I apologize that wasn't clear.  "Comprehension is much more important than being able to speak" is what jumped out at me the most.  


Grace and Peace!
Glenda Lynn Rose, PhD

Instructor, 
Austin Learning Academy
841-4777
 

--- On Sat, 1/31/09, Steve Kaufmann <steve at thelinguist.com> wrote:

From: Steve Kaufmann <steve at thelinguist.com>
Subject: [EnglishLanguage 3801] Re: Post criticalperiod oralL2learningofadults w/low L1 litearcy
To: "The Adult English Language Learners Discussion List" <englishlanguage at nifl.gov>
Date: Saturday, January 31, 2009, 6:37 PM


Glenda,

Which specific statement did you disagree with?

Steve Kaufmann
www.lingq.com


On Sat, Jan 31, 2009 at 4:03 PM, Glenda Lynn Rose <glyndalin at yahoo.com> wrote:






Totally disagree.  Yes, it is more comfortable to develop receptive skills first, but no less necessary to speak.  I had a student who registered just yesterday who told me the reason she was registering was because she just had a baby at a hospital with no translator.  She could understand everything the nurses said to her, but was unable to answer them.  It was such a stressful experience that she decided it was time to take an English course.  I also had a student who spent a year in jail because, in my opinion, he was unable to answer the arresting officer correctly when questioned and misunderstood the difference between bond and paying the fine.  I have many examples in which not being able to speak caused my students problems.  Because of this, I include a section of my classes each week to "I wanted to say" and encourage my students to write down things they needed or wanted to say but were unable to as soon after the event as possible
 and bring it to class.
 
It is stressful to speak before you're ready, but my students are encouraged to "do it afraid" because at some point they may have to "do it afraid" outside this classroom.



Grace and Peace!
Glenda Lynn Rose, PhD

Instructor, 
Austin Learning Academy
841-4777
 

--- On Sat, 1/31/09, Steve Kaufmann <steve at thelinguist.com> wrote:

From: Steve Kaufmann <steve at thelinguist.com>
Subject: [EnglishLanguage 3793] Re: Post criticalperiod oralL2learningofadults w/low L1 litearcy

To: "The Adult English Language Learners Discussion List" <englishlanguage at nifl.gov>
Date: Saturday, January 31, 2009, 1:08 PM





I do not think any normal teacher means to embarrass or humiliate a learner. Speaking in a foreign language before you are ready, and if performance is being judged, is simply stressful and unpleasant for many people, including me. Listening and reading and word  and phrase accumulation is more natural and more comfortable.

Comprehension is much more important than being able to speak. In most situations we can stumble through if we need to, but if we know that our main learning task is to get better at understanding, we do not care about our performance.  I have studied Russian for about 1000 hours on my own. It is only now that I am starting to focus on more accurate production. The grammar now makes sense to me and I enjoy keeping track of the patterns, tagging them for review etc. We learn better from examples than from explanations. We only understand things that we are already familiar with.

Steve Kaufmann
www.lingq.com

On Sat, Jan 31, 2009 at 8:43 AM, Joan <owlhouse at wwt.net> wrote:

I am really sorry to hear about the bad experience you had with grammar
instruction.  It's experiences like this that give grammar instruction a bad
name.  No student should ever be shamed or humiliated or intimidated as part
of grammar instruction, or any other kind of instruction.  That is simply
wrong and should never happen, but it doesn't need to be that way.  There
are other ways of approaching grammar instruction that are fun, interactive,
and empowering for learners.  And it is that kind of instruction that I
endorse.



----- Original Message -----
From: "Suhyun Suh" <SUHSUHY at auburn.edu>
To: "The Adult English Language Learners Discussion List"



<englishlanguage at nifl.gov>
Sent: Friday, January 30, 2009 2:42 PM
Subject: [EnglishLanguage 3776] Re: Post criticalperiod
oralL2learningofadults w/low L1 litearcy



> It is extremely interesting to read these exchanges, particularly

> because this topic touches the area of my own concern as an ESL learner.

> Through my own experiences of learning and using English over 20 years

> and listening to the experiences of other ESL learners, I have realized

> that I wish I could have learned English without as much emphasis  as I

> had on grammars. Emphasis on having accuracy either in speaking or

> writing put me in a position to fear of initiating either of these. I

> continue to hear new immigrants and international student talking about

> how scary and embarrassing  it is to make mistakes when they use English

> incorrectly. This fear is escalated specially when they think they are

> evaluated by someone, like teachers, employers, or even strangers. The

> more you have the fear, the less you use it and ultimately it would end

> up with interfering with the  enhancement of your English language

> skills. As such, I am a firm believer that, although grammar should be

> integrated into language teaching, less emphasis of it would produce

> better outcome in the long run. Fear seems to be an enemy to be defeated

> first, and never to be instilled in the first place, in  order to

> effective learning to be taken place in language learning. Wanted to

> share my experiences and struggles as

> a lifelong ESL learner. Suhyun

>

>>>> "Joan" <owlhouse at wwt.net> 1/30/2009 11:40 AM >>>

> I understand, Steve.  I'm not arguing with your experience.  It works

> for you.  It works for a lot of people.  It would not work for me and it

> would not work for some other people.  I need an explanation.  I want to

> know right away why this patterns works here but it doesn't work there.

> If I don't get that information, I get frustrated.  That's my learning

> style.

>

> Again, I'm not form-heavy in my teaching, but I make it available.  If

> you were in my class, you could do something else while I provide

> grammar to those learners who are interested and want it.

>

>  ----- Original Message -----

>  From: Steve Kaufmann

>  To: The Adult English Language Learners Discussion List

>  Sent: Friday, January 30, 2009 10:42 AM

>  Subject: [EnglishLanguage 3763] Re: Post critical period oral

> L2learningofadults w/low L1 litearcy

>

>

>  I have had the exact opposite experience as a learner of Russian.

> Initially I am motivated to understand the language, both spoken and

> written, and just want to acquire words. I am unable to comprehend the

> explanations of how the language works, when I have no sense of the

> language, and certainly cannot produce it properly. Now after 2 years of

> Russian I am starting to focus on grammar and I am able to relate

> explanations and tables to what I have already experienced. I tag flash

> cards with "feminine" and "genitive" etc. and review all the examples

> from phrases that I have accumulated in my listening and reading. It all

> makes sense now. I even record these an listen to them on my iPod.

>

>  Lack of grammar knowledge did not prevent my from understanding. I

> have not spoken much, but last night I attended a  Russian language

> "philosophers cafe" in a local library. I had no trouble expressing

> myself and received the comment that I speak much more freely than most

> Russian learners, although I make mistakes. That is because I do not

> think of grammar.

>

>  I do intend to speak accurately but I believe in two principles.1)

> "We cannot learn what we do not know" -Sufi saying. 2) We learn better

> from examples than from explanations.

>

>   As I review the examples of different aspects of the grammar, I will

> gradually become naturally more alert to these and accuracy will

> improve. I am firmly against early emphasis on grammar. It is just

> frustrating to me. A brief overview at first, perhaps, but nothing

> more.

>

>  Steve Kaufmann

>  www.lingq.com

>

>

>  On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 5:34 AM, Joan <owlhouse at wwt.net> wrote:

>

>    It sounds like you're working with beginners, Nicole, and that's

> why you're able to make a difference when you intervene to work on their

> pronunciation issues.

>

>    That's my point about grammar instruction too.  If you intervene

> early and point out the rules before your students have gone ahead and

> created their own internal, completely inaccurate grammatical system,

> you can help them learn English better. It just seems like a disservice

> to me, not to do this for our students. This doesn't mean I advocate a

> "form-heavy approach" because I don't.  I believe in using a wide

> variety of methods and teaching tools to help my learners.  But I just

> believe that ignoring grammar instruction all together, even at the

> preliterate level, means we are setting our students up to become

> "fossilized learners."

>

>    ----- Original Message -----

>      From: Nicole Graves

>      To: The Adult English Language Learners Discussion List

>      Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2009 7:54 PM

>      Subject: [EnglishLanguage 3754] Re: Post critical period oral

> L2learning ofadults w/low L1 litearcy

>

>

>      Well, as we all know there is no magic bullet!

>

>      As a teacher of beginners, I am very accepting and lenient at

> first.  I want the students to take risks.  Does that hinder

> development?  I think some students tend to overgeneralize "rules" as

> children do in their L1 for a time.  Why do they stay stuck in this

> stage of interlanguage?  They do not hear native speakers use these

> mispronunciations or inappropriate structures.  As they develop their L

> 2, they use structures from their language(s), sounds that are close to

> English sounds, drop sounds they are not used to hear in some positions,

> etc.  Someone in one of these posts mentioned the need to notice and I

> add to become aware of differences and reasons for them if we can

> explain some of it.

>      It is slow going but always successful!  I have had success  with

> many mispronunciations by focusing, noticing, becoming aware of the

> problem.  Here are some examples:

>      I have had students learn to correct mispronunciations such as

> tirid for tired, retirid for retired.  Students can generally say the

> word tire as in "I had a flat tire".  I use the print too.  How does

> that word sound?  It sounds like [tier].  We never write [tier].  We

> write tire.  I do the same with the other 2  words.  From that time on,

> I no longer accept the incorrect form.  I say excuse me? to signal the

> mistake to the student.  It takes about 3 weeks to become internalized.

>      Sometimes a mini-lesson works.  A higher level student was always

> saying he didn't like his apartment because he had no privaty.  I said I

> understand what you mean but other people might not.  Listen to this:

> Sometimes I want to hang a sign on my door that says Private.  I could

> use a little privacy around here.  You can add other sentences  that

> contrast the two words.

>      In reading (even at the basic level), students often drop final

> sounds.  They may not hear them.  They may not have those in final

> positions in their L1.  I use highlighters in different colors to make

> the letter(s)/sound(s) stand out.  You have to direct teach the

> different sounds for the letter S or for ed.  But as they read or even

> during assisted reading those endings jump out from the page and signal

> the student.  It works.

>

>      Give it a try!

>

>      Nicole B. Graves

>      Amherst, MA

>        ----- Original Message -----

>        From: Lynne Weintraub

>        To: englishlanguage at nifl.gov

>        Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 3:02 PM

>        Subject: [EnglishLanguage 3697] Re: Post critical period oral

> L2 learning ofadults w/low L1 litearcy

>

>

>        This reminds me of a question I've had on my mind for a while.

> Has anyone had any success at improving the accuracy (in terms of

> structure and/or pronunciation) of students who seem to be at that

> "fossilized" stage? (And if so, how?)

>

>        Lynne Weintraub

>        Amherst MA

>

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

>        From: owlhouse at wwt.net

>        To: englishlanguage at nifl.gov

>        Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 11:23:21 -0600

>        Subject: [EnglishLanguage 3681] Re: Post critical period oral

> L2 learning ofadults w/low L1 litearcy

>

>

>        I don't know about this, Steve.  It just hasn't been my

> experience with my students that the brain eventually sorts it all out

> and they start speaking grammatically.  For many years, I taught college

> prep to immigrant and refugee high schoolers, many of whom had been in

> this country and gone through the public school system for many years,

> some of them their entire lives, and still had absolutely no control

> over English verbs.  They not only couldn't form them correctly ("I am

> go,"  "He reading," "He is reads," "He is went"); they also used them

> incorrectly in context – they didn't know which tense to use or how to

> form any of the tenses correctly.  Sometimes they'd throw in an "is" or

> a "was" or a "did," or all three at once.  They didn't like to stray

> from the present tenses much, just trying to make their meaning clear by

> choosing a correct time word, but that strategy often resulted in

> miscommunication.  While they can get away with many of their errors in

> spoken communication, those same errors haunt them on the written pages

> that they have to write for their college courses.

>

>

>

>        They make these errors – consistently – even though they

> have had "massive input," as you say, for years – at least eight hours

> a day in school listening to teachers and other students.  However, I

> don't think they ever got any direct instruction in grammar because many

> of them were mainstreamed right away and never attended an ESL class.

>

>

>

>        I think what happens is that they surmise a rule, incorrectly,

> and don't pay attention to the input anymore after that.  We would speak

> of their English as being "fossilized" at that point and almost

> impossible to correct and change.

>

>          ----- Original Message -----

>          From: Steve Kaufmann

>          To: The Adult English Language Learners Discussion List

>          Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2009 8:46 PM

>          Subject: [EnglishLanguage 3659] Re: Post critical period oral

> L2 learning ofadults w/low L1 litearcy

>

>

>          I  believe that our brain will, with enough exposure to

> content that is relevant and interesting, start to sort out some rules

> relating to word order, and other aspects of the structure of the new

> language, with or without explicit grammar explanations and drills. Some

> degree of grammar review, corrections etc, are helpful but not

> necessary, and not as important as the massive input. Most learners

> attending ESL language class do not get enough input of English.

>

>          Some aspects of a new language may never stick. In English,

> articles are difficult for people form languages without articles. The

> spoken difference between "he" and "she"  is difficult for well educated

> Chinese people, even after ten or more years of grammar study, and even

> though the concept is not difficult and universally understood. It  just

> does not exist in Chinese, so it is hard to develop the natural ability

> to say "she" and "he" when required.

>

>          From my reading and observation, the brain sorts these things

> out on its own schedule, and slowly. Explanations and drills are

> relatively ineffective, but can help a little. Only lots of input will

> enable the brain to gradually get better, as long as there is a will,

> and the input continues. That has been my experience in learning Russian

> over the last 2 years, and that has been the experience of many others

> who are prepared to put in the time, listening and reading, according to

> what they have told me.

>

>          Obviously the non-reader is at a disadvantage. However,

> intensive listening on an iPod to content of interest could go a long

> way. However, I admit I have no experience with non-literate learners.

>

>          Steve Kaufmann

>          www.lingq.com

>

>

>          On Tue, Jan 27, 2009 at 3:58 PM, Elaine Tarone

> <etarone at umn.edu> wrote:

>

>            It is possible that formal teaching imposes accuracy

> standards that are very difficult to attain unless the learner is

> alphabetically literate.  I think this is particularly true of

> grammatical features that do not dramatically change the semantics, like

> word order in questions and final morphemes that are really redundant in

> context.   Maybe teachers can find other ways to communicate those

> standards (like use of cuisinaire rods to show word order shifts) to

> make the learner aware of the difference between their production and

> the accurate target.

>

>

>

>

>            On Jan 27, 2009, at 5:10 PM, Steve Kaufmann wrote:

>

>

>              Is it possible that formal teaching imposes accuracy

> standards on learners that are either not relevant to their own language

> goals, or applied too soon in their language development? We all know

> fluent speakers of English and other languages who make many mistakes.

>

>              Steve Kaufmann

>              www.lingq.com

>

>

>              On Tue, Jan 27, 2009 at 2:15 PM, Martha Bigelow

> <mbigelow at umn.edu> wrote:

>

>                Anne,

>

>                This is fascinating.  Would you happen to have a

> publication or citation you could share with the list yet?  I'm sure

> many would be very interested to read more, even if it is a handout.

> I'm often overwhelmed by the English language fluency and pragmatic

> skills of the teens I've worked with.  But sometimes the transcriptions

> show surprises!  They are not as accurate as they seem.

>

>                Martha

>

>

>

>

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>

>

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