My position is that language learning is language learning, period.  I have
responded to comments made here, by you and others, which counter my
position. If that exchange is of no interest then I will desist. But is
seems that you have remained quite active on this subject.

As to your questions;

Many of our learners are immigrants to English speaking countries or other
countries, and their needs are no different from those of other learners.
They want to improve in the language they are learning. I have no knowledge
of EFF but suspect it is just another bureaucratic distraction from the task
of language learning.

Our learners do what they want, and most of them do it free of charge. They
select what to listen to, and read, and which words and phrases to learn.
They speak with our tutors and submit writing for correction and communicate
with other members of the community on a host of issues surrounding language
and living in the language of their choice. They make sure they meet their
needs and the can consult with tutors and other members about their needs.

I do not normally pry as to outcomes but have heard from quite a few
individuals, including immigrants who were frustrated at government funded
ESL schools and after a few months with us felt more confident in English
and finally felt that they were improving., One told me that he went on to a
college and found a good job.


On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 10:59 AM, Michael A. Gyori
<mgyori at mauilanguage.com>wrote:


>  Hello Steve and all,

>

>

>

> Steve: I do appreciate that you are divulging more information about your

> practices and now perceive a reason to respond but also a need redirect the

> direction of this discussion.  Why redirect? Because continuing the

> discussion along current lines might create an endless “back and forth”

> without establishing a framework first.  We must define the domains within

> which we operate first.

>

>

>

> Let me put on the hat of the head of a foundation that wishes to donate one

> million dollars to help a school that can demonstrate unusual success in

> working with a large number of newcomer immigrants (irrespective of the

> country they have emigrated to and its dominant language), but is

> encountering severe fiscal challenges.  In applying for the grant, I would

> include the following questions:

>

>

>

> 1.      What percent and how many of your learners are newcomer immigrants

> who need to learn the dominant language of their adopted country and develop

> the associated sociocultural background knowledge to maneuver in it, so that

> they can realize the three adult roles as set out in EFF (Equipped for the

> Future, go to http://eff.cls.utk.edu/ for more information).  The three

> adult roles are (click on the *ctrl *key and click to go to the respective

> website):

>

>  Worker Role Map <http://eff.cls.utk.edu/fundamentals/role_map_worker.htm>

>

> Citizen and Community Member Role Map<http://eff.cls.utk.edu/fundamentals/role_map_ccm.htm>

>

> Parent and Family Member Role Map<http://eff.cls.utk.edu/fundamentals/role_map_family.htm>

>

> 2.      How do you go about ensuring that instruction is aligned to the

> needs of your learners, given that they need to build new lives in new

> surroundings?

>

> 3.      What specific life outcomes can you attribute to the instruction

> that occurs in your classes?  Please provide actual information about what

> your students are now doing, providing both quantitative and qualitative

> data.  *Note:* longitudinal tracking of your learners is necessary in

> order to provide documentable and verifiable responses.

>

> Perhaps this approach to the current discussion will shed more light on

> what works or doesn’t work in SL instruction (*not** *FL instruction)!

>

> Finally, my initial response to whether what you do might be effective with

> non- or barely literate adult learners (I’m talking about reading and

> writing literacy), my answer is likely not.  I totally agree that education

> is a process of (self-) discovery, in fact that’s exactly what *educare *means.

>  That said, adult non-readers almost always need instruction of a type that

> I do not discern you provide from what you have shared so far.

>

> I hope this helps turn the discussion into a more pertinent direction, also

> because NIFL is not concerned with visitors, travelers, or pursuers of

> intellectual interests,  but with U.S. residents (in the case of the AELL

> list, I’d say primarily newcomer immigrants) who need to attain life

> outcomes to convince funders that their moneys are well invested.

>

> Maureen:  as List Moderator, would you like to post a response to the last

> paragraph to the list?

>

> Thank you,

>

> Michael

>

>

>

> *From:* englishlanguage-bounces at nifl.gov [mailto:

> englishlanguage-bounces at nifl.gov] *On Behalf Of *Steve Kaufmann

> *Sent:* Thursday, July 30, 2009 3:01 PM

> *To:* The Adult English Language Learners Discussion List

> *Subject:* [EnglishLanguage 4700] Re: Second vs. foreign language

> instruction

>

>

>

> Janet, Michael and others,

>

> A few comments on sociolinguistics. Our learners at LingQ come from all

> over the world and range from beginners to advanced. All are literate, I

> admit, and one of my interests is to see whether our approach could be

> useful for low literacy learners. I do not know the answer.

>

> I cannot know the culture of each our learners. I cannot take it into

> account. Even in a typical ESL class in Vancouver, there could be 10

> different cultures represented. For the teacher to make assumptions about

> the culture of each learner and how it might affect their learning, would

> strike me as presumptuous, risk and not so useful. I think the teacher would

> end up relying on stereotypes.  It is for the learner to explore the culture

> of the language he or she is studying.

>

> As a North American and native speaker of English I would not feel

> comfortable saying that "we are all free thinkers"  "we are trained to make

> our own judgments about things" " You should learn to be more like us".

>

> Why? Because it is not true of all North Americans. It is a stereotype,

> like the French are all rude.

>

> And also because people of other cultures have their own ways of thinking

> critically, and if they are adults, this is difficult to change. I worked in

> Japan for 9 years. At one point I had 45 Japanese people working for me in

> an office. I tried to impose "my superior way". I installed a coffee

> machine, for example, so that the "office ladies" would not have to run to

> the kitchen every time a male employee felt like having a cup of tea or

> coffee. I got away with it because I was in charge and the company was

> Canadian. I did not change any attitudes. I did not get people to speak up

> in meetings, by and large. To get things done I had to follow their ways,

> going around in circles, getting consensus, before confronting anyone with

> an important decision.

>

> No one taught me how to do this, although I was warned. I had to experience

> it all myself. To me language learning is the same. The language and the

> culture have to be discovered, and they are discovered in a number of

> indirect ways, by engaging with the language and the people of the language,

> and not through deliberate instruction.

>

> As to Dr.Laura, our learners post what they want. This can vary from the

> Bible to Karl Marx as far as I am concerned. It is up to the learners to

> choose. Dr. Laura is fun because it is real.

>

> As for lobbyists, if a learner is interested in politics the subject may

> come up. I might mention that lobbying is, in my view, an integral part of

> our democratic system, and everyone gets in on the act. To judge from what

> I  read earlier on this very listserv, for adult ed teachers to enlist

> students to write letters to politicians asking for more funding, is

> considered by some here to be not only acceptable but a condition of

> employment.

>

> I am happy to explain my views on socio-linguistics, critical thinking etc,

> and also happy to answer criticisms of LingQ.

>

> Steve

>

>

> --

> Steve Kaufmann

> www.thelinguist.blogs.com

> www.lingq.com

> 604-922-8514

>

> ----------------------------------------------------

> National Institute for Literacy

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>




-- 
Steve Kaufmann
www.thelinguist.blogs.com
www.lingq.com
604-922-8514
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