Andres--well, many are wrong.  Example:  the irish who came to New  
England  to work in the mills.  That they did, and got less money  
than the native  workers.  Thoreau?  his  little cabin?  Built with  
boards that had been used as the home of an Irish immigrant family..   
They sold the wood to Thoreau and went on the road. down to New  
England to

Students would have to specify exactly who came here to practice  
their religion, and who didn't.  Instead we get mushy thinking.

Andrea

On Sep 24, 2008, at 10:49 AM, Muro, Andres wrote:


> You are right Andrea. Many of the people that came to America were  

> speculators trying to get rich and had little tolerance for  

> difference. In fact they quickly massacred the native Americans,  

> later enslaved blacks and came up with a mandate to colonize the  

> “inferior” south.

>

>

>

> However, children are told that the original pilgrims came escaping  

> religious oppression and looking for a place where they could  

> practice their faith freely. In that sense, the 1st amendment of  

> the constitution  was written based on the tolerance of religious  

> difference, freedom of expression, etc, etc. In this sense, and  

> considering that it is the first amendment, many would argue that  

> people came here to be able to practice their unique beliefs w/o  

> harassment and express themselves freely.

>

>

>

> From: englishlanguage-bounces at nifl.gov [mailto:englishlanguage- 

> bounces at nifl.gov] On Behalf Of Andrea Wilder

> Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2008 5:07 PM

> To: The Adult English Language Learners Discussion List

> Subject: [EnglishLanguage 2867] Re: citizenship

>

>

>

> History again--

>

>

>

> What people came here looking for tolerance of difference?  Not  

> original Virginians, they came to get rich.  Plymouth Separatists  

> were financially supported a group in England--they were to send  

> back to England certain products--i forget right now, what, but  

> sassafras may have been in there.  By my reading, most of the  

> religious people were motivated by a wish to do their own religious  

> thing--tolerance not in there.

>

>

>

> Look for multiple motivations rather than pre-cut answers.

>

>

>

> Andrea

>

>

>

> On Sep 23, 2008, at 12:59 PM, Muro, Andres wrote:

>

>

>

>

> All three statements point to the importance of diversity. The  

> third one is not too clear to me, even though I think that  

> diversity makes a place more interesting, enjoyable with more  

> variety in terms of language, food, music, activity, etc.

>

>

>

> I enjoy cities like NYC, DC, LA, San Francisco, El Paso, and Miami  

> more than I enjoy cities that are uniform in culture. That is  

> personal. I really like Astoria in NYC and the Upper West side.

>

>

>

> The first statement, one would hope, were true, since people  

> historically came to the US looking for a place that would be  

> tolerant of difference.

>

>

>

> The second one promotes tolerance.

>

>

>

> None of these statements state that diversity is the one and only  

> thing, nor that they are more or less important than freedom,  

> healthcare, education or the right to vote. They simply state that  

> diversity is a very important theme.

>

>

>

> I would think that in the context of teaching diversity as one of  

> the topics that an English teacher may want to cover, none of these  

> statements are diluting other values that you or others may  

> embrace, such as freedom, equality, etc. However, being that  

> participants in the class are immigrants with different languages  

> and cultural values, pointing that this country embraces diversity  

> and difference may be a valuable thing to mention.

>

>

>

> This doesn't preclude stating that, for example, freedom is  

> something extremely important that we value in the US. In fact,  

> freedom and diversity go hand in hand.

>

>

>

> At another point in the class, a teacher may want to talk about  

> equality and how important it is. On a different opportunity  

> teachers may want to talk about health care, environmental  

> responsibility, etc, voting rights, accessible education, etc.

>

>

>

> While teachers may address all this topics in and English class,  

> particularly Civics education, I wouldn't think that any of these  

> are the be all and end all, but they are all terribly important.

>

>

>

> I personally think that quality of life is above everything and is  

> the be all and end all. However, I preface the statement with "I  

> personally think". You can say that I think  hat "high quality of  

> life" is the be all and end all. On the other hand, I don't think  

> that anyone stated that diversity is the be all and end all.

>

>

>

> Like Eduardo, I promise not to respond any more. I made the  

> horrible mistake of signing up for a philosophy of quantum physics  

> class and the tuition was much. I won't drop it but I am suffering  

> quite a lot. I haven't taken math in 22 years and all we do is  

> matrix algebra and differentials. So, I better go back to studying.

>

>

>

> Andres

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> Please visit my art website at:

>

> http://www.geocities.com/andresmuro/art.html

>

>

>

> From: englishlanguage-bounces at nifl.gov on behalf of Kearney Lykins

> Sent: Tue 9/23/2008 10:09 AM

> To: The Adult English Language Learners Discussion List

> Subject: [EnglishLanguage 2860] Re: citizenship

>

> Andres,

>

>

>

> Here are three examples from the past 24 hours where subscribers to  

> this list have suggested that diversity is numero uno:

>

>

>

>

>

> 1. "I also teach that diversity has been, is, and (hopefully)  

> always will be the bond that unites us as a nation."

>

>

>

> 2. "When I talk to teachers about Civics instruction, I emphasize  

> the importance of understanding and celebrating the rich cultural  

> background and traditions of our immigrant (sic) as they seek to  

> find their place in a new society. "

>

>

>

> 3. "Cultural diversity is ... terrific!"

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> Regards,

>

>

>

> Kearney

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> ----- Original Message ----

> From: "Muro, Andres" <amuro5 at epcc.edu>

> To: The Adult English Language Learners Discussion List  

> <englishlanguage at nifl.gov>; The Adult English Language Learners  

> Discussion List <englishlanguage at nifl.gov>

> Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2008 11:29:12 AM

> Subject: [EnglishLanguage 2857] Re: citizenship

>

> Same question that Eduardo asked: Can you cite examples?

>

>

>

> Diversity is merely a fact that you have when different groups live  

> together. Attempts to bleach difference result in resentment,  

> hostility and discrimination. However, stating that, I haven't seen  

> anyone saying the diversity is the be all and end all.

>

>

>

> Please visit my art website at:

>

> http://www.geocities.com/andresmuro/art.html

>

>

>

> From: englishlanguage-bounces at nifl.gov on behalf of Kearney Lykins

> Sent: Tue 9/23/2008 8:50 AM

> To: The Adult English Language Learners Discussion List

> Subject: [EnglishLanguage 2855] Re: citizenship

>

> Janet,

>

>

>

> I am saying that if you watch this list long enough, you'll see  

> that I am right when I say that many subscribers to this list view  

> "diversity" as a be-all and end-all, that they value "diversity" as  

> a societal virtue above all others.

>

>

>

> Cheers,

>

>

>

> Kearney

>

>

>

>

>

>

> ----- Original Message ----

> From: Janet Isserlis <Janet_Isserlis at brown.edu>

> To: The Adult English Language Learners Discussion List  

> <englishlanguage at nifl.gov>

> Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2008 10:18:30 AM

> Subject: [EnglishLanguage 2853] Re: citizenship

>

> Kearney

>

> What are you saying here?  Is this a threat? A promise?  A foreboding?

>

> We'll see what?

>

> Janet

>

> From: Kearney Lykins <kearney_lykins at yahoo.com>

> Reply-To: The Adult English Language Learners Discussion List  

> <englishlanguage at nifl.gov>

> Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2008 06:31:03 -0700 (PDT)

> To: The Adult English Language Learners Discussion List  

> <englishlanguage at nifl.gov>

> Subject: [EnglishLanguage 2850] Re: citizenship

>

> Eduaro,

>

>

>

> Stick around.  You'll see.

>

>

>

> Cheers,

>

>

>

> Kearney

>

> ----- Original Message ----

> From: Eduardo Honold <ehonol at sisd.net>

> To: The Adult English Language Learners Discussion List  

> <englishlanguage at nifl.gov>

> Sent: Monday, September 22, 2008 4:20:15 PM

> Subject: [EnglishLanguage 2843] Re: citizenship

>

> Kearney:

>

> I promise this will be my last post on this issue.  I couldn’t  

> agree more with you that freedom is a fundamental value in the U.S.  

> Constitution, and that valuing diversity is derivative of that  

> principle.  And I don’t believe there is anybody on this list who  

> would dispute this.  Diversity is an empirical religious, ethnic,  

> linguistic and cultural reality in the United States that,  

> thankfully, is protected by our laws and our Constitution (and not  

> without a struggle, I might add).   Diversity is an expression of  

> our freedom to choose who we are.  I have no idea who you are  

> referring to when you say that “diversity” has come to supplant  

> “freedom.”  I follow this list pretty regularly and I have never  

> seen any posts in which diversity is, as you say,  the “be-all and  

> end-all that many on this list make it out to be.”

>

> Regards,

>

>

>

> Eduardo Honold

>

> Far West Project GREAT Coordinator

>

> (915) 937-1703

>

> fax: (915) 937-1795

>

> SISD Community Services

>

> 313 S. Rio Vista Rd.

>

> El Paso, TX 79927

>

> www.farwestgreat.org <http://www.farwestgreat.org/>

>

> From: englishlanguage-bounces at nifl.gov [mailto:englishlanguage- 

> bounces at nifl.gov] On Behalf Of Kearney Lykins

> Sent: Monday, September 22, 2008 12:23 PM

> To: The Adult English Language Learners Discussion Li

> Subject: [EnglishLanguage 2837] Re: citizenship

>

>

> Eduardo, et al,

>

> I am only trying to make the point that diversity is not the be-all  

> and end-all that many on this list make it out to be.

>

> Diversity is a derivative of freedom; you have to have the freedom  

> before you can begin to entertain any notion of diversity. And thus  

> it is freedom that I would think we would be the most dedicated to  

> promoting, protecting, and celebrating, not diversity.  Especially  

> in a civics class.

>

> The first clause of the First Amendment provides a clear example of  

> the subordination of diversity to freedom.

>

> "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of  

> religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

>

> This clause does not speak to what people are allowed to do, but  

> only to what the government is not allowed to do; the people are  

> free from government control. Hence, the First Amendment could care  

> less if its language produces a nation that is 100% Methodist, or  

> if it spawns the creation of 5,000 sects of everything under the  

> sun. You might say that the First Amendment is utterly agnostic  

> regarding diversity.

>

> Because diverse individual choices are the by-product of limits on  

> government power, I don't understand how the term "diversity" has  

> come to supplant "freedom" as that which is worth attending to.  

> Diversity never made anyone free.

>

>

> Regards,

>

> Kearney

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> ----- Original Message ----

> From: Eduardo Honold <ehonol at sisd.net>

> To: The Adult English Language Learners Discussion List  

> <englishlanguage at nifl.gov>

> Sent: Friday, September 19, 2008 3:52:27 PM

> Subject: [EnglishLanguage 2816] Re: citizenship

>

> Dear Kearney ,

>

> I’m not sure it always productive to participate in a polemic about  

> the meaning of the Constitution or the original intent of its  

> writers, but, alas, I can’t  resist.   I am no scholar of the US  

> Constitution, but it seems to me that while the value of diversity  

> may not have been explicitly addressed by the Constitution, it is  

> clearly present in the Bill of Rights, particularly in the First  

> Amendment protection of our right as individuals from undue  

> interference by government in the establishment of religion and the  

> preservation of free speech.  I take these to mean that the  

> government has no business telling me (a relatively recent citizen)  

> what language I choose to speak at home, what movies I choose to  

> watch, or how I should conduct my spiritual business, if at all.   

> These are the values, I would argue, that make the U.S.  

> Constitution a particularly powerful document, and certainly make  

> me proud of being an American citizen.  It is particularly  

> interesting that you bring up the  Soviet Union --the old  

> Yugoslavia and Iraq under Sadam also come to mind—which, like  

> Yugoslavia and Iraq, used state power to suppress  cultural and  

> political identity only to have it blow up on their faces.

>

> When I talk to teachers about Civics instruction, I emphasize the  

> importance of understanding and celebrating the rich cultural  

> background and traditions of our immigrant as they seek to find  

> their place in a new society. I believe integration is more likely  

> to take place if immigrants feel that welcomed, valued and  

> respected by this society, and less likely to happen if it imposed  

> by legislative fiat and the heavy hand of the government.   

> Acculturation will take place eventually, especially as children  

> and grandchildren are born and raised in this country, and there is  

> very little evidence that respecting diversity has any impact on  

> the extent to which children of immigrants learn English or become  

> effective members of this society.  So there is actually very  

> little to fear from the promotion of diversity as a value, and much  

> to be gained from the idea that we come from different backgrounds  

> and experiences, but still manage to get along, work together, pray  

> (or not) without a grave danger to our society.

> It is interesting how we can get very defensive about the effect of  

> another culture on ours, as if there really were a monolithic  

> American experience that we are all protecting.   What are we  

> protecting?  Is it the notion of the United States as a Christian  

> nation? (The 1st amendment has a problem with that).  Is it the  

> notion that English should be the only language spoken by Americans  

> (This is already the case once you get past the first generation of  

> immigrants.)  Is it the vast array of cultural products coming out  

> of Hollywood studios and TV (Am I willing to die for MTV, reality  

> television, and Donald Duck?  Maybe not, but they are certainly an  

> integral aspect of our shared experience as Americans.)  The point  

> is that both immigrants and non-immigrants are constantly  

> processing the incredibly heterogeneous and contradictory meanings  

> of what it means to live in this society, and we all do the best we  

> can to find our own understanding of who we are in relation to the  

> whole.

>

> So Martin, keep discussing, celebrating and thinking about the  

> diverse nature of the American experience.  It will make all of us  

> stronger.

>

>

>

> Eduardo Honold

>

> Far West Project GREAT Coordinator

>

> (915) 937-1703

>

> fax: (915) 937-1795

>

> SISD Community Services

>

> 313 S. Rio Vista Rd.

>

> El Paso, TX 79927

>

> www.farwestgreat.org <http://www.farwestgreat.org/>

>

> From: englishlanguage-bounces at nifl.gov [mailto:englishlanguage- 

> bounces at nifl.gov] On Behalf Of Kearney Lykins

> Sent: Friday, September 19, 2008 9:04 AM

> To: The Adult English Language Learners Discussion List

> Subject: [EnglishLanguage 2810] Re: citizenship

>

>

> Martin,

>

>

>

> I second the notion that the best language classroom is not the  

> classroom at all, but all those other real world places outside it.  

> But I have to take issue with your civics lesson.

>

>

>

> In our nation's founding documents (e.g., The Declaration of  

> Independence, The Consititution), and in the arguments (e.g. The  

> Federalist Papers) that sought to bind us together in the first  

> place, and in the second place (Lincoln's First and Second  

> Inaugurals), I find no mention of "diversity" as the glue that  

> bonds this nation. In fact, diversity (faction, competing  

> interests, etc.) was named as the force which threatened to tear us  

> apart.

>

>

>

> Rather, it has always been the common love of  liberty (defined at  

> the founding as limited, decentralized government) and not  

> diversity, which has united us to the extent that we are, and which  

> continues to attract people from places where liberty is but a vapor.

>

>

>

> Sure we are all different, but so was the Soviet Union with its 200  

> distinct ethnic groups.

>

>

>

> Diversity is not the main attraction.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> Regards,

>

>

>

> Kearney

>

>

>

>

>

>

> ----- Original Message ----

> From: Martin Senger <MSenger at GECAC.org>

> To: The Adult English Language Learners Discussion List  

> <englishlanguage at nifl.gov>

> Sent: Friday, September 19, 2008 8:17:42 AM

> Subject: [EnglishLanguage 2809] Re: citizenship

>

> Pax Stephen!

>

> I am a civics teacher for adults here in the US . I always stress  

> that by learning about their new country, they are more apt to  

> become involved in that environment, which is the best language  

> classroom ever. Most of my students have limited access to an  

> English-language environment, since they speak their L1 at home  

> with family, and their social circles are often restricted to that  

> L1. I always tell my students that if the only time they speak  

> English is in my classroom, I will require them to buy me a nice  

> retirement gift, because they will be in my class for the next 40  

> years!

>

> I also teach that diversity has been, is, and (hopefully) always  

> will be the bond that unites us as a nation. So it is perfectly  

> acceptable to be completely different than everyone around you,  

> just like everyone else! Viva le difference! (I hope my English is  

> better than my French!)

>

> Ciao!

>

>

> Martin E. Senger

>

> Adult ESL Teacher

>

> GECAC / The R. Benjamin Wiley Learning Center

>

> Erie, Pa

>

> 814-490-8510

>

>

> -----Original Message-----

> From: englishlanguage-bounces at nifl.gov [mailto:englishlanguage- 

> bounces at nifl.gov] On Behalf Of Stephen Woulds

> Sent: Friday, September 19, 2008 12:50 AM

> To: englishlanguage at nifl.gov

> Subject: [EnglishLanguage 2808] citizenship

>

>

> Hi

>

> This website was created to help those teaching/learning English  

> develop an understanding of citizenship as it relates to the United  

> Kingdom . http://www.esoluk.co.uk <http://www.esoluk.co.uk/>  There  

> are however many people in the UK who are opposed to the teaching  

> of 'citizenship'. It is becoming a hot political issue,  

> particularly as language ability and cultural knowledge are being  

> used as gate-keeping processes for entry into the UK . I'm  

> wondering what other people's thoughts are on the teaching of  

> citizenship to migrants, asylum seekers, etc, particularly within  

> their own national contexts.

>

>

>

>

>

>

> ----------------------------------------------------

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> Adult English Language Learners mailing list

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> To unsubscribe or change your subscription settings, please go to  

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> Email delivered to janet_isserlis at brown.edu

>

>

>

>

>

> ----------------------------------------------------

>

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>

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>

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>

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>

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>

>

>

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