Ted,

Over 100 years ago the Committee of Ten decided that algebra and  
geometry developed "thinking muscles or skills" and should be part of  
the HS curriculum.  Some  people still subscribe to that outmoded  
theory.  Now, Brain Science is in its infancy but we still know that  
there are many kinds of learners.  The question remains are the  
"answers" of 100 years ago the answers for all learners today.

Must we place barriers that prevent learners form reaching their  
potential.  What percentage of GEDs finish CC? Without the math  
roadblock how many might finish CC?  What percentage of CC students  
need math not arithmetic to succeed in their chosen careers?

One of my favorite New Yorker cartoons shows to 13 year-olds at their  
school lockers and one of them explains to the other, " The job I am  
going to have hasn't been invented yet."

Roger Berg
Senior Strategic/Community Planner
Literacy Program at the Plymouth Library
Plymouth, MA 02360
nqr at mac.com
508.746.3645




On Feb 5, 2009, at 9:52 AM, Ted Klein wrote:


> Forrest, et al,

>

> I am a good example of "beyond math challenged." I was the oldest  

> person in my high school graduating class, primarily because of  

> algebra and geometry. I started out in the university in zoology. I  

> had to quit, because of failure to balance freshman chemistry  

> equations and inability to take such required courses such as  

> biochemistry and genetics. People kept saying that it was an  

> "attitude thing," as I was already publishing in the field of  

> herpetology, while still in high school. I was able to change majors  

> to English/Spanish in the university and fortunately was permitted  

> to substitute Latin for required math. I got my degree finally and  

> after going into ESL didn't even think about graduate school because  

> of the math portion in the GRE. I have had a very good career in  

> ESL, have published articles and textbooks, done management work and  

> am functional in several languages. Years after all of this started  

> I was at a TexTESOL meeting in San Antonio and the subject was right  

> and left hemisphere predominance. I took a test and turned out to be  

> fourth from the end on the right side group of some 80 people. When  

> they did a results analysis, it turned out that I was a creative  

> person who saw things, including new languages, holistically before  

> details registered properly. There is probably an empty spot on my  

> left hemisphere area! This explained everything to my satisfaction.  

> Left hemisphere predominant persons have step-by-step minds and  

> become engineers, scientists, etc. Right hemisphere predominant  

> people are abstract artists, natural musicians, etc. and learn  

> everything differently. In a long career, I have fortunately never  

> had to use anything beyond elementary arithmetic. My wife keeps the  

> checkbook, as she is predominately on the left side, because even at  

> that level I mess up. The problem is that we are in a left- 

> hemisphere education system. One of the factors that should be  

> considered is hemispheric testing of all school children and adults  

> and adjustment of their curricula and goals. That could solve some  

> of the problems. Persons who are in the middle of the right/left  

> predominance usually do O.K. if they have motivation also. Persons  

> who are far right or far left will all have some areas of weakness.  

> By the way, I had some really competent math teachers and tutors,  

> who I inadvertently drove crazy.

>

> Ted

> www.tedklein-ESL.com

>

>

> ----- Original Message -----

> From: Forrest Chisman

> To: barbara.jacala at guamcc.edu ; 'The Assessment Discussion List'

> Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2009 8:35 PM

> Subject: [Assessment 1637] Re: Reply to Questions 1 and 2

>

> I agree with Tom in all of this. Like it or not, colleges require a  

> reasonable level of math including algebra for entering students.  

> Otherwise they go into developmental math. So we should just “get  

> over it” and figure out ways to teach this to GED and ESL students.  

> If we want to change college admissions requirements, that’s a  

> separate crusade. In fact many people think they’re too low –  

> including me.

>

>

>

> Forrest Chisman

>

>

>

> From: assessment-bounces at nifl.gov [mailto:assessment- 

> bounces at nifl.gov] On Behalf Of Barbara Jacala

> Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2009 7:46 PM

> To: 'The Assessment Discussion List'

> Subject: [Assessment 1635] Re: Reply to Questions 1 and 2

>

>

> Math is the favorite subject of my children. One child went to  

> University Laboratory High School in Champaign, Illinois where she  

> came across math author Donald Cohen. He teaches math to children  

> and has been successful in teaching them calculus at elementary  

> level. His website is http://www.mathman.biz/ Maybe we could use his  

> strategy in adult education?

>

> Barbara Jacala

>

> From: assessment-bounces at nifl.gov [mailto:assessment- 

> bounces at nifl.gov] On Behalf Of Melinda Hefner

> Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2009 8:16 AM

> To: The Assessment Discussion List

> Subject: [Assessment 1621] Re: Reply to Questions 1 and 2

>

>

> Tom, you articulated my own thoughts very well!  Thank you!

>

> GED level algebra is actually quite basic and is generally perceived  

> as a fundamental math needed by all students.  It has many simple,  

> real-life applications even though some may not think of the  

> calculations used as being algebraic, i.e. recipes, drug dosage  

> calculations, purchasing, painting and wallpapering, etc. Teaching/ 

> facilitating the connection between algebra and real life  

> applications often helps de-mystify algebra and decreases the angst  

> that some students have when they "hit the algebra wall".   

> Additionally and, in my opinion, as important, skills necessary for  

> mastering algebra are among necessary 21st century skills, i.e.

> problem solving

> accessing, processing, and synthesizing information

> critical thinking and reasoning skills,

> abstract thinking,

> self-directed learning, etc.

> Just a few thoughts to offer....

>

>

> Melinda

>

> Melinda M. Hefner

> Director, Literacy Support Services

>

> Basic Skills Department

> Caldwell Community College and Technical Institute

> 2855 Hickory Blvd.

> Hudson, North Carolina 28638

> Office: 828.726.2245

> FAX:    828.726.2266

>

> >>> On 2/3/2009 at 3:01 pm, in message <29CFEE83EDF92741BF0ED3F5D9BC7E87FE753E at exchange2.doe.mass.edu 

> >, "Mechem, Thompson" <tmechem at doe.mass.edu> wrote:

> And to support you, Marie, I come back to my pet obsession of the  

> moment, which is the ACCUPLACER: without sound algebra skills, GED  

> grads are doomed to the abyss of developmental math courses and/or  

> an often futile struggle with college-level math. Other states with  

> different college placement tests have the exact same problem. So  

> lament it or not, algebra is the world our students must be able to  

> navigate through to access post-secondary education and training.

>

> Tom Mechem

> GED State Chief Examiner

> Department of Elementary & Secondary Education

> Commonwealth of Massachusetts

> 781-338-6621

> "GED to Ph.D."

>

>

> -----Original Message-----

> From: assessment-bounces at nifl.gov [mailto:assessment- 

> bounces at nifl.gov]On

> Behalf Of Marie Cora

> Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2009 2:35 PM

> To: 'The Assessment Discussion List'

> Subject: [Assessment 1596] Re: Reply to Questions 1 and 2

>

>

> Hi Kathy, Roger, and everyone,

>

> While I also am math challenged, and I feel competent in my daily math

> skills, I guess I would argue that all this depends entirely on the

> context and the needs of the student.  There are an awful lot of  

> careers

> and jobs that depend on the individual having a good command of higher

> order math, and there are a lot of people interested in this type of

> math (some who do not even realize it).

>

> But perhaps this is what you are saying - that maybe if the curriculum

> were better constructed, like a ladder say, then the people who do  

> want

> to pursue math will, and in greater numbers.

>

> Is that what you're saying?

>

> Thanks,

>

> Marie Cora

> Assessment Discussion List Moderator

>

>

> -----Original Message-----

> From: assessment-bounces at nifl.gov [mailto:assessment-bounces at nifl.gov]

> On Behalf Of Ellithorpe, Kathy

> Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2009 10:53 AM

> To: The Assessment Discussion List

> Subject: [Assessment 1578] Re: Reply to Questions 1 and 2

>

>

>

> Bravo, Roger.  Just put me in the shootong line.  I have made it very

> well thank you without the knowledge of math beyond basic algebra.  I

> probably did have the knowledge at one time-but as the old saying

> goes..."use it or lose it"   In most daily lives higher order math is

> just not necessary.  Problem IS with the curriculm-not the learners...

>

>

> -----Original Message-----

> From: assessment-bounces at nifl.gov [mailto:assessment-bounces at nifl.gov]

> On Behalf Of nqr at mac.com

> Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2009 8:35 AM

> To: The Assessment Discussion List

> Cc: The Assessment Discussion List

> Subject: [Assessment 1577] Re: Reply to Questions 1 and 2

>

> Tom  is, as usual, correct.  My concern is that some students could  

> and

> should be able to gain a certificate or, perhaps,  even an Associate's

> without a knowledge of algebra.

>

> I have a Ph D and slogged through three grad course in statistics.

> However, if you put a gun to my head and ordered me to solve an  

> equation

> with two unknowns I would tell you to shoot me.

>

> I was a Tenured Full Professor at the University of Nebraska as well

> managed world-wide customer research for IBM without knowing how to

> solve that sort of equation.

>

> Perhaps, the problem is with the curriculum and not the learners.

>

> Roger Berg

> 11 Hall Street

> Plymouth, MA 02360

> 508 746 6345

> roger_berg at mac.com

>

>

> On Tuesday, February 03, 2009, at 09:56AM, "Mechem, Thompson"

> <tmechem at doe.mass.edu> wrote:

> >Stephanie, et al.---

> >

> >In our state we also find that the low academic skill level of GED

> diploma recipients is, if not the biggest barrier to post-secondary

> education, at least a very major one. A huge majority of GED students

> end up in college developmental courses from which they never emerge.

> The unindicted co-conspirator in all this is the ACCUPLACER, the

> placement test that all applicants to Massachusetts state colleges  

> must

> take. Our data shows that while GED grads do very well on the reading

> part of the ACCUPLACER and quite well on the Writing in terms of

> avoiding developmental courses, on the the Math they do very, very

> poorly. There is no correlation between GED math and ACCUPLACER/ 

> college

> Algebra: a person can get an 800 on the GED math test and still test

> into developmental math at a community college. I am working with GED

> math teachers around Massachusetts to develop a GED curriculum that  

> will

> allow students to pass the GED test with all due speed and also pass  

> the

> ACCUPLACER math t!

> est.

> >

> >Tom Mechem

> >GED State Chief Examiner

> >Department of Elementary & Secondary Education Commonwealth of

> >Massachusetts

> >781-338-6621

> >"GED to Ph.D."

> >

> >-----Original Message-----

> >From: assessment-bounces at nifl.gov

> >[mailto:assessment-bounces at nifl.gov]On Behalf Of Stephanie Moran

> >Sent: Monday, February 02, 2009 3:28 PM

> >To: 'The Assessment Discussion List'

> >Subject: [Assessment 1563] Reply to Questions 1 and 2

> >

> >

> >

> >1.        The low skill level of many students trying to transition

> from GED to college may be the biggest barrier. We are part of the SUN

> grant/College Connection grant here in Colorado, so we are in the  

> middle

> of  doing exactly this-working in an intensive 8-week program that is

> attempting to help our GED grads accelerate their skill levels in

> reading, writing, math, study skills, critical thinking-and learn  

> how to

> "do college" as well as explore career options. Our students are

> dedicated, but many nevertheless lack more sophisticated skills. One  

> of

> our grant goals is to help them successfully pass through their  

> current

> remedial course, and if they are at the 030 or 060 level, to perhaps

> skip over the next one into the higher 060/090 or into credit-bearing

> courses altogether.

> >

> >--Study skills of students-many GED students are episodic in their

> attendance and can still pull off a solid GED score, but college  

> demands

> consistent and focused show-up-and-suit-up skills that may be  

> unfamiliar

> if not downright foreign to GED grads.

> >

> >--Another barrier is that some teachers perceive their primary role  

> as

> helping students earn the GED and although such teachers often support

> post-GED studies, they don't want to push students or focus on

> higher-level skills. This creates a de facto tracking system, and it  

> may

> be that centers will need to formalize such tracking so that students

> who know they want to go on to post-GED studies can work with those

> teachers.

> >

> >2.  Resources:  Having GED teachers who also teach as adjuncts for

> community colleges is hugely helpful because we understand both  

> systems

> and what is required for a student to be successful in a college

> environment; we also can tutor and advocate in a way that teachers who

> teach at only one level may not be able or willing to do as  

> effectively.

> >

> >--THE SUN/ College Connection grant has given us time and funding to

> develop curriculum, to work in close collaboration with other

> teacher/team members, and to introduce this approach to the community

> colleges.

> >

> >

> >

> >Stephanie Moran

> >

> >Durango, CO

> >

> >

> >

> >From: assessment-bounces at nifl.gov [mailto:assessment- 

> bounces at nifl.gov]

> >On Behalf Of Marie Cora

> >Sent: Monday, February 02, 2009 7:52 AM

> >To: Assessment at nifl.gov

> >Subject: [Assessment 1557] Transitions Discussion begins today!

> >

> >

> >

> >Good morning, afternoon and evening to you all.

> >

> >

> >

> >Today begins our week-long discussion on Transitions in Adult

> Education.

> >

> >

> >

> >For full information on this discussion, go to:

> >

> >

> >

> >http://www.nifl.gov/lincs/discussions/assessment/09transitions.html

> >

> >

> >

> >I have some questions for subscribers:

> >

> >

> >

> >1.  What seem to pose the biggest obstacles for your program when

> trying to successfully transition adult students from one education

> level to another, or from education to the workforce?  What does your

> program try to do about this?

> >

> >

> >

> >2.  What resources have you found helpful when trying to successfully

> transition a student?  How have they been helpful?

> >

> >

> >

> >3.  Please comment on the Introduction and/or Recommended  

> Preparations

> for this Discussion, found at the announcement URL above.

> >

> >

> >

> >Please post your questions and share your experiences now.

> >

> >

> >

> >Thanks!!

> >

> >

> >

> >Marie Cora

> >

> >Assessment Discussion List Moderator

> >

> >

> >

> >

> -------------------------------

> National Institute for Literacy

> Assessment mailing list

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>

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> Email delivered to tmechem at doe.mass.edu

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>

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