribution to call out sexism and to correct their own sexist behaviors that have really negative consequences, well, then we're on the right track.

    •  If it's institutionalized sexism, (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      tryptamine

      damned right we do. Those with the power don't give it up unless forced to. It was true of segregation and racial discrimination, and it's true of discrimination against gays and women.  Unless there's a way to force change, it doesn't happen.

      Let me put it this way: when I was 24, I had a double master's and a Phi Beta Kappa key.  The ONLY jobs I could gt other than teaching were secretarial.  and I quit and went into education when my boss informed me they were hiring an Asst. for him  whose main qualification was having a dick and having sold radio time for 3 years. I'd put in a YEAR in two lobbying offices, could write articles (and was doing so; he couldn't write to save his life)and do research.  He was gonna make TWICE what I was making. I waited until th e day my trial period was up so I wouldn't have to pay the agency fee--and quit, and went into education.

      Paying? The person who does the asking does the paying, or you go dutch. Did that a lot when I was younger and dating.

      Bully? Depends on what you mean by it. IF you mean forcing a woman to do things your way with threats--bad news; that is abuse. If you mean  protecting her from other men--depends on the circumstances.

      Sex object? Again, depends.   As one former lover told me, while admiring my cleavage, from across the room all you can see is what you see.  SO in that way, attraction always makes the person into a sex object, and most of us like it.  HOWEVER, if you really like someone but they aren't a 10 and you dump them for that reason--then you have a problem. I've always found that there were guys who were 5s when across the room who became 10s once they started talking. And if the ONLY thign that matters to you is how the woman looks--then you're  Shallow Hal and hopelessly immature (goes for women too).

      I have to admit, I don't think I've ever slept iwth soemoen jsut for hwo they looked.  I've had a couple of one-ngihters, but they were with men I genuinely liked and owuldn't have minded knwoing better (when you do SCA and sf consa lot, you meet a lot of new people--and soemtiems sex happens on Sat. night after you've spent Friday ight and Saturday day and evening flirting and talking).

      The last time we mixed religion and politics people got burned at the stake.

      by irishwitch on Thu Jun 28, 2007 at 11:40:10 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  my thoughts on benevolent .. (warning: rant) (6+ / 0-)

    it's just the way i was brought up

    but just because i'll hold the door open for a lady (it's also likely i'd do this for a male though) or consider sacrificing my life to protect the opposite gender, does not mean i would not accept a wife that makes more money than i do.

    this diary has been very thought provoking and i agree with almost everything.  but i still find a place for some basic chivalry, and i can say after i die i hope the world is a different place where chivalry doesn't exist, but i may stay with it until then.

    i've actually said to my girlfriend i wish gender didn't exist.  i wish we were all the same.  but i wouldn't have a girlfriend then, and she thinks i'm insane for saying it.  but so many troubles over so much nonsense.

    so i'll do anything i can to try to create gender equality, because it is right on so many levels.  it is not even altruistic.  it just plain makes sense.  if we artificially devalue women and make them to be less than what they can be, everyone loses.

    but i'll still pay when i take someone out on a date.  to me, that's not sexism, just courtesy.

  •  Just a comment (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    tryptamine

    Some of the strongest feminists I know are women who ar sexually submissive.  They CHOOSE to lay power exchange games. It's turn-on for us because we aren't that way 90% of the time.  

    And we also have no problems with submissive men--we don't see dominance as a sex-linked trait.

    On the other hand, a good friend of mine who is a Female Dominant was working with a battered women's shelter--and she lost her job when they found out she was  kinky.  The told her she was letting men control her. When she pointed out that SHE was the one doing the controlling, they told her she only thought she was doing so--she ws still serving men's desires.  Didn't matter that she got off on it.
     
    What turns us on doesn't have to be politically correct.  

    The picture of the woman wearing the ball gag made me ill, as did the one of the woman with the red and swollen cheek.   It's all context. On a bdsm site I might find the ball gag picture erotic--but when used to sell something, it is becomes clearly an insult and degrading.  Anda picture of a woman witha  swollen cheekbone is NEVER erotic.

    The last time we mixed religion and politics people got burned at the stake.

    by irishwitch on Thu Jun 28, 2007 at 11:17:01 AM PDT

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