Forrest, et al,

I am a good example of "beyond math challenged." I was the oldest person in my high school graduating class, primarily because of algebra and geometry. I started out in the university in zoology. I had to quit, because of failure to balance freshman chemistry equations and inability to take such required courses such as biochemistry and genetics. People kept saying that it was an "attitude thing," as I was already publishing in the field of herpetology, while still in high school. I was able to change majors to English/Spanish in the university and fortunately was permitted to substitute Latin for required math. I got my degree finally and after going into ESL didn't even think about graduate school because of the math portion in the GRE. I have had a very good career in ESL, have published articles and textbooks, done management work and am functional in several languages. Years after all of this started I was at a TexTESOL meeting in San Antonio and the subject was right and left hemisphere predominance. I took a test and turned out to be fourth from the end on the right side group of some 80 people. When they did a results analysis, it turned out that I was a creative person who saw things, including new languages, holistically before details registered properly. There is probably an empty spot on my left hemisphere area! This explained everything to my satisfaction. Left hemisphere predominant persons have step-by-step minds and become engineers, scientists, etc. Right hemisphere predominant people are abstract artists, natural musicians, etc. and learn everything differently. In a long career, I have fortunately never had to use anything beyond elementary arithmetic. My wife keeps the checkbook, as she is predominately on the left side, because even at that level I mess up. The problem is that we are in a left-hemisphere education system. One of the factors that should be considered is hemispheric testing of all school children and adults and adjustment of their curricula and goals. That could solve some of the problems. Persons who are in the middle of the right/left predominance usually do O.K. if they have motivation also. Persons who are far right or far left will all have some areas of weakness. By the way, I had some really competent math teachers and tutors, who I inadvertently drove crazy.

Ted
www.tedklein-ESL.com


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Forrest Chisman 
  To: barbara.jacala at guamcc.edu ; 'The Assessment Discussion List' 
  Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2009 8:35 PM
  Subject: [Assessment 1637] Re: Reply to Questions 1 and 2


  I agree with Tom in all of this. Like it or not, colleges require a reasonable level of math including algebra for entering students. Otherwise they go into developmental math. So we should just "get over it" and figure out ways to teach this to GED and ESL students. If we want to change college admissions requirements, that's a separate crusade. In fact many people think they're too low - including me.

   

  Forrest Chisman   

   

  From: assessment-bounces at nifl.gov [mailto:assessment-bounces at nifl.gov] On Behalf Of Barbara Jacala
  Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2009 7:46 PM
  To: 'The Assessment Discussion List'
  Subject: [Assessment 1635] Re: Reply to Questions 1 and 2

   

  Math is the favorite subject of my children. One child went to University Laboratory High School in Champaign, Illinois where she came across math author Donald Cohen. He teaches math to children and has been successful in teaching them calculus at elementary level. His website is http://www.mathman.biz/ Maybe we could use his strategy in adult education?

  Barbara Jacala


------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  From: assessment-bounces at nifl.gov [mailto:assessment-bounces at nifl.gov] On Behalf Of Melinda Hefner
  Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2009 8:16 AM
  To: The Assessment Discussion List
  Subject: [Assessment 1621] Re: Reply to Questions 1 and 2

   

  Tom, you articulated my own thoughts very well!  Thank you!  

   

  GED level algebra is actually quite basic and is generally perceived as a fundamental math needed by all students.  It has many simple, real-life applications even though some may not think of the calculations used as being algebraic, i.e. recipes, drug dosage calculations, purchasing, painting and wallpapering, etc. Teaching/facilitating the connection between algebra and real life applications often helps de-mystify algebra and decreases the angst that some students have when they "hit the algebra wall".  Additionally and, in my opinion, as important, skills necessary for mastering algebra are among necessary 21st century skills, i.e. 

    1.. problem solving 
    2.. accessing, processing, and synthesizing information 
    3.. critical thinking and reasoning skills, 
    4.. abstract thinking, 
    5.. self-directed learning, etc. 
  Just a few thoughts to offer....

   

   

  Melinda

   

  Melinda M. Hefner
  Director, Literacy Support Services

  Basic Skills Department
  Caldwell Community College and Technical Institute
  2855 Hickory Blvd.
  Hudson, North Carolina 28638
  Office: 828.726.2245

  FAX:    828.726.2266

   

  >>> On 2/3/2009 at 3:01 pm, in message <29CFEE83EDF92741BF0ED3F5D9BC7E87FE753E at exchange2.doe.mass.edu>, "Mechem, Thompson" <tmechem at doe.mass.edu> wrote:

  And to support you, Marie, I come back to my pet obsession of the moment, which is the ACCUPLACER: without sound algebra skills, GED grads are doomed to the abyss of developmental math courses and/or an often futile struggle with college-level math. Other states with different college placement tests have the exact same problem. So lament it or not, algebra is the world our students must be able to navigate through to access post-secondary education and training.

  Tom Mechem
  GED State Chief Examiner
  Department of Elementary & Secondary Education
  Commonwealth of Massachusetts
  781-338-6621
  "GED to Ph.D."


  -----Original Message-----
  From: assessment-bounces at nifl.gov [mailto:assessment-bounces at nifl.gov]On
  Behalf Of Marie Cora
  Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2009 2:35 PM
  To: 'The Assessment Discussion List'
  Subject: [Assessment 1596] Re: Reply to Questions 1 and 2


  Hi Kathy, Roger, and everyone,

  While I also am math challenged, and I feel competent in my daily math
  skills, I guess I would argue that all this depends entirely on the
  context and the needs of the student.  There are an awful lot of careers
  and jobs that depend on the individual having a good command of higher
  order math, and there are a lot of people interested in this type of
  math (some who do not even realize it).  

  But perhaps this is what you are saying - that maybe if the curriculum
  were better constructed, like a ladder say, then the people who do want
  to pursue math will, and in greater numbers.

  Is that what you're saying?

  Thanks,

  Marie Cora
  Assessment Discussion List Moderator


  -----Original Message-----
  From: assessment-bounces at nifl.gov [mailto:assessment-bounces at nifl.gov]
  On Behalf Of Ellithorpe, Kathy
  Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2009 10:53 AM
  To: The Assessment Discussion List
  Subject: [Assessment 1578] Re: Reply to Questions 1 and 2



  Bravo, Roger.  Just put me in the shootong line.  I have made it very
  well thank you without the knowledge of math beyond basic algebra.  I
  probably did have the knowledge at one time-but as the old saying
  goes..."use it or lose it"   In most daily lives higher order math is
  just not necessary.  Problem IS with the curriculm-not the learners...


  -----Original Message-----
  From: assessment-bounces at nifl.gov [mailto:assessment-bounces at nifl.gov]
  On Behalf Of nqr at mac.com
  Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2009 8:35 AM
  To: The Assessment Discussion List
  Cc: The Assessment Discussion List
  Subject: [Assessment 1577] Re: Reply to Questions 1 and 2

  Tom  is, as usual, correct.  My concern is that some students could and
  should be able to gain a certificate or, perhaps,  even an Associate's
  without a knowledge of algebra.  

  I have a Ph D and slogged through three grad course in statistics.
  However, if you put a gun to my head and ordered me to solve an equation
  with two unknowns I would tell you to shoot me.

  I was a Tenured Full Professor at the University of Nebraska as well
  managed world-wide customer research for IBM without knowing how to
  solve that sort of equation.  

  Perhaps, the problem is with the curriculum and not the learners.  

  Roger Berg
  11 Hall Street
  Plymouth, MA 02360
  508 746 6345
  roger_berg at mac.com


  On Tuesday, February 03, 2009, at 09:56AM, "Mechem, Thompson"
  <tmechem at doe.mass.edu> wrote:
  >Stephanie, et al.---
  > 
  >In our state we also find that the low academic skill level of GED
  diploma recipients is, if not the biggest barrier to post-secondary
  education, at least a very major one. A huge majority of GED students
  end up in college developmental courses from which they never emerge.
  The unindicted co-conspirator in all this is the ACCUPLACER, the
  placement test that all applicants to Massachusetts state colleges must
  take. Our data shows that while GED grads do very well on the reading
  part of the ACCUPLACER and quite well on the Writing in terms of
  avoiding developmental courses, on the the Math they do very, very
  poorly. There is no correlation between GED math and ACCUPLACER/college
  Algebra: a person can get an 800 on the GED math test and still test
  into developmental math at a community college. I am working with GED
  math teachers around Massachusetts to develop a GED curriculum that will
  allow students to pass the GED test with all due speed and also pass the
  ACCUPLACER math t!
  est.
  >
  >Tom Mechem
  >GED State Chief Examiner
  >Department of Elementary & Secondary Education Commonwealth of 
  >Massachusetts
  >781-338-6621
  >"GED to Ph.D." 
  >
  >-----Original Message-----
  >From: assessment-bounces at nifl.gov 
  >[mailto:assessment-bounces at nifl.gov]On Behalf Of Stephanie Moran
  >Sent: Monday, February 02, 2009 3:28 PM
  >To: 'The Assessment Discussion List'
  >Subject: [Assessment 1563] Reply to Questions 1 and 2
  >
  >
  >
  >1.        The low skill level of many students trying to transition
  from GED to college may be the biggest barrier. We are part of the SUN
  grant/College Connection grant here in Colorado, so we are in the middle
  of  doing exactly this-working in an intensive 8-week program that is
  attempting to help our GED grads accelerate their skill levels in
  reading, writing, math, study skills, critical thinking-and learn how to
  "do college" as well as explore career options. Our students are
  dedicated, but many nevertheless lack more sophisticated skills. One of
  our grant goals is to help them successfully pass through their current
  remedial course, and if they are at the 030 or 060 level, to perhaps
  skip over the next one into the higher 060/090 or into credit-bearing
  courses altogether.
  >
  >--Study skills of students-many GED students are episodic in their
  attendance and can still pull off a solid GED score, but college demands
  consistent and focused show-up-and-suit-up skills that may be unfamiliar
  if not downright foreign to GED grads.
  >
  >--Another barrier is that some teachers perceive their primary role as
  helping students earn the GED and although such teachers often support
  post-GED studies, they don't want to push students or focus on
  higher-level skills. This creates a de facto tracking system, and it may
  be that centers will need to formalize such tracking so that students
  who know they want to go on to post-GED studies can work with those
  teachers.
  >
  >2.  Resources:  Having GED teachers who also teach as adjuncts for
  community colleges is hugely helpful because we understand both systems
  and what is required for a student to be successful in a college
  environment; we also can tutor and advocate in a way that teachers who
  teach at only one level may not be able or willing to do as effectively.
  >
  >--THE SUN/ College Connection grant has given us time and funding to
  develop curriculum, to work in close collaboration with other
  teacher/team members, and to introduce this approach to the community
  colleges.
  >
  > 
  >
  >Stephanie Moran
  >
  >Durango, CO
  >
  > 
  >
  >From: assessment-bounces at nifl.gov [mailto:assessment-bounces at nifl.gov] 
  >On Behalf Of Marie Cora
  >Sent: Monday, February 02, 2009 7:52 AM
  >To: Assessment at nifl.gov
  >Subject: [Assessment 1557] Transitions Discussion begins today!
  >
  > 
  >
  >Good morning, afternoon and evening to you all.
  >
  > 
  >
  >Today begins our week-long discussion on Transitions in Adult
  Education.  
  >
  > 
  >
  >For full information on this discussion, go to:
  >
  > 
  >
  >http://www.nifl.gov/lincs/discussions/assessment/09transitions.html
  >
  > 
  >
  >I have some questions for subscribers:
  >
  > 
  >
  >1.  What seem to pose the biggest obstacles for your program when
  trying to successfully transition adult students from one education
  level to another, or from education to the workforce?  What does your
  program try to do about this?
  >
  > 
  >
  >2.  What resources have you found helpful when trying to successfully
  transition a student?  How have they been helpful?
  >
  > 
  >
  >3.  Please comment on the Introduction and/or Recommended Preparations
  for this Discussion, found at the announcement URL above.
  >
  > 
  >
  >Please post your questions and share your experiences now.  
  >
  > 
  >
  >Thanks!!
  >
  > 
  >
  >Marie Cora
  >
  >Assessment Discussion List Moderator
  >
  > 
  >
  >
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