Hello, all.
 
For some reason  there were difficulties on my end getting Robin Lovrien
Schwarz's message (below) posted, so I'm posting it for her. It
shouldn't happen again to her or anyone else's posts, though; I think
it's just a weird blip, some glitch in cyperspace. 
 
Miriam
******
Miriam Burt
Moderator, Adult English Language Learner Discussion List
mburt at cal.org
 

From: robinschwarz1 at aol.com
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 1:13 AM
To: englishlanguage at nifl.gov
Subject: Re: [EnglishLanguage 3414] Re: Cooperation between Adult ESL
and K-12ESL

 

Hi-- I am replying to Susan's message but include several other replies
in what I'd like to say about teaching adult or K-12 ESL.  Susan says
'there are many similarities--e.g  the basics of language
acquisition."..'   actually, in my research on adult language
acquisition I have found that there are GREAT differences between adult
and child acquisition--child acquisition--particularly for young
children ( under age 12--some say 10) language acquisition is generally
effortless and mostly unconscious while for adults it is characterized
in the literature as effortful and conscious.   This rather significant
difference requires that teaching methods for adult language learners be
quite different than for children.   One of the many causes of struggles
in learning that I have described in my work is that too often teachers
use methodology developed on children to teach adult learners-- mostly
talking at them and believing that will result in learning.   The
differences in the child and adult brain in processing language sound
are enormous and are a significant part of what makes language learning
effortful.   Paticia Kuhl, of the University of Washington, says that
from babyhood on, the brain's ability to proces speech sounds that are
unfamiliar and translate those into speech gestures declines measurably
month by month.  Add to that the fact that many adult ESOL learners are
older (over 40--meaning their brains are less plastic--still plastic but
mu ch less so), have been monollingual and have little formal education,
and the challenges of language acquisition become larger and larger, a
reality that teachers of young children do not face.   

In another post someone lamented the lack of research on adult language
learning.  I would have to roundly disagree that there is a lack of
research.  What seems to be the problem is that there is no systematic
way for ESOL teachers to access such research readily.   It required
some heavy digging to find it, and much of it is in related fields--
reading, neuroscience, adult learning, linguistics, psychology, etc
--and done in other countries and published in sort of "out of the way"
journals, therefore requiring access through academic data bases and
lots of time searching.   

Wouldn't it be wonderful to have a regular source of summaries of
allkinds of research for our field?   

As has been noted in several postings, teachers of K-12 ESOL often find
it difficult to adjust their teaching to adults and I have witnessed--
at length-- just such a situation where a teacher who was a 5th grade
ESL teacher during the school year, taught adult ESOL in the summer.   A
few of the behaviors witnessed were: talking about herself in the third
person (Teacher needs help with this. Who will help teacher?")  using a
yard stick to point at students to respond (includin g elderly Somalis),
hanging name signs around the learners' necks with ribbons, using
children's books for activity pages,  scolding students as if they were
children, and mostly,  NEVER talking to adults as adults--which resulted
not only in her having NO idea how much English these students actually
had, but in also in not knowing about religious customs and bringing in
food the students could not eat.   Even teachers who have taught adults
a long time may have the tendency to have class rules where adults must
ask permission to leave the room, or line up in rows.   

When visiting classes or observing or talking to teachers who have spent
time with  younger learners,  I FREQUENTLY hear language such as " I LET
my students look at pages in the picture dictionary we have not done in
class?; or I never PERMIT my students to copy words, or " Should I ALLOW
my student to read ahead of the class?  etc.-- language of permission
and control that seem to me out of place in an adult classroom.     

The hard part is that out of respect for their teachers, most ESL
students will not complain about being treated as children, (though they
often will vote with their feet), so feedback is difficult to obtain
unless actively sought.   

On the other hand, some very successful teachers I know work in K-12
simultaneously, or came out of it and HAVE made that transition -- their
strengths are a) that they have a wider repertoire of act ivities for
learning than the typical adult-only teacher may have, and b) they are
more willing to have fun and to experiment with different ways of
learning than teachers who have only worked with adults.  In addition,
as someone noted, these teachers may have a better training in
fundamentals of reading and writing.

I am sure it is helpful to family literacy to have K-12 teachers who are
familiar with what the children are learning and with the workings of
the school so as to help the adults navigate it better, but as several
have noted, it still requires that the teacher teach adults in ways that
work for adults.   

For a really successful family literacy endeavor, I refer readers to the
study of Robin Waterman ( I HOPE that is the right name) that was
presented at the AIR/NIFL/CAPED conference in Sacramento two years ago.
This was a study of the effect doing true, carefully delivered project
learning with parents in an ESL class sponsored by a K-12 school to
enhance the English of the parents so they could interact better with
the school and their children.   The results were astounding, both
quantitatively ( average gains of 24 points on the BEST vs 7 in the
control group) and qualitatively, with both parents and school personnel
noticing that the goal of the class was clearly met.  

Sorry these posts are SO long!!

Robin Lovrien Schwarz



    



 



-----Original Message-----
From: Susan Finn Miller <susanfinn_miller at IU13.org>
To: The Adult English Language Learners Discussion List
<englishlanguage at nifl.gov>
Sent: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 10:00 am
Subject: [EnglishLanguage 3414] Re: Cooperation between Adult ESL and
K-12 ESL

Hello Martin and all,

In 1990, I started working in the field of adult ESL doing both teaching
and professional development. Along the way, I also started to work with
ESL teachers in K12. While there are many similarities (e.g., the basics
of language acquisition and linguistics, teaching methodology), I
learned quickly that there are some important differences in the two
fields, too. The main difference, as I see it, is the focus. First, even
though it is essential to foster language for social interaction, K12
ESL teachers need to focus on children's academic English skills from
the beginning. The goal is for children to be able to use English to
achieve academically in all the content areas: science, social studies,
math, and language arts, as well as to do well in other classes such as
art, music, physical education, etc. Thus, K12 ESL teachers ideally have
in depth knowledge of the curriculum the children are learning and
provide scaffolding and support to ensure ELLs achieve academically. In
other words, they use the content of the curriculum to teach English
language skills.

There are other differences as well: working within the demands of a
school system, which is often more highly structured than adult ESL
programs and requires collaboration with non ESL teachers; dealing with
the accountability (testing), which tends to be more demanding and
stringent than adult ESL, and (importantly !) working with children's
families, etc. 

Some adult ELLs also have academic goals, so there can be a similar
focus. Moreover, both children and adult English language learners have
a goal to improve their English communication skills and have a need to
share their culture and learn about their new culture. As we all know,
adults very often first need and want a focus on adult oriented life
skills. 

I've always thought that adult ESL teachers could benefit from
participating in K12 ESL professional development activities because of
both the similarities and the differences in the two fields. What's
more, the K12 teachers I teach in my graduate classes have been eager to
learn about the issues adult learners face and how to work most
effectively with families to support children's learning. 

Susan Finn Miller
Lancaster, PA


On 1/15/09 8:01 AM, "Martin Senger" <MSenger at GECAC.org> wrote:

Pax et bonum! (peace & goodness)
 
In your area, is there any/much cooperation between the Adult ESL field
(teachers/administrators/professional development/research) and K-12?
 
I work with several adult ESL teacher networks, but have very, very
limited contact with the K-12 crowd. Is that the norm, or are we
"special?" I have just talked with the PA Dept of Ed/K-12 ESL section,
and they said we could use their professional development (when
pertinent). I just think it's funny that we have people doing basically
the same thing (ESL), but in completely different circles. Is there a
big enough difference between adult ed and K-12 to warrant two
individual fields? What say you?
 

Martin E. Senger
Adult ESL / Civics Teacher,
G.E.C.A.C. / The R. Banjamin Wiley Learning Center
Erie, Pa.
Co-Director,
ESL Special Interest Group
Pa. Assoc. for Adult Continuing Education (PAACE)


From: englishlanguage-bounces at nifl.gov
[mailto:englishlanguage-bounces at nifl.gov]
<mailto:englishlanguage-bounces at nifl.gov%5D>  On Behalf Of Brigitte
Marshall
Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 11:34 PM
To: The Adult English Language Learners Discussion List
Subject: [EnglishLanguage 3410] Re: FW: Re:
managingprogramsforadultEnglish learners

So many of us who have pursued management of ESL Programs as a next step
in our journey as ESL professionals are very committed to keeping the
direct and real connection with the classroom. Several posters to this
list discussion have talked about the value of remaining engaged at the
classroom level because of their love of teaching and/or their desire to
remain connected to students. I know that for a couple of years I
struggled to juggle both, being an administrator and a classroom
teacher, and in the end I discovered a way to feed my need to teach and
stay connected more directly to students at the same time in a way that
I had not anticipated. My motivation has always emanated from a
commitment to refugee and immigrant students, but when I was asked to
teach in an adult credentialing programming, I discovered a whole new
way of contributing something that I thought would ultimately be of
benefit to refugees and immigrants. Working with teachers as they are
learning their craft can be wonderfully rewarding and provided me with
the opportunity to engage with teachers in a way that was not evaluative
or supervisory - which raises another question I have been wondering
about....
 
When I was going through the administrative credentialing program, the
professor who was leading the section on supervision and evaluation made
a couple of very strong recommendations; the first=2 0was that
administrators and program managers should not try to be instructional
experts and should not try to critique the teachers they were
supervising and observing from a place of expertise. The second was that
as the supervisor and/or evaluator, an administrator or program manager
is very ill positioned to be a coach, or the person identified to help
and support a teacher because the supervisory dynamic will get in the
way. 
What do others think about these recommendations? 
Can ESL Program Managers continue over time to be experts on
instructional practice, or should they acknowledge that being out of the
classroom either entirely or more than they are in it, reduces their
ability to speak from a platform of expertise? And if an ESL Program
Manager does not speak from a platform of instructional and specific ESL
expertise, how do they effectively manage and supervise?
Do you agree that administrators and program managers are not the best
people to be coaches for teachers who need support to develop their
craft? If not the Program manager, then who?
 

Brigitte Marshall, Director
Oakland Adult and Career Education
McClymonds Education Complex
2607 Myrtle Street, Oakland, CA 94607

Tel: (510) 879 3037
Fax: (510) 452 2077 

Expect Success. Every student. Every classroom. Every day. 

________________________________

From: englishlanguage-bounces at nifl.gov
[mailto:englishlanguage-bounces at nifl.gov]
<mailto:englishlanguage-bounces at nifl.gov%5D>  On Behalf Of Diaz, Beatriz
B.
Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2009 7:05 PM
To: The Adult English Language Learners Discussion List
Subject: RE: [EnglishLanguage 3347] Re: FW: Re: managing
programsforadultEnglishlearners


As the "leader" of a very large Adult ESOL program,  I wear many hats
but more and more I find it difficult to get away from my "administrator
crown", which is the one I like the least.  I strongly believe that
programs improve and better service students if leaders are in the
class, in the centers and in the community facilating English literacy
opportunities and expanding our learning communities. Unfortunately,
many hours of my day are spent processing the right form, approving
purchase orders and attending meetings.  Is this typical of others in
similar positions?  How20have other achieved a balance short of putting
in 20 hours of work per day?

  

________________________________


From: englishlanguage-bounces at nifl.gov on behalf of Betsy Wong
Sent: Tue 1/13/2009 10:50 AM
To: 'The Adult English Language Learners Discussion List'
Subject: [EnglishLanguage 3347] Re: FW: Re: managing
programsforadultEnglishlearners

In keeping with the spirit of a chain dialogue, I wanted to highlight
something that Laurie said:

"What I find more important is recognizing really good teaching methods
and
resources available and providing opportunities to share those in your
program."

I think that this is a really important part of a program manager's
role,
and it gets back to the points that have been made about striving to be
a
visionary and achieving balance.

It also points to a solution to a dilemma that many of us face: In the
face
of shrunken resources, what can we offer teachers when salary increases
or
full-time positions are simply not on the table?

I think that pro fessional development opportunities can be something to
help
"sell" a program to a prospective teacher and help motivate (and retain)
current teachers. This can be through formal in-service meetings
responding
to teachers' stated needs or informal discussions or focus groups that
allow
teachers to share ideas and give input on program decisions.  

What do the rest of you think? Suggestions?

Betsy Lindeman Wong
Lead ESL Teacher
Alexandria Adult and Community Education

-----Original Message-----
From: englishlanguage-bounces at nifl.gov
[mailto:englishlanguage-bounces at nifl.gov]
<mailto:englishlanguage-bounces at nifl.gov%5D>  On Behalf Of Mangum,
Laurie (ACE)
Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2009 9:18 AM
To: englishlanguage at nifl.gov
Subject: [EnglishLanguage 3342] FW: Re: managing programs
foradultEnglishlearners

I wanted to respond to Brigitte's thought

"I think it would be very interesting to explore this last point a
little
bit more. We have already asked if we think that ESOL Program Managers
should ideally have ESOL classroom experience - but what do we think
about the need for an effective ESOL Program Manager to have been a
good, or really good teacher? Is this a necessary pre-requisite? And is
an effective ESOL Program manager's effectiveness derived from their
ongoing expertise as a classroom instructor? Is it20really possible for
an ESOL Program Manager to remain current and a model of good
instructional practice? If they don't, could they still be able to
manage and supervise other ESL instructors effectively?"


My name is Laurie Mangum, I manage the Family Literacy program under
Adult ESOL for Fairfax County Public Schools.  I had taught a
non-intensive ESOL class (first as a volunteer and then paid) before
taking on the responsibility to coordinate this program but I always
think of my professional background as a project manager.  I am often
frustrated by the idea in Education that good teachers make good
administrators.  I don't necessarily think being a really good teacher
is a pre-requisite to running a really good program.  What I find more
important is recognizing really good teaching methods and resources
available and providing opportunities to share those in your program.  I
see part of my job to be a consulting role and look for best practices
to share with my staff.  Managing the many facets of a program and being
adept at changing strategies when something isn't working are also
instrumental to being successful in the role.  Or as some people have
described my job: having the ability to juggle while herding cats. 



Laurie Mangum
Family Literacy Specialist/Adult ESOL
Fairfax County Public Schools
Adult & Community Education
P lum Center for Lifelong Learning
6815 Edsall Rd.
Springfield, VA 22151

Phone:  703-658-2760 
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