History again--

What people came here looking for tolerance of difference?  Not  
original Virginians, they came to get rich.  Plymouth Separatists  
were financially supported a group in England--they were to send back  
to England certain products--i forget right now, what, but sassafras  
may have been in there.  By my reading, most of the religious people  
were motivated by a wish to do their own religious thing--tolerance  
not in there.

Look for multiple motivations rather than pre-cut answers.

Andrea

On Sep 23, 2008, at 12:59 PM, Muro, Andres wrote:


> All three statements point to the importance of diversity. The  

> third one is not too clear to me, even though I think that  

> diversity makes a place more interesting, enjoyable with more  

> variety in terms of language, food, music, activity, etc.

>

> I enjoy cities like NYC, DC, LA, San Francisco, El Paso, and Miami  

> more than I enjoy cities that are uniform in culture. That is  

> personal. I really like Astoria in NYC and the Upper West side.

>

> The first statement, one would hope, were true, since people  

> historically came to the US looking for a place that would be  

> tolerant of difference.

>

> The second one promotes tolerance.

>

> None of these statements state that diversity is the one and only  

> thing, nor that they are more or less important than freedom,  

> healthcare, education or the right to vote. They simply state that  

> diversity is a very important theme.

>

> I would think that in the context of teaching diversity as one of  

> the topics that an English teacher may want to cover, none of these  

> statements are diluting other values that you or others may  

> embrace, such as freedom, equality, etc. However, being that  

> participants in the class are immigrants with different languages  

> and cultural values, pointing that this country embraces diversity  

> and difference may be a valuable thing to mention.

>

> This doesn't preclude stating that, for example, freedom is  

> something extremely important that we value in the US. In fact,  

> freedom and diversity go hand in hand.

>

> At another point in the class, a teacher may want to talk about  

> equality and how important it is. On a different opportunity  

> teachers may want to talk about health care, environmental  

> responsibility, etc, voting rights, accessible education, etc.

>

> While teachers may address all this topics in and English class,  

> particularly Civics education, I wouldn't think that any of these  

> are the be all and end all, but they are all terribly important.

>

> I personally think that quality of life is above everything and is  

> the be all and end all. However, I preface the statement with "I  

> personally think". You can say that I think  hat "high quality of  

> life" is the be all and end all. On the other hand, I don't think  

> that anyone stated that diversity is the be all and end all.

>

> Like Eduardo, I promise not to respond any more. I made the  

> horrible mistake of signing up for a philosophy of quantum physics  

> class and the tuition was much. I won't drop it but I am suffering  

> quite a lot. I haven't taken math in 22 years and all we do is  

> matrix algebra and differentials. So, I better go back to studying.

>

> Andres

>

>

>

> Please visit my art website at:

> http://www.geocities.com/andresmuro/art.html

>

> From: englishlanguage-bounces at nifl.gov on behalf of Kearney Lykins

> Sent: Tue 9/23/2008 10:09 AM

> To: The Adult English Language Learners Discussion List

> Subject: [EnglishLanguage 2860] Re: citizenship

>

> Andres,

>

> Here are three examples from the past 24 hours where subscribers to  

> this list have suggested that diversity is numero uno:

>

>

> 1. "I also teach that diversity has been, is, and (hopefully)  

> always will be the bond that unites us as a nation."

>

> 2. "When I talk to teachers about Civics instruction, I emphasize  

> the importance of understanding and celebrating the rich cultural  

> background and traditions of our immigrant (sic) as they seek to  

> find their place in a new society. "

>

> 3. "Cultural diversity is ... terrific!"

>

>

>

> Regards,

>

> Kearney

>

>

>

>

> ----- Original Message ----

> From: "Muro, Andres" <amuro5 at epcc.edu>

> To: The Adult English Language Learners Discussion List  

> <englishlanguage at nifl.gov>; The Adult English Language Learners  

> Discussion List <englishlanguage at nifl.gov>

> Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2008 11:29:12 AM

> Subject: [EnglishLanguage 2857] Re: citizenship

>

> Same question that Eduardo asked: Can you cite examples?

>

> Diversity is merely a fact that you have when different groups live  

> together. Attempts to bleach difference result in resentment,  

> hostility and discrimination. However, stating that, I haven't seen  

> anyone saying the diversity is the be all and end all.

>

> Please visit my art website at:

> http://www.geocities.com/andresmuro/art.html

>

> From: englishlanguage-bounces at nifl.gov on behalf of Kearney Lykins

> Sent: Tue 9/23/2008 8:50 AM

> To: The Adult English Language Learners Discussion List

> Subject: [EnglishLanguage 2855] Re: citizenship

>

> Janet,

>

>

> I am saying that if you watch this list long enough, you'll see  

> that I am right when I say that many subscribers to this list view  

> "diversity" as a be-all and end-all, that they value "diversity" as  

> a societal virtue above all others.

>

>

> Cheers,

>

>

> Kearney

>

>

>

>

> ----- Original Message ----

> From: Janet Isserlis <Janet_Isserlis at brown.edu>

> To: The Adult English Language Learners Discussion List  

> <englishlanguage at nifl.gov>

> Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2008 10:18:30 AM

> Subject: [EnglishLanguage 2853] Re: citizenship

>

> Kearney

>

> What are you saying here?  Is this a threat? A promise?  A foreboding?

>

> We'll see what?

>

> Janet

>

> From: Kearney Lykins <kearney_lykins at yahoo.com>

> Reply-To: The Adult English Language Learners Discussion List  

> <englishlanguage at nifl.gov>

> Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2008 06:31:03 -0700 (PDT)

> To: The Adult English Language Learners Discussion List  

> <englishlanguage at nifl.gov>

> Subject: [EnglishLanguage 2850] Re: citizenship

>

> Eduaro,

>

>

>

> Stick around.  You'll see.

>

>

>

> Cheers,

>

>

>

> Kearney

>

> ----- Original Message ----

> From: Eduardo Honold <ehonol at sisd.net>

> To: The Adult English Language Learners Discussion List  

> <englishlanguage at nifl.gov>

> Sent: Monday, September 22, 2008 4:20:15 PM

> Subject: [EnglishLanguage 2843] Re: citizenship

>

> Kearney:

>

> I promise this will be my last post on this issue.  I couldn’t  

> agree more with you that freedom is a fundamental value in the U.S.  

> Constitution, and that valuing diversity is derivative of that  

> principle.  And I don’t believe there is anybody on this list who  

> would dispute this.  Diversity is an empirical religious, ethnic,  

> linguistic and cultural reality in the United States that,  

> thankfully, is protected by our laws and our Constitution (and not  

> without a struggle, I might add).   Diversity is an expression of  

> our freedom to choose who we are.  I have no idea who you are  

> referring to when you say that “diversity” has come to supplant  

> “freedom.”  I follow this list pretty regularly and I have never  

> seen any posts in which diversity is, as you say,  the “be-all and  

> end-all that many on this list make it out to be.”

>

> Regards,

>

>

>

> Eduardo Honold

>

> Far West Project GREAT Coordinator

>

> (915) 937-1703

>

> fax: (915) 937-1795

>

> SISD Community Services

>

> 313 S. Rio Vista Rd.

>

> El Paso, TX 79927

>

> www.farwestgreat.org <http://www.farwestgreat.org/>

>

> From: englishlanguage-bounces at nifl.gov [mailto:englishlanguage- 

> bounces at nifl.gov] On Behalf Of Kearney Lykins

> Sent: Monday, September 22, 2008 12:23 PM

> To: The Adult English Language Learners Discussion Li

> Subject: [EnglishLanguage 2837] Re: citizenship

>

>

> Eduardo, et al,

>

> I am only trying to make the point that diversity is not the be-all  

> and end-all that many on this list make it out to be.

>

> Diversity is a derivative of freedom; you have to have the freedom  

> before you can begin to entertain any notion of diversity. And thus  

> it is freedom that I would think we would be the most dedicated to  

> promoting, protecting, and celebrating, not diversity.  Especially  

> in a civics class.

>

> The first clause of the First Amendment provides a clear example of  

> the subordination of diversity to freedom.

>

> "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of  

> religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

>

> This clause does not speak to what people are allowed to do, but  

> only to what the government is not allowed to do; the people are  

> free from government control. Hence, the First Amendment could care  

> less if its language produces a nation that is 100% Methodist, or  

> if it spawns the creation of 5,000 sects of everything under the  

> sun. You might say that the First Amendment is utterly agnostic  

> regarding diversity.

>

> Because diverse individual choices are the by-product of limits on  

> government power, I don't understand how the term "diversity" has  

> come to supplant "freedom" as that which is worth attending to.  

> Diversity never made anyone free.

>

>

> Regards,

>

> Kearney

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> ----- Original Message ----

> From: Eduardo Honold <ehonol at sisd.net>

> To: The Adult English Language Learners Discussion List  

> <englishlanguage at nifl.gov>

> Sent: Friday, September 19, 2008 3:52:27 PM

> Subject: [EnglishLanguage 2816] Re: citizenship

>

> Dear Kearney ,

>

> I’m not sure it always productive to participate in a polemic about  

> the meaning of the Constitution or the original intent of its  

> writers, but, alas, I can’t  resist.   I am no scholar of the US  

> Constitution, but it seems to me that while the value of diversity  

> may not have been explicitly addressed by the Constitution, it is  

> clearly present in the Bill of Rights, particularly in the First  

> Amendment protection of our right as individuals from undue  

> interference by government in the establishment of religion and the  

> preservation of free speech.  I take these to mean that the  

> government has no business telling me (a relatively recent citizen)  

> what language I choose to speak at home, what movies I choose to  

> watch, or how I should conduct my spiritual business, if at all.   

> These are the values, I would argue, that make the U.S.  

> Constitution a particularly powerful document, and certainly make  

> me proud of being an American citizen.  It is particularly  

> interesting that you bring up the  Soviet Union --the old  

> Yugoslavia and Iraq under Sadam also come to mind—which, like  

> Yugoslavia and Iraq, used state power to suppress  cultural and  

> political identity only to have it blow up on their faces.

>

> When I talk to teachers about Civics instruction, I emphasize the  

> importance of understanding and celebrating the rich cultural  

> background and traditions of our immigrant as they seek to find  

> their place in a new society. I believe integration is more likely  

> to take place if immigrants feel that welcomed, valued and  

> respected by this society, and less likely to happen if it imposed  

> by legislative fiat and the heavy hand of the government.   

> Acculturation will take place eventually, especially as children  

> and grandchildren are born and raised in this country, and there is  

> very little evidence that respecting diversity has any impact on  

> the extent to which children of immigrants learn English or become  

> effective members of this society.  So there is actually very  

> little to fear from the promotion of diversity as a value, and much  

> to be gained from the idea that we come from different backgrounds  

> and experiences, but still manage to get along, work together, pray  

> (or not) without a grave danger to our society.

> It is interesting how we can get very defensive about the effect of  

> another culture on ours, as if there really were a monolithic  

> American experience that we are all protecting.   What are we  

> protecting?  Is it the notion of the United States as a Christian  

> nation? (The 1st amendment has a problem with that).  Is it the  

> notion that English should be the only language spoken by Americans  

> (This is already the case once you get past the first generation of  

> immigrants.)  Is it the vast array of cultural products coming out  

> of Hollywood studios and TV (Am I willing to die for MTV, reality  

> television, and Donald Duck?  Maybe not, but they are certainly an  

> integral aspect of our shared experience as Americans.)  The point  

> is that both immigrants and non-immigrants are constantly  

> processing the incredibly heterogeneous and contradictory meanings  

> of what it means to live in this society, and we all do the best we  

> can to find our own understanding of who we are in relation to the  

> whole.

>

> So Martin, keep discussing, celebrating and thinking about the  

> diverse nature of the American experience.  It will make all of us  

> stronger.

>

>

>

> Eduardo Honold

>

> Far West Project GREAT Coordinator

>

> (915) 937-1703

>

> fax: (915) 937-1795

>

> SISD Community Services

>

> 313 S. Rio Vista Rd.

>

> El Paso, TX 79927

>

> www.farwestgreat.org <http://www.farwestgreat.org/>

>

>

> From: englishlanguage-bounces at nifl.gov [mailto:englishlanguage- 

> bounces at nifl.gov] On Behalf Of Kearney Lykins

> Sent: Friday, September 19, 2008 9:04 AM

> To: The Adult English Language Learners Discussion List

> Subject: [EnglishLanguage 2810] Re: citizenship

>

>

> Martin,

>

>

>

> I second the notion that the best language classroom is not the  

> classroom at all, but all those other real world places outside it.  

> But I have to take issue with your civics lesson.

>

>

>

> In our nation's founding documents (e.g., The Declaration of  

> Independence, The Consititution), and in the arguments (e.g. The  

> Federalist Papers) that sought to bind us together in the first  

> place, and in the second place (Lincoln's First and Second  

> Inaugurals), I find no mention of "diversity" as the glue that  

> bonds this nation. In fact, diversity (faction, competing  

> interests, etc.) was named as the force which threatened to tear us  

> apart.

>

>

>

> Rather, it has always been the common love of  liberty (defined at  

> the founding as limited, decentralized government) and not  

> diversity, which has united us to the extent that we are, and which  

> continues to attract people from places where liberty is but a vapor.

>

>

>

> Sure we are all different, but so was the Soviet Union with its 200  

> distinct ethnic groups.

>

>

>

> Diversity is not the main attraction.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> Regards,

>

>

>

> Kearney

>

>

>

>

>

>

> ----- Original Message ----

> From: Martin Senger <MSenger at GECAC.org>

> To: The Adult English Language Learners Discussion List  

> <englishlanguage at nifl.gov>

> Sent: Friday, September 19, 2008 8:17:42 AM

> Subject: [EnglishLanguage 2809] Re: citizenship

>

> Pax Stephen!

>

> I am a civics teacher for adults here in the US . I always stress  

> that by learning about their new country, they are more apt to  

> become involved in that environment, which is the best language  

> classroom ever. Most of my students have limited access to an  

> English-language environment, since they speak their L1 at home  

> with family, and their social circles are often restricted to that  

> L1. I always tell my students that if the only time they speak  

> English is in my classroom, I will require them to buy me a nice  

> retirement gift, because they will be in my class for the next 40  

> years!

>

> I also teach that diversity has been, is, and (hopefully) always  

> will be the bond that unites us as a nation. So it is perfectly  

> acceptable to be completely different than everyone around you,  

> just like everyone else! Viva le difference! (I hope my English is  

> better than my French!)

>

> Ciao!

>

>

> Martin E. Senger

>

> Adult ESL Teacher

>

> GECAC / The R. Benjamin Wiley Learning Center

>

> Erie, Pa

>

> 814-490-8510

>

>

> -----Original Message-----

> From: englishlanguage-bounces at nifl.gov [mailto:englishlanguage- 

> bounces at nifl.gov] On Behalf Of Stephen Woulds

> Sent: Friday, September 19, 2008 12:50 AM

> To: englishlanguage at nifl.gov

> Subject: [EnglishLanguage 2808] citizenship

>

>

> Hi

>

> This website was created to help those teaching/learning English  

> develop an understanding of citizenship as it relates to the United  

> Kingdom . http://www.esoluk.co.uk <http://www.esoluk.co.uk/>  There  

> are however many people in the UK who are opposed to the teaching  

> of 'citizenship'. It is becoming a hot political issue,  

> particularly as language ability and cultural knowledge are being  

> used as gate-keeping processes for entry into the UK . I'm  

> wondering what other people's thoughts are on the teaching of  

> citizenship to migrants, asylum seekers, etc, particularly within  

> their own national contexts.

>

>

>

>

>

> ----------------------------------------------------

> National Institute for Literacy

> Adult English Language Learners mailing list

> EnglishLanguage at nifl.gov

> To unsubscribe or change your subscription settings, please go to  

> http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/englishlanguage

> Email delivered to janet_isserlis at brown.edu

>

>

>

> ----------------------------------------------------

> National Institute for Literacy

> Adult English Language Learners mailing list

> EnglishLanguage at nifl.gov

> To unsubscribe or change your subscription settings, please go to  

> http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/englishlanguage

> Email delivered to andreawilder at comcast.net


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://www.nifl.gov/pipermail/englishlanguage/attachments/20080923/7b19535a/attachment.html