Glenda Lynn,

Please don't be insulted. No insult was intended. But as an Hispanic
man, I can assure you that most of your adult male students most
likely do not share the love of children's books the way you do. Just
as you were sensitive to the "tone" of my comment, your students are
even MORE sensitive to the fact that their teacher is giving them
children's books to read. As one person said, it infantilizes the
adult student, even though that is surely not your intent.

I also want to add that in many foreign cultures, it is not polite and
is considered disrespectful to disagree with one's teacher. So perhaps
your adult male students are "telling" you that they like reading
children's books, but once out of class, when they speak with each
other, their enchantment is not so evident.

Just because someone doesn't read well, it does not mean that they are
ignorant or child-like. They want to (and should) be treated as the
grown men and women that they are. I can tell you that they are also
usually quite street smart, and do not like to feel as if they are
being manipulated and "spoken (or taught) down to."

And again, I mean no disrespect, but if "David Schwarzer said that if
the teacher likes to dance, everyone dances," maybe he was trying to
say that when the teacher likes to dance, he or she MAKES everyone
dance, whether they like to dance or not. [I don't mean to insult you
with that comment, either, Glenda Lynn, but if we really want to be
open-minded, his comment can really go either way.]

I must agree with what Steve Kaughman said. I too don't understand why
teachers are deciding what their adult students should read. If the
teacher loves reading and loves choosing what they like to read, why
can't the adult learner also choose what THEY want to read, so they
too can possibly gain a love of reading? Have the children's books
available. Have the adult books for emergent students available. Have
an assortment of as many books as possible. And let THE STUDENTS
decide what interests them. After all, a wholly engaged student, is a
successful student.

Again, I apologize for insulting you, Glenda Lynn, and I'm glad that
you are secure enough in your own self-value to let it be known. Some
of our students are not as secure in their self-value, and may not
speak up as you did.

Jose Perez



On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 9:53 AM, Glenda Lynn Rose <glyndalin at yahoo.com> wrote:

> I have to admit I"m a little insulted by tone of this response.  I find it

> ironic that open-mindedness is appreciated, but the idea of using children's

> books is not included in that open-minded attitude.

>

> I do selectively use children's books.  I use them because as an adult some

> of my favorite books are still children's books and I use them when I teach

> English speakers other subjects as well as language arts.  As far as my

> students being insulted, I have never had a student who complained.  A lot

> of it may be in the presentation.

>

> The use of children's books has to be done with an understanding of your

> goals and the goals of your students, of course.  Some books I present

> because they are part of the culture - "I do not like them Sam I am"  and

> "It's fun to have fun but you have to know how" are phrases from Dr. Seuss,

> used outside their original storybook context, for example.

> Alexander and the Terrible Horrible No Good Very Bad Day is one of my and my

> students' favorite books, because it reminds us that bad days happen and

> happen regardless of where you live ("even in Australia")  (and how your

> attitude is in the  morning really affects how you see the rest of the day.)

> Some bilingual books, like The Upside Down Boy and I Love Saturdays y

> Domingos I use because my students are mainly parents, and these books

> address issues that their children may be experiencing.

>

> David Schwarzer said that if the teacher likes to dance, everyone dances.

> Maybe that's part of the key.  I love children's books.  I continue to read

> them as an adult.  I have a large personal collection of books from which my

> students voluntarily (ie., ASK) to borrow.  If the teacher, however,

> dislikes children's books, then clearly he or she should not use them,

> because that dislike will be transmitted to the students and clearly will

> not be an effective teaching tool.

>

> In short, I respect your decision to not use children's books and your

> reasons, but I also ask that you consider the possiblity that the use of

> children's books is not as "insulting" or degrading as you might think,

> depending on how and why they are used.

>

>

>

> Grace and Peace!

> Glenda Lynn Rose, PhD

> 512-789-5131 (cell)

> glyndalin at yahoo.com

>

>

> --- On Tue, 12/2/08, Jose Perez <joseperez3338 at gmail.com> wrote:

>

> From: Jose Perez <joseperez3338 at gmail.com>

> Subject: [EnglishLanguage 3214] Re: I don't understand the current thinking

> behind teaching reading to adults!

> To: "The Adult English Language Learners Discussion List"

> <englishlanguage at nifl.gov>

> Date: Tuesday, December 2, 2008, 9:19 PM

>

> Ali,

>

> Thank goodness for young, innovative, open-minded, "thinking outside

> the box" individuals like you. We need more future educators like you,

> so I want to thank you for your very astute observations and comments.

>

> In my humble opinion, there is no place for children's books in an

> adult class--whether it's an ESL class or an ABE class. It is

> insulting, degrading and humiliating for adults, males especially, to

> be handed children's books. It is a mistake many educators make. Maybe

> it's because they don't realize the stigma and unfortunate humialition

> these adults go through just admitting that they can't read, or how

> hard it is to learn the (complicated) English language when your

> native language is, say, Spanish. So I applaud you for not stooping to

> giving your adult students children's books.

>

> I know I've said this before, but I am most likely one of their

> biggest fans. Have you tried the Junkyard Dan series by Nox Press?

> These are books written on a first-grade reading level, but are for

> adults and are not the typical condescending, dated, boring books that

> we usually give these students. They are crime dramas. I use these

> books with great success, and my students can't get enough of them. I

> think that as a young, innovative educator, who seems to have a full

> understanding on why our current ways are, on a whole, not effective

> and not working very well for our adult students, if you visit the Nox

> Press website, you will see what I am talking about. Your students

> will thank you. But don't take my word for it. Check 'em out yourself!

>

> Good luck in your future teaching carreer, and may you make many great

> changes in your lifetime.

>

> Jose Perez

>

> On Tue, Dec 2, 2008 at 2:56 PM, Ali Hesami <hesamiar at gmail.com> wrote:

>> That's a great point, and exactly what I'm talking about. If we as

> educators

>> keep extrapolating on teaching methods for children because there are not

>> many adult-specific methods, how can we ever hope to develop an

>> adult-specific method? I think we can agree that adults of varying ages do

>> not learn as children do, and have drastically different literacy needs.

>>

>> On Tue, Dec 2, 2008 at 1:45 PM, Bonnie Odiorne

> <bonniesophia at sbcglobal.net>

>> wrote:

>>>

>>> I don't know a lot about adult reading acquisition theories, but I

> do know

>>> that many researchers take what works for children and extrapolate,

> since

>>> little work has been done with adults. The most important issue would

> be

>>> content, as folks have mentioned, and how the brain works, added to

> the

>>> adult's experience (possible trauma from illiteracy) and passive

> oral

>>> vocabulary. I've been taught a combination of choosing key words

> to remember

>>> initial letters and word patterns to help with sound/letter

> correspondence;

>>> language experience stories that the learner would dictate and could

> then

>>> "read" relatively quickly, and a quick development of sight

> word vocabulary.

>>> Also workplace or other realia that the learner needs to function. In

>>> relation to using children's books or techniques (the Wilson

> method comes to

>>> mind) I'd do it only if reading to children was one of the

> adult's goals;

>>> otherwise learners can make their own picture books with doodles and

>>> accompanying text limited to their level and interest. I do have

> direct

>>> experience with taking a Methods and Materials ESL class whose

> professor's

>>> only knowledge of adult learners was of graduate assistants in her

>>> University, though she claimed adult learning as her specialty;

> otherwise

>>> her materials came right out of chldren's contexts and K-12

> methodology; she

>>> didn't appreciate my more "practical" methods and

> materials that didn't have

>>> communicative language games....

>>> Bonnie Odiorne, Post University Writing Center, Waterbury, CT

>>>

>>> --- On Tue, 12/2/08, Ali Hesami <hesamiar at gmail.com> wrote:

>>>

>>> From: Ali Hesami <hesamiar at gmail.com>

>>> Subject: [EnglishLanguage 3184] I don't understand the current

> thinking

>>> behind teaching reading to adults!

>>> To: englishlanguage at nifl.gov

>>> Date: Tuesday, December 2, 2008, 12:29 AM

>>>

>>> Hello all.

>>> My name is Ali Hesami, and I am currently a graduate student in the

> adult

>>> literacy program at Virginia Commonwealth University in Richmond,

> Virginia.

>>> I've been attending a class called "Teaching Reading to

> Adults" as part of

>>> my required curriculum, and I have been wondering about the current

> methods

>>> used to teach reading to adults. It seems to me that the teacher teach

>>> adults just as they would teach children, often even using research

> and

>>> writing on teaching reading to children as guidelines.

>>> While I understand the usefulness of phonics, phonetics, etc. by

>>> themselves, I firmly believe that an adult can better benefit from

> learning

>>> to read by simply reading in a classroom environment, guided by

> teachers,

>>> tutors, etc. An adult in his or her 40s or even 50s simply should not

> have

>>> to sit through long sessions of syllable by syllable instruction if

> all they

>>> desire id to be better able to communicate with others and better

> express

>>> their opinions about the world surrounding them.

>>> I speak from experience here. I began learning English as a 14 year

> old in

>>> an international school in Tanzania. I placed into the 9th grade to

> start;

>>> no one ever even approached phonics, phonemes, etc. I read and

> listened, all

>>> the while guided by teachers who helped me with the material at hand.

> I

>>> became conversational in about three months or so, while I worked on

> my

>>> writing, also with guidance from my teachers. Conversely, while in

> school in

>>> my native Tehran, Iran, I was taught English in a similar manner as

> here,

>>> and I spoke a grand total of three phrases when I left Iran for

> Tanzania:

>>> Hello, Fine thank you, and Beg your pardon? I'm not even joking

> here!

>>> I admit as a 14 year old I had an advantage over adults here, but I

> can't

>>> help but wonder if what worked for me would help adults much more than

>>> playing word games and reading children's books.

>>> Let's have them read material they can identify with in some way,

> and keep

>>> them reading, while slowly working on their writing skill alongside.

>>> Let me know any thoughts, ideas, criticisms, etc. It has been eating

> away

>>> at me for a few months now.

>>> Thanks in advance,

>>> Ali Hesami

>>> hesamiar at gmail.com

>>>

>>> ----------------------------------------------------

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>>> Email delivered to bonniesophia at sbcglobal.net

>>>

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>>> Email delivered to hesamiar at gmail.com

>>

>>

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>> Email delivered to joseperez3338 at gmail.com

>>

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