Dear Amy, 
I found that one of the things that worked best was project-based learing using technology. Parents could teach children what skills they had learnede; children could find out that there is more to computers than vieo games, and that parents aren't total idiots on the computer, and the language instruction is integrated into the project and technology instruction.
Bonnie Odiorne (former) WIA-funded family literacy program for ESL/ABE students, both adult instruction and parents/children time together.

--- On Fri, 1/16/09, Amy Baker <abaker at hispanicinterest.org> wrote:

From: Amy Baker <abaker at hispanicinterest.org>
Subject: [EnglishLanguage 3468] Re: managing programs for ESL
To: "The Adult English Language Learners Discussion List" <englishlanguage at nifl.gov>
Date: Friday, January 16, 2009, 4:43 PM



Hi All,
I am excited to be a part of this discussion list! 
 
I am interested in advice from anyone who has managed a small [in its early days at least]  ESL program for a nonprofit agency.  I am also interested in collaborating with K12 schools through this agency to provide high-quality ESL instruction to families. 
 
Our nonprofit is well-established and has been recognized statewide and nationally for many of the services it provides, however the ESL program is small, currently two classes per semester.  I am the Language Programs Coordinator and I teach one of the classes.  I have a MA in EESL, a TESOL certificate, and 9 years experience teaching ESL.  I have experience building ESL programs in the public schools, but not at a nonprofit and not for adults.
 
Any advice, insight, or suggestions from someone with similar experience would be greatly appreciated.  Our biggest concern is making sure the instruction remains high quality while funds are extremely limited.  
 
Fortunately we have many connections with local ESL teachers, family literacy programs, and the local University, which has an EXCELLENT EESL MA program.  This will be a tremendous help!
 
Thank you!
Best to you all in your endeavors!
 
Amy Baker
 


On Fri, Jan 16, 2009 at 11:34 AM, Anurag Sagar <sagar at centerforliteracy.org> wrote:

I agree with Karin about how the many different aspects of being an ESL
instructor can be helpful in being an ESL program manger. The classroom
background helps one in being able to anticipate the needs of ESL
learners, what may work well and what probably wouldn't (obviously every
teacher will have a different teaching style), but some teaching
ideas/techniques such as helping students who are "preliterate" can be
quite invaluable to a teacher who is struggling in the classroom. What
materials may really work well as well as other suggestions about lesson
planning are some of the ways I have been able to share my expertise
with the other ESL teachers in my program.

Anurag Sagar
ESL Program Manager
Center for Literacy
Philadelphia, PA 19143
215-726-8240

-----Original Message-----
From: englishlanguage-bounces at nifl.gov
[mailto:englishlanguage-bounces at nifl.gov] On Behalf Of
englishlanguage-request at nifl.gov
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 12:00 PM
To: englishlanguage at nifl.gov
Subject: EnglishLanguage Digest, Vol 40, Issue 26

When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of EnglishLanguage digest..."




Today's Topics:

  1. [EnglishLanguage 3454] Re: Questions to discuss re        managing
     programs for adult English language lear (Karin Abell)
  2. [EnglishLanguage 3455] Re: Cooperation between Adult ESL and
     K-12ESL - from Robin Lovrien Schwarz (Maricel Santos)
  3. [EnglishLanguage 3456] Re: managing programs for
     adultEnglishlearners (Janet Isserlis)
  4. [EnglishLanguage 3457] Re: Cooperation between Adult ESL and
     K-12ESL - from Robin Lovrien Schwarz (Susan Finn Miller)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 10:17:37 -0500
From: "Karin Abell" <abellk at durhamtech.edu>
Subject: [EnglishLanguage 3454] Re: Questions to discuss re     managing
       programs for adult English language lear
To: "The Adult English Language Learners Discussion List"
       <englishlanguage at nifl.gov>
Message-ID: <49705EC1.1942.0030.0 at durhamtech.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

Hi everyone!

I wanted to add some additional thoughts to something that I posted
yesterday in relation to the following question:

*        Can a person who has no background in adult ESL instruction be
an effective manager of programs for adult English language learners?
Why or why not?

One of the ways  that I think my background in adult ESL instruction
helps me be a more effective manager is that I am able to anticipate
some of the needs of instructors. I know a lot about the types of
information instructors need as well as the importance of getting that
information in a timely manner. One example from earlier this week--I'd
made a handout to give to students (advertising a set of classes) and
suddenly I remembered how I used to feel when a student had information
that I didn't have as an instructor! I quickly made sure that the
instructors had the same information that the students had (so that they
didn't have to go, "hey, can I borrow that paper for a minute so I can
copy down the info on it?")

Teaching experience is also helpful in terms of how to best communicate
with international students. At my community college, a lot of the
information about classes is written in long sentences that require
reading skills that a lot of my student population does not have. When
we write up information specifically for ESL students, we keep it
simple. We use short sentences, we put important words in bold, we add
pictures or photos if we can...and it makes a difference. It's similar
in terms of speaking with students.

I definitely think that a person who has worked a lot with international
students (but hasn't taught adult ESL) probably could handle the
communication aspect of the job, though.

One other point I wanted to make is that some ESL managers supervise
both instructors and office staff. I've noticed that there's a lot of
emphasis on having managers understand the job of the instructor but at
some institutions, it's also quite important for the manager to
understand the job responsibilities of the office staff. I never want to
be one of those managers who doesn't know how to use the computer system
(and life gets too busy for me to have that luxury anyway!). I believe
strongly in "keeping the talent happy" and this applies to everyone who
works in the program--not just the teachers.

Karin M. Abell
ESL Program Director
Durham Technical Community College
1637 Lawson Street, Durham, NC 27703
Phone (919) 536-7221 ext. 3226



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------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 07:24:03 -0800 (PST)
From: Maricel Santos <maricelgsantos at yahoo.com>
Subject: [EnglishLanguage 3455] Re: Cooperation between Adult ESL and
       K-12ESL - from Robin Lovrien Schwarz
To: The Adult English Language Learners Discussion List
       <englishlanguage at nifl.gov>
Message-ID: <391883.15230.qm at web30804.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"


Thanks to Robin for her thoughtful posting.  I wanted to add 2 comments
in response to her question "Wouldn't it be wonderful to have a regular
source
of summaries of allkinds of research for our field?":

(1) the need for access to research among ABE/ESL practitioners was one
of the key inspirations behind the design of the NCSALL study circles.
These are professional development opportunities to promote the
discussion of current research in our field.  It'd be great to see
school districts supporting the engagement/cooperation and dialogue
around research of adult ESL and K-12 ESL through joint study circles.
Local teacher ed programs would have an important role to play in these
efforts, I imagine.

(2) I think Jennifer Cromley'sLearning to think, learning to  learn:
What the science of thinking and learning has to offer adult education,
published
in 2000, remains a wonderful example of how research (in this case
cognitive
science) which is normally inaccessible was made accessible to
practitioners.
This monograph also does a wonderful job of helping teachers understand
hallmarks of adult learning that address some of the issues Robin
mentioned (plasticiticity, processing, contextualized learning with
PBL).

Best, Maricel

Maricel Santos
San Francisco State University (English/TESOL)






________________________________
From: Miriam Burt <mburt at cal.org>
To: The Adult English Language Learners Discussion List
<englishlanguage at nifl.gov>
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 6:58:54 AM
Subject: [EnglishLanguage 3453] Re: Cooperation between Adult ESL and
K-12ESL - from Robin Lovrien Schwarz


Hello, all.

For some reason  there were difficulties on my end getting
Robin Lovrien Schwarz's message (below) posted, so I'm posting it for
her. It
shouldn't happen again to her or anyone else's posts, though; I think
it's just a weird blip, some glitch in cyperspace.

Miriam
******
Miriam Burt
Moderator, Adult English Language Learner Discussion
List
mburt at cal.org

From: robinschwarz1 at aol.com
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 1:13 AM
To: englishlanguage at nifl.gov
Subject: Re: [EnglishLanguage 3414] Re:
Cooperation between Adult ESL and K-12ESL

Hi-- I am replying to Susan's
message but include several other replies in what I'd like to say about
teaching
adult or K-12 ESL.  Susan says 'there are many similarities--e.g  the
basics of language acquisition."..'   actually, in my research on
adult language acquisition I have found that there are GREAT differences
between
adult and child acquisition--child acquisition--particularly for young
children
( under age 12--some say 10) language acquisition is generally
effortless and
mostly unconscious while for adults it is characterized in the
literature as
effortful and conscious.   This rather significant difference requires
that teaching methods for adult language learners be quite different
than for
children.   One of the many causes of struggles in learning that I
have described in my work is that too often teachers use methodology
developed
on children to teach adult learners-- mostly talking at them and
believing that
will result in learning.   The differences in the child and adult
brain in processing language sound are enormous and are a significant
part of
what makes language learning effortful.   Paticia Kuhl, of the
University of  Washington , says that from
babyhood on, the brain's ability to proces speech sounds that are
unfamiliar and
translate those into speech gestures declines measurably month by month.

Add to that the fact that many adult ESOL learners are older (over
40--meaning
their brains are less plastic--still plastic but mu ch less so), have
been
monollingual and have little formal education, and the challenges of
language
acquisition become larger and larger, a reality that teachers of young
children
do not face.

In another post someone lamented the lack of
research on adult language learning.  I would have to roundly disagree
that
there is a lack of research.  What seems to be the problem is that there
is
no systematic way for ESOL teachers to access such research readily.
It required some heavy digging to find it, and much of it is in related
fields--
reading, neuroscience, adult learning, linguistics, psychology, etc
--and done
in other countries and published in sort of "out of the way" journals,
therefore
requiring access through academic data bases and lots of time
searching.

Wouldn't it be wonderful to have a regular source
of summaries of allkinds of research for our field?

As has
been noted in several postings, teachers of K-12 ESOL often find it
difficult to
adjust their teaching to adults and I have witnessed-- at length-- just
such a
situation where a teacher who was a 5th grade ESL teacher during the
school
year, taught adult ESOL in the summer.   A few of the behaviors
witnessed were: talking about herself in the third person (Teacher needs
help
with this. Who will help teacher?")  using a yard stick to point at
students to respond (includin g elderly Somalis), hanging name signs
around the
learners' necks with ribbons, using children's books for activity pages,

scolding students as if they were children, and mostly,  NEVER talking
to
adults as adults--which resulted not only in her having NO idea how much
English
these students actually had, but in also in not knowing about religious
customs
and bringing in food the students could not eat.   Even teachers who
have taught adults a long time may have the tendency to have class rules
where
adults must ask permission to leave the room, or line up in rows.

When visiting classes or observing or talking to teachers who have spent

time with  younger learners,  I FREQUENTLY hear language such as " I
LET my students look at pages in the picture dictionary we have not done
in
class?; or I never PERMIT my students to copy words, or " Should I ALLOW
my
student to read ahead of the class?  etc.-- language of permission and
control that seem to me out of place in an adult classroom.

The hard part is that out of respect for their teachers, most ESL
students will not complain about being treated as children, (though they
often
will vote with their feet), so feedback is difficult to obtain unless
actively
sought.

On the other hand, some very successful teachers I
know work in K-12 simultaneously, or came out of it and HAVE made that
transition -- their strengths are a) that they have a wider repertoire
of act
ivities for learning than the typical adult-only teacher may have, and
b) they
are more willing to have fun and to experiment with different ways of
learning
than teachers who have only worked with adults.  In addition, as someone

noted, these teachers may have a better training in fundamentals of
reading and
writing.

I am sure it is helpful to family literacy to have K-12 teachers
who are familiar with what the children are learning and with the
workings of
the school so as to help the adults navigate it better, but as several
have
noted, it still requires that the teacher teach adults in ways that work
for
adults.

For a really successful family literacy endeavor, I refer
readers to the study of Robin Waterman ( I HOPE that is the right name)
that was
presented at the AIR/NIFL/CAPED conference in Sacramento two years ago.
This was a
study of the effect doing true, carefully delivered project learning
with
parents in an ESL class sponsored by a K-12 school to enhance the
English of the
parents so they could interact better with the school and their
children.   The results were astounding, both quantitatively ( average
gains of 24 points on the BEST vs 7 in the control group) and
qualitatively,
with both parents and school personnel noticing that the goal of the
class was
clearly met.

Sorry these posts are SO long!!

Robin Lovrien
Schwarz








</ div>-----Original Message-----
From: Susan
Finn Miller <susanfinn_miller at IU13.org>
To: The Adult English Language
Learners Discussion List <englishlanguage at nifl.gov>
Sent: Thu, 15 Jan
2009 10:00 am
Subject: [EnglishLanguage 3414] Re: Cooperation between Adult
ESL and K-12 ESL
Hello Martin
and all,

In 1990, I started working in the field of adult ESL doing both
teaching and professional development. Along the way, I also started to
work
with ESL teachers in K12. While there are many similarities (e.g., the
basics of
language acquisition and linguistics, teaching methodology), I learned
quickly
that there are some important differences in the two fields, too. The
main
difference, as I see it, is the focus. First, even though it is
essential to
foster language for social interaction, K12 ESL teachers need to focus
on
children?s academic English skills from the beginning. The goal is for
children
to be able to use English to achieve academically in all the content
areas:
science, social studies, math, and language arts, as well as to do well
in other
classes such as art, music, physical education, etc. Thus, K12 ESL
teachers
ideally have in depth knowledge of the curriculum the children are
learning and
provide scaffolding and support to ensure ELLs achieve academically. In
other
words, they use the content of the curriculum to teach English language
skills.

There are other differences as well: working within the demands
of a school system, which is often more highly structured than adult ESL

programs and requires collaboration with non ESL teachers; dealing with
the
accountability (testing), which tends to be more demanding and stringent
than
adult ESL, and (importantly !) working with children?s families, etc.

Some adult ELLs also have academic goals, so there can be a similar
focus. Moreover, both children and adult English language learners have
a goal
to improve their English communication skills and have a need to share
their
culture and learn about their new culture. As we all know, adults very
often
first need and want a focus on adult oriented life skills.

I?ve always
thought that adult ESL teachers could benefit from participating in K12
ESL
professional development activities because of both the similarities and
the
differences in the two fields. What?s more, the K12 teachers I teach in
my
graduate classes have been eager to learn about the issues adult
learners face
and how to work most effectively with families to support children?s
learning.

Susan Finn Miller
Lancaster, PA


On 1/15/09 8:01 AM,
"Martin Senger" <MSenger at GECAC.org>
wrote:
Pax et
bonum! (peace & goodness)

In your area, is there any/much
cooperation between the Adult ESL field
(teachers/administrators/professional
development/research) and K-12?

I work with several adult ESL
teacher networks, but have very, very limited contact with the K-12
crowd. Is
that the norm, or are we ?special?? I have just talked with the PA Dept
of
Ed/K-12 ESL section, and they said we could use their professional
development
(when pertinent). I just think it?s funny that we have people doing
basically
the same thing (ESL), but in completely different circles. Is there a
big enough
difference between adult ed and K-12 to warrant two individual fields?
What say
you?


Martin E.
Senger
Adult ESL / Civics
Teacher,
G.E.C.A.C. / The R. Banjamin Wiley Learning Center
Erie,
Pa.
Co-Director,
ESL Special Interest
Group
Pa. Assoc. for Adult Continuing Education
(PAACE)


From:englishlanguage-bounces at nifl.gov[mailto:englishlanguage-bounces at nif
l.gov]On Behalf Of Brigitte Marshall
Sent: Wednesday,
January 14, 2009 11:34 PM
To: The Adult English Language Learners
Discussion List
Subject: [EnglishLanguage 3410] Re: FW: Re:
managingprogramsforadultEnglish learners

So many of us
who have pursued management of ESL Programs as a next step in our
journey as ESL
professionals are very committed to keeping the direct and real
connection with
the classroom. Several posters to this list discussion have talked about
the
value of remaining engaged at the classroom level because of their love
of
teaching and/or their desire to remain connected to students. I know
that for a
couple of years I struggled to juggle both, being an administrator and a

classroom teacher, and in the end I discovered a way to feed my need to
teach
and stay connected more directly to students at the same time in a way
that I
had not anticipated. My motivation has always emanated from a commitment
to
refugee and immigrant students, but when I was asked to teach in an
adult
credentialing programming, I discovered a whole new way of contributing
something that I thought would ultimately be of benefit to refugees and
immigrants. Working with teachers as they are learning their craft can
be
wonderfully rewarding and provided me with the opportunity to engage
with
teachers in a way that was not evaluative or supervisory ? which raises
another
question I have been wondering about?.

When I was going through the
administrative credentialing program, the professor who was leading the
section
on supervision and evaluation made a couple of very strong
recommendations; the
first=2 0was that administrators and program managers should not try to
be
instructional experts and should not try to critique the teachers they
were
supervising and observing from a place of expertise. The second was that
as the
supervisor and/or evaluator, an administrator or program manager is very
ill
positioned to be a coach, or the person identified to help and support a
teacher
because the supervisory dynamic will get in the way.
What do others think
about these recommendations?
Can ESL Program Managers continue over time to
be experts on instructional practice, or should they acknowledge that
being out
of the classroom either entirely or more than they are in it, reduces
their
ability to speak from a platform of expertise? And if an ESL Program
Manager
does not speak from a platform of instructional and specific ESL
expertise, how
do they effectively manage and supervise?
Do you agree that administrators
and program managers are not the best people to be coaches for teachers
who need
support to develop their craft? If not the Program manager, then
who?


Brigitte
Marshall, Director
Oakland Adult and Career Education
McClymonds Education
Complex
2607 Myrtle
Street , Oakland , CA 94607

Tel: (510) 879
3037
Fax: (510) 452 2077
</ i>
Expect
Success. Every student. Every classroom. Every day.

________________________________

From:englishlanguage-bounces at nifl.gov[mailto:englishlanguage-bounces at nif
l.gov]On Behalf Of Diaz, Beatriz B.
Sent: Tuesday,
January 13, 2009 7:05 PM
To: The Adult English Language Learners
Discussion List
Subject: RE: [EnglishLanguage 3347] Re: FW: Re:
managing programsforadultEnglishlearners


As the
"leader" of a very large Adult ESOL program,  I wear many hats but more
and
more I find it difficult to get away from my "administrator crown",
which is the
one I like the least.  I strongly believe that programs improve and
better
service students if leaders are in the  class, in the centers and in the

community facilating English literacy opportunities and expanding our
learning
communities. Unfortunately, many hours of my day are spent processing
the right
form, approving purchase orders and attending meetings.  Is this typical
of
others in similar positions?  How20have other achieved a balance short
of
putting in 20 hours of work per day?



________________________________

From:englishlanguage-bounces at nifl.govon behalf of Betsy Wong
Sent: Tue 1/13/2009 10:50
AM
To: 'The Adult English Language Learners Discussion
List'
Subject: [EnglishLanguage 3347] Re: FW: Re: managing
programsforadultEnglishlearners

In keeping with the spirit of a chain dialogue, I wanted to
highlight
something that Laurie said:

"What I find more important is
recognizing really good teaching methods and
resources available and
providing opportunities to share those in your
program."

I think that
this is a really important part of a program manager's role,
and it gets back
to the points that have been made about striving to be a
visionary and
achieving balance.

It also points to a solution to a dilemma that many of
us face: In the face
of shrunken resources, what can we offer teachers when
salary increases or
full-time positions are simply not on the table?

I
think that pro fessional development opportunities can be something to
help
"sell" a program to a prospective teacher and help motivate (and
retain)
current teachers. This can be through formal in-service meetings
responding
to teachers' stated needs or informal discussions or focus groups
that allow
teachers to share ideas and give input on program decisions.


What do the rest of you think? Suggestions?

Betsy Lindeman
Wong
Lead ESL Teacher
Alexandria Adult and Community
Education

-----Original Message-----
From: englishlanguage-bounces at nifl.gov
[mailto:englishlanguage-bounces at nifl.gov]On Behalf Of Mangum, Laurie
(ACE)
Sent: Tuesday, January 13,
2009 9:18 AM
To: englishlanguage at nifl.gov
Subject: [EnglishLanguage 3342] FW: Re: managing
programs
foradultEnglishlearners

I wanted to respond to Brigitte's
thought

"I think it would be very interesting to explore this last point
a
little
bit more. We have already asked if we think that ESOL Program
Managers
should ideally have ESOL classroom experience - but what do we
think
about the need for an effective ESOL Program Manager to have been
a
good, or really good teacher? Is this a necessary pre-requisite? And
is
an effective ESOL Program manager's effectiveness derived from
their
ongoing expertise as a classroom instructor? Is it20really possible
for
an ESOL Program Manager to remain current and a model of
good
instructional practice? If they don't, could they still be able
to
manage and supervise other ESL instructors effectively?"


My
name is Laurie Mangum, I manage the Family Literacy program under
Adult ESOL
for Fairfax County Public Schools.  I had taught a
non-intensive ESOL
class (first as a volunteer and then paid) before
taking on the
responsibility to coordinate this program but I always
think of my
professional background as a project manager.  I am often
frustrated by
the idea in Education that good teachers make good
administrators.  I
don't necessarily think being a really good teacher
is a pre-requisite to
running a really good program.  What I find more
important is
recognizing really good teaching methods and resources
available and
providing opportunities to share those in your program.  I
see part of
my job to be a consulting role and look for best practices
to share with my
staff.  Managing the many facets of a program and being
adept at
changing strategies when something isn't working are also
instrumental to
being successful in the role.  Or as some people have
described my job:
having the ability to juggle while herding cats.



Laurie
Mangum
Family Literacy Specialist/Adult ESOL
Fairfax County Public
Schools
Adult & Community Education
P lum Center for Lifelong
Learning
6815 Edsall Rd.
Springfield, VA 22151

Phone:
 703-658-2760



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Message: 3
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 11:40:13 -0500
From: Janet Isserlis <Janet_Isserlis at brown.edu>
Subject: [EnglishLanguage 3456] Re: managing programs for
       adultEnglishlearners
To: The Adult English Language Learners Discussion List
       <englishlanguage at nifl.gov>
Message-ID: <C596229D.282F2%Janet_Isserlis at brown.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain;       charset="US-ASCII"

to add to MaryAnn's excellent insights, key question that arise for me
focus
around a person's ability to listen, to know what it is she or he knows
and
doesn't know and how to ask questions to get the information s/he needs
to
have in order to make well-informed decisions.

There are plenty of people with knowledge of the field who are not good
managers, plenty of good managers who don't know the field.  We all know
that.  In my view - as MaryAnn wisely suggests - it's not a Yes or No
question.

If a manager knows nothing about adult learning but knows that s/he
needs to
learn key pieces about it in order to support the agency, then fine.
If,
however, a manager refuses to listen or learn - no matter how gifted he
or
she might be - the agency might survive financially, but what will
happen to
its soul?

Again - there are rules, exceptions, individuals -- it really does
depend on
what's going on in a particular agency.  My own experience has been that
Professional Managers without content knowledge can do great good or
great
harm.  It's a complicated set of questions, which people here seem to be
acknowledging.

Janet Isserlis



> From: MaryAnn Florez <mflorez at dclearns.org>

> Reply-To: The Adult English Language Learners Discussion List

> <englishlanguage at nifl.gov>

> Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 09:53:24 -0500

> To: 'The Adult English Language Learners Discussion List'

> <englishlanguage at nifl.gov>

> Subject: [EnglishLanguage 3344] Re: managing programs for

adultEnglishlearners

>

> One of the program directors in this area that I know and highly,

highly

> respect, has no background as a teacher, and I think her only adult

> education experience has come from her work with her current

organization.

> What she does have are skills and knowledge in fundraising, board

> development, systems management, strategic and program planning, and

> outreach and community development.  She is also smart enough and

secure

> enough to surround herself with next tier managers and coordinators

who do

> have specializations and excellent skills in instructional planning

and

> execution, curriculum development, and volunteer management.

>

> Meeting and working with her has made me think twice about what that

> connection between managing and teaching could/should/doesn't

necessarily

> need to be.  I don't think it's a black and white answer.  And if you

asked

> me to decide between two coordinator candidates, one with teaching and

> experience and one without, all other things being equal, I would

still

> choose the one with teaching experience.  But I think like many

things, it

> depends on how all those skills and experiences come together in a

> particular person, AND I think it depends on the program in question,

and

> what its needs and peculiarities are.




------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 11:47:07 -0500
From: Susan Finn Miller <susanfinn_miller at IU13.org>
Subject: [EnglishLanguage 3457] Re: Cooperation between Adult ESL and
       K-12ESL - from Robin Lovrien Schwarz
To: The Adult English Language Learners Discussion List
       <englishlanguage at nifl.gov>
Message-ID: <C596243B.4919%susanfinn_miller at iu13.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

I greatly appreciate Robin's thoughtful and in depth response. I agree
completely that there are differences between certain aspects of second
language acquisition for children and adults. Importantly, our approach
to instruction must be quite different, too. Several posters have
acknowledged that there are teachers who easily make the switch between
working with children and adults and some who have much to learn.

On the issue of second language acquisition, it is obvious that many
more children become proficient in a second language than adults.
Nevertheless, it is relevant to point out that learning a second
language for children, while different, is not categorically easy.  Many
years ago (1992), Barry McLaughlin published an article targeting K12
teachers entitled "Myths and misconceptions about second language
learning: What every teacher needs to unlearn," which is available
online at http://www.ncela.gwu.edu/pubs/ncrcdsll/epr5.htm

Anyone interested in this topic, might also want to check out an
interview with Harvard professor Catherine Snow on this topic, "Looking
closely at second language acquisition," available at
http://www.gse.harvard.edu/news/features/snow10012002.html.

Also related, Catherine Snow co-authored an article with Marinova-Todd,
and Bradford Marshall in the 2002 TESOL Quarterly (Volume 34, Issue 1),
"Three Misconceptions about Age and L2 Learning."  While I think these
authors' analysis is interesting and compelling, it does not necessarily
settle all the questions related to age and language learning.

Let's hope researchers have expanded resources to continue exploring
these complex issues and that teachers have increased opportunities to
learn how to apply the relevant research to their instruction.

Susan Finn Miller
Lancaster, PA


On 1/16/09 9:58 AM, "Miriam Burt" <mburt at cal.org> wrote:

Hello, all.

For some reason  there were difficulties on my end getting Robin Lovrien
Schwarz's message (below) posted, so I'm posting it for her. It
shouldn't happen again to her or anyone else's posts, though; I think
it's just a weird blip, some glitch in cyperspace.

Miriam
******
Miriam Burt
Moderator, Adult English Language Learner Discussion List
mburt at cal.org

From: robinschwarz1 at aol.com
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 1:13 AM
To: englishlanguage at nifl.gov
Subject: Re: [EnglishLanguage 3414] Re: Cooperation between Adult ESL
and K-12ESL

Hi-- I am replying to Susan's message but include several other replies
in what I'd like to say about teaching adult or K-12 ESL.  Susan says
'there are many similarities--e.g  the basics of language
acquisition."..'   actually, in my research on adult language
acquisition I have found that there are GREAT differences between adult
and child acquisition--child acquisition--particularly for young
children ( under age 12--some say 10) language acquisition is generally
effortless and mostly unconscious while for adults it is characterized
in the literature as effortful and conscious.   This rather significant
difference requires that teaching methods for adult language learners be
quite different than for children.   One of the many causes of struggles
in learning that I have described in my work is that too often teachers
use methodology developed on children to teach adult learners-- mostly
talking at them and believing that will result in learning.   The
differences in the ch

 ild and adult brain in processing language sound are enormous and are a
significant part of what makes language learning effortful.   Paticia
Kuhl, of the University of Washington, says that from babyhood on, the
brain's ability to proces speech sounds that are unfamiliar and
translate those into speech gestures declines measurably month by month.
Add to that the fact that many adult ESOL learners are older (over
40--meaning their brains are less plastic--still plastic but mu ch less
so), have been monollingual and have little formal education, and the
challenges of language acquisition become larger and larger, a reality
that teachers of young children do not face.

In another post someone lamented the lack of research on adult language
learning.  I would have to roundly disagree that there is a lack of
research.  What seems to be the problem is that there is no systematic
way for ESOL teachers to access such research readily.   It required
some heavy digging to find it, and much of it is in related fields--
reading, neuroscience, adult learning, linguistics, psychology, etc
--and done in other countries and published in sort of "out of the way"
journals, therefore requiring access through academic data bases and
lots of time searching.

Wouldn't it be wonderful to have a regular source of summaries of
allkinds of research for our field?

As has been noted in several postings, teachers of K-12 ESOL often find
it difficult to adjust their teaching to adults and I have witnessed--
at length-- just such a situation where a teacher who was a 5th grade
ESL teacher during the school year, taught adult ESOL in the summer.   A
few of the behaviors witnessed were: talking about herself in the third
person (Teacher needs help with this. Who will help teacher?")  using a
yard stick to point at students to respond (includin g elderly Somalis),
hanging name signs around the learners' necks with ribbons, using
children's books for activity pages,  scolding students as if they were
children, and mostly,  NEVER talking to adults as adults--which resulted
not only in her having NO idea how much English these students actually
had, but in also in not knowing about religious customs and bringing in
food the students could not eat.   Even teachers who have taught adults
a long time may have the tendency to have class rules where

 adults must ask permission to leave the room, or line up in rows.

When visiting classes or observing or talking to teachers who have spent
time with  younger learners,  I FREQUENTLY hear language such as " I LET
my students look at pages in the picture dictionary we have not done in
class?; or I never PERMIT my students to copy words, or " Should I ALLOW
my student to read ahead of the class?  etc.-- language of permission
and control that seem to me out of place in an adult classroom.

The hard part is that out of respect for their teachers, most ESL
students will not complain about being treated as children, (though they
often will vote with their feet), so feedback is difficult to obtain
unless actively sought.

On the other hand, some very successful teachers I know work in K-12
simultaneously, or came out of it and HAVE made that transition -- their
strengths are a) that they have a wider repertoire of act ivities for
learning than the typical adult-only teacher may have, and b) they are
more willing to have fun and to experiment with different ways of
learning than teachers who have only worked with adults.  In addition,
as someone noted, these teachers may have a better training in
fundamentals of reading and writing.

I am sure it is helpful to family literacy to have K-12 teachers who are
familiar with what the children are learning and with the workings of
the school so as to help the adults navigate it better, but as several
have noted, it still requires that the teacher teach adults in ways that
work for adults.

For a really successful family literacy endeavor, I refer readers to the
study of Robin Waterman ( I HOPE that is the right name) that was
presented at the AIR/NIFL/CAPED conference in Sacramento two years ago.
This was a study of the effect doing true, carefully delivered project
learning with parents in an ESL class sponsored by a K-12 school to
enhance the English of the parents so they could interact better with
the school and their children.   The results were astounding, both
quantitatively ( average gains of 24 points on the BEST vs 7 in the
control group) and qualitatively, with both parents and school personnel
noticing that the goal of the class was clearly met.

Sorry these posts are SO long!!

Robin Lovrien Schwarz








-----Original Message-----
From: Susan Finn Miller <susanfinn_miller at IU13.org>
To: The Adult English Language Learners Discussion List
<englishlanguage at nifl.gov>
Sent: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 10:00 am
Subject: [EnglishLanguage 3414] Re: Cooperation between Adult ESL and
K-12 ESL
Hello Martin and all,

In 1990, I started working in the field of adult ESL doing both teaching
and professional development. Along the way, I also started to work with
ESL teachers in K12. While there are many similarities (e.g., the basics
of language acquisition and linguistics, teaching methodology), I
learned quickly that there are some important differences in the two
fields, too. The main difference, as I see it, is the focus. First, even
though it is essential to foster language for social interaction, K12
ESL teachers need to focus on children's academic English skills from
the beginning. The goal is for children to be able to use English to
achieve academically in all the content areas: science, social studies,
math, and language arts, as well as to do well in other classes such as
art, music, physical education, etc. Thus, K12 ESL teachers ideally have
in depth knowledge of the curriculum the children are learning and
provide scaffolding and support to ensure ELLs achieve academically. I

 n other words, they use the content of the curriculum to teach English
language skills.

There are other differences as well: working within the demands of a
school system, which is often more highly structured than adult ESL
programs and requires collaboration with non ESL teachers; dealing with
the accountability (testing), which tends to be more demanding and
stringent than adult ESL, and (importantly !) working with children's
families, etc.

Some adult ELLs also have academic goals, so there can be a similar
focus. Moreover, both children and adult English language learners have
a goal to improve their English communication skills and have a need to
share their culture and learn about their new culture. As we all know,
adults very often first need and want a focus on adult oriented life
skills.

I've always thought that adult ESL teachers could benefit from
participating in K12 ESL professional development activities because of
both the similarities and the differences in the two fields. What's
more, the K12 teachers I teach in my graduate classes have been eager to
learn about the issues adult learners face and how to work most
effectively with families to support children's learning.

Susan Finn Miller
Lancaster, PA


On 1/15/09 8:01 AM, "Martin Senger" <MSenger at GECAC.org> wrote:
Pax et bonum! (peace & goodness)

In your area, is there any/much cooperation between the Adult ESL field
(teachers/administrators/professional development/research) and K-12?

I work with several adult ESL teacher networks, but have very, very
limited contact with the K-12 crowd. Is that the norm, or are we
"special?" I have just talked with the PA Dept of Ed/K-12 ESL section,
and they said we could use their professional development (when
pertinent). I just think it's funny that we have people doing basically
the same thing (ESL), but in completely different circles. Is there a
big enough difference between adult ed and K-12 to warrant two
individual fields? What say you?


Martin E. Senger
Adult ESL / Civics Teacher,
G.E.C.A.C. / The R. Banjamin Wiley Learning Center
Erie, Pa.
Co-Director,
ESL Special Interest Group
Pa. Assoc. for Adult Continuing Education (PAACE)


From: englishlanguage-bounces at nifl.gov
[mailto:englishlanguage-bounces at nifl.gov]
<mailto:englishlanguage-bounces at nifl.gov%5D><mailto:englishlanguage-boun
ces at nifl.gov%5D> On Behalf Of Brigitte Marshall
Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 11:34 PM
To: The Adult English Language Learners Discussion List
Subject: [EnglishLanguage 3410] Re: FW: Re:
managingprogramsforadultEnglish learners

So many of us who have pursued management of ESL Programs as a next step
in our journey as ESL professionals are very committed to keeping the
direct and real connection with the classroom. Several posters to this
list discussion have talked about the value of remaining engaged at the
classroom level because of their love of teaching and/or their desire to
remain connected to students. I know that for a couple of years I
struggled to juggle both, being an administrator and a classroom
teacher, and in the end I discovered a way to feed my need to teach and
stay connected more directly to students at the same time in a way that
I had not anticipated. My motivation has always emanated from a
commitment to refugee and immigrant students, but when I was asked to
teach in an adult credentialing programming, I discovered a whole new
way of contributing something that I thought would ultimately be of
benefit to refugees and immigrants. Working with teachers as they are
learning their

 craft can be wonderfully rewarding and provided me with the
opportunity to engage with teachers in a way that was not evaluative or
supervisory - which raises another question I have been wondering
about....

When I was going through the administrative credentialing program, the
professor who was leading the section on supervision and evaluation made
a couple of very strong recommendations; the first=2 0was that
administrators and program managers should not try to be instructional
experts and should not try to critique the teachers they were
supervising and observing from a place of expertise. The second was that
as the supervisor and/or evaluator, an administrator or program manager
is very ill positioned to be a coach, or the person identified to help
and support a teacher because the supervisory dynamic will get in the
way.
What do others think about these recommendations?
Can ESL Program Managers continue over time to be experts on
instructional practice, or should they acknowledge that being out of the
classroom either entirely or more than they are in it, reduces their
ability to speak from a platform of expertise? And if an ESL Program
Manager does not speak from a platform of instructional and specific ESL
expertise, how do they effectively manage and supervise?
Do you agree that administrators and program managers are not the best
people to be coaches for teachers who need support to develop their
craft? If not the Program manager, then who?


Brigitte Marshall, Director
Oakland Adult and Career Education
McClymonds Education Complex
2607 Myrtle Street, Oakland, CA 94607

Tel: (510) 879 3037
Fax: (510) 452 2077

Expect Success. Every student. Every classroom. Every day.

________________________________

From: englishlanguage-bounces at nifl.gov
[mailto:englishlanguage-bounces at nifl.gov]
<mailto:englishlanguage-bounces at nifl.gov%5D><mailto:englishlanguage-boun
ces at nifl.gov%5D> On Behalf Of Diaz, Beatriz B.
Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2009 7:05 PM
To: The Adult English Language Learners Discussion List
Subject: RE: [EnglishLanguage 3347] Re: FW: Re: managing
programsforadultEnglishlearners


As the "leader" of a very large Adult ESOL program,  I wear many hats
but more and more I find it difficult to get away from my "administrator
crown", which is the one I like the least.  I strongly believe that
programs improve and better service students if leaders are in the
class, in the centers and in the community facilating English literacy
opportunities and expanding our learning communities. Unfortunately,
many hours of my day are spent processing the right form, approving
purchase orders and attending meetings.  Is this typical of others in
similar positions?  How20have other achieved a balance short of putting
in 20 hours of work per day?



________________________________

From: englishlanguage-bounces at nifl.gov on behalf of Betsy Wong
Sent: Tue 1/13/2009 10:50 AM
To: 'The Adult English Language Learners Discussion List'
Subject: [EnglishLanguage 3347] Re: FW: Re: managing
programsforadultEnglishlearners

In keeping with the spirit of a chain dialogue, I wanted to highlight
something that Laurie said:

"What I find more important is recognizing really good teaching methods
and
resources available and providing opportunities to share those in your
program."

I think that this is a really important part of a program manager's
role,
and it gets back to the points that have been made about striving to be
a
visionary and achieving balance.

It also points to a solution to a dilemma that many of us face: In the
face
of shrunken resources, what can we offer teachers when salary increases
or
full-time positions are simply not on the table?

I think that pro fessional development opportunities can be something to
help
"sell" a program to a prospective teacher and help motivate (and retain)
current teachers. This can be through formal in-service meetings
responding
to teachers' stated needs or informal discussions or focus groups that
allow
teachers to share ideas and give input on program decisions.

What do the rest of you think? Suggestions?

Betsy Lindeman Wong
Lead ESL Teacher
Alexandria Adult and Community Education

-----Original Message-----
From: englishlanguage-bounces at nifl.gov
[mailto:englishlanguage-bounces at nifl.gov]
<mailto:englishlanguage-bounces at nifl.gov%5D><mailto:englishlanguage-boun
ces at nifl.gov%5D> On Behalf Of Mangum, Laurie (ACE)
Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2009 9:18 AM
To: englishlanguage at nifl.gov
Subject: [EnglishLanguage 3342] FW: Re: managing programs
foradultEnglishlearners

I wanted to respond to Brigitte's thought

"I think it would be very interesting to explore this last point a
little
bit more. We have already asked if we think that ESOL Program Managers
should ideally have ESOL classroom experience - but what do we think
about the need for an effective ESOL Program Manager to have been a
good, or really good teacher? Is this a necessary pre-requisite? And is
an effective ESOL Program manager's effectiveness derived from their
ongoing expertise as a classroom instructor? Is it20really possible for
an ESOL Program Manager to remain current and a model of good
instructional practice? If they don't, could they still be able to
manage and supervise other ESL instructors effectively?"


My name is Laurie Mangum, I manage the Family Literacy program under
Adult ESOL for Fairfax County Public Schools.  I had taught a
non-intensive ESOL class (first as a volunteer and then paid) before
taking on the responsibility to coordinate this program but I always
think of my professional background as a project manager.  I am often
frustrated by the idea in Education that good teachers make good
administrators.  I don't necessarily think being a really good teacher
is a pre-requisite to running a really good program.  What I find more
important is recognizing really good teaching methods and resources
available and providing opportunities to share those in your program.  I
see part of my job to be a consulting role and look for best practices
to share with my staff.  Managing the many facets of a program and being
adept at changing strategies when something isn't working are also
instrumental to being successful in the role.  Or as some people have
described my job: having the ability to juggle while herding cats.



Laurie Mangum
Family Literacy Specialist/Adult ESOL
Fairfax County Public Schools
Adult & Community Education
P lum Center for Lifelong Learning
6815 Edsall Rd.
Springfield, VA 22151

Phone:  703-658-2760


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-- 
Amy Baker
HICA
ESL Teacher and Language Program Coordinator


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