Transcripts of the Attorney General's Initiative on DNA Laboratory Backlogs (AGID-LAB) Working Group

Monday, October 21, 2002

WELCOMING, INTRODUCTIONS, AND OPENING REMARKS

MS. HART: Good afternoon. I think I've met just about everybody here, but we have some new faces. For those of you who don't know me, I'm Sarah Hart, the director of NIJ, and I would like to welcome you all here to the second meeting of AGID-LAB, the Attorney General's initiative on DNA laboratory backlogs.

I'm really delighted that you've all taken time out of your very, very busy schedules to come here. Every time I look at the group of people that we have here I'm really amazed by the wealth of knowledge and experience and wide variety of viewpoints that are represented in this room, and I do recognize given the kind of work that you do, what a tremendous inconvenience it can be to take some time, even a couple of days, out of your schedule to come to a meeting like this, and so I really very much appreciate the fact that you have all done that and devoted the time for what I think is a very important project, and I know that people in the room share that view.

By the way, last week I reread the transcript of our first meeting, which I have to tell you is kind of a phone book, and I think my staff was a little surprised when I said I wanted to take it home on the train and read it. I was again impressed going through there by how thoughtful the discussions were, how constructive I thought the discussions were, and what good ideas came out of them.

I will, though, just for the record want to make clear that when I said - the transcript reads that I believed in the decapitation of offenders. I think it was the incapacitation of the offenders is what I said. So just for the record I want to make it clear to everybody that's what I meant. I always find it difficult to read a transcript because you never like the way you sound in it, but I know for sure I did not say that.

I will tell you that even though we are on the second meeting and we still have work to do here, that doesn't mean that what you've done hasn't had a tremendous impact so far. The discussions that we had last time were very, very helpful to us in having further discussions within the Department on various DNA issues. I testified in May for the Senate Judiciary Committee chaired by Senator Biden, and I have to tell you it was extremely helpful to be able to talk about a number of the issues that you all had brought to my attention. It certainly was in forming discussion, and it is already in forming the Department's policies.

One of the things, for example, that we had talked about was the need to address local crime labs and make sure that their backlogs were addressed even though traditionally the Department usually does not support direct grants to local jurisdictions because it so waters down the amount of money that can be granted. In this particular situation because we're talking about such a limited pool of crime labs that are out there, we were able to take a position from the Department that federal dollars should be made available both to state labs and to local crime labs because in many ways that was the place where there was the greatest need.

So even though we are not in any way finished, the work that you have done so far is having an ongoing impact and it has been extremely helpful. As I'm sure you realize, there continues to be tremendous interest on the Hill on these issues. There are a number of pieces of legislation that are going on about this. I just had a meeting with Congressman Smith, who is the chair of the subcommittee on crime through the House Committee on the Judiciary. He's extremely interested in these questions. So I look forward to many good things to come in the future.

As you may recall, the last time when we talked, I asked you specifically to focus on two issues, which you all did, which was looking at if we could down the road say what we wanted this capacity of our country to be on DNA evidence, what would be kind of the vision of the future and how do you get there. Then at the same time the second question was pretty much, well, until you get there how do you get the best public safety benefit and public interest benefit out of what we have and how to go forward. So I thought there were some very, very helpful suggestions there.

We did reach consensus on a number of issues. People generally seemed to feel that we needed to improve the capacity of the labs. Automation of the labs was the way to go. We needed more analysts. We needed to have more training for analysts for law enforcement, for defense attorneys, for judges, for prosecutors. For having so many people in a room, I don't think oftentimes you find agreement on such a wide range of issues by so many people, but this was something it seemed last time everybody seemed to have a very strong interest in, and especially addressing the backlog problem.

There are some other issues that I think still need further discussion, talking about some future improvements with CODIS, making sure that we have the maximum benefit for everybody on the state and local level with that. I'm delighted that Joe DiZinno is here again today, and, Joe, thanks for taking the time.

I have to tell you, by the way, in the last year I have been especially pleased to be developing such a good working relationship with the FBI. Dwight Adams, who is now in a leadership position over there, has really reached out to NIJ and our staff, and I'm greatly appreciative of that and the kind of cooperative work that we're doing going forward. I think it's a very good sign, and I think ultimately it will help all of us in the long run combining all of our thoughts and best efforts here.

Shortly I'm going to be turning this over to Glenn to talk about some of the issues that we need to discuss, but I also wanted to mention today that we have two professionals from the Forensic Science Laboratory of the South African Police Service. Are you the gentlemen who are sitting up there?

MR. MORRIS: Both of us.

MS. HART: I didn't recognize you before, and I'm sorry I haven't had a chance to meet you. Lisa Forman, who I'm sure you have met, came in and suggested that we hear from you, that you've done some amazing work there, and perhaps it will help some of us think outside the box about how we approach the issues here in this country. So I'm really looking forward to this presentation today.

MR. MORRIS: Thank you.

MS. HART: We have members from the Forensic Resource Network here who are going to talk about some of the issues that they've got going and some suggestions that we should think about.

A couple of things I wanted to talk about. The Attorney General's directive to me was to convene this working group, which you all obviously are doing, so that I could make recommendations to him about how to go forward in the future. One of the things that I would like to try and keep in mind for this is that I would like to identify the areas that we think especially need work. For example, let's suppose you say we need more analysts. What I would like to do is identify the particular issues that we need to address and identify options for addressing them without wedding ourselves to one particular option. I think to me it's always better to maintain some flexibility, to identify a range of options because something that we think may work may not work with the Hill, for example, and we would need their support.

So I'm going to ask you if you can at this point to try and especially identify what are the particular issues that we need to address, and then how do we identify options for various ways to do it so that we maintain some flexibility. So this is a tall working order that I've got for you, and I do appreciate that you all are coming here and doing this.

What I would like to do before I turn this over is just ask that everybody go around the room and introduce yourselves again and where you're from so that we all know who is here. That certainly will be very helpful to me to have you introduce yourselves again. I'll start with the gentlemen from South Africa.

MR. MORRIS: Thank you. My name is Keith Morris. I'm the director of the police forensic laboratory system in South Africa.

MR. VAN NIEKERK: Good afternoon. My name is Johann van Niekerk, and I'm a forensic scientist attached to the biology unit of the forensic science lab of South Africa.

MS. HART: Thank you for coming all this way.

MR. VAN NIEKERK: Thank you very much for having us.

MS. WEST: Good afternoon. I'm Mary West. I'm the commander of the forensic services division of the Chicago Police Department.

MR. DILLINGHAM: I'm Steve Dillingham with the American Prosecutors Research Institute.

MR. FERRARA: Paul Ferrara, director of the Virginia Division of Forensic Science.

MR. SIGEL: Steve Sigel, chairman of ASCLD-LAB and director of the Western Laboratory of Virginia's Division of Forensic Science.

MR. COFFMAN: David Coffman, supervisor of Florida's statewide DNA database.

MR. BUTLER: John Butler from the National Institutes of Standards and Technology.

MR. KRESBACH: John Kresbach, City of Albuquerque Police Department, and I also supervise the statewide database program for New Mexico.

MS. CROUSE: I'm Cecilia Crouse. I'm from the Palm Beach County sheriff's office crime laboratory. I'm the supervisor of the serology DNA section.

MR. VIGGIANNI: My name is Nick Viggianni. I'm with the NIJ staff. I work in the investigative and forensic sciences division for Lisa Forman.

MS. JONES: Robin Jones. I'm with ISD also, NIJ.

MS. FORMAN: Lisa Forman, investigative and forensic sciences division, National Institute of Justice.

MR. SCHMITT: I'm Glenn Schmitt. I'm the deputy director of the National Institute of Justice.

MR. MORGAN: John Morgan, science advisor to the director.

MS. HERD: I'm Kim Herd. I'm with the U.S. Attorney's Office in Washington, D.C.

MR. CLINE: I'm Phil Cline. I'm the chief of the detectives for the Chicago Police Department.

MR. DiZINNO: Joe DiZinno, deputy assistant director of the FBI laboratory.

MR. TILSTONE: Bill Tilstone, executive director of the NFSTC.

MR. SELAVKA: Carl Selavka. I'm the director of the State Police crime laboratory in Massachusetts.

MS. NARVESON: Susan Narveson. I'm the president of the American Society of Crime Laboratory Directors and director of the Phoenix Police Department crime laboratory.

MS. GUIDO: Syndi Guido. I'm the criminal justice advisor to Pennsylvania's governor.

MR. CLARKE: I'm Woody Clarke. I'm a deputy district attorney in San Diego County.

MR. GIALAMAS: Dean Gialamas. I'm the assistant director of the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department crime lab.

MS. SAMPLES: Marie Samples, assistant director of the department of forensic biology in New York City.

MS. HART: We've got a number of people in the crowd. If people don't mind just letting us know who you are.

MS. KREEGER: Good afternoon. I'm Lisa Kreeger. I'm the DNA forensic evidence program manager at the American Prosecutor Research Institute.

MR. HOUCK: Max Houck. I'm the projects director for the forensic science initiative at West Virginia University.

MS. HOLUP: I'm Linda Holup. I'm with the Marshall University Forensic Science Center.

MS. BERNHARDT: Gena Bernhardt. I'm with the Department of Justice.

MR. HESS: David Hess, Congressional public affairs, OJP.

MS. MUZZATTI: Claire Muzzatti, intern at NFSTC.

MR. BALLANTYNE: Jack Ballantyne, associate director for research, National Center of Forensic Science.

MR. LOTHRIDGE: Kevin Lothridge, deputy executive director for the NFSTC.

MR. FENGER: Terry Fenger, director of the Marshall University forensic science program.

MR. STOLOROW: Mark Stolorow, director of Orchid Cellmark Laboratories.

MR. JONES: John Paul Jones, former NIJ employee, now business school student.

MS. TULLY: Lois Tully, program manager of NIJ.

MS. KASHTAN: I'm Pat Kashtan, NIJ ISD.

MR. NELSON: I'm Mark Nelson, special agent in charge of North Carolina State Bureau of Investigation.

MR. SCHELLBERG: Tim Schellberg, Smith Alling Lane.

MS. HURST: Lisa Hurst, Smith Alling Lane.

MR. TURNER: Chris Turner, NIJ investigative forensic sciences division.

MS. HART: Thank you all, and I especially wanted to thank Lisa Forman and her folks for setting this up. They always do a terrific job advising us on things on DNA, and I'm very, very lucky to have inherited such a fine staff at NIJ on this. It's certainly a delight, and I'm glad she has organized all of this.

In the meantime I'm going to turn it over to Glenn to move on to the next agenda item.