In my simple understanding, I thought that grammar was the relationship of
words in an  sentence to express  ideas or thoughts.  I thought grammar
referred to features  like word order and how some words modified other
words and some words expressed the thought and action of the sentence.   I
remember reading that all language is grammatical but different language
users do not always fallow the same set of rules.  It seems that this was
said in regards to non standard American English speakers.    It seems the
point of the writer was trying to make is that is wrong to tell a student
that their language is not grammatical.  

 

On the other hand I had the impression that usage as term referred to some
of the more glaring or obvious difference between standard speakers of a
language, English in this case, and non standard speakers.  The question was
one of giving access to non standard speakers to standard language and the
language of education when they so chose to use it.  Because I teach in an
urban environment, I see many similarities between ESL students and American
students who do not speak standard American English at home.  In fact, many
of the ESL students I have seen in our k-12 system have a greater facility
with language overall than some American youngsters who seem to have had
limited oral interaction within their families. 

 

I have always found that students seems to go along my rather simple view of
grammar as a set of rules similar to the rules we have in sports and that as
in sports we sometimes change rules but that it happens over time.  If the
focus was on communication and the discussion of proper was reduced to how
language is used in different situations, then students seemed to be less
concerned with being correct and began using  language more freely.  I saw
this happen at all levels.  Of course, the level of talk about language was
very little at the beginning and literacy levels.  However, even literacy
students heard and used terms and wanted to know what different terms meant
for example.  'sup baby on the extreme to howdy, hi, " howyadoing".  We all
laughed because no one ever speaks textbook English.  But all students knew
there was language used with family, friends, at work and with people in
positions of authority.  Of course on this list we would use the term
register but it seemed easier to keep all that within the context of Grammar
and my attempts to lessen anxiety about being correct.  

 

Dan Wann     

 

From: englishlanguage-bounces at nifl.gov
[mailto:englishlanguage-bounces at nifl.gov] On Behalf Of Steve Kaufmann
Sent: Sunday, February 01, 2009 6:41 PM
To: The Adult English Language Learners Discussion List
Subject: [EnglishLanguage 3814] Re: Post criticalperiodoralL2learning
ofadults w/low L1 litearcy

 

I think the word grammar is a bit of a loaded word that seems to suggest
formal explanations, rules, tables and drills. Usage is an easier term in
some ways. Grammar rules seem to need to be explained, even if that does not
help the learner much in most cases. Usage just is and you have to get used
to it. Pointing out usage, or better still systems that encourage the
learner to notice usage, are in my experience the most effective. You can
explain the third person singular takes "s", you can even point it out, but
it is surprisingly develop for some people to remember. Some things just
take time.

But the usage belongs to the learner. He or she can choose to get by with
poor usage, while developing listening skills and a larger vocabulary. He or
she can choose to emulate the usage of whatever group, including "incorrect"
or non-standard usage by certain native speakers. Once the learner is
motivated to imitate more standard usage, there are ways to help him or her
notice or become aware. When that happens, when the hunger to emulate a
certain style of usage coincides with the willingness to put in the time,
things really start to happen. But usually it happens on the learner's
timetable not that of the teacher.

Steve Kaufmann
www.lingq.com

On 2/1/09, Nicole Graves <cnaamh at rcn.com> wrote:

Joan,

 

It is true that we do not focus on grammar that much in our lower level
classes.  But grammar is always present as we use it to communicate.
Grammar is about form, meaning and usage.  Focused grammar teaching
increases as students advance from one level to the next.  My approach to
develop "noticing" or "awareness" can used to focus on structure.   It's not
a cure all.  It is not quick.  However, it works for the majority of
learners.  As we all know, there are always exceptions to the rule.  As a
teacher, it is my job to find what works for each of my students.

 

Using /s/ in the 3rd person singular and /d/or /ed/ in the past is grammar.

 

Nicole

----- Original Message ----- 

From: Joan <mailto:owlhouse at wwt.net>  

To: The Adult English Language Learners Discussion
<mailto:englishlanguage at nifl.gov>  List 

Sent: Friday, January 30, 2009 11:10 AM

Subject: [EnglishLanguage 3761] Re: Post criticalperiodoralL2learning
ofadults w/low L1 litearcy

 

Interesting.  Have you had similar success with grammar?  I'd love to hear
about what strategies you've found that work.

 

----- Original Message ----- 

From: Nicole Graves <mailto:cnaamh at rcn.com>  

To: The Adult English Language Learners Discussion
<mailto:englishlanguage at nifl.gov>  List 

Sent: Friday, January 30, 2009 9:43 AM

Subject: [EnglishLanguage 3758] Re: Post critical periodoralL2learning
ofadults w/low L1 litearcy

 

I have had success working this way with learners who had been here for up
to 20 years.

 

Nicole B. Graves

----- Original Message ----- 

From: Joan <mailto:owlhouse at wwt.net>  

To: The Adult English Language Learners Discussion
<mailto:englishlanguage at nifl.gov>  List 

Sent: Friday, January 30, 2009 8:34 AM

Subject: [EnglishLanguage 3757] Re: Post critical period oralL2learning
ofadults w/low L1 litearcy

 

It sounds like you're working with beginners, Nicole, and that's why you're
able to make a difference when you intervene to work on their pronunciation
issues. 

 

That's my point about grammar instruction too.  If you intervene early and
point out the rules before your students have gone ahead and created their
own internal, completely inaccurate grammatical system, you can help them
learn English better. It just seems like a disservice to me, not to do this
for our students. This doesn't mean I advocate a "form-heavy approach"
because I don't.  I believe in using a wide variety of methods and teaching
tools to help my learners.  But I just believe that ignoring grammar
instruction all together, even at the preliterate level, means we are
setting our students up to become "fossilized learners."

 

----- Original Message ----- 

From: Nicole Graves <mailto:cnaamh at rcn.com>  

To: The Adult English Language Learners Discussion
<mailto:englishlanguage at nifl.gov>  List 

Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2009 7:54 PM

Subject: [EnglishLanguage 3754] Re: Post critical period oral L2learning
ofadults w/low L1 litearcy

 

Well, as we all know there is no magic bullet!  

 

As a teacher of beginners, I am very accepting and lenient at first.  I want
the students to take risks.  Does that hinder development?  I think some
students tend to overgeneralize "rules" as children do in their L1 for a
time.  Why do they stay stuck in this stage of interlanguage?  They do not
hear native speakers use these mispronunciations or inappropriate
structures.  As they develop their L 2, they use structures from their
language(s), sounds that are close to English sounds, drop sounds they are
not used to hear in some positions, etc.  Someone in one of these posts
mentioned the need to notice and I add to become aware of differences and
reasons for them if we can explain some of it.

It is slow going but always successful!  I have had success  with many
mispronunciations by focusing, noticing, becoming aware of the problem.
Here are some examples:

I have had students learn to correct mispronunciations such as tirid for
tired, retirid for retired.  Students can generally say the word tire as in
"I had a flat tire".  I use the print too.  How does that word sound?  It
sounds like [tier].  We never write [tier].  We write tire.  I do the same
with the other 2  words.  From that time on, I no longer accept the
incorrect form.  I say excuse me? to signal the mistake to the student.  It
takes about 3 weeks to become internalized.

Sometimes a mini-lesson works.  A higher level student was always saying he
didn't like his apartment because he had no privaty.  I said I understand
what you mean but other people might not.  Listen to this: Sometimes I want
to hang a sign on my door that says Private.  I could use a little privacy
around here.  You can add other sentences  that contrast the two words.

In reading (even at the basic level), students often drop final sounds.
They may not hear them.  They may not have those in final positions in their
L1.  I use highlighters in different colors to make the letter(s)/sound(s)
stand out.  You have to direct teach the different sounds for the letter S
or for ed.  But as they read or even during assisted reading those endings
jump out from the page and signal the student.  It works.

 

Give it a try!

 

Nicole B. Graves

Amherst, MA

----- Original Message ----- 

From: Lynne Weintraub <mailto:lynneweintraub at hotmail.com>  

To: englishlanguage at nifl.gov 

Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 3:02 PM

Subject: [EnglishLanguage 3697] Re: Post critical period oral L2 learning
ofadults w/low L1 litearcy

 

This reminds me of a question I've had on my mind for a while. Has anyone
had any success at improving the accuracy (in terms of structure and/or
pronunciation) of students who seem to be at that "fossilized" stage? (And
if so, how?)

Lynne Weintraub 
Amherst MA




  _____  

From: owlhouse at wwt.net
To: englishlanguage at nifl.gov
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 11:23:21 -0600
Subject: [EnglishLanguage 3681] Re: Post critical period oral L2 learning
ofadults w/low L1 litearcy

I don't know about this, Steve.  It just hasn't been my experience with my
students that the brain eventually sorts it all out and they start speaking
grammatically.  For many years, I taught college prep to immigrant and
refugee high schoolers, many of whom had been in this country and gone
through the public school system for many years, some of them their entire
lives, and still had absolutely no control over English verbs.  They not
only couldn't form them correctly ("I am go,"  "He reading," "He is reads,"
"He is went"); they also used them incorrectly in context - they didn't know
which tense to use or how to form any of the tenses correctly.  Sometimes
they'd throw in an "is" or a "was" or a "did," or all three at once.  They
didn't like to stray from the present tenses much, just trying to make their
meaning clear by choosing a correct time word, but that strategy often
resulted in miscommunication.  While they can get away with many of their
errors in spoken communication, those same errors haunt them on the written
pages that they have to write for their college courses.  

 

They make these errors - consistently - even though they have had "massive
input," as you say, for years - at least eight hours a day in school
listening to teachers and other students.  However, I don't think they ever
got any direct instruction in grammar because many of them were mainstreamed
right away and never attended an ESL class. 

 

I think what happens is that they surmise a rule, incorrectly, and don't pay
attention to the input anymore after that.  We would speak of their English
as being "fossilized" at that point and almost impossible to correct and
change.  

----- Original Message ----- 

From: Steve Kaufmann <mailto:steve at thelinguist.com>  

To: The Adult English Language Learners Discussion
<mailto:englishlanguage at nifl.gov>  List 

Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2009 8:46 PM

Subject: [EnglishLanguage 3659] Re: Post critical period oral L2 learning
ofadults w/low L1 litearcy

 

I  believe that our brain will, with enough exposure to content that is
relevant and interesting, start to sort out some rules relating to word
order, and other aspects of the structure of the new language, with or
without explicit grammar explanations and drills. Some degree of grammar
review, corrections etc, are helpful but not necessary, and not as important
as the massive input. Most learners attending ESL language class do not get
enough input of English.

Some aspects of a new language may never stick. In English, articles are
difficult for people form languages without articles. The spoken difference
between "he" and "she"  is difficult for well educated Chinese people, even
after ten or more years of grammar study, and even though the concept is not
difficult and universally understood. It  just does not exist in Chinese, so
it is hard to develop the natural ability to say "she" and "he" when
required.


>From my reading and observation, the brain sorts these things out on its own

schedule, and slowly. Explanations and drills are relatively ineffective,
but can help a little. Only lots of input will enable the brain to gradually
get better, as long as there is a will, and the input continues. That has
been my experience in learning Russian over the last 2 years, and that has
been the experience of many others who are prepared to put in the time,
listening and reading, according to what they have told me.

Obviously the non-reader is at a disadvantage. However, intensive listening
on an iPod to content of interest could go a long way. However, I admit I
have no experience with non-literate learners.

Steve Kaufmann
www.lingq.com

On Tue, Jan 27, 2009 at 3:58 PM, Elaine Tarone <etarone at umn.edu> wrote:

It is possible that formal teaching imposes accuracy standards that are very
difficult to attain unless the learner is alphabetically literate.  I think
this is particularly true of grammatical features that do not dramatically
change the semantics, like word order in questions and final morphemes that
are really redundant in context.   Maybe teachers can find other ways to
communicate those standards (like use of cuisinaire rods to show word order
shifts) to make the learner aware of the difference between their production
and the accurate target. 

 

 

On Jan 27, 2009, at 5:10 PM, Steve Kaufmann wrote:

 

Is it possible that formal teaching imposes accuracy standards on learners
that are either not relevant to their own language goals, or applied too
soon in their language development? We all know fluent speakers of English
and other languages who make many mistakes.

Steve Kaufmann
www.lingq.com

On Tue, Jan 27, 2009 at 2:15 PM, Martha Bigelow <mbigelow at umn.edu> wrote:

Anne,

This is fascinating.  Would you happen to have a publication or citation you
could share with the list yet?  I'm sure many would be very interested to
read more, even if it is a handout.  I'm often overwhelmed by the English
language fluency and pragmatic skills of the teens I've worked with.  But
sometimes the transcriptions show surprises!  They are not as accurate as
they seem.

Martha

 


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