This is a very interesting discussion for me to follow.  Thanks for  
the contributions. I agree that working with adults is very different  
from working with children and youths in the schools.  However, the  
difference is small enough for teachers in both areas to learn from  
each other.

To answer Martin's question, yes, there is cooperation between Adult  
ESL and teachers where I live.  Just recently educators in schools as  
well as teaching staff from the adult program I work with have  
started getting together for small workshops.  The goal of these  
meetings is to share our resources/ ideas and to create a network.   
It has been very successful so far. I would highly recommend it for  
anybody.  Amongst others having the possibility to observe different  
teachers classes has been a great benefit.

mareike

Mareike Fitz
Adult Program Director
(307)733 9242 ext. 226
mareike at tetonliteracy.org



On Jan 15, 2009, at 9:02 AM, cece valentine wrote:


> Athough I have completed studies for a Master's in Early Childhood  

> and am currently certified nk-8, I have found it is a whole  

> different ball game teaching adults.  I received a certificate for  

> TESOL from Indian River Community College, it's offered online and  

> they have loads of links and readings for you.  Teaching adults is  

> an adult experience for sure!! I taught on the community college  

> level also classes for students in a Nurse's Aid Program, many of  

> whom were GED graduates.

>

> cgvalentine

>

> --- On Thu, 1/15/09, Glenda Lynn Rose <glyndalin at yahoo.com> wrote:

>

>> From: Glenda Lynn Rose <glyndalin at yahoo.com>

>> Subject: [EnglishLanguage 3413] Re: Cooperation between Adult ESL  

>> and K-12 ESL

>> To: "The Adult English Language Learners Discussion List"  

>> <englishlanguage at nifl.gov>

>> Date: Thursday, January 15, 2009, 9:56 AM

>> "Since

>> my program is strictly for parents with young children and

>> the topics pertain to school related vocabulary and events I

>> prefer to hire K-12 ESOL.  At the same time I have had

>> a couple K-12 teachers that had a difficult time adjusting

>> their teaching style to a room full of

>> adults."

>>

>> I find it strange that you would

>> prefer to hire people who are trained in pedgagogy, not

>> andragogy, to teach adults.  I understand the

>> relationship between the two programs, but can you tell me

>> what in your experience causes you to lean that way?

>> Were the adult ESOL teachers (that apprently didn't do

>> well in your program) actually trained in applied

>> linguistics or adult education?  It has been my

>> experience that many K-6 teachers have difficulty

>> making the transition to adult education without a great

>> deal of additional training and support.

>>

>>

>>

>>

>> Grace and Peace!

>> Glenda Lynn

>> Rose, PhD

>>

>> Instuctor,

>> Austin Learning

>> Academy

>> 841-4777

>>

>>

>> --- On Thu, 1/15/09, Mangum, Laurie (ACE)

>> <Laura.Mangum1 at fcps.edu> wrote:

>>

>> From: Mangum, Laurie (ACE)

>> <Laura.Mangum1 at fcps.edu>

>> Subject: [EnglishLanguage 3412] Re: Cooperation between

>> Adult ESL and K-12 ESL

>> To: "The Adult English Language Learners Discussion

>> List" <englishlanguage at nifl.gov>

>> Date: Thursday, January 15, 2009, 8:38 AM

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>> Martin

>>

>> I work

>> closely with the K-12 ESOL office but fall under the Adult

>> ESOL umbrella.  My program is Family Literacy which is

>> free to parents of elementary school parents and funded by

>> the K-12 Office using Title III funds.  My program has

>> been the main link between the two offices for a

>> while.  As budgets decrease in our system we have had

>> more meetings between the two groups to see how we can work

>> together.  Typically advertising the adult classes at

>> parent events has been the main link between the two

>> organizations.  I have hired both K-12 ESOL teachers

>> and Adult ESOL teachers in my program and do see a

>> difference in their teaching.  Since my program is

>> strictly for parents with young children and the topics

>> pertain to school related vocabulary and events I prefer to

>> hire K-12 ESOL.  At the same time I have

>>  had a couple K-12 teachers that had a difficult time

>> adjusting their teaching style to a room full of

>> adults.

>>

>> Laurie

>> Mangum

>> Family Literacy

>> Specialist/Adult ESOL

>> Fairfax County

>> Public Schools

>> Adult &

>> Community Education

>> Plum

>> Center for Lifelong

>> Learning

>> 6815 Edsall

>> Rd.

>> Springfield , VA 22151

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>> From:

>> englishlanguage-bounces at nifl.gov

>> [mailto:englishlanguage-bounces at nifl.gov] On Behalf Of Martin

>> Senger

>> Sent:

>> Thursday, January 15, 2009 8:02 AM

>> To: The Adult

>> English Language Learners Discussion List

>> Subject:

>> [EnglishLanguage 3411] Cooperation between Adult ESL and

>> K-12 ESL

>>

>> Pax

>> et bonum! (peace & goodness)

>>

>> In

>> your area, is there any/much cooperation between the Adult

>> ESL field (teachers/administrators/professional

>> development/research) and K-12?

>>

>> I

>> work with several adult ESL teacher networks, but have very,

>> very limited contact with the K-12 crowd. Is that the norm,

>> or are we “special?” I have just talked with the PA Dept

>> of Ed/K-12 ESL section, and they said we could use their

>> professional development (when pertinent). I just think

>> it’s funny that we have people doing basically the same

>> thing (ESL), but in completely different circles. Is there a

>> big enough difference between adult ed and K-12 to warrant

>> two individual fields? What say you?

>>

>>

>> Martin

>> E. Senger

>> Adult

>> ESL / Civics Teacher,

>> G.E.C.A.C.

>> / The R. Banjamin Wiley Learning Center

>> Erie,

>> Pa.

>> Co-Director,

>> ESL

>> Special Interest Group

>> Pa.

>> Assoc. for Adult Continuing Education

>> (PAACE)

>>

>>

>>

>> From:

>> englishlanguage-bounces at nifl.gov

>> [mailto:englishlanguage-bounces at nifl.gov] On Behalf Of Brigitte

>> Marshall

>> Sent:

>> Wednesday, January 14, 2009 11:34 PM

>> To: The Adult

>> English Language Learners Discussion List

>> Subject:

>> [EnglishLanguage 3410] Re: FW: Re:

>> managingprogramsforadultEnglishlearners

>>

>> So many

>> of us who have pursued management of ESL Programs as a next

>> step in our journey as ESL professionals are very committed

>> to keeping the direct and real connection with the

>> classroom. Several posters to this list discussion have

>> talked about the value of remaining engaged at the classroom

>> level because of their love of teaching and/or their desire

>> to remain connected to students. I know that for a couple of

>> years I struggled to juggle both, being an administrator and

>> a classroom teacher, and in the end I discovered a way to

>> feed my need to teach and stay connected more directly to

>> students at the same time in a way that I had not

>> anticipated. My motivation has always emanated from a

>> commitment to refugee and immigrant students, but when I was

>> asked to teach in an adult credentialing programming, I

>> discovered a whole new way of

>>  contributing something that I thought would ultimately be

>> of benefit to refugees and immigrants. Working with teachers

>> as they are learning their craft can be wonderfully

>> rewarding and provided me with the opportunity to engage

>> with teachers in a way that was not evaluative or

>> supervisory – which raises another question I have been

>> wondering about….

>>

>> When I

>> was going through the administrative credentialing program,

>> the professor who was leading the section on supervision and

>> evaluation made a couple of very strong recommendations; the

>> first was that administrators and program managers should

>> not try to be instructional experts and should not try to

>> critique the teachers they were supervising and observing

>> from a place of expertise. The second was that as the

>> supervisor and/or evaluator, an administrator or program

>> manager is very ill positioned to be a coach, or the person

>> identified to help and support a teacher because the

>> supervisory dynamic will get in the way.

>> What do

>> others think about these recommendations?

>> Can ESL

>> Program Managers continue over time to be experts on

>> instructional practice, or should they acknowledge that

>> being out of the classroom either entirely or more than they

>> are in it, reduces their ability to speak from a platform of

>> expertise? And if an ESL Program Manager does not speak from

>> a platform of instructional and specific ESL expertise, how

>> do they effectively manage and supervise?

>> Do you

>> agree that administrators and program managers are not the

>> best people to be coaches for teachers who need support to

>> develop their craft? If not the Program manager, then

>> who?

>>

>>

>> Brigitte

>> Marshall, Director

>> Oakland

>> Adult and Career Education

>> McClymonds

>> Education Complex

>> 2607

>> Myrtle Street,

>> Oakland , CA 94607

>>

>> Tel:

>> (510) 879 3037

>> Fax:

>> (510) 452 2077

>>

>> Expect

>> Success. Every student. Every classroom. Every

>> day.

>>

>>

>>

>>

>> From:

>> englishlanguage-bounces at nifl.gov

>> [mailto:englishlanguage-bounces at nifl.gov] On Behalf Of Diaz,

>> Beatriz B.

>> Sent:

>> Tuesday, January 13, 2009 7:05 PM

>> To: The Adult

>> English Language Learners Discussion List

>> Subject: RE:

>> [EnglishLanguage 3347] Re: FW: Re: managing

>> programsforadultEnglishlearners

>>

>>

>>

>> As the

>> "leader" of a very large Adult ESOL program,

>> I wear many hats but more and more I find it difficult to

>> get away from my "administrator crown", which

>> is the one I like the least.  I strongly believe that

>> programs improve and better service students if leaders are

>> in the  class, in the centers and in the community

>> facilating English literacy opportunities and expanding

>> our learning communities. Unfortunately, many hours of my

>> day are spent processing the right form, approving purchase

>> orders and attending meetings.  Is this typical of

>> others in similar positions?  How have other achieved a

>> balance short of putting in 20 hours of work per

>> day?

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>> From:

>> englishlanguage-bounces at nifl.gov on behalf of Betsy Wong

>> Sent: Tue

>> 1/13/2009 10:50 AM

>> To: 'The

>> Adult English Language Learners Discussion List'

>> Subject:

>> [EnglishLanguage 3347] Re: FW: Re: managing

>> programsforadultEnglishlearners

>>

>> In keeping with the spirit of a

>> chain dialogue, I wanted to highlight

>> something that Laurie said:

>>

>> "What I find more important is recognizing really good

>> teaching methods and

>> resources available and providing opportunities to share

>> those in your

>> program."

>>

>> I think that this is a really important part of a program

>> manager's role,

>> and it gets back to the points that have been made about

>> striving to be a

>> visionary and achieving balance.

>>

>> It also points to a solution to a dilemma that many of us

>> face: In the face

>> of shrunken resources, what can we offer teachers when

>> salary increases or

>> full-time positions are simply not on the table?

>>

>> I think that professional development opportunities can be

>> something to help

>> "sell" a program to a prospective teacher and

>> help motivate (and retain)

>> current teachers. This can be through formal in-service

>>  meetings responding

>> to teachers' stated needs or informal discussions or

>> focus groups that allow

>> teachers to share ideas and give input on program

>> decisions.

>>

>> What do the rest of you think? Suggestions?

>>

>> Betsy Lindeman Wong

>> Lead ESL Teacher

>> Alexandria Adult and Community Education

>>

>> -----Original Message-----

>> From: englishlanguage-bounces at nifl.gov

>> [mailto:englishlanguage-bounces at nifl.gov]

>> On Behalf Of Mangum, Laurie (ACE)

>> Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2009 9:18 AM

>> To: englishlanguage at nifl.gov

>> Subject: [EnglishLanguage 3342] FW: Re: managing programs

>> foradultEnglishlearners

>>

>> I wanted to respond to Brigitte's thought

>>

>> "I think it would be very interesting to explore this

>> last point a

>> little

>> bit more. We have already asked if we think that ESOL

>> Program Managers

>> should ideally have ESOL classroom

>>  experience - but what do we think

>> about the need for an effective ESOL Program Manager to

>> have been a

>> good, or really good teacher? Is this a necessary

>> pre-requisite? And is

>> an effective ESOL Program manager's effectiveness

>> derived from their

>> ongoing expertise as a classroom instructor? Is it really

>> possible for

>> an ESOL Program Manager to remain current and a model of

>> good

>> instructional practice? If they don't, could they still

>> be able to

>> manage and supervise other ESL instructors

>> effectively?"

>>

>>

>> My name is Laurie Mangum, I manage the Family Literacy

>> program under

>> Adult ESOL for Fairfax County Public Schools.  I had

>> taught a

>> non-intensive ESOL class (first as a volunteer and then

>> paid) before

>> taking on the responsibility to coordinate this program but

>> I always

>> think of my professional background as a project

>> manager.  I am often

>> frustrated by the idea in Education that good teachers make

>>  good

>> administrators.  I don't necessarily think being a

>> really good teacher

>> is a pre-requisite to running a really good program.

>> What I find more

>> important is recognizing really good teaching methods and

>> resources

>> available and providing opportunities to share those in

>> your program.  I

>> see part of my job to be a consulting role and look for

>> best practices

>> to share with my staff.  Managing the many facets of a

>> program and being

>> adept at changing strategies when something isn't

>> working are also

>> instrumental to being successful in the role.  Or as

>> some people have

>> described my job: having the ability to juggle while

>> herding cats.

>>

>>

>>

>> Laurie Mangum

>> Family Literacy Specialist/Adult ESOL

>> Fairfax County Public Schools

>> Adult & Community Education

>> Plum Center for Lifelong Learning

>> 6815 Edsall Rd.

>> Springfield , VA 22151

>>

>> Phone:

>>  703-658-2760

>>

>> ----------------------------------------------------

>> National Institute for Literacy

>> Adult English Language Learners mailing list

>> EnglishLanguage at nifl.gov

>> To unsubscribe or change your subscription settings, please

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>> Email delivered to betsywong at comcast.net

>>

>> ----------------------------------------------------

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>> To unsubscribe or change your subscription settings, please

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>> Email delivered to

>>

>> bdiaz at dadeschools.net------------------------------------------------ 

>> ----

>> National Institute for Literacy

>> Adult English Language Learners mailing list

>> EnglishLanguage at nifl.gov

>> To unsubscribe or change your subscription settings, please

>> go to

>> http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/englishlanguage

>> Email delivered to

>> glyndalin at yahoo.com

>> -----Inline Attachment Follows-----

>>

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>

>

>

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