Return-Path: <nifl-esl@literacy.nifl.gov> Received: from literacy (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by literacy.nifl.gov (8.10.2/8.10.2) with SMTP id i2UHIqm24361; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 12:18:52 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 12:18:52 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <20040330171453.49089.qmail@web21110.mail.yahoo.com> Errors-To: listowner@literacy.nifl.gov Reply-To: nifl-esl@literacy.nifl.gov Originator: nifl-esl@literacy.nifl.gov Sender: nifl-esl@literacy.nifl.gov Precedence: bulk From: Colleen Shaughnessy <leenhd78@yahoo.com> To: Multiple recipients of list <nifl-esl@literacy.nifl.gov> Subject: [NIFL-ESL:10138] Re: layers of meaning X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0c -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Status: O Content-Length: 7962 Lines: 258 Thank you Eugenio, especially for these words: "Literacy is not a language only of letters; it includes that which is seen, heard, felt, and perceived." -Colleen --- Eugenio Longoria <ezl109@psu.edu> wrote: > I can't believe this conversation. I never really > like to post anything, > but I guess today my tolerance level is a bit low. > In life you cannot have > just one perspective; you have to have many. I am a > foreigner and like > being one. I like to stand out from the mass of > acculturated beings that > this country is. But, many times I just like to fit > in as well as I can. I > walk both roads never at once, but alternately. I > have to. It is not that > I am living two lives, I am living one. But this > life is full of events > that I have to navigate through. I navigate through > each one as best as I > can, sometimes as a foreigner and sometimes as an > acculturated being. > Putting all personal agendas aside, when was the > last time any of you looked > at yourselves critically and admitted to yourselves > who you really are. Who > is playing God here? None of us know more than the > person next to us. I am > the first to say that I know nothing more that the > "Illiterates" Mr. Muro > refers to. They are not less literate than you and > you not more than them. > Everyone reads the world a certain way. Literacy is > not a language only of > letters; it includes that which is seen, heard, > felt, and perceived. We are > ignorant to think that progress lies only in the > written word. Everyone is > a "foreigner" or outsider, including you Mr. Muro > and Ms. Tanya and Ms. > Sissy. We all don't belong somewhere (whether it is > in a certain family, > neighborhood, or social club). Don't forget this > idea, you are not alien to > it. Or has it been so long that you haven't felt > like a "foreigner" or > outsider in any situation. This is where our faults > lie. We alienate > ourselves from those experiences we attribute to > others. If we thought of > ourselves like those we claim to help, then we would > be more aware of the > rhetoric that Mr. Muro has so attacked. Anyway, I > could go on forever, but > I have work to do. I am only a student, So I don't > claim to be right, but > I'd rather be a student for life than a teacher who > is not willing to admit > when they don't know much. > > Eugenio Longoria Saenz > > -----Original Message----- > From: nifl-esl@nifl.gov [mailto:nifl-esl@nifl.gov] > On Behalf Of Sissy Kegley > Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2004 10:14 AM > To: Multiple recipients of list > Subject: [NIFL-ESL:10134] Re: layers of meaning > > Tanya, > > I heard you say that your intention was not to be > offensive. I respect > that. > > I am in agreement with what Andres says. > > I happen to think that what he says is important > enough that I wish he'd > made his point differently because, in my opinion, > he's opened himself > up to an array of accusations. > > On the one hand, I would not be surprised if you > felt his message > conveys a lot of assumptions about you and your > intention. > > But, if we take you personally out of his analysis, > and look critically > at the reality he is describing, he has hit the nail > on the head. I can > say this based on my own years of experience. > > And, finally, his closing definition of racism is > important. As I said, > I do respect your assertion that your intention was > not to be offensive. > However, in one of my classes last month, there was > unanimous consent > that certain words, including "foreigner", were > offensive; in this case, > we can see that regardless of intention, the > interpretation is racist. > > This is important stuff, and in my opinion, both > Janet and Andres have > each gone out on limb to address it. We all have a > lot to learn from > them. > > Sissy Kegley > ESOL/Adult Education > (301) 588-4333 home office > (301) 467-5364 cellular > sissy.kegley@verizon.net > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nifl-esl@nifl.gov [mailto:nifl-esl@nifl.gov] > On Behalf Of > AndresMuro@aol.com > Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2004 9:38 AM > To: Multiple recipients of list > Subject: [NIFL-ESL:10133] Re: layers of meaning > > .but you are afraid of driving in the same roads > with them. > > I believe that you live in florida, am I right? They > are there to pick > your oranges. they are recruited from southern > Mexico and Central > America to work for menial wages. They don't have > health insurance, > don't collect retirement and work ridiculous hours > for nothing. They > also go to school because they are making an effort > to improve their > conditions. > > Nobody complains about the orange juice that they > drink the fresh fruits > that they eat, that their tolilettes area clean, > they children have > caring nannies, that their yards are clean and well > maintained or that > the kitchens are clean, laundry is done beds are > made and dinner is > served when they come home from work. In fact, > nobody ever mentions that > "these illiterates" do all these things. > > However, people are quick to mention that they don't > want to drive on > the same roads, or that they refuse to learn "our > language", or that > they deliver babies in "our hospitals" spending "our > tax money", or that > they are lazy drunks and all other kinds of racist > bs. Well then, if > they are so deffective, why are so many wealthy > Americans willing to > hire them. they could instead, hire US citizens, pay > them minimum wage, > social security, health insurance and report them in > thier taxes. > > BTW, racism is not defined by the intention of the > person spouting > racist stuff, but by the interpretation of the > oppressed. > > Andres > > In a message dated 3/30/2004 6:05:29 AM Eastern > Standard Time, > ttweeton@comcast.net writes: > > >Janet, of course I certainly don't mean to be > offensive. That is not my > intent at all. My ESOL class is a Pre-literate > class. In my particular > class, most have never been to school in their own > countries, never > taken up a pencil. "Buying" a �driver's licence as > well as �a social > security number has been a common practice around > this part of the > country. > > > >Tanya Tweeton > >ESOL and GED Programs > >Fort Lauderdale, Florida > >> Tanya > >> > >> I'm wondering if you have a sense of the weight > and tone of your post > > >> here. �For many, a word like foreigner carries > the implication that > >> someone doesn't belong in a particular place; and > last I knew, > >> driving and using a language were two very > separate sets of skills. > >> > >> If you re-read what you've written here, I'm > wondering if you might > >> see what this strikes me - and maybe others - as > offensive and > >> anti-immigrant. �I don't think that's your > intention, but I do > >> believe that our words carry weight and deliver > messages that may or > >> may not convey our intentions. > >> > >> Janet Isserlis > >> > >> > >> >I would like to leave you all with just a > thought about the reasons > >> >for teaching English and WHY foreigners need to > learn our language, > >> >(not just to come to live in our country, living > �here without it,) > >> >as you travel on your way. I have an older > student in my class who > >> >can neither write her name correctly nor her > address. She doesn't > >> >remember it, �daily I ask....... She can't read > period.... However I > > >> >discovered this week that she has a driver's > licence and is driving > >> >a car......... I am trying to discover where she > drives exactly so I > > >> >can head the other way!! Aren't you all glad you > don't live in our > >> >county!! :) > >> >Tanya Tweeton > >> > > > > > -- > go here: www.geocities.com/andresmuro/art.html > > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time. http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
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