Hello.
 
In some adult education  programs I have worked with,  students were on 
welfare and had to come to our classes (or risk losing benefits).  "Resource 
sharing"  meant using kindergarten readers for basic ESL adults.  This saved money 
but the practice was considered degrading by some staff, especially since the 
enrollees really had no choice in the matter.
 
Any thoughts from the list?
 
Ilene
_ihabramson at aol.com_ (mailto:ihabramson at aol.com) 
 
In a message dated 1/18/2009 10:21:42 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
BDiaz at dadeschools.net writes:

In our district,the last superintendent had the vision of a seamless K-adult 
program.  The adult ESOL program was the first one moved to a K-12 division 
under Curriculum and Development.  Moving our adult ESOL program, servicing 40, 
000+ students with 800+ teachers,  into the Division of Bilingual Education 
and World Languages helped establish a good professional working retation with  
K-12 folks. Their programs and ours have benefited from the merge in several 
ways:  professional development, resource sharing, community outreach and 
policy making. 

This is the third year of our joint venture and it gets better everyday as 
both groups collaborate to service our English learners.  We have saved money, a 
good thing in budget tight times, and have learned from each other so 
practitioners and administrators from both programs (K-12 and adult) now have common 
goals that    have lead to better service and more community outreach.


________________________________

From: englishlanguage-bounces at nifl.gov on behalf of Martin Senger
Sent: Fri 1/16/2009 7:46 AM
To: The Adult English Language Learners Discussion List
Subject: [EnglishLanguage 3449] Re: Cooperation between Adult ESL and K-12ESL



Pax et bonum Marieke!



I would love to hear more details about your group. Here in Erie (PA), the 
K-12 admin (I haven't contacted individual K-12 ESL teachers) establishment 
doesn't seem very interested in working with ABE. Did you find that also? Did you 
deal with the groups on a local/regional/state level? 



Do you have any existing teacher "networks" of either K-12 or ABE? We have 
the Professional Development Center (PDC), which is in charge of professional 
development for ABE teachers. They are an official part of the PA Dept of Ed. 
(PDE). Through them, we have created a very active teachers' network (the most 
active in the state), with around 5-10 participants every month (almost every 
adult ESL program in the area is represented). Our meetings are around 3 hours, 
and we usually have a guest speaker, but we also have time to just "debrief" 
with other ESL teachers. We have years of experience between the lot of us. We 
have become very good friends through our "commiserating." I haven't found 
anything (yet) similar in the K-12 field.



As of right now, there are NO lines of communication between us and the K-12 
crowd. Like I said, the local school admin has shown very little enthusiasm 
for cooperation. I would at least like to open one, so there would be some 
potential of communication and cooperation. Any suggestions?





Martin E. Senger

Adult ESL / Civics Teacher,

G.E.C.A.C. / The R. Banjamin Wiley Learning Center

Erie, Pa.

Co-Director,

ESL Special Interest Group

Pa. Assoc. for Adult Continuing Education (PAACE)



From: englishlanguage-bounces at nifl.gov 
[mailto:englishlanguage-bounces at nifl.gov] On Behalf Of Mareike Fitz
Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2009 3:47 PM
To: The Adult English Language Learners Discussion List
Subject: [EnglishLanguage 3436] Re: Cooperation between Adult ESL and K-12ESL



Martin,



The networking started with individual teachers from three different 
institutions (2 school and 1 non-profit ABE).  We met and put together a mini 
"language learning" workshop/ conference.  This included a local specialist in that 
field as a keynote speaker, I modeled a German class for the attendees to 
analyze, and we finished in an activity swap.  The overall topic was learning 
strategies.  We invited teachers, volunteer tutors and any language learning 
enthusiasts to participate. Around 25 attended, which is quite significant for a town 
of 8000.  

In this 1st meeting we surveyed the participants about their interest in 
pursuing our meetings.  Most were very interested and many were happy to volunteer 
as a presenter in the future.  We will meet again in a couple of months and 
have different presenters.  

Since financial means for regular visits of conferences are rare for us these 
days this project is an affordable way to share the knowledge we have and 
benefit from each other.



Greetings from snowy Wyoming,

Mareike



Mareike Fitz

Adult Program Director

(307)733 9242 ext. 226

mareike at tetonliteracy.org









On Jan 15, 2009, at 12:18 PM, Martin Senger wrote:





Pax et bonum Marieke!



Could you offer some specifics on how the groups came together, or what do 
they do currently?



Martin E. Senger

Adult ESL / Civics Teacher,

G.E.C.A.C. / The R. Banjamin Wiley Learning Center

Erie, Pa.

Co-Director,

ESL Special Interest Group

Pa. Assoc. for Adult Continuing Education (PAACE)



From: englishlanguage-bounces at nifl.gov 
[mailto:englishlanguage-bounces at nifl.gov] On Behalf Of Mareike Fitz
Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2009 11:44 AM
To: The Adult English Language Learners Discussion List
Subject: [EnglishLanguage 3429] Re: Cooperation between Adult ESL and K-12ESL



This is a very interesting discussion for me to follow.  Thanks for the 
contributions. I agree that working with adults is very different from working with 
children and youths in the schools.  However, the difference is small enough 
for teachers in both areas to learn from each other.



To answer Martin's question, yes, there is cooperation between Adult ESL and 
teachers where I live.  Just recently educators in schools as well as teaching 
staff from the adult program I work with have started getting together for 
small workshops.  The goal of these meetings is to share our resources/ ideas 
and to create a network.  It has been very successful so far. I would highly 
recommend it for anybody.  Amongst others having the possibility to observe 
different teachers classes has been a great benefit.  



mareike



Mareike Fitz

Adult Program Director

(307)733 9242 ext. 226

mareike at tetonliteracy.org










On Jan 15, 2009, at 9:02 AM, cece valentine wrote:






Athough I have completed studies for a Master's in Early Childhood and am 
currently certified nk-8, I have found it is a whole different ball game teaching 
adults.  I received a certificate for TESOL from Indian River Community 
College, it's offered online and they have loads of links and readings for you.  
Teaching adults is an adult experience for sure!! I taught on the community 
college level also classes for students in a Nurse's Aid Program, many of whom 
were GED graduates.



cgvalentine



--- On Thu, 1/15/09, Glenda Lynn Rose <glyndalin at yahoo.com> wrote:



From: Glenda Lynn Rose <glyndalin at yahoo.com>

Subject: [EnglishLanguage 3413] Re: Cooperation between Adult ESL and K-12 ESL

To: "The Adult English Language Learners Discussion List" 
<englishlanguage at nifl.gov>

Date: Thursday, January 15, 2009, 9:56 AM

"Since

my program is strictly for parents with young children and

the topics pertain to school related vocabulary and events I

prefer to hire K-12 ESOL.  At the same time I have had

a couple K-12 teachers that had a difficult time adjusting

their teaching style to a room full of

adults."



I find it strange that you would

prefer to hire people who are trained in pedgagogy, not

andragogy, to teach adults.  I understand the

relationship between the two programs, but can you tell me

what in your experience causes you to lean that way? 

Were the adult ESOL teachers (that apprently didn't do

well in your program) actually trained in applied

linguistics or adult education?  It has been my

experience that many K-6 teachers have difficulty

making the transition to adult education without a great

deal of additional training and support.









Grace and Peace!

Glenda Lynn

Rose, PhD



Instuctor, 

Austin Learning

Academy

841-4777





--- On Thu, 1/15/09, Mangum, Laurie (ACE)

<Laura.Mangum1 at fcps.edu> wrote:



From: Mangum, Laurie (ACE)

<Laura.Mangum1 at fcps.edu>

Subject: [EnglishLanguage 3412] Re: Cooperation between

Adult ESL and K-12 ESL

To: "The Adult English Language Learners Discussion

List" <englishlanguage at nifl.gov>

Date: Thursday, January 15, 2009, 8:38 AM

















Martin



I work

closely with the K-12 ESOL office but fall under the Adult

ESOL umbrella.  My program is Family Literacy which is

free to parents of elementary school parents and funded by

the K-12 Office using Title III funds.  My program has

been the main link between the two offices for a

while.  As budgets decrease in our system we have had

more meetings between the two groups to see how we can work

together.  Typically advertising the adult classes at

parent events has been the main link between the two

organizations.  I have hired both K-12 ESOL teachers

and Adult ESOL teachers in my program and do see a

difference in their teaching.  Since my program is

strictly for parents with young children and the topics

pertain to school related vocabulary and events I prefer to

hire K-12 ESOL.  At the same time I have

had a couple K-12 teachers that had a difficult time

adjusting their teaching style to a room full of

adults.



Laurie

Mangum

Family Literacy

Specialist/Adult ESOL

Fairfax County

Public Schools

Adult &

Community Education

Plum

Center for Lifelong

Learning

6815 Edsall

Rd. 

Springfield , VA 22151













From:

englishlanguage-bounces at nifl.gov

[mailto:englishlanguage-bounces at nifl.gov] On Behalf Of Martin

Senger

Sent:

Thursday, January 15, 2009 8:02 AM

To: The Adult

English Language Learners Discussion List

Subject:

[EnglishLanguage 3411] Cooperation between Adult ESL and

K-12 ESL



Pax

et bonum! (peace & goodness)



In

your area, is there any/much cooperation between the Adult

ESL field (teachers/administrators/professional

development/research) and K-12?



I

work with several adult ESL teacher networks, but have very,

very limited contact with the K-12 crowd. Is that the norm,

or are we "special?" I have just talked with the PA Dept

of Ed/K-12 ESL section, and they said we could use their

professional development (when pertinent). I just think

it's funny that we have people doing basically the same

thing (ESL), but in completely different circles. Is there a

big enough difference between adult ed and K-12 to warrant

two individual fields? What say you?





Martin

E. Senger


Adult

ESL / Civics Teacher,

G.E.C.A.C.

/ The R. Banjamin Wiley Learning Center

Erie,

Pa.

Co-Director,

ESL

Special Interest Group

Pa.

Assoc. for Adult Continuing Education

(PAACE)







From:

englishlanguage-bounces at nifl.gov

[mailto:englishlanguage-bounces at nifl.gov] On Behalf Of Brigitte

Marshall

Sent:

Wednesday, January 14, 2009 11:34 PM

To: The Adult

English Language Learners Discussion List

Subject:

[EnglishLanguage 3410] Re: FW: Re:

managingprogramsforadultEnglishlearners



So many

of us who have pursued management of ESL Programs as a next

step in our journey as ESL professionals are very committed

to keeping the direct and real connection with the

classroom. Several posters to this list discussion have

talked about the value of remaining engaged at the classroom

level because of their love of teaching and/or their desire

to remain connected to students. I know that for a couple of

years I struggled to juggle both, being an administrator and

a classroom teacher, and in the end I discovered a way to

feed my need to teach and stay connected more directly to

students at the same time in a way that I had not

anticipated. My motivation has always emanated from a

commitment to refugee and immigrant students, but when I was

asked to teach in an adult credentialing programming, I

discovered a whole new way of

contributing something that I thought would ultimately be

of benefit to refugees and immigrants. Working with teachers

as they are learning their craft can be wonderfully

rewarding and provided me with the opportunity to engage

with teachers in a way that was not evaluative or

supervisory - which raises another question I have been

wondering about....



When I

was going through the administrative credentialing program,

the professor who was leading the section on supervision and

evaluation made a couple of very strong recommendations; the

first was that administrators and program managers should

not try to be instructional experts and should not try to

critique the teachers they were supervising and observing

from a place of expertise. The second was that as the

supervisor and/or evaluator, an administrator or program

manager is very ill positioned to be a coach, or the person

identified to help and support a teacher because the

supervisory dynamic will get in the way. 

What do

others think about these recommendations? 

Can ESL

Program Managers continue over time to be experts on

instructional practice, or should they acknowledge that

being out of the classroom either entirely or more than they

are in it, reduces their ability to speak from a platform of

expertise? And if an ESL Program Manager does not speak from

a platform of instructional and specific ESL expertise, how

do they effectively manage and supervise?

Do you

agree that administrators and program managers are not the

best people to be coaches for teachers who need support to

develop their craft? If not the Program manager, then

who?





Brigitte

Marshall, Director

Oakland

Adult and Career Education

McClymonds

Education Complex

2607

Myrtle Street,

Oakland , CA 94607



Tel:

(510) 879 3037

Fax:

(510) 452 2077 



Expect

Success. Every student. Every classroom. Every

day.









From:

englishlanguage-bounces at nifl.gov

[mailto:englishlanguage-bounces at nifl.gov] On Behalf Of Diaz,

Beatriz B.

Sent:

Tuesday, January 13, 2009 7:05 PM

To: The Adult

English Language Learners Discussion List

Subject: RE:

[EnglishLanguage 3347] Re: FW: Re: managing

programsforadultEnglishlearners







As the

"leader" of a very large Adult ESOL program, 

I wear many hats but more and more I find it difficult to

get away from my "administrator crown", which

is the one I like the least.  I strongly believe that

programs improve and better service students if leaders are

in the  class, in the centers and in the community

facilating English literacy opportunities and expanding

our learning communities. Unfortunately, many hours of my

day are spent processing the right form, approving purchase

orders and attending meetings.  Is this typical of

others in similar positions?  How have other achieved a

balance short of putting in 20 hours of work per

day?











From:

englishlanguage-bounces at nifl.gov on behalf of Betsy Wong

Sent: Tue

1/13/2009 10:50 AM

To: 'The

Adult English Language Learners Discussion List'

Subject:

[EnglishLanguage 3347] Re: FW: Re: managing

programsforadultEnglishlearners



In keeping with the spirit of a

chain dialogue, I wanted to highlight

something that Laurie said:



"What I find more important is recognizing really good

teaching methods and

resources available and providing opportunities to share

those in your

program."



I think that this is a really important part of a program

manager's role,

and it gets back to the points that have been made about

striving to be a

visionary and achieving balance.



It also points to a solution to a dilemma that many of us

face: In the face

of shrunken resources, what can we offer teachers when

salary increases or

full-time positions are simply not on the table?



I think that professional development opportunities can be

something to help

"sell" a program to a prospective teacher and

help motivate (and retain)

current teachers. This can be through formal in-service

meetings responding

to teachers' stated needs or informal discussions or

focus groups that allow

teachers to share ideas and give input on program

decisions.  



What do the rest of you think? Suggestions?



Betsy Lindeman Wong

Lead ESL Teacher

Alexandria Adult and Community Education



-----Original Message-----

From: englishlanguage-bounces at nifl.gov

[mailto:englishlanguage-bounces at nifl.gov]

On Behalf Of Mangum, Laurie (ACE)

Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2009 9:18 AM

To: englishlanguage at nifl.gov

Subject: [EnglishLanguage 3342] FW: Re: managing programs

foradultEnglishlearners



I wanted to respond to Brigitte's thought



"I think it would be very interesting to explore this

last point a

little

bit more. We have already asked if we think that ESOL

Program Managers

should ideally have ESOL classroom

experience - but what do we think

about the need for an effective ESOL Program Manager to

have been a

good, or really good teacher? Is this a necessary

pre-requisite? And is

an effective ESOL Program manager's effectiveness

derived from their

ongoing expertise as a classroom instructor? Is it really

possible for

an ESOL Program Manager to remain current and a model of

good

instructional practice? If they don't, could they still

be able to

manage and supervise other ESL instructors

effectively?"





My name is Laurie Mangum, I manage the Family Literacy

program under

Adult ESOL for Fairfax County Public Schools.  I had

taught a

non-intensive ESOL class (first as a volunteer and then

paid) before

taking on the responsibility to coordinate this program but

I always

think of my professional background as a project

manager.  I am often

frustrated by the idea in Education that good teachers make

good

administrators.  I don't necessarily think being a

really good teacher

is a pre-requisite to running a really good program. 

What I find more

important is recognizing really good teaching methods and

resources

available and providing opportunities to share those in

your program.  I

see part of my job to be a consulting role and look for

best practices

to share with my staff.  Managing the many facets of a

program and being

adept at changing strategies when something isn't

working are also

instrumental to being successful in the role.  Or as

some people have

described my job: having the ability to juggle while

herding cats. 







Laurie Mangum

Family Literacy Specialist/Adult ESOL

Fairfax County Public Schools

Adult & Community Education

Plum Center for Lifelong Learning

6815 Edsall Rd.

Springfield , VA 22151



Phone: 

703-658-2760



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