Robin,

Not everyone is as adventurous as your Togolese lady. In my view it is
pointless to tell people to "just go out and use English".

I also think we should be realistic about the purposes of a classroom. One
of the main goals of a classroom should be that of encouraging the learners
to take charge of their learning, making them realize that it is a long road
and that it depends on them.

I believe in an emphasis on passive learning, massive input, listening and,
where possible reading, without any concern for grammar, form or production
of the language until the learner suddenly wants to use it. Flash Cards
including audio flash cards to review words and phrases that relate to the
content they are using. And content that is of interest to the learner.

Do all of that and a small amount of speaking can go a long way. Speaking is
more stressful and people need not be thrust into stressful situations
unless the want to. Then when they want to speak, let them speak, but not
just to their classmates, but to native speakers in the society.

I do not know how this works with learners who cannot read. However, given
that bilingualism is the norm in many societies with low or no literacy, I
cannot imagine that literacy is a condition of learning another language,
unless we insist on certain levels of accuracy that are not really important
to communication.

Steve Kaufmann
www.lingq.com

On Tue, Jan 27, 2009 at 3:33 PM, <robinschwarz1 at aol.com> wrote:


>

>  Steve-- this issue of willingness to try is a tender one where I work!

> We are always lamenting students who have spent years in this country and

> can barely speak a word of English.  At least two or three have admitted

> that they live entirely within their own language communities and do not

> venture out.  In contrast, a couple of weeks ago I interviewed a young woman

> from Togo who had been in the US barely a year and spoke quite good

> conversational English. I asked if she had studied English in Togo-- she had

> not and she became very animated in telling me she worked HARD  at speaking

> and trying to use English since she came here.  She said " Even if I know I

> speak funny, I tell people I want to talk in English.  Even at my church

> people want to talk in our language, but I tell them they MUST speak to me

> in English."    I wanted to give her a medal on the spot and have her come

> and speak to the other students on what works in language acquisition.   We

> are constantly faced with what I have determined are deeply culturally

> seated ideas about teaching and learning with the result that many students

> are very passive and take no active role in language learning.  They seem to

> think that by coming to class and sitting in the chair they will learn

> English by osmosis!!  Personally, I take a strong stand with my own students

> and tell them all the time that they need to learn to be more active in

> language learning and then I help them in whatever way I can figure

> out--like helping them be able to do homework by making sure it is crystal

> clear and then following up on it when they bring it back, or having them

> commit to using an English word or phrase or question with a specific person

> over the weekend and the reporting on it when they come to class.

>

> These little steps seem to help, but there is such a clear difference

> between those who, like the Togolese lady, are aggressive about language

> learning, and those who think it will eventually arrive in their heads.

> Has any of you read Earl Stevick's "Success with Foreign Languages" ?  This

> is a wonderful qualitative look at seven adults learning language in

> different ways--all achieved their goal and there is much to learn from how

> they did it!

>

> Robin Lovrien Schwarz

>

>  -----Original Message-----

> From: Steve Kaufmann <steve at thelinguist.com>

> To: The Adult English Language Learners Discussion List <

> englishlanguage at nifl.gov>

> Sent: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 3:48 pm

> Subject: [EnglishLanguage 3636] Re: Working withlearners with limited

> literacy - posted for Martha Bigelow

>

>  In my experience learners with formal schooling experience do better in a

> formal classroom, and are better at answering the kind of questions they get

> in class.. Literate learners can learn better, and can acq uire much larger

> vocabularies, more easily. When it comes to practical communication skills I

> have not observed any advantage for the highly educated. As I said, foreign

> professional athletes do better than college professors. What matters most

> is the interest level of the learner and the willingness to overcome any

> shyness or inhibitions, and spend time with another culture.

>

> Steve Kaufmann

> www.lingq.com

>

> On Tue, Jan 27, 2009 at 9:25 AM, Katherine Wood <kwood at gplc.org> wrote:

>

>> Hello,

>>

>> Like Sarah and Meghan, I have found that formal education makes a big

>> difference in terms of learning English as an adult or as an adolescent.

>> Over about eight years of teaching ESL to people of all ages, mainly

>> adults, I have also noticed that those who have a school background

>> usually have a distinct advantage.  Part of it is because a solid

>> educational background in your first language assists education in your

>> second language, which is why bilingual education and native language

>> literacy programs can make such a big difference, when it's possible to

>> develop them.  I believe part of it is also, as Sarah put it, because

>> students with more formal education know HOW to learn.  They have

>> experience20with being a student and they use that.  I believe that having

>> a school background also increases their confidence and self-esteem when

>> they start learning English.

>>

>> Self-esteem and confidence, I have found, also play a role in language

>> learning, although how much this matters probably varies according to the

>> student.  People with little school experience are not just unfamiliar

>> with how to be students; they are also frequently intimidated by the very

>> concept of school.  It's a completely foreign space and culture to them

>> and it operates by rules and standards they don't understand.  Where I

>> teach, I am able to be much less formal than those who work with

>> preliterate and nonliterate students in public schools, but even in a much

>> more relaxed setting, these students struggle with learning how things

>> work in a classroom setting, and it can be scary and frustrating.

>>

>> I teach refugee adults, many of them preliterate or nonliterate, and for

>> them to even step into my classroom requires a lot of courage.  It can

>> take months of invitations and encouragement to even get them to come.  At

>> least initially, they tend to believe they are not capable.  They need to

>> be able to achieve a lot small successes, with assistance, just to learn

>> that if they work hard at something in the classroom, they are capable of

>> getting it right... just as they are in other areas of their lives whe re

>> they have all kinds of real-world skills and experience.  Success comes in

>> little steps... learning to write their own names, or learning the English

>> words for colors.  You start with that and build as you can.

>>

>> Preliterate and nonliterate adult and adolescent students need a lot of

>> encouragement, reassurance, and, as Steve has said, interesting and

>> engaging content to keep them coming back.  They need a lot of assistance

>> and support to help them build appropriate student habits that will help

>> them learn, and they seem to need just as much assistance and support to

>> learn to believe that coming to school can actually help them.  They do

>> not lack motivation; they do, however, often need a lot more support than

>> other students to sustain that motivation.  This is where good

>> relationships with the teacher, volunteers, and other students often makes

>> a world of difference.  Amazing things can happen when preliterate and

>> nonliterate older students find a supportive community, and they realize

>> that they have a place in it and are valued.

>>

>> However, there are constraints in the process that are extremely

>> frustrating.  Preliterate and nonliterate adults do not have the advantage

>> of time or of silence - as Karen said, they really need to know all of

>> this stuff right now.  Getting around in the English-speaking world, being

>> able to say survival phrases and fill out forms and re ad signs and ask

>> for

>> things, etc., is not a temporary band-aid solution.  It's vital, important

>> knowledge that can make a huge difference in their lives - food stamps,

>> school services, and other things that I see my students struggle with all

>> the time as they attempt to work, take care of a household, and raise

>> children.  Creativity is crucial; so is repetition and visual assistance.

>> And I think most teachers would agree that the same approach and methods

>> aren't going to work equally well with all students.  Getting to know your

>> students and figuring out how they think and respond, and what works for

>> them, is very very hard to do with students who aren't literate and can't

>> say much of anything to you.  But it isn't impossible, and it's the best

>> way I've found of teaching preliterate and nonliterate beginners.

>>

>> Katie Wood, MATESOL

>> Greater Pittsburgh Literacy Council

>>

>>

>>

>> > I teach ESL classes to Hispanic adults, and my experience has been

>> similar

>> > to that of Meghan Kasun--my educated students (high school diploma or

>> > higher, mostly from the cities) learn dramatically faster than the

>> > uneducated students (some of whom left school after first grade).  Part

>> of

>> > this is certainly motivation, but there are other factors as well:

>> >

>> > The educated students simply know HOW to learn.  Given any learning

>> task,

>> > no matter20what the subject or teaching method, they learn faster and

>> > better than the others.  Some of this ability comes from their

>> experience

>> > as students in their own countries, and it seems likely that the people

>> > who chose to pursue higher education were the ones who were studious to

>> > begin with.

>> >

>> > The educated students are literate in their own language, which makes

>> > everything easier.

>> >

>> > The educated students tend to spend more time among native English

>> > speakers, so they have more opportunity to practice their English.  The

>> > uneducated students generally have factory jobs working among other

>> > Spanish speakers.  They say they can't practice at work because no one

>> > else there speaks English.

>> >

>> > I'm not sure self-esteem is a huge factor, but it does seem to have some

>> > influence.  The uneducated students are inclined to say, "Oh, I can

>> never

>> > learn!  I left school in second grade, I'm too old to learn now," and

>> > they stop trying when something seems too hard.  The educated students

>> > keep going.

>> >

>> > --- On Mon, 1/26/09, Steve Kaufmann <steve at thelinguist.com> wrote:

>> >

>> > From: Steve Kaufmann <steve at thelinguist.com>

>>  > Subject: [EnglishLangu age 3570] Re: Working withlearners with limited

>> > literacy - posted for Martha Bigelow

>>  > To: "The Adult English Language Learners Discussion List"

>>  > <englishlanguage at nifl.gov>

>> > Date: Monday, January 26, 2009, 3:19 PM

>> >

>> >

>> > It has not been my experience that the length of formal education is an

>> > important indicator of language learning success. Foreign professional

>> > athletes in North America generally learn to communicate in English

>> better

>> > than college professors of the same origin. The college educated person

>> > may understand abstract grammar explanations, but that does not

>> > necessarily translate into a better ability to communicate. I also doubt

>> > if self-esteem has much to do with it.

>> >

>> > I have met many people of limited education in foreign countries who

>> have

>> > learned English and other languages in order to interact with tourists.

>> In

>> > my experience, it is the level of interest in the language, that matters

>> > the most. That is why providing content of interest to listen to and

>> read,

>> > rather than grammar drills, tends to produce results.

>> >

>>  > Steve Kaufmann

>> > www.lingq.com

>> >

>> >

>>  > On Mon, Jan 26, 200 9 at 9:44 AM, Kasun, Meghan <

>> meghank at forbesroad.com>

>> > wrote:

>> >

>> >

>> >

>> >

>> > "What are some main differences you've noticed among your students with

>> > limited formal schooling?  How do you explain these differences and what

>> > do you do to accommodate the differences you've noted?"

>> >

>> > I've taught English as a Second Language for about two and a half

>> years.

>> > For the first two years, I was teaching at a young women's vocational

>> > school in a small village in Indonesia. I taught two different levels of

>> > English classes, which were beginner and intermediate.  The difference

>> was

>> > evident between those who had access to quality formal education and

>> those

>> > who didn't.  Those who finished high school were able to quickly grasp

>> the

>> > new concepts that I was presenting. They already had somewhat of a

>>  > background in English.  They were able to recite the ABC's, numbers,

>> and

>>  > introductory phrases.  They were more willing to engage in English

>> > conversation with me and had a greater interest in learning English.

>> > These students tended to come from the city, where the schools were of

>> > better quality.

>> > The other group of students were from an isolated village in the

>> mountains

>> > and most had not graduated from high=2 0school.  Although these ladies

>> had

>> > English instruction at some point in their lives, they had to start all

>> > over at square one again.  We had to study intensively the most basic

>> > phrases that the other group knew like the back of their hand.  After

>> > working on a concept for over a week, I would have to continue to drill

>> > them just so they could remember it.  I noticed that there were often

>> > mistakes in the spelling and grammar of their own language, which made

>> it

>> > much more difficult to learn English.

>> > However, I truly believe that it was not only the lack of formal

>> education

>> > that hindered their progress, but it was also the lack of self esteem in

>> > regards to education.  Somewhere along the way, something happened that

>> > put their education to a halt.  From that point on, education became a

>> > privilege that they could no longer enjoy.  Some of them felt that they

>> > were stupid or unable to learn.  There was also a stereotype associated

>> > with those who weren't able to finish high school.  Too often, it was

>> the

>> > poor who weren't able to finish high school because you had to pay.

>> > Elementary school and junior high school were free, so the dropout rate

>> > increased dramatically in high school.  Thus, these students really

>> > struggled learning English due to their lack of formal education=2 0and

>> the

>> > stereotypes that went with it.

>> > I came back to the United States in August.  Since then, I have been

>> > teaching an ESL class of eight beginner level students.  I have noticed

>> > similar trends in my class here.   There were two students who started

>> at

>> > the same time and around the same level.  They could barely speak

>> > anything.  One has a Masters degree in agricultural engineering, and the

>> > other graduated high school.  Although they both have a high school

>> > diploma, I can see a great difference in the way that the students

>> learn.

>> > For the one with the Masters, I am able to give her exercises in

>> grammar,

>> > sentence structure, and vocabulary.  She completes them with a great

>> > amount of success.  However, I noticed that the one who graduated high

>> > school needs a lot more reinforcement.  Working on exercises using the

>> > "formulas" to create an English sentence doesn't work for her.  She

>> needs

>>  > a little less formal approach to learning with a focus on speaking.

>> > Although this could be merely

>> >  a difference in learning styles, I found that this was an interesting

>> > trend.  It would make sense that the Masters degree student would

>> > gravitate to formal grammar exercises based on her experiences in

>> > university.  Whereas, it is reasonable t o assume that the student who

>> > graduated high school would feel better about working under less formal

>> > circumstances.

>> >>From my experiences, I agree that there is a great difference in the way

>> >> that students learn based on their previous educational opportunities.

>> >

>> >

>> > From: englishlanguage-bounces at nifl.gov

>> > [mailto:englishlanguage-bounces at nifl.gov] On Behalf Of Miriam Burt

>>  > Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 11:17 AM

>> >

>> > To: The Adult English Language Learners Discussion List

>>   > Subject: [EnglishLanguage 3562] Working withlearners with limited

>> literacy

>> > - posted for Martha Bigelow

>> >

>> >

>> > I'm posting the following on behalf of Martha Bigelow, guest facilitator

>> > for this week's discussion on working with adult English language

>> learners

>> > with limited literacy.

>> >

>> > Best, Miriam

>> > Miriam Burt, moderator

>> > Adult English Language Learners discussionlist

>> > mburt at cal.org

>> > *****************************************

>> >

>> > Hello, everyone, and welcome to the discussion on teaching English to

>> > adults with limited formal school and low levels of print literacy.

>> >

>> > I'm passionate about learning how to teach Engli sh to adolescents and

>> > adults with limited formal schooling and low levels of print literacy.

>> > I've been deeply involved in the Somali community in Minnesota and have

>> > done research on issues related literacy and language learning as well

>> as

>> > research on the social dimensions of the education of newcomers with

>> > limited formal schooling.  I'm looking forward to a lively discussion

>> and

>> > sharing of ideas!

>> > Choose any question below to begin the discussion, or just pose your own

>> > comment or question!

>> >

>> >

>> >   What are some main differences you've noticed among your students with

>> > limited formal schooling?  How do you explain these differences and what

>> > do you do to accommodate the differences you've noted?

>> > What are some of the policies or programs at school or in your state

>> that

>> > need to be changed to better educate adolescent and adult learners with

>> > limited formal schooling?  I welcome any stories about

>> > how  policies/programs have been be changed to benefit students with

>> > limited formal schooling.

>> >

>> >

>> >  What do teachers need to know and be able to do in order to be

>> effective

>> > in teaching adolescents or adults with limited formal schooling?  What

>> do

>> > you wish you had learned as a pre-service teacher?

>> >

>> >

>>  > What resources can you=2 0share that have been helpful in teaching

>> basic

>> > literacy skills to adolescents or adult?

>> >

>> >

>> >   What ways have you connected your classroom activities to the needs

>> your

>> > students have outside the classroom?  Do you have any special ways for

>> > finding out what your students' goals are or why they wish to become

>> > literate in English?

>> >

>> >

>> >   What other issues you would like to discuss related to this topic?.

>> >

>> >

>> >  Looking forward to hearing from you,

>> > Best,

>> >

>> > Martha Bigelow

>> > Associate Professor, University of Minnesota

>> > mbigelow at umn.edu

>> >

>> >

>> >

>> > From: englishlanguage-bounces at nifl.gov

>> > [mailto:englishlanguage-bounces at nifl.gov] On Behalf Of Miriam Burt

>> > Sent: Friday, January 23, 2009 10:55 AM

>>  > To: The Adult English Language Learners Discussion List

>>  > Subject: [EnglishLanguage 3557] Discussion next week on working

>>  > withlearners with limited literacy

>> > Hello, everyone.

>> >

>> > I'm happy to announce that next week, January26-30, this electronic

>> > discussion list for those who work with adult English language l earners

>> > will have a focused discussion on the topic of

>> >

>> > working with adult English language learners who have limited literacy

>> and

>> > preferences for learning through the oral mode. This topic was selected

>> > because of suggestions made by list participants this past fall.

>> >

>> > The guest facilitator is Martha Bigelow.  Dr Bigelow teaches in the

>> Second

>> > Languages and Cultures Program in the Department of Curriculum and

>>  > Instruction at the University of Minnesota. She has studied how English

>> > language learners (ages 16-28) with low print literacy make use of oral

>> > feedback, and has examined the strengths and challenges that older

>> > students with limited formal schooling and low literacy bring to oral

>> > language development in English. She has also studied the Somali and

>> > English literacy skills of young Somali women (ages 17-21) who are

>> > newcomers to the United States and have had limited formal schooling.

>> >

>> > In preparation:

>> > If you would like to do a little pre-reading before the discussion, you

>> > can read a brief article on Dr. Bigelow's work with Somali women; it's

>> on

>> > a Web page of the University of Minnesota at

>> >

>> >  http://cehd.umn.edu/Pubs/Research/Bigelow/default.html.

>> > &nb sp;

>> >

>> > You can also read a brief synthesis of recent research and promising

>> > practices for working with adult English language learners; it's on from

>> > the CAELA Network at

>> >

>> >  http://www.cal.org/caelanetwork/pd_resources/literacy.html

>> >

>> >

>> >

>> > For more information, including a bio of Dr. Bigelow, see the full

>> > announcement at

>> > http://www.nifl.gov/lincs/discussions/englishlanguage//09programs.html

>> >

>> >

>> >

>> > To sign up

>> >

>> > If you have colleagues who may be interested in joining the list for

>> this

>> > discussion, please forward this to them and invite them to join!

>> Here's

>> > the link to join the discussion list:

>>  >  http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/englishlanguage

>> >

>> >

>>  > Thanks, and I look forward to hearing from you during this discussions

>> –

>> > and throughout 2009, of course!

>> >

>> > Miriam

>> > ***********

>> > Miriam Burt,

>> > Facilitator, electronic discussion list for those working with adult

>> > English language learners

>> > mburt at cal.org

>> >

>> > ----------------------------------------------------

>>  > National Institute for Literacy

>> > Adult English Language Learners mailing list

>> > EnglishLanguage at nifl.gov

>> > To unsubscribe or change your subscription settings, please go to

>> > http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/englishlanguage

>>  > Email delivered to steve at thelinguist.com

>> >

>> > ----------------------------------------------------

>> > National Institute for Literacy

>> > Adult English Language Learners mailing list

>> > EnglishLanguage at nifl.gov

>> > To unsubscribe or change your subscription settings, please go to

>> > http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/englishlanguage

>>  > Email delivered to sarah.houston at yahoo.com

>> >

>> >

>> >       ----------------------------------------------------

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>> > Adult English Language Learners mailing list

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>> > To unsubscribe or change your subscription settings, please go to

>> > http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/englishlanguage

>>  > Email delivered to kwood at gplc.org

>>

>>

>> Katie Wood, MA TESOL

>> Teacher and Project Manager

>> Greater Pittsburgh Literacy Council

>> Greentree Families for Learning Center

>> 1836 Brett Street, Apartment 1

>> Pittsburgh, PA 15205

>> 412-921-8114

>>

>> Be sure to visit GPLC's new and improved website at www.gplc.org.  It

>> contains news and events, lesson plans for instructors and volunteers to

>> use, video of GPLC students, and many other features.  It's a great way

>> for your friends to learn about GPLC, so spread the word!

>>

>> Don't miss GPLC's 2nd Annual Trivia Bowl on March 29, 2009!  Come test

>> your trivia knowledge, cheer on your favorite business or school, bid on a

>> special raffle prize, or dine on a family style meal.  Contact Anita at

>> (412) 661-7323 x119 or at  <mailto:acohen at gplc.org> acohen at gplc.org for

>> more details.  Hope to see you there!

>> ----------------------------------------------------

>> National Institute for Literacy

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>> To unsubscribe or change your subscription settings, please go to http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/englishl

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>>  Email delivered to steve at thelinguist.com

>>

>

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