Thank you, Dr. Tarone, for both the word of caution and the excellent
reference.

 

Marcos 

 

 

 

 

Marcos Valle, Ph.D.

ABE ESL, International Division

Edmonds Community College

20,000 68th Ave. W

Lynnwood, WA 98036

(425) 640-1215

 

From: englishlanguage-bounces at nifl.gov
[mailto:englishlanguage-bounces at nifl.gov] On Behalf Of Elaine Tarone
Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 8:15 AM
To: The Adult English Language Learners Discussion List
Subject: [EnglishLanguage 3676] Re: Post critical period oral L2
learning ofadults w/low L1 litearcy

 

 

I'm just urging caution:  There is undoubtedly lots of research on how
the brain learns, but almost all of it, (except for studies like Reis
and Castro-Caldas, Read et al, etc) is research on the brains of
literate people.  

 

There are brain imaging studies showing that literate and illiterate
brain images are different during oral pseudoword repetition tasks,
where individuals can't process words semantically but have to process
them in terms of linguistic form.      (One such is Castro-Caldas et al
(1998) Brain 121, 1053-1063.)  

 

These results are consistent with what teachers tell us they see in the
classroom with regard to the difficulties typically experienced by
adults who aren't alphabetically literate in 'focus on form' type
activities.  There are cognitive reasons why literacy affects certain
kinds of oral language processing.

 

 

 

On Jan 28, 2009, at 9:23 AM, Steve Kaufmann wrote:





I am not talking about generalizations about how the brain learns. I ma
referring to the work of Manfred Spitzer who describes where in the
brain this leaning takes place and how. 

Reading is learned in a different area of the brain from the spoken
language, by the way. In any case there is a lot of research on how the
brain learns, and that research should be applied to teaching. We should
recognize that learning takes place in the brain, not in the classroom,
as Spitzer says.  Read Spitzer's book on learning and the brain when it
comes out in English.

Steve Kaufmann
www.lingq.com

On Wed, Jan 28, 2009 at 5:27 AM, Elaine Tarone <etarone at umn.edu> wrote:

There is research demonstrating significant differences in cognitive
processing between matched groups of literate and illiterate adults.  I
can send copies of these studies to anyone who is interested. 

 

These studies suggest that we need to be very cautious in making
generalizations about the way illiterate adults' brains process and
acquire second languages.  

 

In the meantime, it is very important to do what we are doing in this
discussion -- share information on what works in classrooms, and what
doesn't.  

 

 

On Jan 27, 2009, at 8:46 PM, Steve Kaufmann wrote:





I  believe that our brain will, with enough exposure to content that is
relevant and interesting, start to sort out some rules relating to word
order, and other aspects of the structure of the new language, with or
without explicit grammar explanations and drills. Some degree of grammar
review, corrections etc, are helpful but not necessary, and not as
important as the massive input. Most learners attending ESL language
class do not get enough input of English.

Some aspects of a new language may never stick. In English, articles are
difficult for people form languages without articles. The spoken
difference between "he" and "she"  is difficult for well educated
Chinese people, even after ten or more years of grammar study, and even
though the concept is not difficult and universally understood. It  just
does not exist in Chinese, so it is hard to develop the natural ability
to say "she" and "he" when required.


>From my reading and observation, the brain sorts these things out on its

own schedule, and slowly. Explanations and drills are relatively
ineffective, but can help a little. Only lots of input will enable the
brain to gradually get better, as long as there is a will, and the input
continues. That has been my experience in learning Russian over the last
2 years, and that has been the experience of many others who are
prepared to put in the time, listening and reading, according to what
they have told me.

Obviously the non-reader is at a disadvantage. However, intensive
listening on an iPod to content of interest could go a long way.
However, I admit I have no experience with non-literate learners.

Steve Kaufmann
www.lingq.com

On Tue, Jan 27, 2009 at 3:58 PM, Elaine Tarone <etarone at umn.edu> wrote:

It is possible that formal teaching imposes accuracy standards that are
very difficult to attain unless the learner is alphabetically literate.
I think this is particularly true of grammatical features that do not
dramatically change the semantics, like word order in questions and
final morphemes that are really redundant in context.   Maybe teachers
can find other ways to communicate those standards (like use of
cuisinaire rods to show word order shifts) to make the learner aware of
the difference between their production and the accurate target.

 

 

On Jan 27, 2009, at 5:10 PM, Steve Kaufmann wrote:





Is it possible that formal teaching imposes accuracy standards on
learners that are either not relevant to their own language goals, or
applied too soon in their language development? We all know fluent
speakers of English and other languages who make many mistakes.

Steve Kaufmann
www.lingq.com

On Tue, Jan 27, 2009 at 2:15 PM, Martha Bigelow <mbigelow at umn.edu>
wrote:

Anne,

This is fascinating.  Would you happen to have a publication or citation
you could share with the list yet?  I'm sure many would be very
interested to read more, even if it is a handout.  I'm often overwhelmed
by the English language fluency and pragmatic skills of the teens I've
worked with.  But sometimes the transcriptions show surprises!  They are
not as accurate as they seem.

Martha

 


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Email delivered to steve at thelinguist.com

 

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EnglishLanguage at nifl.gov

To unsubscribe or change your subscription settings, please go to
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Email delivered to etarone at umn.edu

 


----------------------------------------------------
National Institute for Literacy
Adult English Language Learners mailing list
EnglishLanguage at nifl.gov
To unsubscribe or change your subscription settings, please go to
http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/englishlanguage
Email delivered to steve at thelinguist.com

 

----------------------------------------------------

National Institute for Literacy

Adult English Language Learners mailing list

EnglishLanguage at nifl.gov

To unsubscribe or change your subscription settings, please go to
http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/englishlanguage

Email delivered to etarone at umn.edu

 

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