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[EnglishLanguage 3468] Re: managing programs for ESLAmy Baker abaker at hispanicinterest.orgFri Jan 16 16:43:39 EST 2009
Hi All, I am excited to be a part of this discussion list! I am interested in advice from anyone who has managed a small [in its early days at least] ESL program for a nonprofit agency. I am also interested in collaborating with K12 schools through this agency to provide high-quality ESL instruction to families. Our nonprofit is well-established and has been recognized statewide and nationally for many of the services it provides, however the ESL program is small, currently two classes per semester. I am the Language Programs Coordinator and I teach one of the classes. I have a MA in EESL, a TESOL certificate, and 9 years experience teaching ESL. I have experience building ESL programs in the public schools, but not at a nonprofit and not for adults. Any advice, insight, or suggestions from someone with similar experience would be greatly appreciated. Our biggest concern is making sure the instruction remains high quality while funds are extremely limited. Fortunately we have many connections with local ESL teachers, family literacy programs, and the local University, which has an EXCELLENT EESL MA program. This will be a tremendous help! Thank you! Best to you all in your endeavors! Amy Baker On Fri, Jan 16, 2009 at 11:34 AM, Anurag Sagar <sagar at centerforliteracy.org>wrote: > I agree with Karin about how the many different aspects of being an ESL > instructor can be helpful in being an ESL program manger. The classroom > background helps one in being able to anticipate the needs of ESL > learners, what may work well and what probably wouldn't (obviously every > teacher will have a different teaching style), but some teaching > ideas/techniques such as helping students who are "preliterate" can be > quite invaluable to a teacher who is struggling in the classroom. What > materials may really work well as well as other suggestions about lesson > planning are some of the ways I have been able to share my expertise > with the other ESL teachers in my program. > > Anurag Sagar > ESL Program Manager > Center for Literacy > Philadelphia, PA 19143 > 215-726-8240 > > -----Original Message----- > From: englishlanguage-bounces at nifl.gov > [mailto:englishlanguage-bounces at nifl.gov] On Behalf Of > englishlanguage-request at nifl.gov > Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 12:00 PM > To: englishlanguage at nifl.gov > Subject: EnglishLanguage Digest, Vol 40, Issue 26 > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of EnglishLanguage digest..." > > > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. [EnglishLanguage 3454] Re: Questions to discuss re managing > programs for adult English language lear (Karin Abell) > 2. [EnglishLanguage 3455] Re: Cooperation between Adult ESL and > K-12ESL - from Robin Lovrien Schwarz (Maricel Santos) > 3. [EnglishLanguage 3456] Re: managing programs for > adultEnglishlearners (Janet Isserlis) > 4. [EnglishLanguage 3457] Re: Cooperation between Adult ESL and > K-12ESL - from Robin Lovrien Schwarz (Susan Finn Miller) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 10:17:37 -0500 > From: "Karin Abell" <abellk at durhamtech.edu> > Subject: [EnglishLanguage 3454] Re: Questions to discuss re managing > programs for adult English language lear > To: "The Adult English Language Learners Discussion List" > <englishlanguage at nifl.gov> > Message-ID: <49705EC1.1942.0030.0 at durhamtech.edu> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > > Hi everyone! > > I wanted to add some additional thoughts to something that I posted > yesterday in relation to the following question: > > * Can a person who has no background in adult ESL instruction be > an effective manager of programs for adult English language learners? > Why or why not? > > One of the ways that I think my background in adult ESL instruction > helps me be a more effective manager is that I am able to anticipate > some of the needs of instructors. I know a lot about the types of > information instructors need as well as the importance of getting that > information in a timely manner. One example from earlier this week--I'd > made a handout to give to students (advertising a set of classes) and > suddenly I remembered how I used to feel when a student had information > that I didn't have as an instructor! I quickly made sure that the > instructors had the same information that the students had (so that they > didn't have to go, "hey, can I borrow that paper for a minute so I can > copy down the info on it?") > > Teaching experience is also helpful in terms of how to best communicate > with international students. At my community college, a lot of the > information about classes is written in long sentences that require > reading skills that a lot of my student population does not have. When > we write up information specifically for ESL students, we keep it > simple. We use short sentences, we put important words in bold, we add > pictures or photos if we can...and it makes a difference. It's similar > in terms of speaking with students. > > I definitely think that a person who has worked a lot with international > students (but hasn't taught adult ESL) probably could handle the > communication aspect of the job, though. > > One other point I wanted to make is that some ESL managers supervise > both instructors and office staff. I've noticed that there's a lot of > emphasis on having managers understand the job of the instructor but at > some institutions, it's also quite important for the manager to > understand the job responsibilities of the office staff. I never want to > be one of those managers who doesn't know how to use the computer system > (and life gets too busy for me to have that luxury anyway!). I believe > strongly in "keeping the talent happy" and this applies to everyone who > works in the program--not just the teachers. > > Karin M. Abell > ESL Program Director > Durham Technical Community College > 1637 Lawson Street, Durham, NC 27703 > Phone (919) 536-7221 ext. 3226 > > > > -- > This message has been scanned for viruses and > dangerous content by MailScanner, and is > believed to be clean. > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 07:24:03 -0800 (PST) > From: Maricel Santos <maricelgsantos at yahoo.com> > Subject: [EnglishLanguage 3455] Re: Cooperation between Adult ESL and > K-12ESL - from Robin Lovrien Schwarz > To: The Adult English Language Learners Discussion List > <englishlanguage at nifl.gov> > Message-ID: <391883.15230.qm at web30804.mail.mud.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" > > > Thanks to Robin for her thoughtful posting. I wanted to add 2 comments > in response to her question "Wouldn't it be wonderful to have a regular > source > of summaries of allkinds of research for our field?": > > (1) the need for access to research among ABE/ESL practitioners was one > of the key inspirations behind the design of the NCSALL study circles. > These are professional development opportunities to promote the > discussion of current research in our field. It'd be great to see > school districts supporting the engagement/cooperation and dialogue > around research of adult ESL and K-12 ESL through joint study circles. > Local teacher ed programs would have an important role to play in these > efforts, I imagine. > > (2) I think Jennifer Cromley'sLearning to think, learning to learn: > What the science of thinking and learning has to offer adult education, > published > in 2000, remains a wonderful example of how research (in this case > cognitive > science) which is normally inaccessible was made accessible to > practitioners. > This monograph also does a wonderful job of helping teachers understand > hallmarks of adult learning that address some of the issues Robin > mentioned (plasticiticity, processing, contextualized learning with > PBL). > > Best, Maricel > > Maricel Santos > San Francisco State University (English/TESOL) > > > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Miriam Burt <mburt at cal.org> > To: The Adult English Language Learners Discussion List > <englishlanguage at nifl.gov> > Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 6:58:54 AM > Subject: [EnglishLanguage 3453] Re: Cooperation between Adult ESL and > K-12ESL - from Robin Lovrien Schwarz > > > Hello, all. > > For some reason there were difficulties on my end getting > Robin Lovrien Schwarz's message (below) posted, so I'm posting it for > her. It > shouldn't happen again to her or anyone else's posts, though; I think > it's just a weird blip, some glitch in cyperspace. > > Miriam > ****** > Miriam Burt > Moderator, Adult English Language Learner Discussion > List > mburt at cal.org > > From: robinschwarz1 at aol.com > Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 1:13 AM > To: englishlanguage at nifl.gov > Subject: Re: [EnglishLanguage 3414] Re: > Cooperation between Adult ESL and K-12ESL > > Hi-- I am replying to Susan's > message but include several other replies in what I'd like to say about > teaching > adult or K-12 ESL. Susan says 'there are many similarities--e.g the > basics of language acquisition."..' actually, in my research on > adult language acquisition I have found that there are GREAT differences > between > adult and child acquisition--child acquisition--particularly for young > children > ( under age 12--some say 10) language acquisition is generally > effortless and > mostly unconscious while for adults it is characterized in the > literature as > effortful and conscious. This rather significant difference requires > that teaching methods for adult language learners be quite different > than for > children. One of the many causes of struggles in learning that I > have described in my work is that too often teachers use methodology > developed > on children to teach adult learners-- mostly talking at them and > believing that > will result in learning. The differences in the child and adult > brain in processing language sound are enormous and are a significant > part of > what makes language learning effortful. Paticia Kuhl, of the > University of Washington , says that from > babyhood on, the brain's ability to proces speech sounds that are > unfamiliar and > translate those into speech gestures declines measurably month by month. > > Add to that the fact that many adult ESOL learners are older (over > 40--meaning > their brains are less plastic--still plastic but mu ch less so), have > been > monollingual and have little formal education, and the challenges of > language > acquisition become larger and larger, a reality that teachers of young > children > do not face. > > In another post someone lamented the lack of > research on adult language learning. I would have to roundly disagree > that > there is a lack of research. What seems to be the problem is that there > is > no systematic way for ESOL teachers to access such research readily. > It required some heavy digging to find it, and much of it is in related > fields-- > reading, neuroscience, adult learning, linguistics, psychology, etc > --and done > in other countries and published in sort of "out of the way" journals, > therefore > requiring access through academic data bases and lots of time > searching. > > Wouldn't it be wonderful to have a regular source > of summaries of allkinds of research for our field? > > As has > been noted in several postings, teachers of K-12 ESOL often find it > difficult to > adjust their teaching to adults and I have witnessed-- at length-- just > such a > situation where a teacher who was a 5th grade ESL teacher during the > school > year, taught adult ESOL in the summer. A few of the behaviors > witnessed were: talking about herself in the third person (Teacher needs > help > with this. Who will help teacher?") using a yard stick to point at > students to respond (includin g elderly Somalis), hanging name signs > around the > learners' necks with ribbons, using children's books for activity pages, > > scolding students as if they were children, and mostly, NEVER talking > to > adults as adults--which resulted not only in her having NO idea how much > English > these students actually had, but in also in not knowing about religious > customs > and bringing in food the students could not eat. Even teachers who > have taught adults a long time may have the tendency to have class rules > where > adults must ask permission to leave the room, or line up in rows. > > When visiting classes or observing or talking to teachers who have spent > > time with younger learners, I FREQUENTLY hear language such as " I > LET my students look at pages in the picture dictionary we have not done > in > class?; or I never PERMIT my students to copy words, or " Should I ALLOW > my > student to read ahead of the class? etc.-- language of permission and > control that seem to me out of place in an adult classroom. > > The hard part is that out of respect for their teachers, most ESL > students will not complain about being treated as children, (though they > often > will vote with their feet), so feedback is difficult to obtain unless > actively > sought. > > On the other hand, some very successful teachers I > know work in K-12 simultaneously, or came out of it and HAVE made that > transition -- their strengths are a) that they have a wider repertoire > of act > ivities for learning than the typical adult-only teacher may have, and > b) they > are more willing to have fun and to experiment with different ways of > learning > than teachers who have only worked with adults. In addition, as someone > > noted, these teachers may have a better training in fundamentals of > reading and > writing. > > I am sure it is helpful to family literacy to have K-12 teachers > who are familiar with what the children are learning and with the > workings of > the school so as to help the adults navigate it better, but as several > have > noted, it still requires that the teacher teach adults in ways that work > for > adults. > > For a really successful family literacy endeavor, I refer > readers to the study of Robin Waterman ( I HOPE that is the right name) > that was > presented at the AIR/NIFL/CAPED conference in Sacramento two years ago. > This was a > study of the effect doing true, carefully delivered project learning > with > parents in an ESL class sponsored by a K-12 school to enhance the > English of the > parents so they could interact better with the school and their > children. The results were astounding, both quantitatively ( average > gains of 24 points on the BEST vs 7 in the control group) and > qualitatively, > with both parents and school personnel noticing that the goal of the > class was > clearly met. > > Sorry these posts are SO long!! > > Robin Lovrien > Schwarz > > > > > > > > > </ div>-----Original Message----- > From: Susan > Finn Miller <susanfinn_miller at IU13.org> > To: The Adult English Language > Learners Discussion List <englishlanguage at nifl.gov> > Sent: Thu, 15 Jan > 2009 10:00 am > Subject: [EnglishLanguage 3414] Re: Cooperation between Adult > ESL and K-12 ESL > Hello Martin > and all, > > In 1990, I started working in the field of adult ESL doing both > teaching and professional development. Along the way, I also started to > work > with ESL teachers in K12. While there are many similarities (e.g., the > basics of > language acquisition and linguistics, teaching methodology), I learned > quickly > that there are some important differences in the two fields, too. The > main > difference, as I see it, is the focus. First, even though it is > essential to > foster language for social interaction, K12 ESL teachers need to focus > on > children?s academic English skills from the beginning. The goal is for > children > to be able to use English to achieve academically in all the content > areas: > science, social studies, math, and language arts, as well as to do well > in other > classes such as art, music, physical education, etc. Thus, K12 ESL > teachers > ideally have in depth knowledge of the curriculum the children are > learning and > provide scaffolding and support to ensure ELLs achieve academically. In > other > words, they use the content of the curriculum to teach English language > skills. > > There are other differences as well: working within the demands > of a school system, which is often more highly structured than adult ESL > > programs and requires collaboration with non ESL teachers; dealing with > the > accountability (testing), which tends to be more demanding and stringent > than > adult ESL, and (importantly !) working with children?s families, etc. > > Some adult ELLs also have academic goals, so there can be a similar > focus. Moreover, both children and adult English language learners have > a goal > to improve their English communication skills and have a need to share > their > culture and learn about their new culture. As we all know, adults very > often > first need and want a focus on adult oriented life skills. > > I?ve always > thought that adult ESL teachers could benefit from participating in K12 > ESL > professional development activities because of both the similarities and > the > differences in the two fields. What?s more, the K12 teachers I teach in > my > graduate classes have been eager to learn about the issues adult > learners face > and how to work most effectively with families to support children?s > learning. > > Susan Finn Miller > Lancaster, PA > > > On 1/15/09 8:01 AM, > "Martin Senger" <MSenger at GECAC.org> > wrote: > Pax et > bonum! (peace & goodness) > > In your area, is there any/much > cooperation between the Adult ESL field > (teachers/administrators/professional > development/research) and K-12? > > I work with several adult ESL > teacher networks, but have very, very limited contact with the K-12 > crowd. Is > that the norm, or are we ?special?? I have just talked with the PA Dept > of > Ed/K-12 ESL section, and they said we could use their professional > development > (when pertinent). I just think it?s funny that we have people doing > basically > the same thing (ESL), but in completely different circles. Is there a > big enough > difference between adult ed and K-12 to warrant two individual fields? > What say > you? > > > Martin E. > Senger > Adult ESL / Civics > Teacher, > G.E.C.A.C. / The R. Banjamin Wiley Learning Center > Erie, > Pa. > Co-Director, > ESL Special Interest > Group > Pa. Assoc. for Adult Continuing Education > (PAACE) > > > From:englishlanguage-bounces at nifl.gov<From%3Aenglishlanguage-bounces at nifl.gov> > [mailto:englishlanguage-bounces at nif > l.gov]On Behalf Of Brigitte Marshall > Sent: Wednesday, > January 14, 2009 11:34 PM > To: The Adult English Language Learners > Discussion List > Subject: [EnglishLanguage 3410] Re: FW: Re: > managingprogramsforadultEnglish learners > > So many of us > who have pursued management of ESL Programs as a next step in our > journey as ESL > professionals are very committed to keeping the direct and real > connection with > the classroom. Several posters to this list discussion have talked about > the > value of remaining engaged at the classroom level because of their love > of > teaching and/or their desire to remain connected to students. I know > that for a > couple of years I struggled to juggle both, being an administrator and a > > classroom teacher, and in the end I discovered a way to feed my need to > teach > and stay connected more directly to students at the same time in a way > that I > had not anticipated. My motivation has always emanated from a commitment > to > refugee and immigrant students, but when I was asked to teach in an > adult > credentialing programming, I discovered a whole new way of contributing > something that I thought would ultimately be of benefit to refugees and > immigrants. Working with teachers as they are learning their craft can > be > wonderfully rewarding and provided me with the opportunity to engage > with > teachers in a way that was not evaluative or supervisory ? which raises > another > question I have been wondering about?. > > When I was going through the > administrative credentialing program, the professor who was leading the > section > on supervision and evaluation made a couple of very strong > recommendations; the > first=2 0was that administrators and program managers should not try to > be > instructional experts and should not try to critique the teachers they > were > supervising and observing from a place of expertise. The second was that > as the > supervisor and/or evaluator, an administrator or program manager is very > ill > positioned to be a coach, or the person identified to help and support a > teacher > because the supervisory dynamic will get in the way. > What do others think > about these recommendations? > Can ESL Program Managers continue over time to > be experts on instructional practice, or should they acknowledge that > being out > of the classroom either entirely or more than they are in it, reduces > their > ability to speak from a platform of expertise? And if an ESL Program > Manager > does not speak from a platform of instructional and specific ESL > expertise, how > do they effectively manage and supervise? > Do you agree that administrators > and program managers are not the best people to be coaches for teachers > who need > support to develop their craft? If not the Program manager, then > who? > > > Brigitte > Marshall, Director > Oakland Adult and Career Education > McClymonds Education > Complex > 2607 Myrtle > Street , Oakland , CA 94607 > > Tel: (510) 879 > 3037 > Fax: (510) 452 2077 > </ i> > Expect > Success. Every student. Every classroom. Every day. > > ________________________________ > > From:englishlanguage-bounces at nifl.gov<From%3Aenglishlanguage-bounces at nifl.gov> > [mailto:englishlanguage-bounces at nif > l.gov]On Behalf Of Diaz, Beatriz B. > Sent: Tuesday, > January 13, 2009 7:05 PM > To: The Adult English Language Learners > Discussion List > Subject: RE: [EnglishLanguage 3347] Re: FW: Re: > managing programsforadultEnglishlearners > > > As the > "leader" of a very large Adult ESOL program, I wear many hats but more > and > more I find it difficult to get away from my "administrator crown", > which is the > one I like the least. I strongly believe that programs improve and > better > service students if leaders are in the class, in the centers and in the > > community facilating English literacy opportunities and expanding our > learning > communities. Unfortunately, many hours of my day are spent processing > the right > form, approving purchase orders and attending meetings. Is this typical > of > others in similar positions? How20have other achieved a balance short > of > putting in 20 hours of work per day? > > > > ________________________________ > > From:englishlanguage-bounces at nifl.govon behalf of Betsy Wong > Sent: Tue 1/13/2009 10:50 > AM > To: 'The Adult English Language Learners Discussion > List' > Subject: [EnglishLanguage 3347] Re: FW: Re: managing > programsforadultEnglishlearners > > In keeping with the spirit of a chain dialogue, I wanted to > highlight > something that Laurie said: > > "What I find more important is > recognizing really good teaching methods and > resources available and > providing opportunities to share those in your > program." > > I think that > this is a really important part of a program manager's role, > and it gets back > to the points that have been made about striving to be a > visionary and > achieving balance. > > It also points to a solution to a dilemma that many of > us face: In the face > of shrunken resources, what can we offer teachers when > salary increases or > full-time positions are simply not on the table? > > I > think that pro fessional development opportunities can be something to > help > "sell" a program to a prospective teacher and help motivate (and > retain) > current teachers. This can be through formal in-service meetings > responding > to teachers' stated needs or informal discussions or focus groups > that allow > teachers to share ideas and give input on program decisions. > > > What do the rest of you think? Suggestions? > > Betsy Lindeman > Wong > Lead ESL Teacher > Alexandria Adult and Community > Education > > -----Original Message----- > From: englishlanguage-bounces at nifl.gov > [mailto:englishlanguage-bounces at nifl.gov]On Behalf Of Mangum, Laurie > (ACE) > Sent: Tuesday, January 13, > 2009 9:18 AM > To: englishlanguage at nifl.gov > Subject: [EnglishLanguage 3342] FW: Re: managing > programs > foradultEnglishlearners > > I wanted to respond to Brigitte's > thought > > "I think it would be very interesting to explore this last point > a > little > bit more. We have already asked if we think that ESOL Program > Managers > should ideally have ESOL classroom experience - but what do we > think > about the need for an effective ESOL Program Manager to have been > a > good, or really good teacher? Is this a necessary pre-requisite? And > is > an effective ESOL Program manager's effectiveness derived from > their > ongoing expertise as a classroom instructor? Is it20really possible > for > an ESOL Program Manager to remain current and a model of > good > instructional practice? If they don't, could they still be able > to > manage and supervise other ESL instructors effectively?" > > > My > name is Laurie Mangum, I manage the Family Literacy program under > Adult ESOL > for Fairfax County Public Schools. I had taught a > non-intensive ESOL > class (first as a volunteer and then paid) before > taking on the > responsibility to coordinate this program but I always > think of my > professional background as a project manager. I am often > frustrated by > the idea in Education that good teachers make good > administrators. I > don't necessarily think being a really good teacher > is a pre-requisite to > running a really good program. What I find more > important is > recognizing really good teaching methods and resources > available and > providing opportunities to share those in your program. I > see part of > my job to be a consulting role and look for best practices > to share with my > staff. Managing the many facets of a program and being > adept at > changing strategies when something isn't working are also > instrumental to > being successful in the role. Or as some people have > described my job: > having the ability to juggle while herding cats. > > > > Laurie > Mangum > Family Literacy Specialist/Adult ESOL > Fairfax County Public > Schools > Adult & Community Education > P lum Center for Lifelong > Learning > 6815 Edsall Rd. > Springfield, VA 22151 > > Phone: > 703-658-2760 > > > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > http://www.nifl.gov/pipermail/englishlanguage/attachments/20090116/c4357 > 6cc/attachment-0001.html > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 11:40:13 -0500 > From: Janet Isserlis <Janet_Isserlis at brown.edu> > Subject: [EnglishLanguage 3456] Re: managing programs for > adultEnglishlearners > To: The Adult English Language Learners Discussion List > <englishlanguage at nifl.gov> > Message-ID: <C596229D.282F2%Janet_Isserlis at brown.edu<C596229D.282F2%25Janet_Isserlis at brown.edu> > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > > to add to MaryAnn's excellent insights, key question that arise for me > focus > around a person's ability to listen, to know what it is she or he knows > and > doesn't know and how to ask questions to get the information s/he needs > to > have in order to make well-informed decisions. > > There are plenty of people with knowledge of the field who are not good > managers, plenty of good managers who don't know the field. We all know > that. In my view - as MaryAnn wisely suggests - it's not a Yes or No > question. > > If a manager knows nothing about adult learning but knows that s/he > needs to > learn key pieces about it in order to support the agency, then fine. > If, > however, a manager refuses to listen or learn - no matter how gifted he > or > she might be - the agency might survive financially, but what will > happen to > its soul? > > Again - there are rules, exceptions, individuals -- it really does > depend on > what's going on in a particular agency. My own experience has been that > Professional Managers without content knowledge can do great good or > great > harm. It's a complicated set of questions, which people here seem to be > acknowledging. > > Janet Isserlis > > > > From: MaryAnn Florez <mflorez at dclearns.org> > > Reply-To: The Adult English Language Learners Discussion List > > <englishlanguage at nifl.gov> > > Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 09:53:24 -0500 > > To: 'The Adult English Language Learners Discussion List' > > <englishlanguage at nifl.gov> > > Subject: [EnglishLanguage 3344] Re: managing programs for > adultEnglishlearners > > > > One of the program directors in this area that I know and highly, > highly > > respect, has no background as a teacher, and I think her only adult > > education experience has come from her work with her current > organization. > > What she does have are skills and knowledge in fundraising, board > > development, systems management, strategic and program planning, and > > outreach and community development. She is also smart enough and > secure > > enough to surround herself with next tier managers and coordinators > who do > > have specializations and excellent skills in instructional planning > and > > execution, curriculum development, and volunteer management. > > > > Meeting and working with her has made me think twice about what that > > connection between managing and teaching could/should/doesn't > necessarily > > need to be. I don't think it's a black and white answer. And if you > asked > > me to decide between two coordinator candidates, one with teaching and > > experience and one without, all other things being equal, I would > still > > choose the one with teaching experience. But I think like many > things, it > > depends on how all those skills and experiences come together in a > > particular person, AND I think it depends on the program in question, > and > > what its needs and peculiarities are. > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 11:47:07 -0500 > From: Susan Finn Miller <susanfinn_miller at IU13.org> > Subject: [EnglishLanguage 3457] Re: Cooperation between Adult ESL and > K-12ESL - from Robin Lovrien Schwarz > To: The Adult English Language Learners Discussion List > <englishlanguage at nifl.gov> > Message-ID: <C596243B.4919%susanfinn_miller at iu13.org<C596243B.4919%25susanfinn_miller at iu13.org> > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > I greatly appreciate Robin's thoughtful and in depth response. I agree > completely that there are differences between certain aspects of second > language acquisition for children and adults. Importantly, our approach > to instruction must be quite different, too. Several posters have > acknowledged that there are teachers who easily make the switch between > working with children and adults and some who have much to learn. > > On the issue of second language acquisition, it is obvious that many > more children become proficient in a second language than adults. > Nevertheless, it is relevant to point out that learning a second > language for children, while different, is not categorically easy. Many > years ago (1992), Barry McLaughlin published an article targeting K12 > teachers entitled "Myths and misconceptions about second language > learning: What every teacher needs to unlearn," which is available > online at http://www.ncela.gwu.edu/pubs/ncrcdsll/epr5.htm > > Anyone interested in this topic, might also want to check out an > interview with Harvard professor Catherine Snow on this topic, "Looking > closely at second language acquisition," available at > http://www.gse.harvard.edu/news/features/snow10012002.html. > > Also related, Catherine Snow co-authored an article with Marinova-Todd, > and Bradford Marshall in the 2002 TESOL Quarterly (Volume 34, Issue 1), > "Three Misconceptions about Age and L2 Learning." While I think these > authors' analysis is interesting and compelling, it does not necessarily > settle all the questions related to age and language learning. > > Let's hope researchers have expanded resources to continue exploring > these complex issues and that teachers have increased opportunities to > learn how to apply the relevant research to their instruction. > > Susan Finn Miller > Lancaster, PA > > > On 1/16/09 9:58 AM, "Miriam Burt" <mburt at cal.org> wrote: > > Hello, all. > > For some reason there were difficulties on my end getting Robin Lovrien > Schwarz's message (below) posted, so I'm posting it for her. It > shouldn't happen again to her or anyone else's posts, though; I think > it's just a weird blip, some glitch in cyperspace. > > Miriam > ****** > Miriam Burt > Moderator, Adult English Language Learner Discussion List > mburt at cal.org > > From: robinschwarz1 at aol.com > Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 1:13 AM > To: englishlanguage at nifl.gov > Subject: Re: [EnglishLanguage 3414] Re: Cooperation between Adult ESL > and K-12ESL > > Hi-- I am replying to Susan's message but include several other replies > in what I'd like to say about teaching adult or K-12 ESL. Susan says > 'there are many similarities--e.g the basics of language > acquisition."..' actually, in my research on adult language > acquisition I have found that there are GREAT differences between adult > and child acquisition--child acquisition--particularly for young > children ( under age 12--some say 10) language acquisition is generally > effortless and mostly unconscious while for adults it is characterized > in the literature as effortful and conscious. This rather significant > difference requires that teaching methods for adult language learners be > quite different than for children. One of the many causes of struggles > in learning that I have described in my work is that too often teachers > use methodology developed on children to teach adult learners-- mostly > talking at them and believing that will result in learning. The > differences in the ch > > ild and adult brain in processing language sound are enormous and are a > significant part of what makes language learning effortful. Paticia > Kuhl, of the University of Washington, says that from babyhood on, the > brain's ability to proces speech sounds that are unfamiliar and > translate those into speech gestures declines measurably month by month. > Add to that the fact that many adult ESOL learners are older (over > 40--meaning their brains are less plastic--still plastic but mu ch less > so), have been monollingual and have little formal education, and the > challenges of language acquisition become larger and larger, a reality > that teachers of young children do not face. > > In another post someone lamented the lack of research on adult language > learning. I would have to roundly disagree that there is a lack of > research. What seems to be the problem is that there is no systematic > way for ESOL teachers to access such research readily. It required > some heavy digging to find it, and much of it is in related fields-- > reading, neuroscience, adult learning, linguistics, psychology, etc > --and done in other countries and published in sort of "out of the way" > journals, therefore requiring access through academic data bases and > lots of time searching. > > Wouldn't it be wonderful to have a regular source of summaries of > allkinds of research for our field? > > As has been noted in several postings, teachers of K-12 ESOL often find > it difficult to adjust their teaching to adults and I have witnessed-- > at length-- just such a situation where a teacher who was a 5th grade > ESL teacher during the school year, taught adult ESOL in the summer. A > few of the behaviors witnessed were: talking about herself in the third > person (Teacher needs help with this. Who will help teacher?") using a > yard stick to point at students to respond (includin g elderly Somalis), > hanging name signs around the learners' necks with ribbons, using > children's books for activity pages, scolding students as if they were > children, and mostly, NEVER talking to adults as adults--which resulted > not only in her having NO idea how much English these students actually > had, but in also in not knowing about religious customs and bringing in > food the students could not eat. Even teachers who have taught adults > a long time may have the tendency to have class rules where > > adults must ask permission to leave the room, or line up in rows. > > When visiting classes or observing or talking to teachers who have spent > time with younger learners, I FREQUENTLY hear language such as " I LET > my students look at pages in the picture dictionary we have not done in > class?; or I never PERMIT my students to copy words, or " Should I ALLOW > my student to read ahead of the class? etc.-- language of permission > and control that seem to me out of place in an adult classroom. > > The hard part is that out of respect for their teachers, most ESL > students will not complain about being treated as children, (though they > often will vote with their feet), so feedback is difficult to obtain > unless actively sought. > > On the other hand, some very successful teachers I know work in K-12 > simultaneously, or came out of it and HAVE made that transition -- their > strengths are a) that they have a wider repertoire of act ivities for > learning than the typical adult-only teacher may have, and b) they are > more willing to have fun and to experiment with different ways of > learning than teachers who have only worked with adults. In addition, > as someone noted, these teachers may have a better training in > fundamentals of reading and writing. > > I am sure it is helpful to family literacy to have K-12 teachers who are > familiar with what the children are learning and with the workings of > the school so as to help the adults navigate it better, but as several > have noted, it still requires that the teacher teach adults in ways that > work for adults. > > For a really successful family literacy endeavor, I refer readers to the > study of Robin Waterman ( I HOPE that is the right name) that was > presented at the AIR/NIFL/CAPED conference in Sacramento two years ago. > This was a study of the effect doing true, carefully delivered project > learning with parents in an ESL class sponsored by a K-12 school to > enhance the English of the parents so they could interact better with > the school and their children. The results were astounding, both > quantitatively ( average gains of 24 points on the BEST vs 7 in the > control group) and qualitatively, with both parents and school personnel > noticing that the goal of the class was clearly met. > > Sorry these posts are SO long!! > > Robin Lovrien Schwarz > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Susan Finn Miller <susanfinn_miller at IU13.org> > To: The Adult English Language Learners Discussion List > <englishlanguage at nifl.gov> > Sent: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 10:00 am > Subject: [EnglishLanguage 3414] Re: Cooperation between Adult ESL and > K-12 ESL > Hello Martin and all, > > In 1990, I started working in the field of adult ESL doing both teaching > and professional development. Along the way, I also started to work with > ESL teachers in K12. While there are many similarities (e.g., the basics > of language acquisition and linguistics, teaching methodology), I > learned quickly that there are some important differences in the two > fields, too. The main difference, as I see it, is the focus. First, even > though it is essential to foster language for social interaction, K12 > ESL teachers need to focus on children's academic English skills from > the beginning. The goal is for children to be able to use English to > achieve academically in all the content areas: science, social studies, > math, and language arts, as well as to do well in other classes such as > art, music, physical education, etc. Thus, K12 ESL teachers ideally have > in depth knowledge of the curriculum the children are learning and > provide scaffolding and support to ensure ELLs achieve academically. I > > n other words, they use the content of the curriculum to teach English > language skills. > > There are other differences as well: working within the demands of a > school system, which is often more highly structured than adult ESL > programs and requires collaboration with non ESL teachers; dealing with > the accountability (testing), which tends to be more demanding and > stringent than adult ESL, and (importantly !) working with children's > families, etc. > > Some adult ELLs also have academic goals, so there can be a similar > focus. Moreover, both children and adult English language learners have > a goal to improve their English communication skills and have a need to > share their culture and learn about their new culture. As we all know, > adults very often first need and want a focus on adult oriented life > skills. > > I've always thought that adult ESL teachers could benefit from > participating in K12 ESL professional development activities because of > both the similarities and the differences in the two fields. What's > more, the K12 teachers I teach in my graduate classes have been eager to > learn about the issues adult learners face and how to work most > effectively with families to support children's learning. > > Susan Finn Miller > Lancaster, PA > > > On 1/15/09 8:01 AM, "Martin Senger" <MSenger at GECAC.org> wrote: > Pax et bonum! (peace & goodness) > > In your area, is there any/much cooperation between the Adult ESL field > (teachers/administrators/professional development/research) and K-12? > > I work with several adult ESL teacher networks, but have very, very > limited contact with the K-12 crowd. Is that the norm, or are we > "special?" I have just talked with the PA Dept of Ed/K-12 ESL section, > and they said we could use their professional development (when > pertinent). I just think it's funny that we have people doing basically > the same thing (ESL), but in completely different circles. Is there a > big enough difference between adult ed and K-12 to warrant two > individual fields? What say you? > > > Martin E. Senger > Adult ESL / Civics Teacher, > G.E.C.A.C. / The R. Banjamin Wiley Learning Center > Erie, Pa. > Co-Director, > ESL Special Interest Group > Pa. Assoc. for Adult Continuing Education (PAACE) > > > From: englishlanguage-bounces at nifl.gov > [mailto:englishlanguage-bounces at nifl.gov] > <mailto:englishlanguage-bounces at nifl.gov%5D><mailto:englishlanguage-boun > ces at nifl.gov%5D> On Behalf Of Brigitte Marshall > Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 11:34 PM > To: The Adult English Language Learners Discussion List > Subject: [EnglishLanguage 3410] Re: FW: Re: > managingprogramsforadultEnglish learners > > So many of us who have pursued management of ESL Programs as a next step > in our journey as ESL professionals are very committed to keeping the > direct and real connection with the classroom. Several posters to this > list discussion have talked about the value of remaining engaged at the > classroom level because of their love of teaching and/or their desire to > remain connected to students. I know that for a couple of years I > struggled to juggle both, being an administrator and a classroom > teacher, and in the end I discovered a way to feed my need to teach and > stay connected more directly to students at the same time in a way that > I had not anticipated. My motivation has always emanated from a > commitment to refugee and immigrant students, but when I was asked to > teach in an adult credentialing programming, I discovered a whole new > way of contributing something that I thought would ultimately be of > benefit to refugees and immigrants. Working with teachers as they are > learning their > > craft can be wonderfully rewarding and provided me with the > opportunity to engage with teachers in a way that was not evaluative or > supervisory - which raises another question I have been wondering > about.... > > When I was going through the administrative credentialing program, the > professor who was leading the section on supervision and evaluation made > a couple of very strong recommendations; the first=2 0was that > administrators and program managers should not try to be instructional > experts and should not try to critique the teachers they were > supervising and observing from a place of expertise. The second was that > as the supervisor and/or evaluator, an administrator or program manager > is very ill positioned to be a coach, or the person identified to help > and support a teacher because the supervisory dynamic will get in the > way. > What do others think about these recommendations? > Can ESL Program Managers continue over time to be experts on > instructional practice, or should they acknowledge that being out of the > classroom either entirely or more than they are in it, reduces their > ability to speak from a platform of expertise? And if an ESL Program > Manager does not speak from a platform of instructional and specific ESL > expertise, how do they effectively manage and supervise? > Do you agree that administrators and program managers are not the best > people to be coaches for teachers who need support to develop their > craft? If not the Program manager, then who? > > > Brigitte Marshall, Director > Oakland Adult and Career Education > McClymonds Education Complex > 2607 Myrtle Street, Oakland, CA 94607 > > Tel: (510) 879 3037 > Fax: (510) 452 2077 > > Expect Success. Every student. Every classroom. Every day. > > ________________________________ > > From: englishlanguage-bounces at nifl.gov > [mailto:englishlanguage-bounces at nifl.gov] > <mailto:englishlanguage-bounces at nifl.gov%5D><mailto:englishlanguage-boun > ces at nifl.gov%5D> On Behalf Of Diaz, Beatriz B. > Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2009 7:05 PM > To: The Adult English Language Learners Discussion List > Subject: RE: [EnglishLanguage 3347] Re: FW: Re: managing > programsforadultEnglishlearners > > > As the "leader" of a very large Adult ESOL program, I wear many hats > but more and more I find it difficult to get away from my "administrator > crown", which is the one I like the least. I strongly believe that > programs improve and better service students if leaders are in the > class, in the centers and in the community facilating English literacy > opportunities and expanding our learning communities. Unfortunately, > many hours of my day are spent processing the right form, approving > purchase orders and attending meetings. Is this typical of others in > similar positions? How20have other achieved a balance short of putting > in 20 hours of work per day? > > > > ________________________________ > > From: englishlanguage-bounces at nifl.gov on behalf of Betsy Wong > Sent: Tue 1/13/2009 10:50 AM > To: 'The Adult English Language Learners Discussion List' > Subject: [EnglishLanguage 3347] Re: FW: Re: managing > programsforadultEnglishlearners > > In keeping with the spirit of a chain dialogue, I wanted to highlight > something that Laurie said: > > "What I find more important is recognizing really good teaching methods > and > resources available and providing opportunities to share those in your > program." > > I think that this is a really important part of a program manager's > role, > and it gets back to the points that have been made about striving to be > a > visionary and achieving balance. > > It also points to a solution to a dilemma that many of us face: In the > face > of shrunken resources, what can we offer teachers when salary increases > or > full-time positions are simply not on the table? > > I think that pro fessional development opportunities can be something to > help > "sell" a program to a prospective teacher and help motivate (and retain) > current teachers. This can be through formal in-service meetings > responding > to teachers' stated needs or informal discussions or focus groups that > allow > teachers to share ideas and give input on program decisions. > > What do the rest of you think? Suggestions? > > Betsy Lindeman Wong > Lead ESL Teacher > Alexandria Adult and Community Education > > -----Original Message----- > From: englishlanguage-bounces at nifl.gov > [mailto:englishlanguage-bounces at nifl.gov] > <mailto:englishlanguage-bounces at nifl.gov%5D><mailto:englishlanguage-boun > ces at nifl.gov%5D> On Behalf Of Mangum, Laurie (ACE) > Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2009 9:18 AM > To: englishlanguage at nifl.gov > Subject: [EnglishLanguage 3342] FW: Re: managing programs > foradultEnglishlearners > > I wanted to respond to Brigitte's thought > > "I think it would be very interesting to explore this last point a > little > bit more. We have already asked if we think that ESOL Program Managers > should ideally have ESOL classroom experience - but what do we think > about the need for an effective ESOL Program Manager to have been a > good, or really good teacher? Is this a necessary pre-requisite? And is > an effective ESOL Program manager's effectiveness derived from their > ongoing expertise as a classroom instructor? Is it20really possible for > an ESOL Program Manager to remain current and a model of good > instructional practice? If they don't, could they still be able to > manage and supervise other ESL instructors effectively?" > > > My name is Laurie Mangum, I manage the Family Literacy program under > Adult ESOL for Fairfax County Public Schools. I had taught a > non-intensive ESOL class (first as a volunteer and then paid) before > taking on the responsibility to coordinate this program but I always > think of my professional background as a project manager. I am often > frustrated by the idea in Education that good teachers make good > administrators. I don't necessarily think being a really good teacher > is a pre-requisite to running a really good program. What I find more > important is recognizing really good teaching methods and resources > available and providing opportunities to share those in your program. I > see part of my job to be a consulting role and look for best practices > to share with my staff. Managing the many facets of a program and being > adept at changing strategies when something isn't working are also > instrumental to being successful in the role. Or as some people have > described my job: having the ability to juggle while herding cats. > > > > Laurie Mangum > Family Literacy Specialist/Adult ESOL > Fairfax County Public Schools > Adult & Community Education > P lum Center for Lifelong Learning > 6815 Edsall Rd. > Springfield, VA 22151 > > Phone: 703-658-2760 > > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > http://www.nifl.gov/pipermail/englishlanguage/attachments/20090116/4dabd > 28c/attachment-0001.html > > ------------------------------ > > ---------------------------------------------------- > National Institute for Literacy > Adult English Language Learners mailing list > EnglishLanguage at nifl.gov > To unsubscribe or change your subscription settings, please go to > http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/englishlanguage > > End of EnglishLanguage Digest, Vol 40, Issue 26 > *********************************************** > ---------------------------------------------------- > National Institute for Literacy > Adult English Language Learners mailing list > EnglishLanguage at nifl.gov > To unsubscribe or change your subscription settings, please go to > http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/englishlanguage > Email delivered to abaker at hispanicinterest.org > -- Amy Baker HICA ESL Teacher and Language Program Coordinator -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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