Hi Kathy and everyone,

You have raised a point that Wendy Quinones noted to me when we were
initially organizing this discussion - she also is careful to pay
attention to the differences between these two groups.  

If you look in the Introduction in the Announcement
(http://www.nifl.gov/lincs/discussions/assessment/09transitions.html) 
Wendy noted the following two quotes:


'Native speakers tended to have relatively stronger "meaning-based
skills" as compared to "print-based skills," while non-native speakers
exhibited the opposite pattern. Chall (1991) reported similar findings.'

'Many second-language speakers in ABE classes had surprisingly low
levels of oral vocabulary in English (GE 2 to GE 4), despite their
fluent levels of conversational English. Similarly low levels of oral
vocabulary occurred among some inner-city young adults who were native
speakers.'

[Strucker, John. (May 1997).  What Silent Reading Tests Alone Can't Tell
You: Two Case Studies in Adult Reading Differences; see announcement]


What are your thoughts on this?  What resources do you use to identify
these differences?  What techniques, activities, strategies do you use
to work with these different groups?  Do you have folks from these two
groups in the same class or separate?  What do we need to better
identify the different needs of these two groups whose goal is the same:
to advance to a higher learning program or to work?

Thanks!

Marie

Marie Cora
Assessment Discussion List Moderator



-----Original Message-----
From: assessment-bounces at nifl.gov [mailto:assessment-bounces at nifl.gov]
On Behalf Of Ellithorpe, Kathy
Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2009 11:08 AM
To: The Assessment Discussion List
Subject: [Assessment 1579] Re: Reply to Questions 1 and 2


I think as we go through this discussion, we need to keep in mind that
ABE/GED students and ESL or ESOL learners are two entirely different
things.  I teach both and have different approaches to both.  It has
been my experience that GED/ABE learners who are NOT language learners
are generally with me because for one reason or another they didn't
finish high school and are now wanting to do that.  MOST of them have
had learning problems thoughout their school careers that were addressed
poorly or not at all. For many of them academic recovery is the answer.
Sometimes beginning at very elementary levels with basic skills.
Most ESL and language learners face very different barriers to
completion of a GED or high school diploma.Only one being the language
barrier.  Again-we begin at the beginning.  Reading and verbal language
usually far surpassed written language.  Math is usually very good to
whatever grade level they completed in their native school.  This is a
huge thing that we begin.  Each at his/her own level of understanding
and grade equivilent.  I don't know if there we are iin a "one size fits
all" educational field.  The only path to success is indiviualized
instruction.  Constant contact with the students.  I have cell phones
and work numbers for all.  If they don't show at class I am on the phone
with them wondering why.  I chase them down in the grocery store and
lure them back to class.  I make friends with all of them and have had
dinner in their homes.  I make instruction as personal as possible.


 

-----Original Message-----
From: assessment-bounces at nifl.gov [mailto:assessment-bounces at nifl.gov]
On Behalf Of nqr at mac.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2009 8:35 AM
To: The Assessment Discussion List
Cc: The Assessment Discussion List
Subject: [Assessment 1577] Re: Reply to Questions 1 and 2

Tom  is, as usual, correct.  My concern is that some students could and
should be able to gain a certificate or, perhaps,  even an Associate's
without a knowledge of algebra.  

I have a Ph D and slogged through three grad course in statistics.
However, if you put a gun to my head and ordered me to solve an equation
with two unknowns I would tell you to shoot me.

I was a Tenured Full Professor at the University of Nebraska as well
managed world-wide customer research for IBM without knowing how to
solve that sort of equation.  

Perhaps, the problem is with the curriculum and not the learners.  

Roger Berg
11 Hall Street
Plymouth, MA 02360
508 746 6345
roger_berg at mac.com

 
On Tuesday, February 03, 2009, at 09:56AM, "Mechem, Thompson"
<tmechem at doe.mass.edu> wrote:

>Stephanie, et al.---

> 

>In our state we also find that the low academic skill level of GED

diploma recipients is, if not the biggest barrier to post-secondary
education, at least a very major one. A huge majority of GED students
end up in college developmental courses from which they never emerge.
The unindicted co-conspirator in all this is the ACCUPLACER, the
placement test that all applicants to Massachusetts state colleges must
take. Our data shows that while GED grads do very well on the reading
part of the ACCUPLACER and quite well on the Writing in terms of
avoiding developmental courses, on the the Math they do very, very
poorly. There is no correlation between GED math and ACCUPLACER/college
Algebra: a person can get an 800 on the GED math test and still test
into developmental math at a community college. I am working with GED
math teachers around Massachusetts to develop a GED curriculum that will
allow students to pass the GED test with all due speed and also pass the
ACCUPLACER math t!
 est.

>

>Tom Mechem

>GED State Chief Examiner

>Department of Elementary & Secondary Education Commonwealth of 

>Massachusetts

>781-338-6621

>"GED to Ph.D." 

>

>-----Original Message-----

>From: assessment-bounces at nifl.gov 

>[mailto:assessment-bounces at nifl.gov]On Behalf Of Stephanie Moran

>Sent: Monday, February 02, 2009 3:28 PM

>To: 'The Assessment Discussion List'

>Subject: [Assessment 1563] Reply to Questions 1 and 2

>

>

>

>1.        The low skill level of many students trying to transition

from GED to college may be the biggest barrier. We are part of the SUN
grant/College Connection grant here in Colorado, so we are in the middle
of  doing exactly this-working in an intensive 8-week program that is
attempting to help our GED grads accelerate their skill levels in
reading, writing, math, study skills, critical thinking-and learn how to
"do college" as well as explore career options. Our students are
dedicated, but many nevertheless lack more sophisticated skills. One of
our grant goals is to help them successfully pass through their current
remedial course, and if they are at the 030 or 060 level, to perhaps
skip over the next one into the higher 060/090 or into credit-bearing
courses altogether.

>

>--Study skills of students-many GED students are episodic in their

attendance and can still pull off a solid GED score, but college demands
consistent and focused show-up-and-suit-up skills that may be unfamiliar
if not downright foreign to GED grads.

>

>--Another barrier is that some teachers perceive their primary role as

helping students earn the GED and although such teachers often support
post-GED studies, they don't want to push students or focus on
higher-level skills. This creates a de facto tracking system, and it may
be that centers will need to formalize such tracking so that students
who know they want to go on to post-GED studies can work with those
teachers.

>

>2.  Resources:  Having GED teachers who also teach as adjuncts for

community colleges is hugely helpful because we understand both systems
and what is required for a student to be successful in a college
environment; we also can tutor and advocate in a way that teachers who
teach at only one level may not be able or willing to do as effectively.

>

>--THE SUN/ College Connection grant has given us time and funding to

develop curriculum, to work in close collaboration with other
teacher/team members, and to introduce this approach to the community
colleges.

>

> 

>

>Stephanie Moran

>

>Durango, CO

>

> 

>

>From: assessment-bounces at nifl.gov [mailto:assessment-bounces at nifl.gov] 

>On Behalf Of Marie Cora

>Sent: Monday, February 02, 2009 7:52 AM

>To: Assessment at nifl.gov

>Subject: [Assessment 1557] Transitions Discussion begins today!

>

> 

>

>Good morning, afternoon and evening to you all.

>

> 

>

>Today begins our week-long discussion on Transitions in Adult

Education.  

>

> 

>

>For full information on this discussion, go to:

>

> 

>

>http://www.nifl.gov/lincs/discussions/assessment/09transitions.html

>

> 

>

>I have some questions for subscribers:

>

> 

>

>1.  What seem to pose the biggest obstacles for your program when

trying to successfully transition adult students from one education
level to another, or from education to the workforce?  What does your
program try to do about this?

>

> 

>

>2.  What resources have you found helpful when trying to successfully

transition a student?  How have they been helpful?

>

> 

>

>3.  Please comment on the Introduction and/or Recommended Preparations

for this Discussion, found at the announcement URL above.

>

> 

>

>Please post your questions and share your experiences now.  

>

> 

>

>Thanks!!

>

> 

>

>Marie Cora

>

>Assessment Discussion List Moderator

>

> 

>

>

-------------------------------
National Institute for Literacy
Assessment mailing list
Assessment at nifl.gov
To unsubscribe or change your subscription settings, please go to
http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/assessment
Email delivered to kathye at monte.k12.co.us
-------------------------------
National Institute for Literacy
Assessment mailing list
Assessment at nifl.gov
To unsubscribe or change your subscription settings, please go to
http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/assessment
Email delivered to marie.cora at hotspurpartners.com