Return-Path: <nifl-esl@literacy.nifl.gov> Received: from literacy (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by literacy.nifl.gov (8.10.2/8.10.2) with SMTP id i2UMlQm14946; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 17:47:26 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 17:47:26 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <003601c416a7$e5903800$0302a8c0@wtrbct.adelphia.net> Errors-To: listowner@literacy.nifl.gov Reply-To: nifl-esl@literacy.nifl.gov Originator: nifl-esl@literacy.nifl.gov Sender: nifl-esl@literacy.nifl.gov Precedence: bulk From: "Bonnie Odiorne" <bonniesophia@adelphia.net> To: Multiple recipients of list <nifl-esl@literacy.nifl.gov> Subject: [NIFL-ESL:10149] Re: layers of meaning X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0c -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain; Status: O Content-Length: 9498 Lines: 220 When I travel to France, I'm a foreigner, yes, and have suffered some of the snubs that the French are legendary for (and no, I'm not engaging in that popular past time of French bashing). When I was truly offended was by my French friends who meant to pay me a compliment by saying I wasn't "really" American. Because my French was fluent? Because I didn't meet the stereotype? Because I was intelligent? Yes, I was ashamed of my country and of the behavior of some of my national confrères(soeurs). I was ashamed of how the policies of my country made some reluctant to deal with Americans at a recent conference, or were surprised that we weren't (all) flag waving monsters. This is why, at home, I work with those in the greatest need. It's my only way to make a difference, however small. And, yes, I have dealt with "illegal aliens," (both terms being offensive) and with their despair at being so terribly limited in their choices, in employment, education, family life... And their tremendous desire to cope nevertheless. Warmest Regards, Bonnie Odiorne Ph.D Program Faciliator Working Smart Computers 4 Kids Silas Bronson Library Information Technology Center Waterbury, CT Integrating Technology, ABE and ESL Instruction -----Original Message----- From: nifl-esl@nifl.gov [mailto:nifl-esl@nifl.gov]On Behalf Of Susan Ryan Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2004 1:18 PM To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: [NIFL-ESL:10140] Re: layers of meaning If I travel to a foreign ( to me) country, to the inhabitants there I am a foreigner. I do not find this offensive at all. You could take amost any word; put a certain tone or slant to it, and be offensive. However, the meaning of the word "foreigner" is not offensive. We are all foreigners" at some time. Susan >From: "Eugenio Longoria" <ezl109@psu.edu> >Reply-To: nifl-esl@nifl.gov >To: Multiple recipients of list <nifl-esl@literacy.nifl.gov> >Subject: [NIFL-ESL:10135] Re: layers of meaning >Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 10:47:53 -0500 (EST) > >I can't believe this conversation. I never really like to post anything, >but I guess today my tolerance level is a bit low. In life you cannot have >just one perspective; you have to have many. I am a foreigner and like >being one. I like to stand out from the mass of acculturated beings that >this country is. But, many times I just like to fit in as well as I can. >I >walk both roads never at once, but alternately. I have to. It is not that >I am living two lives, I am living one. But this life is full of events >that I have to navigate through. I navigate through each one as best as I >can, sometimes as a foreigner and sometimes as an acculturated being. >Putting all personal agendas aside, when was the last time any of you >looked >at yourselves critically and admitted to yourselves who you really are. >Who >is playing God here? None of us know more than the person next to us. I >am >the first to say that I know nothing more that the "Illiterates" Mr. Muro >refers to. They are not less literate than you and you not more than them. >Everyone reads the world a certain way. Literacy is not a language only of >letters; it includes that which is seen, heard, felt, and perceived. We >are >ignorant to think that progress lies only in the written word. Everyone is >a "foreigner" or outsider, including you Mr. Muro and Ms. Tanya and Ms. >Sissy. We all don't belong somewhere (whether it is in a certain family, >neighborhood, or social club). Don't forget this idea, you are not alien >to >it. Or has it been so long that you haven't felt like a "foreigner" or >outsider in any situation. This is where our faults lie. We alienate >ourselves from those experiences we attribute to others. If we thought of >ourselves like those we claim to help, then we would be more aware of the >rhetoric that Mr. Muro has so attacked. Anyway, I could go on forever, but >I have work to do. I am only a student, So I don't claim to be right, but >I'd rather be a student for life than a teacher who is not willing to admit >when they don't know much. > >Eugenio Longoria Saenz > >-----Original Message----- >From: nifl-esl@nifl.gov [mailto:nifl-esl@nifl.gov] On Behalf Of Sissy >Kegley >Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2004 10:14 AM >To: Multiple recipients of list >Subject: [NIFL-ESL:10134] Re: layers of meaning > >Tanya, > >I heard you say that your intention was not to be offensive. I respect >that. > >I am in agreement with what Andres says. > >I happen to think that what he says is important enough that I wish he'd >made his point differently because, in my opinion, he's opened himself >up to an array of accusations. > >On the one hand, I would not be surprised if you felt his message >conveys a lot of assumptions about you and your intention. > >But, if we take you personally out of his analysis, and look critically >at the reality he is describing, he has hit the nail on the head. I can >say this based on my own years of experience. > >And, finally, his closing definition of racism is important. As I said, >I do respect your assertion that your intention was not to be offensive. >However, in one of my classes last month, there was unanimous consent >that certain words, including "foreigner", were offensive; in this case, >we can see that regardless of intention, the interpretation is racist. > >This is important stuff, and in my opinion, both Janet and Andres have >each gone out on limb to address it. We all have a lot to learn from >them. > >Sissy Kegley >ESOL/Adult Education >(301) 588-4333 home office >(301) 467-5364 cellular >sissy.kegley@verizon.net > > >-----Original Message----- >From: nifl-esl@nifl.gov [mailto:nifl-esl@nifl.gov] On Behalf Of >AndresMuro@aol.com >Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2004 9:38 AM >To: Multiple recipients of list >Subject: [NIFL-ESL:10133] Re: layers of meaning > >.but you are afraid of driving in the same roads with them. > >I believe that you live in florida, am I right? They are there to pick >your oranges. they are recruited from southern Mexico and Central >America to work for menial wages. They don't have health insurance, >don't collect retirement and work ridiculous hours for nothing. They >also go to school because they are making an effort to improve their >conditions. > >Nobody complains about the orange juice that they drink the fresh fruits >that they eat, that their tolilettes area clean, they children have >caring nannies, that their yards are clean and well maintained or that >the kitchens are clean, laundry is done beds are made and dinner is >served when they come home from work. In fact, nobody ever mentions that >"these illiterates" do all these things. > >However, people are quick to mention that they don't want to drive on >the same roads, or that they refuse to learn "our language", or that >they deliver babies in "our hospitals" spending "our tax money", or that >they are lazy drunks and all other kinds of racist bs. Well then, if >they are so deffective, why are so many wealthy Americans willing to >hire them. they could instead, hire US citizens, pay them minimum wage, >social security, health insurance and report them in thier taxes. > >BTW, racism is not defined by the intention of the person spouting >racist stuff, but by the interpretation of the oppressed. > >Andres > >In a message dated 3/30/2004 6:05:29 AM Eastern Standard Time, >ttweeton@comcast.net writes: > > >Janet, of course I certainly don't mean to be offensive. That is not my >intent at all. My ESOL class is a Pre-literate class. In my particular >class, most have never been to school in their own countries, never >taken up a pencil. "Buying" a driver's licence as well as a social >security number has been a common practice around this part of the >country. > > > >Tanya Tweeton > >ESOL and GED Programs > >Fort Lauderdale, Florida > >> Tanya > >> > >> I'm wondering if you have a sense of the weight and tone of your post > > >> here. For many, a word like foreigner carries the implication that > >> someone doesn't belong in a particular place; and last I knew, > >> driving and using a language were two very separate sets of skills. > >> > >> If you re-read what you've written here, I'm wondering if you might > >> see what this strikes me - and maybe others - as offensive and > >> anti-immigrant. I don't think that's your intention, but I do > >> believe that our words carry weight and deliver messages that may or > >> may not convey our intentions. > >> > >> Janet Isserlis > >> > >> > >> >I would like to leave you all with just a thought about the reasons > >> >for teaching English and WHY foreigners need to learn our language, > >> >(not just to come to live in our country, living here without it,) > >> >as you travel on your way. I have an older student in my class who > >> >can neither write her name correctly nor her address. She doesn't > >> >remember it, daily I ask....... She can't read period.... However I > > >> >discovered this week that she has a driver's licence and is driving > >> >a car......... I am trying to discover where she drives exactly so I > > >> >can head the other way!! Aren't you all glad you don't live in our > >> >county!! :) > >> >Tanya Tweeton > >> > > > > >-- >go here: www.geocities.com/andresmuro/art.html > > _________________________________________________________________ Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfee® Security. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963
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