There is research demonstrating significant differences in cognitive  
processing between matched groups of literate and illiterate adults.   
I can send copies of these studies to anyone who is interested.

These studies suggest that we need to be very cautious in making  
generalizations about the way illiterate adults' brains process and  
acquire second languages.

In the meantime, it is very important to do what we are doing in this  
discussion -- share information on what works in classrooms, and what  
doesn't.


On Jan 27, 2009, at 8:46 PM, Steve Kaufmann wrote:


> I  believe that our brain will, with enough exposure to content  

> that is relevant and interesting, start to sort out some rules  

> relating to word order, and other aspects of the structure of the  

> new language, with or without explicit grammar explanations and  

> drills. Some degree of grammar review, corrections etc, are helpful  

> but not necessary, and not as important as the massive input. Most  

> learners attending ESL language class do not get enough input of  

> English.

>

> Some aspects of a new language may never stick. In English,  

> articles are difficult for people form languages without articles.  

> The spoken difference between "he" and "she"  is difficult for well  

> educated Chinese people, even after ten or more years of grammar  

> study, and even though the concept is not difficult and universally  

> understood. It  just does not exist in Chinese, so it is hard to  

> develop the natural ability to say "she" and "he" when required.

>

> From my reading and observation, the brain sorts these things out  

> on its own schedule, and slowly. Explanations and drills are  

> relatively ineffective, but can help a little. Only lots of input  

> will enable the brain to gradually get better, as long as there is  

> a will, and the input continues. That has been my experience in  

> learning Russian over the last 2 years, and that has been the  

> experience of many others who are prepared to put in the time,  

> listening and reading, according to what they have told me.

>

> Obviously the non-reader is at a disadvantage. However, intensive  

> listening on an iPod to content of interest could go a long way.  

> However, I admit I have no experience with non-literate learners.

>

> Steve Kaufmann

> www.lingq.com

>

> On Tue, Jan 27, 2009 at 3:58 PM, Elaine Tarone <etarone at umn.edu>  

> wrote:

> It is possible that formal teaching imposes accuracy standards that  

> are very difficult to attain unless the learner is alphabetically  

> literate.  I think this is particularly true of grammatical  

> features that do not dramatically change the semantics, like word  

> order in questions and final morphemes that are really redundant in  

> context.   Maybe teachers can find other ways to communicate those  

> standards (like use of cuisinaire rods to show word order shifts)  

> to make the learner aware of the difference between their  

> production and the accurate target.

>

>

> On Jan 27, 2009, at 5:10 PM, Steve Kaufmann wrote:

>

>> Is it possible that formal teaching imposes accuracy standards on  

>> learners that are either not relevant to their own language goals,  

>> or applied too soon in their language development? We all know  

>> fluent speakers of English and other languages who make many  

>> mistakes.

>>

>> Steve Kaufmann

>> www.lingq.com

>>

>> On Tue, Jan 27, 2009 at 2:15 PM, Martha Bigelow <mbigelow at umn.edu>  

>> wrote:

>> Anne,

>>

>> This is fascinating.  Would you happen to have a publication or  

>> citation you could share with the list yet?  I'm sure many would  

>> be very interested to read more, even if it is a handout.  I'm  

>> often overwhelmed by the English language fluency and pragmatic  

>> skills of the teens I've worked with.  But sometimes the  

>> transcriptions show surprises!  They are not as accurate as they  

>> seem.

>>

>> Martha

>

>

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