Return-Path: <nifl-esl@literacy.nifl.gov> Received: from literacy (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by literacy.nifl.gov (8.10.2/8.10.2) with SMTP id h88CGJ717332; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 08:16:19 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 08:16:19 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <20030908121212.28866.qmail@web11003.mail.yahoo.com> Errors-To: listowner@literacy.nifl.gov Reply-To: nifl-esl@literacy.nifl.gov Originator: nifl-esl@literacy.nifl.gov Sender: nifl-esl@literacy.nifl.gov Precedence: bulk From: Ujwala Samant <lalumineuse@yahoo.com> To: Multiple recipients of list <nifl-esl@literacy.nifl.gov> Subject: [NIFL-ESL:9456] RE: Illiteracy X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0c -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Status: O Content-Length: 8421 Lines: 261 I am entering this debate rather late, but my son spoke French and Marathi with equal fluency, because we lived in Paris. By the time he was three, he had added Arabic to his collection of languages. Unfortunately when we arrived in the US, he lost his Arabic and some of his Marathi because I had to educate him in French and of course he learned English in the neighbourhood. He learned Arabic with the children in the neighbourhood, just as he does now with Hindi and Marathi when he goes to visit his grandparents in India. You would be amazed at the number of Arab children in France who speak and ae literate in Arabic and French, just as there are American children in France who are literate in both. In India we are raised with the assumption that you speak one language at home, possibly a second in school (unless you are being educated in your mother tongue), and a third on the streets. I started school at age 4 and yes I was reading, at age 5, we started Marathi in school as a subject, and at age 9 we had Sanskrit and French. I personally believe that it is the ingrained attitudes towards learning languages that really influence how language is taught and learned. I am not literate in all the languages I speak, but boy are they useful when travelling or negotiating new places or getting to know people. One of the best examples in language learning to me, is Switzerland where there are four official languages and I know that my cousins who live there speak three of the four, plus English. Maybe we should see what the Swiss have done and how they have done it! As regards reading, I think it depends on what age each country decides is "right" for their children. When we moved dto the US, our son was not quite 4 and he had had one year and a quarter o French kindergarten and knew his letters, numbers and a few words. In India, that is quite similar, as we start school at 2 and a half/three. regards Ujwala Samant Please excuse any faults in my post, I am using a French keyboard in a cybercafe! --- Varshna Narumanchi-Jackson <varshna@grandecom.net> wrote: > Susan, > > I beg to differ on a couple of points in your > response. > > A) I did not suggest you feel that language be > silenced. I would not have > posted it to the list if that were the case. > > B) Supporting bilingualism is a fantastic position > to take. Institutions, > however, lack the depth of your feeling for this > topic, so I doubt that > decision-makers will put muscle into any formal > "bilingual" policy. There > is sufficient evidence to show the exact opposite > occurs. Recall how easily > California changed course. > > C) Not to brag, but my 3-year-old knows the letters > of the alphabet by name > and is starting to form the letter-sound > associations necessary to start > reading. If I made a concerted effort to work with > him over the next year, > he will be reading. I'm sure there are plenty of > pre-school aged children > who are literate before they reach school. Ever > known a child who was > reading before kindergarten? I do. In my children's > elementary school, they > don't even teaching reading in kindergarten -- even > if a child is ready! > > Reading teachers did not invent the learning > process; they just make use of > our innate ability to learn. So, no, I don't agree > with you on this point. > Toddlers are literate. They know that there is a > relationship between > printed language, oral language, and ideas. They > know the golden arches > mean McDonalds. They know many things, and we don't > have to "teach" them any > of these things. Why else has Sesame Street been > teaching the alphabet and > phonics for the last 30-odd years? > > Culture and language are so intimately related that > it is hard to have a > discussion about "first," "second," "native," or > "non-native" without > examining the labels themselves. > > > on 9/5/03 5:47 PM, Susan Ryan at > susanefl@hotmail.com wrote: > > > I didn't suggest the "language be silenced". I > strongly support > > bilingualism. And I don't think most "toddlers" > are literate" in any > > language. > > Susan > > > > > >> From: Varshna Narumanchi-Jackson > <varshna@grandecom.net> > >> Reply-To: nifl-esl@nifl.gov > >> To: Multiple recipients of list > <nifl-esl@literacy.nifl.gov> > >> Subject: [NIFL-ESL:9425] RE: Illiteracy > >> Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 17:20:55 -0400 (EDT) > >> > >> Your point assumes that either the child or the > family wants English to be > >> the "first" language. What is so great about > having developed oracy in > >> your > >> "second"/"family" language when it isn't backed > up by literacy? > >> > >> Who wants to be an adult whose understanding of > her "second"/"family" > >> language stopped at age 3? How do you converse > with your parents, with > >> your > >> grandparents (as has been my experience), with > aunts, uncles, and other > >> relatives who are more comfortable speaking in > the "family" language? What > >> do you do as an adult with children of your own > when you can't pass on the > >> "family" language? How do they converse with the > older generations? > >> > >> How is culture preserved when the language in > which it was born is > >> silenced? > >> > >> > >> > >> on 9/5/03 12:51 PM, Susan Ryan at > susanefl@hotmail.com wrote: > >> > >>> The whole point is for a toddler age, English > would be his first > >> language! > >>> Although we have many languages spoken in the > U.S., English is the > >> defining > >>> language and children born into it should be > first language speakers in > >>> English. The other lanuage (family language > spoken) would be their > >> second > >>> language. They will be bilingual in reverse of > their parents' > >> generation. > >>> Susan > >>> > >>> > >>>> From: "kate.diggins" > <kate.diggins@slc.k12.ut.us> > >>>> Reply-To: nifl-esl@nifl.gov > >>>> To: Multiple recipients of list > <nifl-esl@literacy.nifl.gov> > >>>> Subject: [NIFL-ESL:9421] RE: Illiteracy > >>>> Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 13:02:04 -0400 (EDT) > >>>> > >>>> On the other hand, childen need a rich first > language. Without that, > >> there > >>>> would be a lack of cognitive "hooks", > metaphorically speaking, on which > >>>> to "hang" second language. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> ---------- Original Message ----------- > >>>> From: Gustav Kocsis <gkocsis@sfccnm.edu> > >>>> To: Multiple recipients of list > <nifl-esl@literacy.nifl.gov> > >>>> Sent: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 10:19:51 -0400 (EDT) > >>>> Subject: [NIFL-ESL:9418] RE: Illiteracy > >>>> > >>>>> I so much agree. > >>>>> > >>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>> From: Susan Ryan [mailto:susanefl@hotmail.com] > >>>>> Sent: Friday, September 05, 2003 8:02 AM > >>>>> To: Multiple recipients of list > >>>>> Subject: [NIFL-ESL:9417] RE: Illiteracy > >>>>> > >>>>> Sylvan, I found your information very > interesting and surprising. I > >>>> would > >>>>> have thought to start English with the > toddlers class would be the > >>>>> best way to create English fluency rather than > waiitng until they > >>>>> start school and come to it as a foreign > language speaker. Susan > >>>>> > >>>>>> From: "Sylvan Rainwater" <sylvan@cccchs.org> > >>>>>> Reply-To: nifl-esl@nifl.gov > >>>>>> To: Multiple recipients of list > <nifl-esl@literacy.nifl.gov> > >>>>>> Subject: [NIFL-ESL:9401] RE: Illiteracy > >>>>>> Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 15:34:43 -0400 (EDT) > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Thanks for this excellent post. It is > certainly true that when > >> children > >>>>>> don't get good early education, they are at a > disadvantage, > >> regardless > >>>> of > >>>>>> what language they are trying to learn in. In > the Head Start program > >> I > >>>> work > >>>>>> with, it's sometimes interesting to compare > the immigrant kids with > >> the > >>>>>> Anglo kids here. The problems we are > addressing are somewhat > >> different, > >>>> but > >>>>>> with all kids (and the adults in our Family > Literacy Program), we > >> focus > >>>> on > >>>>>> literacy in developmentally appropriate ways. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> With the Pre-K children we work with, > language development needs to > >> be > >>>>>> primarily in the native language, gradually > transitioning to more > >>>> English > === message truncated === __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
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