Return-Path: <nifl-esl@literacy.nifl.gov> Received: from literacy (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by literacy.nifl.gov (8.10.2/8.10.2) with SMTP id i2UIIFm28473; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 13:18:15 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 13:18:15 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <BAY17-F668o7e3d52tg00024311@hotmail.com> Errors-To: listowner@literacy.nifl.gov Reply-To: nifl-esl@literacy.nifl.gov Originator: nifl-esl@literacy.nifl.gov Sender: nifl-esl@literacy.nifl.gov Precedence: bulk From: "Susan Ryan" <susanefl@hotmail.com> To: Multiple recipients of list <nifl-esl@literacy.nifl.gov> Subject: [NIFL-ESL:10140] Re: layers of meaning X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0c -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Status: O Content-Length: 8054 Lines: 185 If I travel to a foreign ( to me) country, to the inhabitants there I am a foreigner. I do not find this offensive at all. You could take amost any word; put a certain tone or slant to it, and be offensive. However, the meaning of the word "foreigner" is not offensive. We are all foreigners" at some time. Susan >From: "Eugenio Longoria" <ezl109@psu.edu> >Reply-To: nifl-esl@nifl.gov >To: Multiple recipients of list <nifl-esl@literacy.nifl.gov> >Subject: [NIFL-ESL:10135] Re: layers of meaning >Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 10:47:53 -0500 (EST) > >I can't believe this conversation. I never really like to post anything, >but I guess today my tolerance level is a bit low. In life you cannot have >just one perspective; you have to have many. I am a foreigner and like >being one. I like to stand out from the mass of acculturated beings that >this country is. But, many times I just like to fit in as well as I can. >I >walk both roads never at once, but alternately. I have to. It is not that >I am living two lives, I am living one. But this life is full of events >that I have to navigate through. I navigate through each one as best as I >can, sometimes as a foreigner and sometimes as an acculturated being. >Putting all personal agendas aside, when was the last time any of you >looked >at yourselves critically and admitted to yourselves who you really are. >Who >is playing God here? None of us know more than the person next to us. I >am >the first to say that I know nothing more that the "Illiterates" Mr. Muro >refers to. They are not less literate than you and you not more than them. >Everyone reads the world a certain way. Literacy is not a language only of >letters; it includes that which is seen, heard, felt, and perceived. We >are >ignorant to think that progress lies only in the written word. Everyone is >a "foreigner" or outsider, including you Mr. Muro and Ms. Tanya and Ms. >Sissy. We all don't belong somewhere (whether it is in a certain family, >neighborhood, or social club). Don't forget this idea, you are not alien >to >it. Or has it been so long that you haven't felt like a "foreigner" or >outsider in any situation. This is where our faults lie. We alienate >ourselves from those experiences we attribute to others. If we thought of >ourselves like those we claim to help, then we would be more aware of the >rhetoric that Mr. Muro has so attacked. Anyway, I could go on forever, but >I have work to do. I am only a student, So I don't claim to be right, but >I'd rather be a student for life than a teacher who is not willing to admit >when they don't know much. > >Eugenio Longoria Saenz > >-----Original Message----- >From: nifl-esl@nifl.gov [mailto:nifl-esl@nifl.gov] On Behalf Of Sissy >Kegley >Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2004 10:14 AM >To: Multiple recipients of list >Subject: [NIFL-ESL:10134] Re: layers of meaning > >Tanya, > >I heard you say that your intention was not to be offensive. I respect >that. > >I am in agreement with what Andres says. > >I happen to think that what he says is important enough that I wish he'd >made his point differently because, in my opinion, he's opened himself >up to an array of accusations. > >On the one hand, I would not be surprised if you felt his message >conveys a lot of assumptions about you and your intention. > >But, if we take you personally out of his analysis, and look critically >at the reality he is describing, he has hit the nail on the head. I can >say this based on my own years of experience. > >And, finally, his closing definition of racism is important. As I said, >I do respect your assertion that your intention was not to be offensive. >However, in one of my classes last month, there was unanimous consent >that certain words, including "foreigner", were offensive; in this case, >we can see that regardless of intention, the interpretation is racist. > >This is important stuff, and in my opinion, both Janet and Andres have >each gone out on limb to address it. We all have a lot to learn from >them. > >Sissy Kegley >ESOL/Adult Education >(301) 588-4333 home office >(301) 467-5364 cellular >sissy.kegley@verizon.net > > >-----Original Message----- >From: nifl-esl@nifl.gov [mailto:nifl-esl@nifl.gov] On Behalf Of >AndresMuro@aol.com >Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2004 9:38 AM >To: Multiple recipients of list >Subject: [NIFL-ESL:10133] Re: layers of meaning > >.but you are afraid of driving in the same roads with them. > >I believe that you live in florida, am I right? They are there to pick >your oranges. they are recruited from southern Mexico and Central >America to work for menial wages. They don't have health insurance, >don't collect retirement and work ridiculous hours for nothing. They >also go to school because they are making an effort to improve their >conditions. > >Nobody complains about the orange juice that they drink the fresh fruits >that they eat, that their tolilettes area clean, they children have >caring nannies, that their yards are clean and well maintained or that >the kitchens are clean, laundry is done beds are made and dinner is >served when they come home from work. In fact, nobody ever mentions that >"these illiterates" do all these things. > >However, people are quick to mention that they don't want to drive on >the same roads, or that they refuse to learn "our language", or that >they deliver babies in "our hospitals" spending "our tax money", or that >they are lazy drunks and all other kinds of racist bs. Well then, if >they are so deffective, why are so many wealthy Americans willing to >hire them. they could instead, hire US citizens, pay them minimum wage, >social security, health insurance and report them in thier taxes. > >BTW, racism is not defined by the intention of the person spouting >racist stuff, but by the interpretation of the oppressed. > >Andres > >In a message dated 3/30/2004 6:05:29 AM Eastern Standard Time, >ttweeton@comcast.net writes: > > >Janet, of course I certainly don't mean to be offensive. That is not my >intent at all. My ESOL class is a Pre-literate class. In my particular >class, most have never been to school in their own countries, never >taken up a pencil. "Buying" a driver's licence as well as a social >security number has been a common practice around this part of the >country. > > > >Tanya Tweeton > >ESOL and GED Programs > >Fort Lauderdale, Florida > >> Tanya > >> > >> I'm wondering if you have a sense of the weight and tone of your post > > >> here. For many, a word like foreigner carries the implication that > >> someone doesn't belong in a particular place; and last I knew, > >> driving and using a language were two very separate sets of skills. > >> > >> If you re-read what you've written here, I'm wondering if you might > >> see what this strikes me - and maybe others - as offensive and > >> anti-immigrant. I don't think that's your intention, but I do > >> believe that our words carry weight and deliver messages that may or > >> may not convey our intentions. > >> > >> Janet Isserlis > >> > >> > >> >I would like to leave you all with just a thought about the reasons > >> >for teaching English and WHY foreigners need to learn our language, > >> >(not just to come to live in our country, living here without it,) > >> >as you travel on your way. I have an older student in my class who > >> >can neither write her name correctly nor her address. She doesn't > >> >remember it, daily I ask....... She can't read period.... However I > > >> >discovered this week that she has a driver's licence and is driving > >> >a car......... I am trying to discover where she drives exactly so I > > >> >can head the other way!! Aren't you all glad you don't live in our > >> >county!! :) > >> >Tanya Tweeton > >> > > > > >-- >go here: www.geocities.com/andresmuro/art.html > > _________________________________________________________________ Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfee® Security. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963
This archive was generated by hypermail 2b30 : Thu Dec 23 2004 - 09:46:44 EST