This reminds me of a question I've had on my mind for a while. Has anyone had any success at improving the accuracy (in terms of structure and/or pronunciation) of students who seem to be at that “fossilized” stage? (And if so, how?)

Lynne Weintraub

Amherst MA



From: owlhouse at wwt.net
To: englishlanguage at nifl.gov
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 11:23:21 -0600
Subject: [EnglishLanguage 3681] Re: Post critical period oral L2 learning	ofadults w/low L1 litearcy











I don’t know about this, 
Steve.  It just hasn’t been my 
experience with my students that the brain eventually sorts it all out and they 
start speaking grammatically.  For 
many years, I taught college prep to immigrant and refugee high schoolers, many 
of whom had been in this country and gone through the public school system for 
many years, some of them their entire lives, and still had absolutely no control 
over English verbs.  They not only 
couldn’t form them correctly (“I am go,”  
“He reading,” “He is reads,” “He is went”); they also used them 
incorrectly in context – they didn’t know which tense to use or how to form any 
of the tenses correctly.  Sometimes 
they’d throw in an “is” or a “was” or a “did,” or all three at once.  They didn’t like to stray from the 
present tenses much, just trying to make their meaning clear by choosing a 
correct time word, but that strategy often resulted in miscommunication.  While they can get away with many of 
their errors in spoken communication, those same errors haunt them on the 
written pages that they have to write for their college courses.  
 
They make these errors – 
consistently – even though they have had “massive input,” as you say, for years 
– at least eight hours a day in school listening to teachers and other students. 
 However, I don’t think they ever 
got any direct instruction in grammar because many of them were mainstreamed 
right away and never attended an ESL class. 
 
I think what happens is that they 
surmise a rule, incorrectly, and don’t pay attention to the input anymore after 
that.  We would speak of their 
English as being “fossilized” at that point and almost impossible to correct and 
change.  

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: 
  Steve 
  Kaufmann 
  To: The Adult English Language Learners 
  Discussion List 
  Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2009 8:46 
  PM
  Subject: [EnglishLanguage 3659] Re: Post 
  critical period oral L2 learning ofadults w/low L1 litearcy
  
I  believe that our brain will, with enough exposure to 
  content that is relevant and interesting, start to sort out some rules 
  relating to word order, and other aspects of the structure of the new 
  language, with or without explicit grammar explanations and drills. Some 
  degree of grammar review, corrections etc, are helpful but not necessary, and 
  not as important as the massive input. Most learners attending ESL language 
  class do not get enough input of English.

Some aspects of a new 
  language may never stick. In English, articles are difficult for people form 
  languages without articles. The spoken difference between "he" and "she"  
  is difficult for well educated Chinese people, even after ten or more years of 
  grammar study, and even though the concept is not difficult and universally 
  understood. It  just does not exist in Chinese, so it is hard to develop 
  the natural ability to say "she" and "he" when required.


>From my 

  reading and observation, the brain sorts these things out on its own schedule, 
  and slowly. Explanations and drills are relatively ineffective, but can help a 
  little. Only lots of input will enable the brain to gradually get better, as 
  long as there is a will, and the input continues. That has been my experience 
  in learning Russian over the last 2 years, and that has been the experience of 
  many others who are prepared to put in the time, listening and reading, 
  according to what they have told me.

Obviously the non-reader is at a 
  disadvantage. However, intensive listening on an iPod to content of interest 
  could go a long way. However, I admit I have no experience with non-literate 
  learners.

Steve Kaufmann
www.lingq.com


  On Tue, Jan 27, 2009 at 3:58 PM, Elaine Tarone <etarone at umn.edu> 
  wrote:

  
    It is possible that formal teaching imposes accuracy standards that are 
    very difficult to attain unless the learner is alphabetically literate. 
     I think this is particularly true of grammatical features that do not 
    dramatically change the semantics, like word order in questions and final 
    morphemes that are really redundant in context.   Maybe teachers can 
    find other ways to communicate those standards (like use of cuisinaire rods 
    to show word order shifts) to make the learner aware of the difference 
    between their production and the accurate target.
    

    

    
    On Jan 27, 2009, at 5:10 PM, Steve Kaufmann wrote:

    Is it possible that formal teaching imposes 
      accuracy standards on learners that are either not relevant to their own 
      language goals, or applied too soon in their language development? We all 
      know fluent speakers of English and other languages who make many 
      mistakes.

Steve Kaufmann
www.lingq.com


      On Tue, Jan 27, 2009 at 2:15 PM, Martha Bigelow 
      <mbigelow at umn.edu> wrote:

      Anne,

This 
        is fascinating.  Would you happen to have a publication or citation 
        you could share with the list yet?  I'm sure many would be very 
        interested to read more, even if it is a handout.  I'm often 
        overwhelmed by the English language fluency and pragmatic skills of the 
        teens I've worked with.  But sometimes the transcriptions show 
        surprises!  They are not as accurate as they 
      seem.

Martha


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