Well, I think erring on the side of too much of any kind of education is
always a good idea. After all, it's EDUCATION. But you're right that, in AE,
the level of math taught is practically speaking a certification question:
enough to get them into college for students seeking to make transitions,
enough to help them handle VESL programs, if they go that way, etc. 

With regard to student assessment and program evaluation, my views are TOO
well published. See for example ANY of the reports that bear my name under
the ESL section of the CAAL website (www.caalusa.org). Basically, I don't
think there is any way in which we can know what we are accomplishing, let
alone improve it, without longitudinal (5-7 years) records of student
performance. And the only way to get THESE is by pre-testing on entry and
post-testing at each semester break (or equivalent) and probably more often.
Most standardized assessments aren't considered valid by their publishers
until about 60 hours. But I find that many (most?) teachers don't think
those tests accurately reflect what they teach and what students learn -- in
part because of curricular differences, and in part because of inherent
limits of the tests. I think they're right. Thus, many (most?) programs use
locally constructed tests/metrics for program management purposes. I think
that's okay as long as they are well-constructed to reflect curricula, and
as long as the curricula are linked to some external validator (like state
curricular guidelines and/or college entry requirements). I think it is very
problematical if the program relies on individual teacher assessments alone.
The teachers ion a program should collegially agree on performance measures
-- perhaps in collaboration with other local/state programs. At best that's
a stopgap, however -- although it's better than the available alternatives.
What we really need is a Manhattan Project to develop a more flexible
assessment system (not a single test) for ALL of AE.

Forrest            

-----Original Message-----
From: assessment-bounces at nifl.gov [mailto:assessment-bounces at nifl.gov] On
Behalf Of Michael Tate
Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2009 6:16 PM
To: The Assessment Discussion List
Subject: [Assessment 1631] Re: Reply to Questions 1 and 2

Hi Forrest!  Thank you for participating on the listserv and for your years
of leadership. 

With the technology we currently have, we could customize instruction for
students (on-line or F2F).  Then, I think Forrest's question would be
appropriate.  

When most of our schools are focused on standardization, "how much math"
really is an accreditation question.  We teachers and administrators decide
for students. And, if what we do here in Washington is representative, if we
err, we err on the side of too much math rather than just enough.  

Here, we have decided that algebra 2 is the standard for every high school
graduate. Do you see people in the near future needing that skill level?  Is
there a parabola in everyone's future? :) I'd really like to hear what you
have to say about student assessment's role in program evaluation.

Michael Tate  

-----Original Message-----
From: assessment-bounces at nifl.gov [mailto:assessment-bounces at nifl.gov] On
Behalf Of Forrest Chisman
Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2009 1:44 PM
To: 'The Assessment Discussion List'
Subject: [Assessment 1613] Re: Reply to Questions 1 and 2

How much math is enough? For adult education students, enough to get into
college without placing in developmental math. Those who pursue majors
requiring more math skills will take advanced math classes in college -- as
they now do.

Forrest Chisman 

-----Original Message-----
From: assessment-bounces at nifl.gov [mailto:assessment-bounces at nifl.gov] On
Behalf Of Ellithorpe, Kathy
Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2009 3:07 PM
To: The Assessment Discussion List
Subject: [Assessment 1599] Re: Reply to Questions 1 and 2

Marie-Thanks you so much for your comments.  After a 23 year teaching
career at all grade levels I do know that math as a whole is the subject
we seem to struggle with the most.  As an adult educator for the past 8
years, I know that math is the one subject that my students actually
fear.  Whether this comes from past experience, i.e. failure , or just
plain old math anxiety - the one subject that adult learners almost
always need the most help with is math. We start at the bottom of the
ladder with them.  My approach is actually one using the ladder
metaphore.  "If you miss a step on the ladder it's difficult almost
impossible to make it to the next level."  
As an educator (not a math major) I do wonder just how much math is
enough math.  Just where do we draw the line as far as math education
goes in most career education? Is it valid to assume that a general
business major needs as much math as an engineer? Or even the same kind
of math?  If a student learns that kind of math and does not use it on a
regular basis, will he/she lose what was learned?  It has been my
experience that as adults we retain the kind of math that we use the
most.
Do we need to construct curriculum to address careers?

-----Original Message-----
From: assessment-bounces at nifl.gov [mailto:assessment-bounces at nifl.gov]
On Behalf Of Marie Cora
Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2009 12:35 PM
To: 'The Assessment Discussion List'
Subject: [Assessment 1596] Re: Reply to Questions 1 and 2

Hi Kathy, Roger, and everyone,

While I also am math challenged, and I feel competent in my daily math
skills, I guess I would argue that all this depends entirely on the
context and the needs of the student.  There are an awful lot of careers
and jobs that depend on the individual having a good command of higher
order math, and there are a lot of people interested in this type of
math (some who do not even realize it).  

But perhaps this is what you are saying - that maybe if the curriculum
were better constructed, like a ladder say, then the people who do want
to pursue math will, and in greater numbers.

Is that what you're saying?

Thanks,

Marie Cora
Assessment Discussion List Moderator


-----Original Message-----
From: assessment-bounces at nifl.gov [mailto:assessment-bounces at nifl.gov]
On Behalf Of Ellithorpe, Kathy
Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2009 10:53 AM
To: The Assessment Discussion List
Subject: [Assessment 1578] Re: Reply to Questions 1 and 2



Bravo, Roger.  Just put me in the shootong line.  I have made it very
well thank you without the knowledge of math beyond basic algebra.  I
probably did have the knowledge at one time-but as the old saying
goes..."use it or lose it"   In most daily lives higher order math is
just not necessary.  Problem IS with the curriculm-not the learners...
 

-----Original Message-----
From: assessment-bounces at nifl.gov [mailto:assessment-bounces at nifl.gov]
On Behalf Of nqr at mac.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2009 8:35 AM
To: The Assessment Discussion List
Cc: The Assessment Discussion List
Subject: [Assessment 1577] Re: Reply to Questions 1 and 2

Tom  is, as usual, correct.  My concern is that some students could and
should be able to gain a certificate or, perhaps,  even an Associate's
without a knowledge of algebra.  

I have a Ph D and slogged through three grad course in statistics.
However, if you put a gun to my head and ordered me to solve an equation
with two unknowns I would tell you to shoot me.

I was a Tenured Full Professor at the University of Nebraska as well
managed world-wide customer research for IBM without knowing how to
solve that sort of equation.  

Perhaps, the problem is with the curriculum and not the learners.  

Roger Berg
11 Hall Street
Plymouth, MA 02360
508 746 6345
roger_berg at mac.com

 
On Tuesday, February 03, 2009, at 09:56AM, "Mechem, Thompson"
<tmechem at doe.mass.edu> wrote:

>Stephanie, et al.---

> 

>In our state we also find that the low academic skill level of GED

diploma recipients is, if not the biggest barrier to post-secondary
education, at least a very major one. A huge majority of GED students
end up in college developmental courses from which they never emerge.
The unindicted co-conspirator in all this is the ACCUPLACER, the
placement test that all applicants to Massachusetts state colleges must
take. Our data shows that while GED grads do very well on the reading
part of the ACCUPLACER and quite well on the Writing in terms of
avoiding developmental courses, on the the Math they do very, very
poorly. There is no correlation between GED math and ACCUPLACER/college
Algebra: a person can get an 800 on the GED math test and still test
into developmental math at a community college. I am working with GED
math teachers around Massachusetts to develop a GED curriculum that will
allow students to pass the GED test with all due speed and also pass the
ACCUPLACER math t!
 est.

>

>Tom Mechem

>GED State Chief Examiner

>Department of Elementary & Secondary Education Commonwealth of 

>Massachusetts

>781-338-6621

>"GED to Ph.D." 

>

>-----Original Message-----

>From: assessment-bounces at nifl.gov

>[mailto:assessment-bounces at nifl.gov]On Behalf Of Stephanie Moran

>Sent: Monday, February 02, 2009 3:28 PM

>To: 'The Assessment Discussion List'

>Subject: [Assessment 1563] Reply to Questions 1 and 2

>

>

>

>1.        The low skill level of many students trying to transition

from GED to college may be the biggest barrier. We are part of the SUN
grant/College Connection grant here in Colorado, so we are in the middle
of  doing exactly this-working in an intensive 8-week program that is
attempting to help our GED grads accelerate their skill levels in
reading, writing, math, study skills, critical thinking-and learn how to
"do college" as well as explore career options. Our students are
dedicated, but many nevertheless lack more sophisticated skills. One of
our grant goals is to help them successfully pass through their current
remedial course, and if they are at the 030 or 060 level, to perhaps
skip over the next one into the higher 060/090 or into credit-bearing
courses altogether.

>

>--Study skills of students-many GED students are episodic in their

attendance and can still pull off a solid GED score, but college demands
consistent and focused show-up-and-suit-up skills that may be unfamiliar
if not downright foreign to GED grads.

>

>--Another barrier is that some teachers perceive their primary role as

helping students earn the GED and although such teachers often support
post-GED studies, they don't want to push students or focus on
higher-level skills. This creates a de facto tracking system, and it may
be that centers will need to formalize such tracking so that students
who know they want to go on to post-GED studies can work with those
teachers.

>

>2.  Resources:  Having GED teachers who also teach as adjuncts for

community colleges is hugely helpful because we understand both systems
and what is required for a student to be successful in a college
environment; we also can tutor and advocate in a way that teachers who
teach at only one level may not be able or willing to do as effectively.

>

>--THE SUN/ College Connection grant has given us time and funding to

develop curriculum, to work in close collaboration with other
teacher/team members, and to introduce this approach to the community
colleges.

>

> 

>

>Stephanie Moran

>

>Durango, CO

>

> 

>

>From: assessment-bounces at nifl.gov [mailto:assessment-bounces at nifl.gov]

>On Behalf Of Marie Cora

>Sent: Monday, February 02, 2009 7:52 AM

>To: Assessment at nifl.gov

>Subject: [Assessment 1557] Transitions Discussion begins today!

>

> 

>

>Good morning, afternoon and evening to you all.

>

> 

>

>Today begins our week-long discussion on Transitions in Adult

Education.  

>

> 

>

>For full information on this discussion, go to:

>

> 

>

>http://www.nifl.gov/lincs/discussions/assessment/09transitions.html

>

> 

>

>I have some questions for subscribers:

>

> 

>

>1.  What seem to pose the biggest obstacles for your program when

trying to successfully transition adult students from one education
level to another, or from education to the workforce?  What does your
program try to do about this?

>

> 

>

>2.  What resources have you found helpful when trying to successfully

transition a student?  How have they been helpful?

>

> 

>

>3.  Please comment on the Introduction and/or Recommended Preparations

for this Discussion, found at the announcement URL above.

>

> 

>

>Please post your questions and share your experiences now.  

>

> 

>

>Thanks!!

>

> 

>

>Marie Cora

>

>Assessment Discussion List Moderator

>

> 

>

>

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