NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 1 FEDERAL COMMUNICATIONS COMMISSION + + + + + CONSUMER ADVISORY COMMITTEE MEETING + + + + + FRIDAY, JUNE 18, 2004 + + + + + The above entitled meeting commenced at 9:00 a.m. in Room TW-C305 of the Federal Communications Commission, 445 12th Street S.W., Washington, DC, Shirley L. Rooker, CAC Chairperson, presiding. PANELISTS: PANEL 1- Update on Truth in Billing Issues: JOY RAGSDALE, Moderator, Chair, Consumer Complaints Outreach, Education, and Participation Working Group MICHAEL ALTSCHUL, Presenter, Senior Vice President and General Counsel, Cellular Telecommunications and Internet Association COMMISSIONER JOSEPH CURRAN, III, Presenter, Maryland Public Service Commission (representing NARUC) PATRICK W. PEARLMAN, Presenter, Deputy Consumer Advocate, West Virginia Public Service Commission, (representing NASUCA) ROBIN TUTTLE, Presenter, Associate Counsel, United States Telecom Association PANEL 2- Update on Homeland Security Issues: MIKE DUKE, Moderator, Chair, Homeland Security Working Group JOSEPH GORDON, Presenter, League for the Hard of Hearing BRENDA KELLY-FREY, Presenter, National Association of State Relay Administration CLAUDE STOUT, Presenter, Deaf and Hard of Hearing Consumer Action Network PROGRESS REPORT- Broadband Working Group: NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 2 DAVID BRUGGER, Member, Broadband Working Group, Brugger Consulting ALSO PRESENT: SHIRLEY ROOKER, Call for Action, CAC Chairperson THOMAS ALLIBONE, LTC Consulting and Teletruth CHRIS BAKER, AARP ANN BERKOWOTZ, Verizon DEBRA BERLYN, Consumer Policy Consultant ANN BOBECK, NAB DIANE BURSTEIN, National Cable Telecommunications ANNETTE CLECKNER, MCI CINDY COX, Bell South MICHAEL DelCASINO, AT&T Corporation MIKE DUKE SUSAN GRANT, National Consumers League CARL HILLIARD, Consumer First, Inc. DAVID HOROWITZ, Fight Back Foundation for Consumer Education SCOTT MARSHALL, CAC Designated Federal Officer SUSAN PALMER-MAZRUI, Cingular Wireless DAVID POEHLMAN MARK PRANGER K. DANE SNOWDEN, Chief, CGB DONALD SNOOP, Hometown Online BYRON ST. CLAIR, National Translator Association LINDA WEST ROBERT WENGER, Telecommunications Industry Association ANDREA WILLIAMS, Cellular Telecommunications & Internet Association NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 3 I-N-D-E-X Welcome and Call to Order.......................... 4 Meeting Logistics.................................. 8 FCC Update........................................ 10 Update on Homeland Security Issues................ 35 Truth in Billing Issues........................... 46 Update on Homeland Security Issues............... 108 Public Safety.................................... 115 Discussion....................................... 123 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 4 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S1 9:04 a.m.2 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Welcome. It's nice 3 to see everyone. We're having some weather issues 4 this morning. Larry Goldberg, who was supposed to do 5 a presentation for us this morning on broadband, 6 accessibility of broadband content, unfortunately is 7 not going to make it out of Boston, so we're going to 8 make some changes to the agenda somewhat. Instead of 9 Larry presenting this morning, we're going to do part 10 of the homeland security presentation this morning. 11 Mike Duke will give us kind of an overview of some of 12 the issues, and then they will continue after lunch, 13 as scheduled, after the truth in billing panel.14 In addition to that, Rebecca Ladew, 15 unfortunately has broken her arm and is not going to 16 be with us this morning. Sprint, very graciously, 17 agreed to pick up her costs for this meeting, and that 18 will be transferred to the November meeting. So we're 19 going to send a card, I think, to Rebecca, and I'm 20 going to send her an e-mail, as well. Yes, I think we 21 have a card. We're going to pass a card around.22 And I'm also going to pass around right 23 now a list. I'd like everyone to sign the list, 24 please, if you would. Just a few reminders. Be sure 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 5 that when you want to speak, this is not because you 1 have to get permission from me, but I want you to 2 raise your hand so that the people in the control 3 booth can turn on your microphone. And then if you 4 would just give them a minute, just a little bit of 5 time to do that, and then state your name before you 6 speak. That will help us in doing the transcript, so 7 we'd appreciate that.8 I'd like to thank some of our panel 9 participants. Verizon and AT&T, who, very generously, 10 have donated teleconferencing services to some of our 11 working groups, and Cingular for our excellent food 12 this morning. Yes, Mike Duke says the chocolate ones, 13 the chocolate-chocolate are wonderful. At any rate, 14 thank them. Also, to thank our working groups. I 15 have been so impressed with all that's been going on, 16 with the energy level and the ideas and the creativity 17 that's coming out of this panel, out of this committee 18 and out of the working groups I think has just been 19 very wonderful.20 At any rate, so lots of things have been 21 going on. Be sure, as I said, sign the form. Dixie 22 Ziegler is going to be on the phone. Is Dixie with us 23 yet? Not yet. Okay. She'll be calling us.24 At any rate, that's kind of some of the 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 6 things. Before I turn it over to Scott for our 1 logistics and meeting places and all that sort of 2 stuff, I would like for us to go around the room and 3 just tell who you are and what organization you 4 represent because we do have a number of alternates 5 here today.6 Susan Mazrui is coming, but unfortunately 7 her cab was late. So transportation is an issue for a 8 lot of people this morning. So we'll just start down 9 at this end with David.10 MR. BRUGGER: David Brugger, Brugger 11 Consulting.12 MS. RAGSDALE: Good morning. Joy 13 Ragsdale, NASUCA.14 MR. BAKER: Good morning. Chris Baker 15 with AARP.16 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: And I am Shirley 17 Rooker with Call For Action. Scott?18 MR. MARSHALL: And I'm Scott Marshall with 19 FCC.20 MR. DUKE: I'm Mike Duke, International 21 Association of Audio Information Services and Radio 22 Amateurs.23 MR. POEHLMAN: Morning. I'm David 24 Poehlman, and I plant apple seeds. And other than 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 7 that, I'm with the American Council of the Blind.1 MS. GRANT: Hi. Susan Grant with the 2 National Consumers League.3 MR. HOROWITZ: Morning. I'm David 4 Horowitz with the Fight Back Foundation for Consumer 5 Education.6 MS. WILLIAMS: Andrea Williams with CTIA, 7 the Wireless Association.8 MR. GORDON: Good morning. Joe Gordon, 9 League for the Hard of Hearing.10 MS. BOBECK: Hi. I'm Ann Bobeck from the 11 National Association of Broadcasters.12 MS. BERLYN: Debra Berlyn, Consumer Policy 13 Consulting.14 MR. SNOOP: I'm Don Snoop with Hometown 15 Online.16 MR. ALLIBONE: Tom Allibone with LTC 17 Consulting and Teletruth.18 MS. WEST: Linda West, Native American and 19 Rural America Issues.20 MR. PRANGER: Mark Pranger, Academic 21 Issues.22 MR. DELCASINO: Mike Delcasino, AT&T.23 MR. HILLIARD: Carl Hilliard, Wireless 24 Consumers Alliance.25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 8 MR. WENGER: Robert Wenger from Panasonic.1 MS. BERKOWOTZ: Ann Berkowotz, Verizon.2 MS. COX: Cindy Cox, Bell South.3 MS. KELLY-FREY: Brenda Kelly-Frey, 4 National Association of Relay Administrators.5 MS. CLECKNER: Annette Cleckner, MCI.6 MR. ST. CLAIR: Byron St. Clair, National 7 Translators Association. And just so we don't confuse 8 people, we do re-broadcasting television and FM 9 signals in remote areas, no language translation.10 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Thank you all for 11 being here. For the alternates, we welcome you. I 12 hope you'll find this an interesting and stimulating 13 day. Okay. The other order of business, I think, is 14 to turn this over to Scott, who will give us the 15 logistics on our meeting today.16 MR. MARSHALL: Good morning, everyone. 17 Very importantly, for our new folks today, the 18 restrooms are right out the door to my right, down a 19 short corridor to your left, both mens and ladies 20 rooms. If you keep going straight down that corridor, 21 that is where three of the four working groups will be 22 meeting. The homeland security broadband and consumer 23 complaints and education groups will be meeting along 24 that corridor, and there is signage to direct you to 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 9 the appropriate rooms.1 Please let us know, as you've heard me 2 talk about in the past, we do have an interference 3 issue with having too many assistive listening devices 4 too close together. There's a much more fancy 5 technical explanation, but that's all I understand. 6 And I need to know if anyone in the breakout rooms 7 will be needing an assistive listening device. We can 8 have two of them going with two rooms equipped at 9 once, and we just need to know this information so we 10 can set that equipment up.11 Anybody who will be needing an assistive 12 listening device in one of the breakout rooms? Not 13 here, not in the CMR, but in the other rooms? Yes, 14 Joe?15 MR. GORDON: I'm raising my hand, Scott.16 MR. MARSHALL: All right. Which one, Joe?17 MR. GORDON: The homeland security.18 MR. MARSHALL: Homeland. Okay.19 MR. GORDON: Thank you.20 MR. MARSHALL: All right. Jeff, homeland 21 security then for the assistive listening device. 22 And, also, in connection with all of that, please, you 23 know, when you're in your breakout groups, including 24 when you're in this room, if you could please speak 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 10 into the microphones during the breakouts. Not only 1 will that allow us to get a CART transcript of what's 2 being said for those who need it right now in real-3 time, it will allow us to provide the working group 4 chairs with an actual transcript of your breakout 5 session, which you can use for further work as you go 6 about developing your recommendations and so forth.7 So I think that's it. And if I think of 8 anything else, I'll let Shirley know, and we'll talk 9 to you a little later. Thank you.10 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Okay. Does anyone 11 here have any questions or concerns that they want to 12 talk about? All right. If not, then we are going to 13 have, I believe, Commissioner Copps is going to be 14 with us this morning, and Adelstein will be with us 15 this afternoon. That's the way it looks right now.16 And I think then what we'll do is move on 17 to hear from Dane Snowden, who is Chief of the 18 Consumer and Governmental Affairs Bureau. And for the 19 alternates, just to let you know that Dane is our 20 biggest supporter and has been at, I think, every 21 meeting, except one when he had to attend to a loss in 22 his family. So Dane, welcome, good to have you here.23 MR. SNOWDEN: Thank you very much, 24 Shirley. Commissioner Copps, unfortunately, will not, 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 11 we just found out last night, will not be able to make 1 it. I'm not sure if he's having travel issues, as 2 well, but Commissioner Adelstein will be down later 3 this afternoon, we believe, provided there are no ?-4 he's flying in from what I understand, so hopefully 5 he'll get in, as well.6 When I heard you talk about Larry's 7 troubles, it reminded me once when I was in Boston. I8 went to Boston for an overnight stay in the middle of 9 February, and I think it was '96, so we had the 10 blizzard of '96, and I was there for seven days. I 11 didn't have a change of clothes for seven days. I was 12 stuck in a hotel. It was 40-below outside. I didn't 13 know it could actually get to 40-below, but it did. 14 But I can't complain. We were staying at the Marriott 15 Copley Center. If anyone's been to Boston, it's a 16 very nice place connected to a mall, so I saw every 17 single movie that that theater showed twice, not just 18 once, twice. So I can relate to the weather issues.19 And this is a fun time in Washington where 20 those of you who have hair, unlike myself, you will 21 get a lot of frizzy hair right now because of the 22 humidity going on.23 I wanted to share with you some of the 24 things that are going on here, but, also, I wanted to 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 12 pass on our best wishes to Rebecca for her injury, and 1 we will, of course, send our best wishes, as well, and 2 wish her a speedy recovery. And I also wanted to echo 3 something that Shirley said. As Scott gives me 4 regular updates of what's going on with the committee, 5 it seems to me that the working groups are working 6 exactly how we had envisioned them to come into being. 7 And so I want to thank you all for the time that you 8 all spend that you're not here in this building and on 9 your own time working on the various issues. So thank 10 you for that, and I know we're very excited for some 11 of the things that are coming out of the various 12 working groups.13 Let me give you an update on some things 14 that have been coming through from our perspective. As 15 some of you know, and I know it's on your agenda to 16 discuss in more detail, we did receive a petition for 17 declaratory ruling from NASUCA on some truth in 18 billing issues, and we're going to, of course, you're 19 all going to look at that, we're going to look at 20 that. I think we just got a petition in, the oral 21 request in the other day to extend the reply comments 22 where the Commission is currently evaluating that now, 23 and we should have something out very shortly. But we 24 encourage you all to have a healthy debate on that 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 13 particular issue. It is very helpful to us, as we 1 move forward. The truth in billing issues are always, 2 of course, very key to many of the things we do to 3 make sure consumers are in the loop.4 Also, notice from your agenda that you're 5 talking about homeland security issues. And I think I 6 may have announced before, Chairman Powell has 7 announced that, he's not only announced, he's actually 8 implemented, we have an Office of Homeland Security 9 now in the Commission, in addition to our Homeland 10 Security Policy Council. The differences between the 11 two are, one, the Homeland Security Policy Council is 12 made up of senior members of every office in every 13 bureau. One of my deputies serves for me on that 14 policy council, and we discuss all homeland security 15 matters. And, of course, the Office of Homeland 16 Security is based in our enforcement bureau, and they 17 deal with the day-to-day activities of the agency's 18 homeland security affairs.19 I know we, as a commission, have been 20 concentrating heavily on homeland security issues, 21 most notably our March 25th emergency communication 22 homeland security, working with this to build a 23 community summit that we had. It was very successful, 24 and it would not have been successful without members 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 14 from CAC, so I thank many of you who participated in 1 that, not only in the planning but also who 2 participated in the activities of that particular day.3 We also had a June 2nd Media Security 4 Reliability Council, or MSRC, as we call it, meeting 5 just a few weeks ago addressing homeland security 6 issues, looking at some captioning issues, and things 7 of that nature. As we all know, it's going to take 8 everyone inside this agency and outside this agency, 9 all of us working together to work on various homeland 10 security issues.11 In terms of some of the positive things 12 that have been going on, I think, most notably for 13 this body here, the telecommunications relay services, 14 or the TRS item, we call it the mega item, that we 15 just got ordered. I guess it wasn't released yet 16 because we're still under sunshine, so I'm very 17 limited on what I can say about it. But in order that 18 you all, I know, participated in and gave us some good 19 comments and thoughts on various things that we should 20 do, and I appreciate that.21 One of the things that we do plan to do is 22 to embark on an outreach campaign about 23 telecommunications relay services. That is one of the 24 things in the item that I can talk about, in terms of 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 15 that we're going to do it. So that is coming down the 1 pike.2 In terms of the item itself, the release 3 of the item is imminent, so the sunshine has not been 4 lifted yet, meaning, for some of you who are 5 alternates and may not be familiar with some of the 6 terms I'm using, we are barred from speaking publicly 7 about items until they are officially law. And it's 8 on its way of doing that. My staff is working on the 9 final edits of that particular item with the various 10 offices upstairs.11 So we are moving forward, but one of the 12 things in particular we will move forward on that I 13 can share with you is that we will definitely have an 14 outreach strategy put in place to focus on the TRS 15 issues.16 Speaking of outreach, as some of you know, 17 we have been traveling, I can't say that I was part of 18 it, but I've been to a couple of them, but many 19 members of the Commission staff have been traveling 20 around the country looking at localism issues, the 21 localism hearings that we're calling them. We held 22 one recently in South Dakota. In conjunction with the 23 South Dakota localism hearing, we also held our Indian 24 Telecommunications Initiative, or our ITI, Rapid City 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 16 roundtable and workshop, which was very successful. We 1 will continue to reach out to tribal lands, as we 2 afford. In fact, many members of my staff are getting 3 back today from visiting with the Navajo tribe out in 4 Albuquerque for their big meeting.5 And what we're doing, as we've explained 6 before, is trying to bring basic services and advanced 7 services to tribal lands and also throughout rural 8 communities throughout the country. We will also be 9 working, we are going to embark on a trip next week to 10 Tennessee to work with the Appalachian Regional 11 Commission, or ARC, on various issues, particularly 12 broadband issues. We want to make sure that broadband 13 gets out to all parts of our communities, not just the 14 urban areas but the rural areas, as well.15 And in terms of our future outreach policy 16 and outreach goals and ideas, on the horizon, we are 17 going to be looking at digital television, the V chip, 18 broadband, and when I say broadband I mean 19 specifically as it relates to VOIP, and, of course, as 20 I mentioned earlier, TRS.21 In terms of D-TV, I think you all have 22 talked about this some in your previous meetings. I 23 would encourage this body to continue to look at the 24 digital television transition that will take place in 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 17 January 1st, 2007. It seems like a long way away. It 1 is not. People value, as we all know, I think, their 2 televisions and their telephones more than they value 3 anything else. They can have no air conditioning, but 4 as long as they have a television, they're happy. And 5 so this will be an issue coming down the pike, and we 6 encourage you all to look into it, as well. I, of 7 course, cannot direct this body to do that, but I can 8 strongly encourage.9 Another issue, as I mentioned a moment 10 ago, in terms of our outreach is VOIP. We held a 11 solutions summit on disabilities issues last May 7th, 12 which was a follow-on to our 911 Solution Summit. We 13 will continue to do these ideas, the solutions 14 summits, as time rolls on, so that we can gather as 15 much information for the record as we roll out this 16 new technology of internet, IP-enabled services. It's 17 new and advancing. It's excited. We're thrilled 18 about it, but we want to make sure we don't forget the 19 social obligations that we have, be it disabilities 20 issues, be it 911 issues, be it law enforcement and 21 CALEA issues, as we go forward.22 And, of course, I would be remiss if I did 23 not mention local number portability, which took 24 effect nationwide May 24th. When I say nationwide, we 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 18 insisted, and the law went into effect. The remaining 1 parts of the country that did not go into effect 2 November 24th would have local number portability come 3 May 24th.4 Right now, since November 24th, we've seen 5 over three million consumers port their telephone 6 numbers. I'm sure Andrea probably has the latest 7 facts, and she can answer any questions on this issue 8 probably better than I can from the wireless 9 industries' point of view. But it is going as we had 10 anticipated. There were some glitches, there were 11 some hiccups, but the long and short of it is it's 12 going in the right direction, and we're thrilled about 13 it.14 One of the issues that did come out of the 15 LNP debate is various states have waivers before them 16 right now, basically from smaller carriers, asking not 17 to have to port telephone numbers for a little while. 18 And our position on it is that we want consumers to 19 have the freedom, we want consumers to have the 20 choice. I have sent a letter to the president of the 21 National Association of State Regulatory Utility 22 Commissioners, NARUC, reiterating our point. They are 23 in their domain to make the jurisdictional decisions 24 on what they want to do with the waivers. It's not 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 19 before us, our commission, but it's before the various 1 state commissions. I believe about 600 waivers that 2 are out there right now.3 It is our position that we do want to make 4 sure that the law is followed, and the consumers can 5 have a choice in these matters as we go forward. So 6 the jury is still out on that, and the state 7 commissions are working through it, and we're working 8 hand-in-hand with the state commissions as they debate 9 some of these issues internally among the states.10 With that, I'll be happy to answer any 11 questions you all might have. And I see one over here 12 to my right. David?13 MR. POEHLMAN: Oh, goody, I get to go 14 first. Dave Poehlman with the American Council of the 15 Blind. Dane, thank you for the update. It's very 16 interesting, and I see that things have been very 17 busy, and they're going to continue to be busy for 18 quite some time to come. I had the opportunity, 19 luckily, to observe the entire proceeding of the VOIP 20 Summit or SOIP Summit, as it later became to be 21 called, and I noticed that you mentioned VOIP as being 22 on your agenda and as a follow-through and activity 23 involvement. Would it be more appropriate to actually 24 designate this process as service over IP, considering 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 20 the summit and also considering the activity that's 1 going on in the area? And I only mention that because 2 there are going to be some issues that are going to be 3 combinative, such as video and voice-over IP in 4 combination, various other, you know, types of things 5 that are going to be delivered as an OIP kind of 6 process. Those will be issues that will be carried 7 forward. That was sort of a side-long question.8 MR. SNOWDEN: I think it's a very good 9 question, and I'm probably remiss in calling it VOIP. 10 We're trying to start calling it IP-enabled services 11 because, to your point, you're exactly right. There 12 are many things that are going over the internet, not 13 just voice. There's voice, data, and so I agree with 14 you. It should be called IP-enabled services, and 15 that is what the Commission is ?- and another thing, 16 the general nomenclature is beginning to develop 17 around this as IP-enabled services.18 I saw a question over here?19 MR. SNOOP: Am I on?20 MR. SNOWDEN: Yes.21 MR. SNOOP: One of the questions I've got 22 is on the digital TV transition. Being in the video 23 business for a number of years, I'm very familiar with 24 the transition that took place from black and white to 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 21 color. Different situation because of the fact that a 1 color set could also receive the black and white 2 signals. Once we shut off the over-air analog 3 signals, somebody with an older TV set is going to be 4 forced to either have a new digital TV or some form of 5 digital TV tuner box. What's your thought on the 6 transition for those people that are not the early 7 adapters and don't want to adapt at all?8 MR. SNOWDEN: That is one of the reasons 9 why we are starting, we the Commission are starting 10 now in 2004 to look at these particular issues and 11 reaching out to various consumers. Right now, 80 12 percent of Americans receive their television through 13 cable, it's 80 and growing, so when you look at it, 14 you're looking at 20 percent that we need to look at, 15 particularly those that are seniors. And so we need 16 to work with our colleagues over at AARP to get some 17 guidance from them as we move forward. And it's also 18 more and more shows are becoming, having digital 19 programming in place, and I think more and more people 20 are beginning to enjoy it.21 We are under congressional mandate. This 22 has to happen. And so we're looking at it from two 23 points of view. One, we have to fulfill Congress' 24 wishes; and, two, we have to make sure that, as we do 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 22 that, we bring people along. And, again, any guidance 1 this body can bring to us, the Commission, will be 2 greatly welcome. We do plan to embark on an 3 aggressive outreach strategy for digital television. 4 We know the set boxes right now are a little bit 5 expensive, as our the televisions. But as the kinds 6 of scale begin to take effect, those prices will begin 7 to come down as more and more people either sign up 8 for cable or just buy the television outright and can 9 do that.10 It is a debate. One of the things that we11 are, in our media bureau, who's tracking this more 12 closely than I am, they are looking at the cut-off, 13 the cut rates. When do we cut, where do we cut? Will 14 it be a national cut? Which it, most likely, will not 15 be. So we're looking at various issues regarding the 16 question you just raised.17 MR. SNOOP: I've got a follow-up question, 18 also, because it probably ties in to what Ann is going 19 to be asking about, dual must-carry. Do you see that 20 as becoming an issue, where you'll have to be able to 21 carry both the analog and digital signal?22 MR. SNOWDEN: I'm going to pass on that 23 one and leave it to my colleagues in the media bureau. 24 Susan?25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 23 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: I think Susan. Susan 1 and then David. And Ann, was your question a follow-2 up?3 MS. BOBECK: Actually, just a follow-up 4 that there is a current proceeding for the Commission 5 and a public notice inquiry asking who, and the magic 6 number is the last 15 percent that aren't hooked up 7 via cable or satellite, who are those people, and it's 8 a broad question because, quite frankly, the data is 9 not very good out there right now, and the Commission 10 is asking who are the last 15 percent and how do we 11 get them moving along in the transition and make sure 12 that they're not left behind. So I encourage you to 13 watch that proceeding. And if you have any 14 information, especially on who the people are with 15 respect to disability consumers, please chime in. I 16 think this is the most appropriate time for that.17 MR. SNOWDEN: I would actually add to Ann. 18 Not only watch it but comment on it.19 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Oh, that's an 20 excellent suggestion. I like the idea of the 21 committee becoming involved in this issue. Susan?22 MS. GRANT: Thank you. Getting back to 23 VOIP or IP-enabled services or whatever we want to 24 call it --25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 24 MR. SNOWDEN: I got us off on the wrong 1 track.2 MS. GRANT: That's right. I just want to 3 take this opportunity to announce that the National 4 Consumers League hopes to have a one-day forum on the 5 issue in early September, looking at it from the 6 consumer perspective. We'll be reaching out to the 7 FCC for their involvement as speakers and participants 8 and also to the other members of the council. If 9 anyone is interested in learning more about that, 10 please don't hesitate to talk to me. Thanks.11 MR. SNOWDEN: Thanks, Susan. We look 12 forward to it.13 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: I think David was 14 next.15 MR. HOROWITZ: David Horowitz from the 16 Fight Back Foundation for Consumer Education. One of 17 the things that's come up is we've been getting a lot 18 of complaints about phone number portability. In 19 fact, I've had some complaints about it. And that is 20 that the companies that are doing this are not really 21 giving you any specific time where this portability 22 will turn over. In other words, it took me seven days 23 to get from one cell phone company to the other. For 24 those seven days, I had no, I had absolutely no use of 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 25 one cell phone and, of course, my other one didn't 1 work either. After that was done, the phone that was 2 given to me and the portability took place, I was 3 given a 30-day guarantee, and I'm bringing this up for 4 a reason because I think it's something that we have 5 to look at, and I had to bring the phone back because 6 it wasn't working, and they refused to give me back my 7 number until the bill was paid, which shouldn't have 8 been assessed against me because it was part of the 9 guarantee. And it took almost a month to get my phone 10 number back. And what they were using is, basically, 11 holding us hostage because there was a difference of 12 opinion about what was happening with the bill that 13 was due, and they were using the portability as, 14 basically, a way to say, "You either pay up, or we 15 don't give you back your phone number."16 Now, I work with Susan Mazrui on this case 17 since it was her company that did this, and we 18 straightened it out. But what I find is more and more 19 complaints about how much time, David, should it take 20 for us to get our number changed? How much time 21 should it get before we get our number back? Can they 22 hold us and not give us our number back because of 23 financial issues? Well, we found out through the 24 Commission that it is against Commission regulations 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 26 to do this, but how are we going to let the public 1 know, first of all, the amount of time that's decent, 2 or I don't want to say legal because you can't legally 3 do it, but decent to change over from one number to 4 another and what can they do about not returning your 5 number to you if, in fact, there's a billing 6 complaint?7 MR. SNOWDEN: A couple of things. I would 8 imagine, and I'm going on a lark here, you probably 9 ported your number shortly after November or began to 10 port your number?11 MR. HOROWITZ: No, this was after the 12 first of the year.13 MR. SNOWDEN: Exactly. So November, 14 December, January.15 MR. HOROWITZ: Right.16 MR. SNOWDEN: The industry was having some 17 challenges. That's when we noticed the biggest bulk 18 of delays in porting telephone numbers. They have 19 significantly improved that to where it was before. It 20 was two or three days, on average, of porting 21 telephone numbers. Now it's down to about two hours, 22 which is what the industry said it would be when they 23 thought they could do it on November 24th. So the 24 industry has worked to get that down. I don't speak 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 27 for the industry, of course. There are many members 1 here who could probably articulate better than I can 2 or probably want to on this particular issue, as well.3 But while I have the floor, one of the issues that we 4 have raised with the industry when this was going on, 5 we also met with the wireless industry regularly 6 during those months. At one point, we were on 7 conference calls with them every single week going 8 over this: what are the problems, why can't this get 9 done faster? And it's gotten done faster.10 What we've seen in the next wave, the May 11 24th deadline, is not the same issues that we saw and 12 to the same degree that we saw the November deadline, 13 which is why we separated the two. We wanted the 14 higher markets to do it first, so the rural markets 15 can learn from what we learned in the top 100 MSAs.16 What I would encourage you to do and 17 others to do, and to answer your question of what do 18 you do, is to file a complaint with the FCC. If 19 there's a question about your bill, I have a wonderful 20 group of individuals who do nothing but answer those 21 complaints, and they call the Cingulars, the AT&Ts, 22 the MCIs, the wireless industry, the box, etcetera, to 23 work through these various issues.24 Martha Contee, Martha raise your hand for 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 28 a second. Martha Contee of my staff, who actually 1 happens to be down here, she is the individual who 2 runs that division for me, and they do a very good 3 job. We handle over a million calls a year with 4 complaints.5 MR. HOROWITZ: But, you know, I think it's 6 also important to post this on our web site.7 MR. SNOWDEN: Well, we have posted it, 8 David. We have posted all this information. We have 9 actually released our complaint numbers and the 10 trends. For six months we did that, up until May 11 24th, explaining what the delays were. I know 12 Chairman Powell himself did an entire media tour on 13 this particular issue, on the local number portability 14 particular issue, what are some of the challenges that 15 we saw down the road. I've done several media 16 interviews. The wireless industry has done many, 17 they've reached out to the media, as well, on these 18 particular matters. And we've received complaints, so 19 people do know to call our 1-877-CALL-FCC number.20 MR. HOROWITZ: And I'm aware of that, but 21 my concern here is that when these phones are sold, 22 when these phones are sold from the representatives of 23 the company, that they give you false dates, they give 24 you false information. And to tell someone that you 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 29 can't get your number back until you take care of your 1 bill and then we'll take care of the number after we 2 clear your bill is clearly what I consider to be, it's 3 against the regulations, one; and, two, the companies 4 should be able to be aware of the fact, which we can 5 discuss, that the people who are selling these phones 6 should be letting people know what the proper 7 information is and not trying to use scare tactics in 8 order to prevent them from getting back their number 9 until bill disputes are settled.10 MR. SNOWDEN: Well, I don't think anybody 11 would disagree with you.12 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Andrea, you wanted to 13 respond to that, I believe.14 MS. WILLIAMS: This is Andrea Williams 15 from CTIA. In terms of wireless local number 16 portability, yes, we did have some significant 17 challenges and glitches when we first started, and I'm 18 glad to say that we are now down to a level where, as 19 Dane mentioned, two hours. Some cases may go longer 20 than that. It has been a very trying experience, 21 shall we say, but we're going to get through this. 22 What the industry has been doing is we even have an 23 acceleration in terms of, if there is a problem, 24 you're talking about, you know, inter-carrier 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 30 cooperation between wireless-to-wireless. We've got 1 that pretty much under control. We're still having 2 little problems with wireline to wireless porting.3 What we have done is set up what I call a 4 sort of crisis situation, working with the FCC, for 5 example, and we worked very closely with Martha. When 6 complaints come in, I think, as Martha has often told 7 me, you'll find that, in terms of wireless carriers, 8 we generally will resolve those complaints within 30 9 days, in terms of turnaround. There are some that go 10 longer, but very few.11 Now, in terms of the billing issues, yes, 12 we realize that there were going to be some billing 13 issues because of the fall-out from LNP. And the way 14 it's being timed, billing doesn't hit until almost 60 15 in some cases and maybe 90 days. So now we're seeing 16 implementation of the LNP, and now we're seeing the 17 other half of this, what I call the phase-two of the 18 billing issues. And it's going to take some time, I 19 know, to work those things through.20 You know, David, people who know me, I 21 always say, you know, "We're going to get there." 22 Yes, there are going to be some challenges along the 23 way, but the only thing we can ask you is to please, 24 you know, the best thing that consumers can do is to 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 31 contact their carrier. If you're still having 1 problems escalating within that company, even when you 2 file a complaint with the FCC, Martha picks up the 3 phone and calls immediately. She doesn't even wait. 4 Well, some of my members call Martha, and they don't 5 wait until they get the complaint. We have that type 6 of relationship because the goal here is we want those 7 subscribers, particularly the ones coming from 8 wireline to wireless.9 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: I think what we're 10 hearing here is an issue that is dwindling, and we're 11 seeing the end of it. That's great. Joe, I think you 12 were next.13 MR. GORDON: Larry Goldberg is not here, 14 and I have a feeling he would ask a question about 15 digital TV. There have been many complaints to me by 16 consumers and I believe to the captioning companies 17 that digital TV lacks in providing closed captioning, 18 as opposed to analog TV, which has been doing it for 19 many years. There have been many complaints filed, I 20 believe, and 2007 is right around the corner, as 21 you're saying. Would it be possible for the 22 Commission to send out a reminder? Is that something 23 that you do to the cable TV companies, making sure 24 that they have digital TV provide closed captioning 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 32 similar to the way they do it in analog? Because 1 another deadline is coming, January 1st, 2006, when 2 all new TV programs should be closed caption, both 3 analog and digital. Thank you.4 MR. SNOWDEN: I think it's a great 5 question. We just sent out a notice reminding everyone 6 of the rules. I want to say it was two weeks ago or 7 three weeks ago. I'm looking at my legal advisor. 8 Three weeks ago on that, and we will periodically do 9 that as time moves on.10 MR. GORDON: Is that notice on the web 11 site? Would I be able to find it?12 MR. SNOWDEN: It should be. If it's not, 13 we'll make sure you guys get a copy.14 MR. GORDON: Thank you.15 MS. BOBECK: Just a quick follow-up. 16 Industry is aware that there are some technical 17 glitches, especially when it comes to live HD feeds 18 and digital closed captioning. I just literally got 19 three phone calls last week saying, "My equipment is 20 having problems, and my manufacturer can't commit to a 21 six-month or even a six-day fix." So I do know that 22 there are technical issues out there because we 23 format, in digital television there are multiple24 formats, whether standard, enhanced, or high 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 33 definition. So it's been brought to our attention 1 recently, and rest assured we'll start to work with 2 industry to solve those problems.3 MR. GORDON: Is that why Scott put us both 4 next to each other?5 (Laughter.)6 MR. SNOWDEN: I'm starting to notice Scott 7 did a great job with the pairing, as well. Actually, 8 you're between that industry right now.9 MS. BERLYN: Debra Berlyn, Consumer Policy 10 Consulting. I didn't want to let this morning go by 11 without at least one mentioning an issue that's been 12 in the headlines quite a bit lately, and that's the DC 13 Circuit Court's decision on local competition.14 MR. SNOWDEN: Thought I could get out of 15 here without that.16 (Laughter.)17 MS. BERLYN: Now that the FCC's rules have 18 been rejected by the court and it looks like that's 19 going to stand, can you give us some insight as to 20 what the process will be at the FCC for writing new 21 rules?22 MR. SNOWDEN: You know, I debated if I 23 wanted to talk about this at all, and the better part 24 of me said, "Why would you ever want to talk about the 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 34 TRO?" To answer your question, let me first say that 1 it is our top priority, and the Chairman has said this 2 repeatedly, to ensure that consumers do not experience 3 any disruption whatsoever in their service, and so we 4 are working, that's our bright line, as we go forward.5 What we are in the process of promptly 6 trying to write the rules now. As some of you who may 7 not be following the TRO as closely as many of us here 8 at the Commission, when the Solicitor General decided 9 not to appeal the DC Circuit's decision, a lot of 10 things have to take place, and we are working very 11 quickly to get things up and running. This is a 12 collective effort by everybody at the Commission. The 13 Eighth Floor is extremely busy working on these 14 various issues, as are my colleagues in the wireline 15 competition bureau. So I will leave it at that. This 16 is a matter before another bureau, but our goal, as I 17 said before, in terms of our priorities, is to ensure 18 that consumers are not experiencing disruption, and we 19 believe that will be the case. It all comes down to, 20 in our eyes, the Commission's eyes, we want to make 21 sure there's fair and sustainable competition in the 22 marketplace, and that's what this is all about. I'll 23 have to pay you back for that one, Debra.24 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: He'll get you Debra. 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 35 Thank you so much, Dane, for being with us and taking 1 the time to spend with us this morning. We had some 2 very interesting questions for you.3 MR. SNOWDEN: Thank you very much.4 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Sorry about that last 5 one.6 MR. SNOWDEN: Have a great meeting. Thank 7 you all.8 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Thank you.9 (Applause.)10 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Now, as I indicated 11 earlier, Larry Goldberg is somewhere in Boston, 12 certainly not on his way to Washington. And Mike Duke 13 of the homeland security working group is going to 14 give us an overview of some of the issues. You were 15 e-mailed a set of, kind of a summary of the Homeland 16 Summit, so I'm hoping that you had a chance to look at 17 those. At any rate, I'm going to turn the floor over 18 to Mike. He will brief us for 15 minutes. We'll take 19 our two-hour working group session. We'll come back 20 here for lunch, and then he will, after lunch, the 21 first issue we'll have is the truth in billing, and 22 then Mike and his group will finish the homeland 23 security issues. So Mike Duke?24 MR. DUKE: Good morning and thank you. 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 36 Part of this is being flexible, right? I don't think 1 there's any question in anyone's mind that September 2 11th, 2001 created a new phrase for our language. It 3 had kind of always been there under various names, 4 such as civil defense, and some of us will admit to 5 remembering the old system and things like that. But 6 we now call it homeland security.7 In addition to having a federal government8 agency or Office of Homeland Security, numerous 9 government agencies, including the Federal 10 Communications Commission, which, of course, is our 11 focus, have offices of homeland security.12 There was a summit held on Thursday, March 13 25th, which was the day prior to our last meeting, and 14 this summit held in this very room, I think, was for 15 homeland security communications issues as they relate 16 to people with disabilities. Commissioner Snowden was 17 there and some other commissioners, and there were 18 various other presentations throughout the day.19 There are more than 50 million citizens of 20 this country who have some type of disability. And 21 what we, as the homeland security workgroup within 22 this committee and what the committee as a whole, 23 anybody working with homeland security issues must 24 remember is that we have to think in terms of what 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 37 will work, how to get messages to these different 1 disabilities.2 What works for David Poehlman or myself as 3 a blind person won't work for people who have severe 4 hearing loss or who are deaf or who have a combination 5 of various disabilities in terms of getting messages 6 to them. We also have issues that this group won't 7 work with so much, but there are issues of getting 8 people with disabilities to evacuation shelters and 9 that type of thing. Now, the Red Cross is doing a 10 really good job of signing on to work with that type 11 of issue. And to their credit, they were beginning to 12 do that long before September 11th, 2001. So they've 13 got a running start, and I'm sure some other non-14 profits and other agencies even, you know, have some 15 things in that area.16 Our focus is going to be, of course, 17 primarily communications-related issues. How do we, 18 how do we get what could potentially be life-saving 19 communications out to the people who, for whatever 20 reason, are not able to simply turn on a television 21 and pick up that information? It's a pretty complex 22 issue.23 If you've read anything at all about the 24 activities, particularly in the New York City area 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 38 after the towers fell, most of the television and a 1 number of the radio transmitters and a number of the 2 cellular telephone transmitters in that area went down 3 with the World Trade Center. So their primary means 4 of communications was lost. And so this is something 5 that won't be solved certainly by one panel this 6 afternoon.7 What I would encourage everyone to do is, 8 if you haven't had a chance to do it yet, look over 9 the information. If it accidentally got under your 10 delete key, let me know and I'll send it to you again. 11 Look through the summaries of this Homeland Security 12 Summit. Look at the ideas and the issues that were 13 raised and discussed there. Develop any thoughts on 14 those that you have or anything that you feel is 15 relevant that our homeland security working group 16 needs to address, and please communicate them to me so 17 that I can pass them along to the working group.18 It is our intent, indeed our hope that, 19 for the November meeting, we can come forth with some 20 form of representation. I don't expect us to solve 21 every issue. It would be great if we could. We could 22 all get jobs, and they could pay us the big bucks, 23 right? But the point is we are in a position to offer 24 suggestions and recommendations to the FCC through 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 39 this committee. The FCC, basically, has said this is 1 a priority. So we have their ear. Let's not waste 2 the opportunity.3 In preparation for the panel this 4 afternoon, we drew heavily on material supplied to us 5 by Joe Gordon, thanks to the Northern Virginia 6 Resource Center for the Hard of Hearing; is that the 7 correct title? Okay. And he will have some more 8 things to say about that this afternoon. Also, 9 joining Joe and myself on the panel this afternoon 10 will be Claude Stout, Brenda Kelly-Frey. Rebecca 11 Ladew was planning to participate. As has already 12 been mentioned, due to an accident, she will not be 13 able to make it in. I was telling Scott earlier that 14 she makes some of the most effective use of e-mail I 15 think I've ever seen, so rest assured that she has 16 been and continues to contribute to this effort, as it 17 is also very important to her.18 That really is sort of an overview and 19 really pretty much the introduction that I would be 20 giving this afternoon. Again, I cannot say it enough. 21 If you have ideas, concerns, please communicate them 22 to us. And if it's things that we've already thought 23 about it, then that simply confirms to us that we're 24 on the right track. The odds are good that it's items 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 40 that we have not yet even considered.1 Our mission is a bit complicated by the 2 fact, as I said earlier, what works for one does not 3 work for all, and that's the unique thing about the 4 disabilities issue. There's so many avenues that you 5 have to cover. Homeland security and this type of 6 accessibility extends beyond the Federal 7 Communications Commission. It's addressed in the, the 8 accessibility issues are addressed in the Americans 9 for Disabilities Act. So there are any number of 10 reasons, legal reasons for having this type of 11 approach and this type of discussion as they relate to 12 this committee.13 I look forward to working with the group. 14 I have an excellent group of participants in the 15 homeland security working group, and I thank everyone 16 who has participated and look forward to working with 17 you between now and November to see this project 18 develop and grow, as I'm sure it will.19 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Mike, thank you so 20 much. He will be reporting later. We'll be talking 21 about some more and some of the content.22 MR. DUKE: Some of the specific issues.23 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Right. This 24 afternoon. But I do encourage you, it is a rather 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 41 lengthy, but it's a summary of the speakers at the 1 Homeland Security Disabilities Summit. It's really 2 well worth reading. They've done an excellent job of 3 distilling the remarks, so you don't have to wade 4 through a lot, but it's worth looking at. Does anyone 5 not have access to a copy of it?6 MR. DUKE: If you really want the entire 7 remarks, I'm sure Scott can ?-8 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Take the summary.9 MR. DUKE: But the summary is what I'm 10 working with. I have read the others, but the summary 11 is quite good.12 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Yes.13 MS. GRANT: I just want to say that 14 whoever did the summary did a great job. For those of 15 us who weren't directly involved, it was very, very 16 helpful.17 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Well, I think, unless 18 you have some questions for Mike that can't wait until 19 this afternoon, we can take a brief break and then 20 head for your breakout rooms. They are all down the 21 hall on the left and right. I believe there are signs 22 in the windows or on the door telling you where to go. 23 And any other questions or comments before we do 24 that? Okay. We'll see you back here at noon for 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 42 lunch. Is there a question? No. I'll see you back 1 here at noon for lunch, and then we will resume our 2 presentations at 1:00. Thank you very much everyone.3 (Whereupon, the foregoing matter went off 4 the record at 9:57 a.m. and resumed at 1:00 p.m.)5 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Good afternoon, 6 everyone. If we could take our chairs? We've got a 7 busy agenda. Before we get started with our panelists 8 that Joy Ragsdale has put together for us, I would 9 like for you to hear from Louis Sigoulos, who is the 10 head of the Consumer Affairs and the Outreach. 11 Committee chair? What?12 MR. SIGOULOS: I'm Chief of the Consumer 13 Affairs and Outreach Division.14 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Division. He is 15 going to briefly talk about something that we are 16 going to pass out documents to you, I believe. Is 17 that correct?18 MR. SIGOULOS: That is correct.19 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Here we go. Let's 20 get you hooked up here.21 MR. SIGOULOS: This will just take one 22 moment. Thank you for the brief opportunity here. We 23 will be working, especially through the subcommittee, 24 with Joy and Debra to put together a fact sheet that 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 43 was tailored to consumer affairs personnel to deal 1 with the public that have issues that they need to get 2 with us on.3 We have got a lot of feedback. We have 4 the latest iteration. I wanted to get that around to 5 everyone today. If you have any further feedback, 6 please go through Debra or Joy. They will get them to 7 us, and we will take care of it.8 We have it in floppy, CD, in or hard copy. 9 We removed all of the formatting and graphics because 10 we just want to get the content right. So I was going 11 to distribute this to you now for you to look at it 12 going forward. If you get those back to us, we really 13 want to get this thing finished.14 Thank you very much for the opportunity to 15 say that.16 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: One question. How 17 are we going to get the documents back to you? How do 18 you want us to communicate to you?19 MS. BERLYN: This is Debra Berlyn. We'll 20 get them back. Joy and I will get them back to Louis 21 and his staff.22 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Okay. So we should 23 turn the documents over to either you or Joy?24 MS. BERLYN: Yes. Just e-mail.25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 44 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: E-mail you our 1 comments?2 MS. BERLYN: Joy and myself. Why don't 3 you e-mail both of us? And that way we'll both be 4 kept --5 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Okay. Is everyone 6 clear on that? All right. Well, we'll pass those out 7 right now.8 Susan Grant?9 MS. GRANT: Two things. Could we get this 10 in the electronic form? And could we set a deadline 11 for getting back? It might be helpful.12 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Okay. Louis, do you 13 want to answer that?14 MR. SIGOULOS: Absolutely, we can get that 15 in electronic form. And I would love a deadline to 16 get it back, but I don't think I will set that one.17 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Debra?18 MS. BERLYN: I think it is really now 19 dependant on this Committee to get some feedback so 20 that they can turn it around. So a deadline for all 21 of you would be helpful. If you could take a look at 22 it and within perhaps the next two weeks get your 23 suggestions to Joy and myself, that would be very 24 helpful.25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 45 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Okay. Then would it 1 be reasonable for us, then, to say that we all wanted 2 this in electronic form and we can just e-mail it to 3 the whole Committee? Would that be better? Okay.4 MR. POEHLMAN: With the information as to 5 where to send responses.6 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Right. We'll work 7 the logistics on that. Two weeks. Debra suggested 8 that you within two weeks get it back.9 MS. BERLYN: Put a deadline in there.10 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Right. And who will 11 we be sending it back to? So we can send the e-mails 12 out under your names so we can just reply? All right. 13 Does that work? Thank you, Louis. Scott will send 14 it out. And then he can distribute the answers. That 15 will be easier.16 Also, just to let you know, there is a 17 card for Rebecca Ladew making the rounds. I hope you 18 will pass it down to the end and then pass it back 19 because some of you haven't signed it because you 20 weren't at the table. We signed it during lunch. So 21 if you would do that, please? Thank you so much.22 Now it gives me great pleasure to turn the 23 program over to Joy Ragsdale, our diligent chair of 24 one of our working groups. And we are going to talk 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 46 about truth in billing. Is that right? Yes, it is. 1 I'm right for a change. Thank you so much.2 Joy, I'm going to let you take it from 3 here.4 MODERATOR RAGSDALE: Thank you.5 PANEL DISCUSSION:6 UPDATE ON TRUTH IN BILLING ISSUES7 MODERATOR RAGSDALE: Good afternoon. My 8 name is Joy Ragsdale. And, again, I am representing 9 NASUCA.10 I on my far left, far, far left have 11 representing NARUC Commissioner Max Curran, who is 12 with the Maryland Public Service Commission.13 And to his right is Mike Altschul, who is 14 a colleague of our co-member Andrea Williams. And he 15 is representing CTIA.16 Seated next to him is Robin Tuttle. Robin 17 is with USTA.18 And sitting here to my immediate left is a 19 co-member and colleague of mine with NASUCA, Patrick 20 Pearlman, who is with the West Virginia Office of 21 Consumer Counsel. They are also located in the Public 22 Service Commission office in West Virginia.23 Some time ago our member group decided 24 that it was necessary to discuss truth in billing 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 47 issues and that we wanted to submit recommendations to 1 the overall consumer Advisory Committee but felt that 2 there was a need to educate the whole panel first 3 before we could make recommendations, hopefully in 4 November.5 But what we have found is that amongst 6 ourselves, we have not been able to come up with a 7 consensus. There are so many diverse perspectives 8 representing the consumers and also industry.9 So we have assembled a panel today to give 10 you as broad a perspective as we can representing 11 various industry and consumer interests and 12 perspectives and concerns on the truth in billing 13 issue.14 You may know -- and I have forwarded to 15 the Committee that NASUCA filed a petition that is now 16 pending before the FCC, and the FCC has put this 17 petition out for comment. And we have with us the 18 drafter of NASUCA's petition. So feel free to ask him 19 all the questions that you believe you need to have 20 answered.21 So, with that, also in your folders today 22 you will find a full description and outline and 23 biographies of the panelists that we have with us here 24 today.25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 48 I will open up the first question and 1 direct it to Patrick Pearlman, representing NASUCA. 2 Just to give you a little background, we had submitted 3 the questions to the panelists in advance so that they 4 can prepare. Then we will open up the balance of our 5 time to general questions and answers from the rest of 6 the Committee members.7 The first question we would like to ask 8 is, in 1999, the FCC adopted broad binding truth in 9 billing guidelines and principles to assure consumers 10 have sufficient information to make informed 11 decisions.12 My question I would like to pose to 13 Patrick is whether he believes that they have been 14 sufficiently implemented today and if he could explain 15 his answer.16 MR. PEARLMAN: Sure. Thank you. And 17 thank you to the Committee for inviting me to speak 18 today regarding truth in billing.19 I think the brief answer -- and I 20 understand we have a brief period of time to respond 21 to the questions -- both as a member of the West 22 Virginia Consumer Advocates Division and as a member 23 of NASUCA, which has filed the petition that Joy 24 referred to, is no. The truth in billing order has 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 49 not been sufficient to constrain what we believe are 1 anti-competitive, anti-consumer practices on the part 2 of inter-exchange carriers and wireless carriers, in 3 particular.4 It has certainly been an improvement. And 5 there are certainly aspects of utility practices that 6 have improved over time. Certainly it is a good thing 7 that carrier or service provider contact information 8 appears on monthly bills for service.9 It is generally a good thing that bills 10 have the separate items that go into what makes up 11 your monthly bill spelled out with some explanatory 12 detail provided. However, if you have read NASUCA's 13 petition, which was filed on March 30th, there is 14 certainly room for improvement and, in fact, I would 15 say, room for rather drastic improvement in 16 constraining practices that frustrate consumers, that 17 stymie consumers' ability to price shop between 18 carriers to determine which carriers best fit their 19 needs, how much they are actually going to pay for 20 service when they sign up for service, and what those 21 charges actually relate to.22 So, generally speaking, it would be our 23 position, it is our position -- and I think it is the 24 right position -- that the truth in billing order 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 50 needs to go further than it did.1 As some of you may know, the 1999 order 2 left certain aspects, such as standardized labels, to 3 be addressed in an industry forum, to be negotiated, 4 if you will, and that hasn't happened.5 Certainly other aspects of I think the 6 practices that the commission was attempting to 7 address have gotten worse in some respects and the 8 monthly surcharges and line items that are the subject 9 of NASUCA's petition are a good example; in fact, a 10 prime example of where the truth in billing order has 11 not realized the pro-competitive, pro-consumer goals 12 that the commission identified in that order.13 MODERATOR RAGSDALE: Robin, would you like 14 to respond?15 MS. TUTTLE: Sure. USTA does believe that 16 the guidelines are working well. Our members, which 17 are primarily wire line local exchange carriers, are 18 not experiencing many billing problems. But when 19 isolated complaints do arise, they are handled.20 So we do not believe regulations are 21 needed in lieu of guidelines at this time.22 MODERATOR RAGSDALE: Commissioner Curran, 23 would you like to respond?24 MR. CURRAN: And I'm going to say an 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 51 answer I think that will satisfy both Robin and 1 Patrick. The short answer is yes. In Maryland, we 2 have experienced that when we have issued regulations 3 that were not as comprehensive as the guidelines in 4 the truth in billing order, we have seen a marked 5 decline of the last few years in slanting and 6 examining complaints that were the impetus for the 7 truth in billing order to begin with.8 Patrick makes an important point that you 9 want to make sure the consumers have the quality of 10 information they need to make an informed decision, 11 but what we found is really through the growth in 12 competition in the State of Maryland with the 13 competitive pressures on the industry to make sure 14 that they are being as consumer-friendly as possible, 15 we have, quite frankly, since 1999 seen a marked 16 decline in the number of complaints that we receive.17 We don't even regulate the wireless 18 industry, but we receive about 50 complaints on the 19 wireless side. Our attorney general, who does 20 regulate the wireless industry, gets about 100 21 complaints. But most of those are resolved at the 22 level of our Office of External Relations, our staff 23 level.24 Having said that, we have found that the 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 52 regulations that we have in place seem to have made a 1 difference. Yes, the guidelines may have made a 2 difference, but we think that the regulations that3 Maryland has in place that mirror some aspect of those 4 truth in billing guidelines have been of assistance, 5 certainly assistance to the folks at the agency that 6 have to enforce these regulations. We have about 15 7 consumer advocates that take consumer complaint 8 resolvers at the commission in our Office of External 9 Relations.10 Those folks, it's helpful to them. 11 Instead of having a 100-page guideline from the FCC on 12 what billing should look like, having the regulations 13 spelled out has been an efficient way for them to deal 14 with those complaints efficiently.15 So yes, Robin, I would say many complaints 16 have diminished. And that is good news. But 17 regulations, Patrick, I think have been helpful as 18 well. So hopefully that satisfies both of you.19 MODERATOR RAGSDALE: Well, Commissioner 20 Curran, you raised a good point that many of the 21 states do not have jurisdiction over the wireless 22 industry. So I would like to ask Mike, what policies 23 has the wireless industry implemented? And if you can 24 explain if they have been helpful?25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 53 MR. ALTSCHUL: Thank you. And let me join 1 with the others on the panel in thanking you for the 2 invitation to participate.3 Let me begin by adding my voice to the 4 choir here that we believe that the guidelines and 5 competition have ensured that consumers have the 6 information they need, both to make informed choices 7 and to understand the elements of their bill.8 Specifically, as the commission had hoped 9 in the 1999 truth in billing order, the wireless 10 carriers have adopted and implemented a voluntary 11 consumer code that goes beyond the truth in billing 12 rules adopted by the commission.13 In particular, our code and the carriers 14 that have committed to the code disclose rates and 15 terms of service to consumers, including whether any 16 additional taxes, fees, or surcharges apply. And they 17 separately identify carrier charges from taxes and 18 surcharges on billing statements that are remitted to 19 government agencies. And this is what a responsible, 20 competitive industry does to benefit consumers.21 Our code is available on our Web site, 22 www.ctia.org. It is available electronically from us. 23 If anyone wishes it, contact Andrea Williams. I 24 brought a summary, a little sheet that we printed out 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 54 just this morning to share with you today.1 MODERATOR RAGSDALE: Thank you.2 Would anyone like to respond? 3 Commissioner Curran, do you believe there is a need 4 for states to get more involved in the wireless 5 industry?6 MR. CURRAN: That's a good question. 7 Based on the evidence that we have now, I would say 8 no. I think that competitive pressures within the 9 industry, which has taken off in the last few years, 10 have been sufficient to let consumers know exactly 11 what they are purchasing and bargaining for as well as 12 the AG's office seems to have been a sufficient avenue 13 for redress for those folks who have complaints.14 In fact, I was looking at the FCC's 15 wireless complaints before I came down here. Most of 16 the growth in complaints there seems to be centered 17 around the recent local number portability issue. 18 They don't seem to be addressed to the slamming and 19 cramming issues that were at the heart of the truth in 20 billing issue.21 So right now I would have to say no, 22 although, quite frankly, Patrick's petition has raised 23 some important issues because it is not just the fact 24 that you don't have a lot of the complaints out there. 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 55 It may be that the quality of information that is 1 getting out to folks in these surcharges is 2 insufficient or misleading and that they are not 3 bringing complaints to commissions because they assume 4 that these surcharges are part of a regulatory 5 mandate.6 So Patrick's petition deserves some review 7 and some scrutiny, whether that results in state 8 commission regulation, perhaps some clarity from the 9 FCC on exactly what should be included in these 10 surcharges.11 I don't see evidence in Maryland that 12 there is a growth in these complaints, but that just 13 may be because folks -- you know, when you are 14 slammed, you know you have been slammed. But when you 15 have been crammed, it may be more difficult for folks 16 to discern that.17 So at this point no, but, Patrick, maybe 18 you can convince me.19 MR. PEARLMAN: I would like the 20 opportunity. If I may respond?21 MODERATOR RAGSDALE: Yes.22 MR. PEARLMAN: One of the things in 23 putting together the petition -- and I shouldn't say 24 --25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 56 MR. CURRAN: Patrick's petition.1 MR. PEARLMAN: It's Patrick's petition, 2 but it is NASUCA's petition.3 MR. CURRAN: Right.4 MR. PEARLMAN: And I was maybe a primary 5 drafter, but certainly it was a collaborative effort 6 and represents the joint position of 47 consumer 7 agencies in 44 states.8 In doing the research, we asked our 9 constituency; in fact, we asked the constituency of 10 NARUC, to identify carrier, wireless and long 11 distance, line item charges and concerns and 12 complaints that they had had. Most of the responses 13 that came back on the wireless side were very short 14 and to the point. We don't regulate wireless. We 15 don't know and we don't pay any attention to what 16 shows up on wireless bills.17 So that is one aspect of it. I think the 18 number of complaints that come in with commissions is 19 going to fluctuate depending on how active the 20 commission is in regulating other terms and conditions 21 of wireless service.22 In West Virginia, we do have a modicum of 23 regulation over wireless carriers, although the 24 commission sometimes seems to think we have less and 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 57 sometimes thinks we have more.1 But I think that part of the reason -- and 2 Commissioner Curran has already gotten to this -- is 3 what do consumers understand these charges to be from 4 their bill?5 As we pointed out in the petition, the 6 charges are labeled in, at best, vague fashion. And I 7 don't think we're going out terribly far on a limb to 8 say that some of the charges are, frankly, misleading. 9 Some of the costs that are being recovered in the 10 charges are misleading.11 Some of the carriers do provide a 12 disclaimer that makes it clear that these are not 13 government taxes or government-required charges. That 14 is usually the last line in a paragraph that appears 15 in fine print, usually on the back of a consumer's 16 bill.17 And if there is a consumer out there who 18 is looking at the fine print on the back of their 19 bill, my hat is off to them, but I think the 20 experience that we have had is that most consumers 21 don't dig that deeply into their bill.22 If they go to a Web site, some carriers do 23 maintain information on their Web site that also 24 discusses these charges. In our research, frankly, 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 58 some carriers don't provide any information regarding 1 the charges or how much the charges are. So 2 oftentimes the consumer's first experience with the 3 charge is when they get their monthly bill.4 We can draw our own conclusions as to 5 whether or not consumers pay sufficient attention to 6 their bill to understand what it is they're getting 7 charged, how much, and why they are getting charged.8 The other aspect of it, too -- and we 9 experienced this in West Virginia -- was that with 10 regard to the wire line long distance carriers, there, 11 too, state commissions face a bit of a challenge 12 because many of the charges -- and this was our 13 experience with regard to AT&T -- are designated or 14 claimed to be in the intrastate jurisdiction and the 15 states don't have any jurisdiction.16 We fought that battle with AT&T. And 17 happily I can say that we actually won that battle. 18 But I think that battle has got to be fought in 50 19 different jurisdictions.20 MODERATOR RAGSDALE: Robin, I would like 21 to ask you, do you believe that the truth in billing 22 guidelines have sufficiently balanced the need to 23 provide consumers with protection and also to provide 24 the carriers with the flexibility they need to 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 59 differentiate themselves to be competitive?1 MS. TUTTLE: Yes, we believe that the 2 goals have worked and that there is not as much 3 customer confusion today about bills as there was five 4 years ago. The principles were helpful for meeting 5 the goals.6 And also changes in the industry, for 7 example, things like wire line LECs are not billing as 8 much for other carriers, have helped reduce confusion.9 So we do think that things are better.10 MODERATOR RAGSDALE: Commissioner Curran, 11 would you like to respond?12 MR. CURRAN: In a certain sense, I want to 13 agree with Robin on that. Since '99, at least the 14 incumbent LEC in Maryland, Verizon, has changed their 15 billing format I think to be consistent with our16 regulations as well as the truth in billing 17 guidelines.18 There are more organized now. They 19 clearly separate out the carrier charges on the bill. 20 There is a description of services and surcharges on 21 the incumbent's bill.22 Patrick, whether or not that is 23 sufficient, not misleading, and consistent with the 24 truth in billing guidelines is something that will be 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 60 at issue in your petition, NASUCA's petition.1 We have also seen I think one of the major 2 issues we had back in '99 were these third party 3 billers that were getting onto the incumbents' bill. 4 Folks didn't understand that. Verizon in Maryland has 5 gotten more vigilant on -- you know, there is an open 6 access requirement -- making sure that they are more 7 astute in assuring that bad actors don't get on the 8 bill.9 So as a result of that, we have seen less 10 complaints. But certainly while they have decreased 11 and stabilized, we need to take a look at these issues 12 surrounding the quality of information that is 13 provided to citizens, customers on those bills.14 MODERATOR RAGSDALE: Thank you.15 The next question I would like to ask has 16 to go -- oh, Mike, sure.17 MR. ALTSCHUL: I basically want to build 18 on what Commissioner Curran has mentioned. In a 19 competitive industry -- and most of the industries are 20 competitive with wireless depending on who the author 21 is, extremely competitive if there is such a thing --22 spend an awful lot of time with focus groups talking 23 to their customers about every aspect of their service 24 in every way the carrier touches the customer 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 61 relationship.1 The billing and the presentation of the 2 information on a bill are a key component in how 3 carriers interact with and satisfy their consumers. 4 They have spent considerable resources in asking 5 consumers how they want information conveyed to them.6 We believe that is exactly the right 7 incentive and that carriers, particularly now that we 8 have number portability, where there is ready ability 9 for a customer who is displeased, feels that a carrier 10 has taken advantage of the trust between a consumer 11 and their supplier, if they feel that their trust has 12 been abused, can easily change carriers.13 So the marketplace has done a very good 14 job. I'm happy to hear that Commissioner Curran has 15 echoed that in Maryland the complaint rate confirms 16 that.17 We have become students of the FCC's 18 complaint rate reports. And we are very proud that 19 the complaint rate per thousand or per million 20 wireless carriers is below the complaint rate of those 21 services that the commission more actively regulates.22 So we think that the marketplace based on 23 that empirical data is doing a better job satisfying 24 consumers than the regulatory rules and the services 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 62 that are more intensively regulated. And that makes 1 sense.2 MODERATOR RAGSDALE: Now, you mentioned 3 that you speak with some of the consumers about their 4 particular needs. Can you explain some of the issues 5 that were raised to your attention but might be 6 technical or legal impediments in terms of producing a 7 bill? What issues do you encounter in producing a 8 wireless bill?9 MR. ALTSCHUL: Well, of course, any of us 10 who are consumers know that the primary number that 11 consumers care about is the amount you write in a 12 check, right, at the end of the month. It's not the 13 line items and how the various blocks are put together 14 to build it up but how much am I paying.15 Of course, the press and consumer groups 16 have done a very good job -- and there are Web sites 17 that also do this -- of summarizing and comparing all 18 of the different carriers.19 In terms of the impediments that all 20 carriers, especially wireless carriers, face, we have 21 a number of them. First, the service is provided 22 without respect to state jurisdictional boundaries.23 So those of us who live in the Washington 24 area know that the wireless markets include Maryland, 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 63 the District of Columbia, Virginia, sometimes parts of 1 West Virginia and Delaware depending on the carrier.2 So a patchwork quilt of different state 3 rules makes it very difficult, costly, inefficient to 4 operate on a market basis. The way consumers use 5 their services is on a multi-state basis. So that is 6 one area of concern.7 Another area of concern that has been 8 identified by our wireless tax group is there are more 9 than 14,400 different taxing jurisdictions in the 10 United States, so many different local sales taxes, so 11 many different 911 surcharges.12 Many consumers -- I must say I live in 13 Arlington County. So it's easy for me. Our 911 14 surcharge is set on a county basis, but some are done 15 by districts that don't necessarily respect county 16 boundaries.17 So creating 1,440 different bills and 18 price structures depending on all of the unique taxes 19 that are imposed legally by different tax 20 jurisdictions is a huge technical impediment to 21 wireless carriers, to all carriers.22 In addition, the FCC's universal service 23 fund support mechanism now adjusts the contribution 24 factor four times a year. So every three months there 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 64 is going to be a change in the amount that consumers 1 are assessed to support universal service.2 There is also a number of very worthy and 3 worthwhile mandates imposed by the FCC that all 4 carriers support. There is contribution to the TRS 5 fund, contribution to support number administration.6 There is a 25-cent-per-year regulatory fee 7 imposed on wireless carriers to support the FCC, 8 something that I am sure the FCC finds valuable. 9 Prorated that 25-cent user fee is 2 and one-third 10 cents per month. It is remitted to the FCC by 11 carriers, and carriers are collecting it.12 Combining all of those individual fees and 13 not giving consumers too much information is one of 14 the things that comes out of these focus groups.15 In reviewing the truth in billing order in 16 1999, I was reminded that the California Public 17 Utilities Commission actually asked that a lot of 18 these individual line items be combined into one line, 19 which is what the industry has responded by doing.20 Finally, unlike wire line carriers that 21 often provide service pursuant to tariff, wireless 22 carriers use contracts. We are unable and actually 23 benefit from being detariffed.24 Because it is a contract, changes in 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 65 certain rates and terms, if material, can reopen the 1 contractual relationship. That is a disincentive to 2 both consumers and carriers because both sides benefit 3 from the certainty of a contract in a one or two-year 4 term. And the rewards that come from that loyalty to 5 a particular service provider.6 So having a lot of changes that opens up 7 contracts every three months or so, for example, with 8 the universal service fund would be a real impediment 9 to consumer-friendly services.10 MODERATOR RAGSDALE: Robin, I would like 11 to ask you the same question with regards to the wire 12 line industry. What type of impediments may you 13 encounter in producing a bill?14 MS. TUTTLE: Sure. Actually, our 15 impediments are very similar. I guess I would touch16 on some of the same points that Mike raised that we 17 would have similar charges to bill for, USF 18 contributions, federal excise taxes, TRS, PIC change 19 charges, as well as any changes that may occur or may 20 be requested, such as changing a font size or a paper 21 size.22 Those types of changes can be very costly. 23 They would increase the size of the bill, which adds 24 postage cost and may be only a few pennies per bill, 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 66 but that adds up when you are doing that for all of 1 your customers.2 I think those are probably the most 3 significant of the impediments that we would 4 encounter.5 MODERATOR RAGSDALE: Okay. I would like 6 to ask -- yes? Sure.7 MR. CURRAN: I think there's an assumption 8 that if you regulate the bills, that there is going to 9 be specific requirements on font size and how you 10 represent your name and logo and that sort of thing. 11 I don't think that is what we would try to do in 12 Maryland or other state regulators would try to do.13 We have to be sensitive that these 14 companies are regional in nature, as Michael 15 referenced, that you can't have a patchwork of 16 regulations that you have to comply with. That is 17 going to add costs to them, and it will be passed 18 along to consumers.19 I think getting back to the truth in 20 billing guidelines and what state regulators would try 21 to do in implementing regulations to support those 22 guidelines are to look for broad criteria.23 The requirements are that the bills be 24 clear and understandable that provide descriptions of 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 67 the services that are being provided, that they are 1 not misleading, that there is a toll-free number on 2 there that if you have a dispute, there is something, 3 there is an avenue for you to call the company and get 4 some redress, that you separate out surcharges like 5 e-911 or universal service.6 Those are very general requirements that 7 should be satisfied that are obligations that I think 8 are fair to place on companies to ensure that 9 consumers have the information that they need to be in 10 the marketplace or to make informed decisions.11 I don't think we are looking for real 12 rigid guidelines or real rigid requirements, just 13 standards that folks should adhere to that are 14 flexible enough for them to compete in regional 15 markets.16 So I just want to dispel this suggestion 17 that either state regulators or regulation would make 18 these requirements too state-specific and then add 19 unnecessary costs to the folks trying to compete.20 MODERATOR RAGSDALE: Robin, you wanted to 21 respond to that?22 MS. TUTTLE: Sure. And I would just add 23 that we believe that our customers do want to have the 24 surcharges and fees broken out. We think they find 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 68 that is useful to them as well as states often may 1 have requirements, but we do note that they are 2 willing to work within the federal requirements to 3 make sure that there is not too much distinction and 4 carriers don't have to create too many different types 5 of bills.6 MODERATOR RAGSDALE: Patrick?7 MR. PEARLMAN: I will try to keep it very 8 brief and just address some of the points. In terms 9 of what NASUCA has petitioned for, we view it as, 10 frankly, simplifying bills greatly, namely taking off 11 any surcharge that is not expressly mandated by 12 federal, state, or local action.13 So in terms of having to, if you will, 14 incur the burden of additional line items, only if the 15 government entity requires that fee to be imposed 16 should that fee show up in your monthly bill.17 It is interesting that in talking about 18 taxes, one of the taxes that I am familiar with and 19 everybody is is the three percent excise tax that is a 20 federal excise tax.21 My understanding is I don't think that has 22 gone up since 1997. I don't think any carrier is 23 having any difficulty in reacting to changes in that 24 tax. Similarly, I think at the state level, most 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 69 state taxes that apply to consumers' bills are 1 remarkably stable.2 A number of the items that Mike addressed, 3 TRS, Telecommunications Relay Service, contributions 4 into the North American numbering plan, many of the 5 carriers I don't think began recovering those costs 6 through a separate line item charge until fairly 7 recently. That is a cost of doing business, frankly.8 You know, if you go to a hardware store to 9 buy a gallon of paint, you pay eight dollars a gallon 10 with a sales tax associated with it. You don't pay 11 eight dollars plus a surcharge for the company's 12 compliance with OSHA regulations, environmental 13 regulations, or any other type of consumer product 14 safety commission advisories. In other words, you are 15 not paying $8 plus 10 cents plus $1.50 plus 50 cents 16 and then you get the total bill at the end of your 17 transaction. I think that is an issue that is fairly 18 important that needs to be borne in mind.19 So I think our goal is actually perhaps 20 one and the same and mutually benefit, which is 21 ultimately we would like to see bills simpler. You 22 pay a monthly rate. If you have a calling plan that 23 has a monthly rate, you pay that. You pay your 24 per-minute usage rate, and you pay any federal taxes 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 70 or local taxes, your 911 fees, for example. And that 1 is all that should be on the bill, and that is all 2 that has to be explained.3 MODERATOR RAGSDALE: I think the gloves 4 are coming off on this question. Robin wants to 5 respond and then Mike.6 MS. TUTTLE: Sure. I just wanted to 7 address -- Patrick had raised the term "mandated." 8 Often regulatory agencies don't mandate a certain 9 charge. They may authorize it or approve it. And 10 certainly if those charges are authorized or approved, 11 then carriers should be able to recoup those charges.12 MODERATOR RAGSDALE: Mike?13 MR. ALTSCHUL: I would like to in front of 14 all of you in this public forum wager a quarter bet 15 with Patrick that when he has his oil change the next 16 time or takes his car in for a repair and takes a look 17 on his shop bill, there is going to be a charge for 18 environmental compliance or a shop fee or both.19 I have just gone through this with my own 20 car with this panel in mind. I said, "Oh, that is 21 interesting. I know an industry that does the same 22 thing. They do it for a very good reason."23 There is no benefit to consumers in 24 individually pricing the price of a washer or how many 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 71 quarts of oil when it is four or five or six quarts 1 depending on the vehicle or how many paper towels are 2 used. Rather, taking a lot of small costs, bundling 3 them, averaging them, and passing them through on a 4 uniform way is more efficient for the service 5 provider. And in a competitive industry, those 6 efficiencies get passed through. Their lower costs 7 get shared with consumers.8 It also goes back to the fact that we are 9 facing 14,000 different price structures given all of 10 the different tax jurisdictions. I wish Patrick was 11 right that these taxes remain the same. Certainly the 12 universal service contribution factor isn't.13 Certainly in Baltimore City right now, 14 where they are proposing to impose a new tax on 15 wireless service, it is not going to be the same, 16 hasn't been in the Maryland suburbs of Washington that 17 have recently imposed new surcharges on wireless. We 18 know in California, 911 surcharges at a community 19 level are being increased on a regular basis.20 So it is a very dynamic and changing 21 environment. Absent tariffing, it doesn't do 22 consumers any good if their contract has to change. 23 It doesn't do consumers any good. They can't compare 24 what are the true variable costs, which is the air 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 72 time and monthly plans that allow them to shop across1 all of the different service providers' rate plans.2 MODERATOR RAGSDALE: Another rebuttal, 3 Robin?4 MS. TUTTLE: Actually, an agreement.5 MODERATOR RAGSDALE: Okay.6 MS. TUTTLE: We agree with CTIA that if 7 you were to roll up all of these surcharges and fees 8 into a total package price, maybe unlike the wireless 9 industry that has a contract with their end-users, the 10 wire line companies are filing tariffs. And they 11 would have to be filing tariffs virtually every month 12 to encompass these changes that can happen, say, 9/11 13 changes from county to county or your universal 14 service contribution changes quarterly.15 So we also believe that it is easier for 16 consumers to be able to compare a base price and get 17 information from the carrier as to additional 18 surcharges and fees that may be on top of that so that 19 they can actually compare apples to apples.20 MODERATOR RAGSDALE: Thank you.21 MR. ALTSCHUL: Could I just inject --22 MODERATOR RAGSDALE: Sure.23 MR. ALTSCHUL: -- some regulatory 24 economics? There may be experts more expert than I on 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 73 this, but there is this notion that consumers benefit 1 by separating fixed from variable costs so that they 2 can get good price signals and adjust their 3 consumption based on true price signals so that my 4 natural gas bill in Arlington, Virginia has a fixed 5 charge for a network system maintenance fee, which 6 doesn't change, and then a usage-based charge based on 7 how much gas. It also provides an incentive for me to 8 buy a more efficient furnace the next time.9 So, similarly, wireless carriers are 10 breaking out for consumers the variable costs, which 11 are within consumers' control, which is their air 12 time, plans, and so on, which provides them with the 13 kind of valuable information they can use to make 14 decisions and separating out these fixed costs, which 15 are really common across all carriers who do business 16 in the same geographic area.17 MODERATOR RAGSDALE: The fixed costs, you 18 refer to those as taxes and fees or are there other 19 fixed costs that you are referring to?20 MR. ALTSCHUL: Well, certainly we all know 21 that carriers have separate line items for taxes, 22 surcharges, fees that are remitted to the government 23 -- and our consumer code recognizes this -- as well as 24 fees which the carriers have broken out from their 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 74 bills to recover their costs of complying with 1 government mandates.2 Patrick calls this the cost of doing 3 business, but, for example, the FCC's numbering rules, 4 number portability rules, allow the regulated LECs to 5 recover their costs of complying with local number 6 portability as a line item on their bill.7 And with respect to wireless, the same 8 order said that since wireless rates are not 9 regulated, we will permit wireless carriers to recover 10 these same costs in any lawful means. So wireless 11 carriers have mirrored what the commission has 12 mandated the wire line carriers to do.13 MR. PEARLMAN: If I can respond to that? 14 There is obviously a lot I would like to respond to 15 but just a couple of the points. With regard to the 16 local number portability fee, it is true the FCC 17 authorized incumbent LECs to impose a fee.18 That fee was imposed pursuant to a tariff 19 that was filed with the FCC as part of their tariffing 20 process and the fee that was allowed. And I emphasize 21 the term "allowed." In other words, the incumbents 22 did not simply pick a number out of the air, put it on 23 your bill, and that was authorized.24 In other words, the incumbents had to go 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 75 to the FCC and demonstrate that the fee bore some 1 relationship to the direct cost that the carriers 2 incur in providing local number portability and just 3 local number portability.4 The wireless carriers, in particular, do 5 not have to make any sort of demonstration to the FCC. 6 There is no requirement to establish a demonstrable 7 relationship between the fee that is being charged and 8 the cost that the carrier is incurring.9 One of the other things since Mike brought 10 it up is the commission's order that allowed carriers 11 to impose number portability fees also suggested that 12 those fees ought to be roughly proportional to each 13 other because smaller carriers have fewer facilities, 14 may have a smaller number, a smaller customer base; 15 whereas, larger carriers have large customer bases and 16 large fixed costs to provide number portability. But, 17 all things being equal, those ought to balance out. 18 That has not been --19 MR. CURRAN: Fortunately, you're going to 20 know it is not true.21 MR. PEARLMAN: Well, it is certainly not 22 true when comparing across the fees that the 23 incumbents were allowed by the FCC and the fees that 24 the wireless carriers are imposing.25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 76 The other aspect of that is that the FCC's 1 order suggested that carriers ought not to be able to 2 recover a fee until the customer is reasonably able to 3 receive the service for which the fee is being 4 imposed.5 In other words, you don't get charged for 6 local number portability until you can actually port 7 your number. That has not been something that has 8 been the experience in the wireless industry because 9 the fees began being imposed, I believe, in January of 10 2002. Local number portability was not a requirement 11 for the wireless industry until November 2002 and, in 12 fact, ended up being extended until November 2003.13 The other concern -- and obviously our 14 petition went at length regarding number portability 15 since it is a fairly important issue -- is how much do 16 the carriers get to recover over time associated with 17 their local number portability cost?18 To my knowledge, there has not been any 19 inquiry into figuring out whether the costs match up 20 to the amount recovered by the carriers, nor has there 21 been any real look at whether or not the carriers are 22 recovering beyond the direct costs of providing number 23 portability.24 In other words, some carriers are 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 77 providing advertising costs. Some are recovering 1 win-back program costs. This is by their own 2 admission.3 So that is a concern with the number 4 portability surcharge, in particular. Some of the 5 other items, too, I think, number plan compliance, 6 TRS, those are contributions that the FCC issues every 7 year.8 The percentage of the amount recovered is 9 tiny. I think it is less than the annual. It would 10 be less than the annual fee that the FCC recovers from 11 the wireless carriers, the 25 cents that Mike 12 referenced. So that is one of the concerns that was 13 raised in our petition.14 And I guess the last point that I will 15 address is just that we are not convinced that 16 customers want to see more surcharges in their bill so 17 that they can shop among carriers.18 Our experience is that consumers do shop, 19 not on the amount that they write on the check but on 20 the bottom line of the usage minutes, the 5 cents a 21 minute plans, the $19 all you can eat wireless plans 22 and so forth. That is really what the consumers are 23 looking at, not at the total charge at the end of the 24 day.25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 78 Thank you.1 MODERATOR RAGSDALE: Mike?2 MR. ALTSCHUL: A quick surrebuttal on a 3 few of these points, maybe not so quick. First, I 4 find it passing strange that a consumer advocate would 5 suggest the consumers benefit from less information, 6 rather than more information, about the elements of 7 their charges and how they are built up and which 8 charges are within the consumers' control and which 9 are not.10 Well, with respect to the specific number 11 portability issues, first, there are petitions pending 12 in nearly all of the states, probably about 40 states, 13 from small rural LECs, as there have been petitions 14 from small wireless carriers, that the costs versus 15 the number of subscribers that they can spread those 16 costs over given their smaller customer base and 17 certain costs of implementing L&P are fixed are 18 disproportionately large and disadvantage them in the 19 marketplace. So there is some empirical marketplace 20 information that is available today that wasn't 21 available to the commission when they adopted the 22 rules.23 Second, the issue which is also raised in 24 the petition that wireless carriers began charging for 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 79 number portability before number portability was made 1 available to wireless consumers is actually not 2 entirely correct.3 Wireless carriers, like all carriers, had 4 to upgrade their networks and start querying the 5 number portability database. As soon as the wire line 6 carriers started providing number portability, it was 7 impossible to complete a call from a wireless phone to 8 a wire line phone once those wire line phones have 9 been opened up to porting without this network upgrade 10 and without the database query to route the call to 11 the right carrier.12 Moreover, because of a parallel FCC rule 13 when the timing was reversed between wire line and 14 wireless, wireless carriers in 2002 had to complete 15 their network upgrades to support a thousand-block 16 pooling, something which the commission did to 17 facilitate efficient number utilization but saying the 18 commission only imposed on the industry after they 19 imposed L&P on wire line carriers.20 So the timing is not strange. It reflects 21 the benefits that all consumers, including wireless 22 consumers, received from both wire line portability, 23 which began in 1999, and thousand-block pooling.24 MODERATOR RAGSDALE: Thank you.25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 80 One question I would like to ask before I 1 open it up to the floor for general questions, the 2 first important order for the truth in billing order 3 indicated that the consumer groups and industry 4 representatives should get together to discuss 5 standardization of federal regulatory action charges. 6 Are any of you aware if that action has taken place? 7 And if not, would you be interested in initiating an 8 action?9 Who would like to be the first one? 10 Robin?11 MS. TUTTLE: We're not aware that any such 12 initiatives have occurred to create focus groups. I 13 believe our members would be open to participating in 14 consumer focus groups to discuss labeling. And 15 perhaps this is something this Committee could assist 16 with.17 MODERATOR RAGSDALE: We will try.18 Mike?19 MR. ALTSCHUL: I guess two answers. One 20 is that the question implies, as Patrick's petition 21 alleges, that something is broke, it needs to be 22 fixed. We really challenge that. We challenge on the 23 basis of complaints. We challenge it on the attention 24 that carriers give these issues.25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 81 Having said that, the CTIA consumer code 1 is a result of listening to consumer advocates as well 2 as consumers of a dialogue that has not always been in 3 the same room at the same time but has involved some 4 very frank discussions and back and forth with the 5 NARUC Consumer Affairs Committee.6 We made presentations to them. They made 7 presentations and letters to us. And in adopting our 8 principles and our cost, we have started from the list 9 of issues that these regulatory and consumer groups 10 have brought forward.11 MODERATOR RAGSDALE: Commissioner Curran 12 with NARUC?13 MR. CURRAN: I think that's fine. I think 14 some of the issues for some of these guidelines were 15 put into regulations. I think the labeling regs were 16 stayed by OMB. And I assume that that stay is still 17 in effect for that.18 That may have been one of the reasons 19 folks didn't huddle around to work on these labeling 20 requirements because, actually, there was a fairly 21 compelling dissent filed in that with the TIB by -- I 22 don't want to get his name wrong --Furchtgott-Roth.23 And it may be that folks had concerns 24 about the commercial speech implications or the 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 82 constitutional concerns around that. It may also have 1 been from the NARUC view that we were -- at least I 2 can speak for Maryland and look at some of the data 3 across the country -- seeing a decrease in the amount 4 of slamming and cramming complaints. And we were 5 seeing the separations in billings which were required 6 under the TIB, separations between providers as well 7 as between charges.8 So it was those things that may have9 happened in combination with the stay, in combination 10 with folks' review of the dissents filed in the TIB 11 order, that folks didn't huddle around to do the 12 labeling.13 Whether or not that is required or not, 14 I'm sure that the NARUC consumer affairs folks if 15 there is a group put together, NASUCA and others ask 16 for an invitation to join, I am sure they would be 17 willing to participate in that.18 I just wanted to follow up on the 19 discussion. I didn't want to get between Michael and 20 Patrick before. That was a dangerous place to be. 21 But just on the surcharge issue, I think one of the 22 concerns of the regulators is that the charges that 23 are reflected on the bill with local number 24 portability or e-911 or universal service, we are 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 83 concerned that those charges do, in fact, reflect the 1 cost of the service that is provided to folks.2 So in that aspect, we would agree with 3 Patrick. On the other hand, if we get into this fixed 4 and variable cost issue, Michael's clients, if some of 5 them are being inefficient and hiding costs associated 6 with the inefficiencies in their operation in 7 surcharges, the more efficient carriers that are out 8 there will be able to defeat them in the marketplace.9 So, again, I am sympathetic because I 10 think that Patrick is correct and NASUCA is correct 11 that the goals of the TIB are that the charges that 12 are on the bill should, in fact, reflect the services 13 that are being provided to consumers. If that is not 14 happening, then that is wrong. But, on the other 15 hand, the competitive forces out there should drive 16 those bad actors out of the marketplace.17 MR. ALTSCHUL: This is a little surreal in 18 that the Bureau of Labor Statistics has done for a 19 period of almost eight years now the consumer price 20 index for wireless service, which includes the bottom 21 line, not just rate plan elements.22 We all know that the wireless industry, in 23 contrast to other segments of the telecommunications 24 industry, has a record of continually declining total 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 84 prices.1 And it's a little strange that regulators 2 who have allowed consumers to benefit from totally 3 deregulated prices, which have driven all of the 4 prices that end-users pay down to carriers' costs, 5 would seek to regulate a line item surcharge while the 6 actual price would not be regulated, particularly when 7 the government's price data indicates that the overall 8 price of the air time as well as the line items as 9 well as the taxes continues to go down.10 MR. PEARLMAN: If I can, I guess, respond 11 first to Joy's question and then just briefly to a 12 couple of the other comments? NASUCA along with I 13 think everybody else is unaware of that initiative, if 14 you will, to address standardized labeling. But I 15 think it is fair to say we would be happy to sit at 16 the table and discuss those sorts of things.17 With regard to the issue of the price for 18 wireless service, that is probably true. You know, I 19 think telecommunications is generally a declining cost 20 industry. And we have certainly seen with access 21 charge reductions, the cost or the price for wire line 22 services generally declined, at least with regard to 23 the usage rates.24 I think the concern that Commissioner 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 85 Curran raised is identical to or analogous to what we 1 brought up in the NASUCA petition, which is, are 2 consumers able to make that price comparison between 3 efficient and inefficient carriers? We are skeptical, 4 obviously.5 The problem is that it is a competitive 6 market. And some carriers are more efficient than 7 others. Those which are inefficient can hide their 8 costs or their inefficiency costs through surcharges. 9 Those that are more efficient find a profit motive 10 that is there by being able to do what everybody else 11 is doing by imposing a surcharge.12 Obviously I can't name names of who is the 13 efficient and who is the inefficient, but I think the 14 concern is that it really does frustrate the 15 consumers' ability to shop between carriers. And I 16 think it frustrates the goal of the competitive market 17 to weed out those carriers that are truly inefficient.18 As we point out in our petition, we are 19 not suggesting that carriers should lose money. We 20 are simply saying that recover your costs in your 21 rates, not through separate surcharges.22 I think part of the problem is 23 exemplified, as we point out, in just the sampling of 24 carrier surcharges with the number of programs, costs, 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 86 et cetera, that are lumped into these fees. I think 1 it would be difficult, if not impossible, to correlate 2 the costs associated with each program to the 3 carriers' fee.4 Given the fact that there are something 5 like 1,000 wire line long distance carriers and 1,400 6 wireless providers, no regulatory agency is going to 7 be able to make that kind of correlation either.8 MODERATOR RAGSDALE: Anyone biting at the 9 bit?10 (No response.)11 MODERATOR RAGSDALE: No? Shirley would 12 like to open it up to the floor. Are there any 13 questions?14 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Yes. Because of our 15 rearrangement of schedules, we do have an extra half 16 an hour that we are going to use if we need it for 17 questions. So I would like to answer. And I think 18 David had his hand up and then Susan and I'm hoping 19 the rest of you.20 MR. POEHLMAN: Goody, goody, goody. I get 21 to go first again. This is David Poehlman with the 22 American Council of the Blind today.23 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Fast hand over there, 24 David.25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 87 MR. POEHLMAN: Yes. I have been 1 fluttering for, oh, half an hour, 45 minutes here.2 I appreciate the panel discussion. It has 3 been informative and insightful. First, I just want 4 to give you my perspective. I'm a bottom line guy. 5 So I guess I am kind of weird or strange or unique or 6 somewhat rare in that I do want to know what my bill 7 is going to be at the end of every month.8 Having said that, having observed my 9 monthly bill over the past several years, I was 10 mystified by a statement that if these charges were to 11 be bundled into the tariffing for wire line, that they 12 would have to go back every couple or three months to 13 adjust the tariffs because for years, my basic rate 14 stayed the same. The only thing that changed was the 15 amount that I paid for long distance based on the 16 number of minutes I used on my long distance before I 17 got into a bulk rate plan.18 If somebody can clear that up for me, I 19 would appreciate that. Maybe I am misunderstanding 20 something.21 MS. TUTTLE: I think maybe I can address 22 that. What I was trying to indicate was that if the 23 various surcharges and fees were rolled into a total 24 package price so that consumers were comparing a total 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 88 price, that that could cause carriers to have to go 1 back and file tariffs every month because the various 2 surcharges that are rolled into that could change from 3 month to month or quarter to quarter. Does that help?4 MR. POEHLMAN: That is what you said, but 5 I haven't seen that kind of evidence of those charges 6 over the past several years, the fluctuations.7 MS. TUTTLE: Oh, the fluctuations in the 8 911 or the universal service?9 MR. POEHLMAN: There have been minor 10 changes over the years, but basically my phone bill 11 has stayed the same or did stay the same up until 12 relatively recently.13 MS. TUTTLE: I was just speaking with one 14 of our members earlier this week. He had mentioned 15 that his 911 charge had gone up from 50 cents to 75 16 cents. So I think it depends on where you live. His 17 county had just changed that. So if that were the 18 case, his would have to be changed to reflect that.19 MR. POEHLMAN: Right. But when before 20 that did it go up to 50 cents?21 MS. TUTTLE: I don't know.22 MR. POEHLMAN: See, that is the question 23 that I have. Sure, we see incremental changes every 24 now and then but not every month, not every couple of 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 89 months. So that's what I was trying to get at. I was 1 confused by the statement because of my experience.2 MS. TUTTLE: Well, now, I would just also 3 add, too, that the universal service contribution does 4 fluctuate every quarter. And you might see a change 5 in your universal service contribution portion of your 6 bill. It may be pennies, but that is still a 7 difference in a charge.8 MR. ALTSCHUL: And also under traditional 9 rate of return regulation, carriers and their 10 regulators may over-collect for the rate of return for 11 a period and under-collect for a period because of 12 regulatory lag, extending in a regulated monopoly 13 environment rate stability in a way that you don't see 14 in a competitive industry, whether it's the airline 15 industry or the wireless industry, where rate changes 16 are dynamic.17 We were talking earlier about whether 18 consumers really do shop and make informed choices. 19 In the wireless industry for the last 3 years, 30 20 percent of subscribers have changed carriers each 21 year.22 We are not seeing number portability at 23 that rate, but we are continuing to see churn at that 24 rate. And we see on a quarterly basis that there are 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 90 clear winners and losers among the carriers, some 1 gaining customers at a much greater percentage, some 2 carriers in some quarters actually going in the wrong 3 direction, losing more customers than they acquire.4 So consumers are doing something out 5 there. They are paying attention and rewarding 6 carriers that provide value and attractive product and 7 punishing those that don't.8 MS. GRANT: Hi. Susan Grant from the 9 National Consumers League. I've got three questions.10 I was interested in the notion that these 11 various kinds of fees and surcharges are somehow 12 useful for consumers. Are the members of the industry 13 suggesting that all businesses, not just telecom 14 business, should provide bills or receipts that have 15 essentially an X-ray vision of what goes into the 16 price, including the social and legal responsibilities 17 of the business, and, to take it one step further, 18 things like executive compensation, the cost of travel 19 for employees, and just all of the various costs of 20 doing business? Maybe that would be good for 21 consumers to see, but I am wondering if that is what 22 you are advocating.23 Second, if there is a trend towards 24 businesses starting to break out what one could argue 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 91 are costs of doing business separately in their bills, 1 are you saying that that is a good thing for the 2 marketplace or does it create the danger of totally 3 skewing advertised prices so that they don't actually 4 have any basis in reality to the end price that 5 consumers pay?6 And, finally, if you rolled these costs of 7 doing business into the price, instead of allowing 8 them to be what are essentially unsubstantiated line 9 items, wouldn't that reduce the incentive for 10 companies to pad those amounts, as the NASUCA petition 11 has documented is happening?12 MODERATOR RAGSDALE: Were you directing 13 your question to anyone in particular?14 MS. GRANT: Yes. No. Everyone.15 (Laughter.)16 MR. ALTSCHUL: I will be happy to jump in 17 in these waters. Let's take a real world example of 18 sales tax, something simple that is a little different 19 than your question about the doughnuts that executives 20 may have on Monday morning at their staff meeting.21 It is the universal or nearly universal 22 practice in this country that products are advertised 23 without sales tax. That is because Maryland's tax is 24 going to be different from the District's, than 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 92 Virginia's. And everybody is going to be in the 1 Washington Post.2 This provides consumers with the ability 3 to shop for the lowest price from a wide range of 4 outlets. And then the taxes are variable. The 5 consumer is not told what they are actually going to 6 be paying out of their pocket for the good plus the 7 service.8 As a result, you see an awful lot of price 9 advertising for goods. The Federal Trade Commission 10 for reasons lost to history has required gasoline 11 prices to be posted inclusive of all of the taxes, the 12 federal tax, the local tax, and so on and so forth.13 I defy you to point out price advertising 14 of gasoline prices. It just doesn't happen because it 15 is so variable. Consumers don't get price signals 16 when all of these variable costs are included because 17 it is too local.18 So it goes back to the point I was 19 suggesting, that by breaking out those elements which 20 consumers can shop for and sending them strong price 21 signals and separating those elements which are 22 imposed on businesses by government regulations that 23 are common across all of them, it actually encourages 24 price advertising, price competition, and benefits 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 93 consumers.1 Lumping together everything in one charge 2 over 14,400 different jurisdictions will so muddy the 3 information stream that consumers won't get the price 4 signals that they get today, just as in gasoline 5 versus other goods.6 MS. GRANT: I just want to clarify that I 7 am not including taxes in my question.8 MR. ALTSCHUL: No. I am just explaining 9 what happens when you have a unitary pricing versus a 10 price system where the elements are separated on 11 separate line items.12 MR. PEARLMAN: I will go ahead and jump 13 in, I guess, too. I guess I am still kind of confused 14 by the price shopping for gasoline because I know I 15 price shop based on what I see on the gasoline board. 16 And if it's $1.39 -- well, let's be real.17 (Laughter.)18 MR. PEARLMAN: If it's $2.39 -- boy, those 19 seem like not that long ago days -- I am going to look 20 for some place that's advertising at $2.38 or $2.37.21 And I know that in West Virginia, we've 22 got generally 44 or 45 cents per gallon state and 23 federal taxes. It tells me so right on the pump. But 24 what I am looking at is who is charging 2.39 and who 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 94 is charging 2.37.1 The other thing that determines --2 MR. ALTSCHUL: Don't you have to drive by 3 to do that? You can't go look it up in a newspaper. 4 There is no price advertisement.5 MR. PEARLMAN: That's generally true. 6 There is not because the price does fluctuate quite a 7 bit. I guess what we are getting at, too, is the idea 8 of putting it all in one fixed sum is I think a little 9 disingenuous for what NASUCA is petitioning for 10 because we are not saying, "Put it all in one charge" 11 or "Put it all in one rate plan."12 I mean, the carriers ought to have, I 13 mean, we certainly want carriers to have, the 14 flexibility to price plans out. We want consumers to 15 have as many choices for types of plans and rate plans 16 out there as they can get because ultimately the 17 consumer ought to shop for what makes sense for him or 18 her.19 We are not saying, "Don't recover your 20 costs of doing business." If your cost of doing 21 business is $150 million a year, well, then, recover 22 $150 million a year. And you can obviously recover 23 some profit, too. But put that $150 million in your 24 profit and what you are charging consumers on their 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 95 monthly rate plan or on their per-minute plan.1 But recovering $150 million a year plus X, 2 which is incorporated into a surcharge that recovers 3 numerous costs of doing business, we don't think that 4 really sends the proper price signal to the consumer.5 And I can just real quickly relate the 6 story I had on the drive over here with the taxicab 7 driver. He said, "Where are you going?"8 And I said, "The FCC."9 And he said, "What are you doing there?"10 And I said, "We're having this forum. And 11 I'm giving a presentation. And we're talking about 12 charges on bills."13 And he said, you know, "I don't understand 14 my bill. I haven't understood my bill for years. 15 What do these things mean? Why do I have to pay them? 16 Why does the government keep putting all of these 17 charges on my bill?"18 And I said, "Well, that is what we are 19 going to be talking about today." I don't know 20 whether these folks are filing complaints or not.21 Another D.C. cabbie -- and I've got to 22 give them credit because they're pretty sophisticated 23 here -- was telling me that what he does is he just 24 doesn't pay the surcharge, which I said, "Hey, that's 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 96 actually a good idea. I don't know if that is 1 deniable or undeniable." Oh, it's deniable? Okay.2 But I think a number of consumers take 3 that approach. And I don't think that's something 4 that we necessarily want to do either. So I think 5 that the idea that consumers are benefitted by a 6 multitude of programs being recovered in one or more 7 line item charges, I'm not sold on that idea.8 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Okay. Now let me 9 just ask you, is your question a follow-up to that 10 answer or is it separate?11 MS. GRANT: No. It's separate.12 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Okay. Well, Donald 13 had his hand up first.14 MR. SNOOP: One of the questions I had 15 ties in with truth in billing, but it also has a lot 16 to say about what these taxes are all for and why the 17 average consumer has absolutely no control over it.18 Nine, one, one, universal service are 19 probably two of the ones that I don't think anybody 20 would argue or would probably be extremely valuable 21 and would need to happen. We need to find funding 22 formulas that actually make sense.23 Gross receipts, tax, surcharges, various 24 other things that the companies are forced to either 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 97 pay, pass through, or something of that nature, the 1 average consumer has no control over those.2 Quite often they become budgetary items 3 that become ways for municipalities, counties, states 4 to fund other initiatives. They have absolutely 5 nothing to do with the cost of providing that service. 6 It's just a matter of it falls into a general fund.7 It happens. It continues to happen. I 8 have seen example after example, even abuses on 911, 9 where counties take all of these funds supposedly to 10 subsidize the cost of assign a ring so that nothing 11 ever goes down with the system.12 And then, all of a sudden, somebody cuts a 13 fiber. And guess what? Half of the county is out. 14 Why? Because they never completed it because it went 15 into the general fund.16 It has nothing to do with truth in 17 billing, but I think it is part of what you are 18 talking about because the actual control the consumer 19 has is absolutely zero when it comes to this. The 20 costs get passed on to companies.21 To Michael's statement, I agree with him 22 that companies have absolutely no -- I mean, they can 23 absorb the costs. Sure, they could absorb it. Why 24 should they? They're being mandated.25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 98 MR. PEARLMAN: Is your question directed 1 to me or --2 MR. SNOOP: No.3 (Laughter.)4 MR. SNOOP: No. I just happened to look 5 at you, Patrick.6 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Okay. Andrea was the 7 next question and then David.8 MS. WILLIAMS: Andrea Williams with CTIA. 9 I'm not going to ask Mike because I can ask --10 MR. ALTSCHUL: You had better not ask me a 11 hard question.12 MS. WILLIAMS: There are two things, 13 Patrick, that I wanted to ask you in terms of -- and14 Commissioner Curran. You say that you don't know 15 whether consumers are filing or they're not filing, 16 but you say that the NASUCA petition is based on the 17 research.18 I can only assume that is only based on 19 the complaints that you are receiving that consumers, 20 they don't want this, what we feel is, I guess you 21 would say, for the wireless industry informing them of 22 what they are paying for in terms of what we don't 23 view in the wireless industry as normal business 24 operating expenses.25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 99 We had an earlier discussion about this, 1 that we're even seeing in companies government 2 mandates are no longer. Those types of things, 3 they're different line items in a corporation's 4 finances. They're not part of cost of doing business.5 I think it is sort of ironic that -- well, 6 not ironic, but one thing that I have not seen in 7 NASUCA's petition that I think all of us in this room 8 agree with, you said that consumers don't pay much 9 attention to their bills. Well, that says something 10 to us.11 Why? Why aren't they paying much12 attention? Is the level of consumer education not 13 where it needs to be? Consumer advocacy agencies, 14 industry, do we all need to be doing a better job so 15 consumers are reading their bills, showing them how to 16 read their bills?17 It's so easy to say, "Let's regulate it" 18 because no one wants to take the time out to teach a 19 consumer as "Excuse me, Marcie Simms. An educated 20 consumer is our best consumer."21 And I'm just wondering, in all of this 22 dialogue, where is the consumer education?23 MR. PEARLMAN: Well, one thing I guess 24 maybe I should clarify what I said. When I said the 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 100 consumers weren't paying attention to the amount they 1 write on their check, they pay attention to that, 2 obviously. And I probably misspoke.3 What I don't think they are paying 4 attention to is all the items that go between the 5 monthly plan that they signed up for and the rate that 6 they were promised in the advertising or the 7 telemarketing call and then all of the stuff in 8 between that and the bottom line at the end of the 9 month.10 Some of those I think are just probably to 11 consumers relatively indecipherable. And certainly a 12 surcharge that recovers a multitude of things is going 13 to be something that the consumer is not going to know 14 whether or not it is valid, how much it ought to be15 and so forth.16 So with that clarification --17 MS. WILLIAMS: Don't we have a 18 responsibility, all of us in terms of government and 19 industry, in making sure they understand, educating 20 them?21 MR. PEARLMAN: Certainly. I think we all 22 agree on that. We all make that effort. You know, 23 the effort, has it been sufficient? Maybe, maybe not.24 Certainly the FCC has taken a step forward 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 101 with creating the Consumer and Government Affairs 1 Bureau. I think that was a positive step.2 Part of it I think is, frankly, my office, 3 the Consumer Advocate Division in West Virginia, we 4 don't log consumer complaints. We get calls from 5 consumers who complain about various things on their 6 bills or in their service, but we don't have a 7 consumer assistance team.8 We have seven people in my office. And we 9 don't log those types of complaints. I'm sure that in 10 a lot of states where they don't regulate wireless, 11 they are not really necessarily tracking complaints.12 So I think some functions in terms of 13 tracking and in terms of outreach are functions of 14 jurisdiction and, frankly, administrative 15 capabilities.16 We do maintain -- most I think of the 17 consumer advocate offices; in fact, I think all of 18 them, have got Web sites. And we will typically 19 provide consumer information.20 The FCC has a Web site, in which it also 21 provides consumer information. I think carriers 22 maintain Web sites. Some of them provide more 23 information than others. Some provide, frankly, not 24 much information to inform consumers.25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 102 I would say that certainly a better job 1 can be done by all of us, but, again, the thrust of 2 our petition really is to simplify a consumer's bill 3 as much as possible so that things that look like a 4 government charge but aren't necessarily a government 5 charge don't show up on that bill.6 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Okay. Well, I'm 7 sorry. We only have time for one more question. And 8 David had his hand up. And it is going to have to be 9 a brief one. We have got five minutes. Sorry about 10 that.11 MR. HOROWITZ: It will be a brief 12 question. That is, I wonder why the public wasn't 13 told up front about these charges that they thought 14 might have been government charges on their bills that 15 were listed and that basically were being used 16 according to the things that I read and the people 17 that I spoke to in the industry to show that there are 18 costs that needed to be paid by the companies.19 And that is why they put these on the 20 bills. And they didn't think it was necessary to have 21 to put on the bills that these were nongovernment 22 charges that were there because I find that a reason 23 for a lot of this is overzealous salespeople from the 24 companies, not the telemarketing companies but from 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 103 the companies that are selling these products, that 1 are not telling people the truth. And people are 2 walking around saying, "Oh, no. That's a government 3 thing" because they tell them that.4 I have gone into a number of stores that 5 sell cell phones and have been given that line that 6 these are government charges. That's what you pay on 7 your bill.8 My feeling is, why don't you just include 9 this as part of a cost of doing business, which it is, 10 and take your money out of that; in other words, 11 saying that the cost of this call is not five cents 12 but it actually is nine cents, instead of putting 13 these nonsensical things on your bills?14 MR. ALTSCHUL: Well, it gets back to all 15 of the different themes. To take all of those costs 16 and to put them into just air time would either 17 involve averaging across the country and making it 18 very easy for state and local governments to impose a 19 lot of fees knowing that there would be no penalty in 20 their local area.21 I don't think consumer groups would 22 necessarily want to encourage the kind of abuses we 23 have seen. In some states, where 911 fees are being 24 used to fund general government revenues, that is a 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 104 truth in billing issue, which is different from this 1 panel's focus.2 There is another issue. It goes back to 3 the fact that we use contracts. It is common for 4 everything we buy to have a quantity discount. So if 5 I subscribe to a magazine for 12 months, the price is 6 going to be per-month higher than if I sign up for a 7 few years' subscription.8 The same is true with wireless service. 9 If you sign up for a one-year contract, you have a 10 different set of benefits and price points and for a 11 two-year point of view.12 If carriers cannot recover these variable 13 costs that are imposed on them, it's a cost of doing 14 business but a cost that is not under their control 15 because the government mandates Kaglia or the 16 government changes the Kaglia cost recovery rules in 17 midstream.18 As the FBI has petitioned the FCC and is 19 pending before the FCC right now, carriers will be 20 reluctant to enter into these long-run contracts 21 because they can't change the terms of those contracts 22 mid-year.23 MR. HOROWITZ: Well, you can't do that 24 when you are buying your cell phone either. They say 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 105 if you dump out of it before your year is over, it's 1 still going to cost you $150 as a penalty.2 So my feeling is I don't know why 3 industry, which is so ready to go out and criticize 4 the taxing system and all of that, doesn't come up 5 with a system that can make it workable because here 6 are the guys who are the brain trusts in these 7 businesses.8 Why don't you find a way that it will work 9 so that it's honest and everyone can understand it 10 across the board? I don't think it's impossible. I 11 just think it takes manpower and brain power to do it.12 MR. ALTSCHUL: Well, certainly there can 13 be responsibilities on all sides. If the government 14 is willing to provide stability the way it used to be 15 in the regulated residential telephone world, where 16 rates didn't change for eons. They changed at the 17 speed of glaciers, it would be a lot easier task for 18 what you are looking for. That is not the world we 19 live in.20 MR. HOROWITZ: But it isn't the same 21 because that was caused by competition in the 22 marketplace finally. Companies like MCI that went 23 into long distances said, "We are going to lower the 24 rates." and then suddenly Ma Bell and the baby Bells 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 106 were put into a situation that they had to do 1 something in order to compete.2 And what they finally ended up going to 3 was court. The court said, "Okay, guys. We are going 4 to let you compete. We are just going to let you get 5 rid of all of the baby Bells," who had now become 6 monopolies like Ma was.7 MR. ALTSCHUL: I'd love to engage you on 8 that discussion.9 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Joe, I think you had 10 -- Tom?11 MR. GORDON: Fast question.12 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Very fast.13 MR. GORDON: Patrick, back to Andrea's 14 question, have you ever analyzed consumer questions or 15 complaints about their billing as to whether they 16 write a check, have third party billing, or have 17 online billing?18 Would you say that third party billing 19 will result -- third party payment; I'm sorry -- third 20 party payment results in less of a question or 21 complaint?22 MR. PEARLMAN: Well, I guess in terms of 23 have we analyzed the complaints that have come in, I 24 guess no. Anecdotally we get complaints. You know, 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 107 it's more of the attorneys in the office talking 1 amongst ourselves or talking online with other 2 consumer advocates.3 MR. GORDON: Well, when someone pays a 4 bill through their credit card company, would they be 5 more prone not to complain?6 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: I'm afraid I'm going 7 to have to close it off. I only gave you one 8 question, Joe. I'm sorry. Our time is up. And I 9 really don't want to impinge more on the homeland 10 security presentation.11 So I would like to thank all of you for 12 being with us today. You have been an excellent 13 panel. You have given us a lot to think about. And 14 it's lovely to hear agreements and disagreements. 15 Thank you very much.16 (Applause.)17 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: We are moving on to 18 the homeland security issues. I really want to again 19 thank Mike Duke for taking over this job or starting 20 this panel at our last meeting.21 They have done a lot of work. They are 22 going to give you a status report today. And then 23 probably in November -- I don't want to put pressure 24 on them, but I think in November, they will probably 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 108 have some recommendations to make.1 Again, I want to encourage you to go back 2 and read the summary of the points that were presented 3 at the summit, at the homeland security summit.4 With that, I would like to turn it over to 5 Mike Duke.6 PANEL DISCUSSION:7 UPDATE ON HOMELAND SECURITY ISSUES8 MODERATOR DUKE: Okay. As I said this 9 morning, the aftermath of September 11th has created 10 this new catch phrase called "homeland security," 11 which is more than a phrase. It is a reality.12 On March the 25th, the Federal 13 Communications Commission held a summit called 14 "Homeland Security and People With Disabilities."15 Homeland security is for everyone. We 16 know that. But people with disabilities have some 17 special issues and concerns with homeland security as 18 they relate to communications and so forth.19 Several people from this group attended 20 that meeting. They and some others have agreed to 21 give some brief presentations this afternoon. I will 22 have to ask my panel. If we are going to stay on 23 track, we have about a half-hour, as opposed to 45 24 minutes. But if you can adjust that appropriately, I 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 109 would appreciate it.1 And hopefully we will have a little bit of 2 time at the end for some questions and/or input from 3 the rest of you because that is an important part of 4 what we are trying to do in time for November.5 Presenting to you this afternoon will be 6 Joe will go first, followed by Claude and then Brenda. 7 And then Ann has some comments for us as well. So we 8 will begin with Joe Gordon.9 MR. GORDON: Really, the summary that Mike 10 sent all of us covers it all. And I just thought I 11 would add or emphasize a few of the points made in the 12 summary as far as homeland security or any emergency 13 applies to people with disabilities, particularly in 14 my case people that have a hearing loss.15 I think it is important that we realize 16 that not every emergency is a terrorist attack. We 17 have to realize that there is fire and natural 18 disasters and weather conditions, which can cause an 19 emergency situation.20 As far as people with a hearing loss are 21 concerned, things that we know and should know are 22 that we cannot normally always hear an alarm. We 23 cannot follow verbal instructions. And in the dark, 24 we're literally lost.25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 110 That is important for emergency personnel 1 to realize and know. And they have been educated on 2 this in local geographical areas, either by consumer 3 organizations or by government regulation, the various 4 things that should be provided in emergency situations 5 whenever possible, sign language interpreters, 6 assisted listening devices, and captioning, whether 7 it's open or closed, on TV or hand-held devices, 8 wherever we can do that.9 And emergency captioning on television 10 should be done correctly and promptly. It's important 11 if FCC realized what is an emergency in one area 12 should be captioned. As you know, the sniper 13 situation last year was something that fell through 14 the cracks and has been corrected.15 The FCC has regulated since the early '90s 16 for telephones to be amplified and be hearing 17 aid-compatible. I know many people in the Wall Street 18 financial area when we did have the 9/11 situation 19 tried to pick up a street phone where there were wire 20 line phones that had a hearing loss, a mild or 21 moderate hearing loss. And they could not get through 22 because the phone was not amplified or was not 23 compatible with their hearing aid. It was working, 24 but it didn't have these features.25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 111 So I think the FCC generally in cases like 1 this is reactive, not proactive, should periodically 2 send out reminders of what is required by 3 communication industry.4 We all should know that a 911 call on a 5 wire line phone will give you the name, address, and 6 location of the person making the emergency call. But 7 in most cases, a 911 call on a wireless phone will not 8 give the information.9 My consumer group that I am associated 10 with educates our members to give that information to 11 the operator when they make a wireless 911 call. And 12 we also tell them when they make a TTY or relay call 13 during an emergency, not to go through the relay 14 operator but to make their call direct.15 The last thing that I want to share with 16 you, it's very basic but things that we put out in our 17 consumer deaf and hard of hearing organizations are 18 sheets with tips, which we have given to emergency 19 police, fire personnel in our areas telling them how 20 to communicate with a person that is deaf or hard of 21 hearing in an emergency situation or even when they 22 stop your vehicle, how to communicate to the person.23 Thank you, Shirley or thank you, Mike.24 MODERATOR DUKE: Thank you.25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 112 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Thank you, Joe.1 MODERATOR DUKE: Okay. Claude is next.2 MR. STOUT: Joe did a wonderful job in 3 touching on the general characteristics of the deaf 4 and hard of hearing population. The deaf population 5 uses sign language. The hard of hearing population 6 uses hearing aids, cochlear implants. Some others 7 focus on sign language. Some focus on cued speech. 8 Some focus on tactile issues. Deaf people tend to 9 really rely on visual cues.10 Joe did a wonderful job in mentioning the 11 different technologies that we are able to use as of 12 September 11th and after. Joe explained that we are 13 happy to see captioning on television. And we are 14 generally pleased with what we see on the national 15 network broadcasts that provide captioning with their 16 news reports.17 However, a lot of local TV stations still 18 are not providing captioning for their local news 19 broadcasts. When we go to those local TV stations and 20 request for them to caption their local news because 21 if you know a lot of emergencies are happening in 22 local areas, especially in regards to homeland issues, 23 the local stations say, "We don't have enough 24 resources" and that "We are doing what we can."25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 113 He talked about what happened in New York 1 City. And on September 11th, the event happened in 2 New York City, but with an airport in Nebraska, if an 3 individual is flying out of Nebraska and the Nebraska 4 airport was closed or basically all of the flights 5 that day were cancelled, how would we get that 6 information?7 We would really depend on the captioning 8 of our local news station. And if we had seen that on 9 our local station, we wouldn't have made the drive to 10 our local airport. So some issues on a national level 11 are and become a local issue.12 As Joe also mentioned, with the sniper 13 situation, that again reflects the frustration that 14 the disabled community has because we know that they 15 had regulations in place. But having access to 16 regulations on paper is one thing, but enforcing those 17 regulations is definitely another.18 We filed complaints to the FCC about the 19 failure of five stations in this local area, in the 20 D.C. metro area, in regards to the sniper issue. We 21 continually filed complaints. And they ruled contrary 22 to our expectations. And so we filed complaint after 23 complaint. What happened is the FCC ended up 24 criticizing itself.25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 114 As the threat of terrorism increases, we 1 are going to experience these things again. But we as 2 a disabled community want full support. And we want 3 support from television stations and local businesses 4 to be ready for these kinds of situations.5 If there is a terrorist situation or a 6 national disaster, we want to be able to respond and 7 be informed as quickly and just as well as anybody 8 else in the community.9 We would like the FCC and the business 10 community and local organizations to be more 11 open-minded in new technologies that are available and 12 that can be used that can become a system of 13 redundancy for television devices, closed captioning 14 devices, 911 services.15 Like, for example, if the power goes out, 16 we can no longer rely on captioning from our 17 television. And neither can we rely on our computers 18 to gather information. But we still have two-way 19 pagers that we could use.20 If we try to place a call to our 911 21 service, we can't use our TTYs because the TTYs are 22 charged with electricity. If we have a battery, the 23 battery will last one, maybe two days, but that is it.24 To compound the problem, the 911 centers 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 115 themselves are not updated. Their equipment, their 1 platforms, their software platforms, are not updated.2 So as technology progresses, we are using 3 instant messenger. We are using two-way pagers. We 4 are using cell phones. We are using line phones, 5 internet services. But we only have access to the 911 6 centers if we use our TTY or out VCOs. We cannot use 7 our pages. We can't use our text telephones. We 8 don't have access to emergency services that way.9 So I think we need to work with the FCC 10 and work with other federal agencies to make sure that 11 the 911 centers receive enough funding to update their 12 technology and to maintain their accessibility to 13 everyone in our community in our time of need.14 I think I will stop there. Thank you.15 MODERATOR DUKE: Thank you, Claude.16 Brenda?17 MS. KELLY-FREY: Thank you for the 18 privilege of being able to speak to you this afternoon 19 about the homeland security summit. That is an issue 20 that is near and dear to my heart: Public safety.21 I've done a lot of training in the State 22 of Maryland with the 911 centers to make them 23 accessible and knowledgeable about accepting TTY relay 24 calls as well as making phone calls back to the deaf 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 116 consumers.1 And I am working with the public, the 2 police department, and so forth to make sure that they 3 understand how to communicate effectively with 4 individuals who are deaf and hard of hearing. So I 5 guess this is another reason why I am involved with 6 this particular issue at this point, not just relay 7 issues but other issues as well. My parents are both 8 deaf. So I have a vested interest in making sure that 9 they're safe as well as their friends.10 Dane Snowden on March 25th, he's the chief 11 of the consumer and governmental affairs. He said, "A 12 charge to homeland security should be for people with 13 disabilities to have a functionally equivalent 14 opportunity to survive." I think that was pretty 15 profound.16 He said, "We don't want to look back and 17 say that the FCC was asleep at the switch." I guess 18 that is literally and figuratively.19 I want you to be aware that many train 20 stations, subways, malls, shopping centers, strip 21 malls, and so forth, do not have TTY telephones. So 22 if there were to be an emergency, a deaf person 23 probably would not be able to communicate with family, 24 friends, or neighbors to find out what the emergency 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 117 is, if they got a page that said something was going 1 on, or to find out if their family and friends are 2 safe.3 What happens when there is an emergency 4 and a deaf or hard of hearing person is riding the 5 train or the subway? How are they going to get 6 evacuation information? What happens?7 What ends up happening right now is they 8 end up herding like little sheep and following all the 9 hearing people to someplace unknown because the 10 hearing people hear what is going on audibly but they 11 don't get the information.12 So the solution to this would be some kind 13 of a scrolling message throughout the train station, 14 throughout the trains, and so forth so that they know 15 how to be independent, what is going on, what the 16 nature of the emergency is, and what they should do.17 Relay, as far as relay, we need to have 18 telephoner service priority restoration of relay. If 19 there were to be a disaster, natural or manmade 20 disaster, and relay centers would go down, we want to 21 make sure that the relay centers are put back up in 22 operation at the same time that, say, the 911 centers 23 are put up so that when a deaf person wants to make a 24 phone call, they are able to do so because 911 is 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 118 their dial tone. Just like you and I pick up a phone, 1 it is our dial tone, relay is their dial tone.2 We need additional information and 3 education about speech to speech. We need to make 4 sure that the 911 centers are fully capable of 5 processing calls and handling calls from people who 6 are speech-disabled.7 There are people who sound perfectly 8 normal in their very beginning of their conversation. 9 When they are upset and excited, their voice, 10 speaking voice, deteriorates to the point where they 11 need the assistance of someone who will be able to 12 re-voice for them to make their message understood.13 Nine, one, one centers and so forth, 14 emergency personnel need to be aware of this. It 15 sounds like they're going to be speaking just fine in 16 the very beginning. And then, all of a sudden, 17 something happens and they are no longer able to 18 express themselves.19 We need to have backup generators at the 20 relay centers. I believe most of them do have that, 21 but we want to ensure that that is something that is 22 there in case the power were to go out.23 And while we're speaking of backup 24 generators, I believe that the captioning centers 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 119 should also have backup generators as well so that 1 their captioning will continue during emergency 2 situations.3 We would also like to encourage that there 4 be a backup plan filed with the FCC in case the relay 5 centers are not able to handle their own calls, that 6 there be some agreements among other TRS providers so 7 that their calls are then routed to other TRS 8 providers, a different company, to ensure that 9 individuals are able to still make telephone calls.10 There was a situation. It was a hurricane 11 in Florida. And there was a single provider for TRS 12 in Florida. And that center went down. The whole 13 State of Florida, their deaf and hard of hearing 14 population could not communicate at all because nobody 15 else was prepared. There was no agreement for another 16 vendor to take over the relay calls for that 17 particular state.18 So imagine yourself in that particular 19 situation involved in a hurricane wanting to call to 20 get some help to check on how long this is going to be 21 and not being able to make a phone call.22 Relay centers need to be able to handle 23 cellular calls so that they can handle cellular calls 24 to the relay and out to the 911 centers with the 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 120 ability to be able to locate the individual. If and 1 when our cellular phones are able to have some kind of 2 a call locator for the 911 centers to be able to 3 locate us, we want that to be true when they are 4 calling through the relay centers.5 We do suggest strongly that individuals 6 who are deaf and hard of hearing who rely on relay not 7 call relay when they have a 911 call. However, we all 8 know that in an emergency, you will be doing exactly 9 what you do on a daily basis to make your phone calls. 10 And that would be to pick up the phone and dial 711, 11 access relay, and say, "Please call 911 for me." So 12 we need to make sure that the calls are handled 13 properly.14 I believe that is about it unless there 15 are any questions.16 MODERATOR DUKE: Okay. We will come back 17 for questions in a moment. Now we have Ann from 18 National Association of Broadcasters.19 MS. BOBECK: I just want to give a little 20 overview of what is in the big picture of homeland 21 security that we hear in Washington. And in NAB and 22 others who are in the room have been actively 23 participating in, particularly the FCC.24 There is a thought that the emergency 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 121 alert system, which is built on a very dated 1 architecture technology-wise, is not sufficient to 2 encompass today's technological world, that we really 3 need to branch beyond near public safety avenues of 4 radio and television to cover how public safety 5 officers communicate to one another, how you can 6 communicate via the internet, how wireless and wire 7 line can be all part of a common protocol, an all 8 hazard warning system. If you think about it, there 9 are numerous ways and creative ways that we can 10 address these issues.11 Congress right now has pending legislation 12 for an all hazard warning system a national alert 13 system, to fund via the Department of Homeland 14 Security an all hazard warning system. I strongly 15 encourage as that legislation may or may not pass, but 16 it certainly as to DHS, the Department of Homeland 17 Security, is addressing these issues that the persons 18 in this room get actively involved and let them know 19 the needs of the disability communities.20 Another group that is very active in this 21 arena, the all hazard system warning arena, is the 22 Partnership for Public Warning. Their Web site is 23 www.partnershipforpublicwarning.org. They are very 24 actively looking to see. In fact, they have a report 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 122 from last year on a best practices protocol for 1 national homeland security disaster plans. They are 2 also very tied into not only the FCC, the DHS, but the 3 public safety network community on the ground in the 4 state and local jurisdictions.5 In addition, the FCC is rumored to have 6 been perhaps releasing a notice of inquiry or some 7 other similar vehicle in the near future to discuss 8 revamping the EAS system or asking, "What can we do to 9 encompass a broader spectrum of telecommunications 10 services?"; be it EAS or another system. So we will 11 wait and see how the FCC -- how that pans out here in 12 the next coming few weeks or months.13 Finally, the NOAA, the National Oceanic 14 Administration, and the Department of Homeland 15 Security yesterday had a press release announcing that 16 they have a memorandum of understanding for their NOAA 17 weather radio alerts. So if you see in the newspapers 18 today, as Joe pointed out, they have already hit the 19 press with details.20 And anyone who wants a copy of that press 21 release, I will be sure to give a copy to Shirley so 22 she can distribute to the group. That is very forward 23 thinking in terms of how do we get, at least for the 24 visually impaired, an ability to get a weather radio 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 123 out there. And thinking creatively in the future is 1 something that we can expand to video capacity.2 So those are just a number of issues. DHS 3 is definitely taking an active role in updating, 4 streamlining an all hazard alert. And I think it is 5 incumbent upon this group to be a participant in it.6 MODERATOR DUKE: Thank you, Ann. As you 7 can tell, this is a complex issue that involves 8 multiple areas of information distribution. And we 9 have not even today and won't have time today to even 10 talk about the redundancy issue, things that must be 11 built into the system. That is being discussed within 12 the workgroup as well.13 So for the time that we have left, we 14 would like to open the floor up for any questions or 15 discussion that any of you may have that relate to 16 this subject that would give the Committee a bit of an 17 indication of some possible directions to move in.18 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: I had one comment, 19 Mike. In listening to it and then going through the 20 summary of the summit, I noticed that there is a lot 21 of focus on the deaf and not as much focus on blind. 22 We haven't at all talked except one brief mention by 23 Ann about issues affecting people who are blind.24 Although I can't speak to that, really I 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 124 can tell you some of the things that are in this 1 summary that I thought were particularly fascinating 2 to me.3 I think, Ann, one comment here -- and 4 Scott and I were talking about this earlier -- a 5 number on a TV screen and an announcer saying, "Call 6 the number on your TV screen" just simply doesn't 7 work.8 MODERATOR DUKE: Right.9 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: So that is one of the 10 little things that people need to think about and that 11 needs to be concerned. That is so easy to correct, 12 but I don't think most of us think about it.13 That was one of the things I saw. Another 14 issue that was raised at the summit that I thought was 15 particularly intriguing -- and I don't know the answer 16 to how you do this, but there is research going on 17 constantly in the Department of Defense and in other 18 government agencies.19 Many or some of it may be applicable to 20 people with disabilities. For example, I learned from 21 Scott today that one of the early versions of Braille 22 was developed to help I think pilots. Was that right, 23 Scott?24 MR. MARSHALL: No. Napoleon's army.25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 125 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Napoleon's army. 1 Napoleon's army to communicate at night. And other 2 things have come out of some of the developments for 3 military, for example. So that is just another thing 4 to think about as to how those things might be useful.5 Anyway, I didn't mean to take up so much 6 time, but I just kind of felt compelled to make a 7 couple of comments here.8 MODERATOR DUKE: Yes. This is a very 9 thorough summary that was supplied to us thanks to Joe 10 by way of the Northern Virginia Resource Committee, is 11 it, Joe, for --12 MR. GORDON: Center.13 MODERATOR DUKE: Center. Northern 14 Virginia Resource Center for the Hard of Hearing. And 15 we appreciate them sharing that with us and allowing 16 us to use that. It is a very, very good, very 17 accurate summary of the meeting that occurred during 18 that day.19 Blindness issues certainly will be a part 20 of what we do as will any number of other disability 21 issues. There are some that are outside the parameter 22 of the group in some respects, like how do you get 23 people from point A to a shelter or whatever, but 24 other groups are working on that as well.25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 126 Any others?1 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: David has a question.2 MR. POEHLMAN: Not so much a question, but 3 the issue of homeland security is touching a lot of 4 diverse information-processing arms, I suppose, if you 5 will. In a group that I am working with, one of the 6 things that we are talking about is a way to provide 7 information in parallel modalities such that a couple 8 of things happen.9 One of them is that there are appropriate 10 modalities that will provide information for each 11 requirement for that modality, such as audible 12 information for people who require audible 13 information, visually provided text information for 14 those who require it, and other types of feedback and 15 processing as well.16 And one of the unique aspects to this that 17 would be addressed would be also appropriate 18 information for where you are. For example, there 19 could be a worldwide security alert system or 20 emergency alert system, but if I am in Copenhagen, I 21 don't really need to know what is going on in Helsinki 22 necessarily. But at the same time, if I am on North 23 Avenue and what is happening pertains specifically to 24 North Avenue, I need to know.25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 127 So this is the kind of thing and the kind 1 of complexity that we deal with when we talk about 2 alerting systems. And I think trains, malls, buses, 3 taxicabs, aircraft, public places of all kinds figure 4 into this.5 And there needs to be a very detailed, 6 very concerted, ground floor up effort to provide the 7 appropriate venue under the appropriate circumstances 8 in the appropriate geographic setting.9 MODERATOR DUKE: That issue was raised 10 this morning specifically as it applies to FM 11 translators and television transmitter translators 12 that are unattended and that often are fed by 13 satellite systems.14 An example was given where a county in 15 Utah and one in Alabama had the same name. And the 16 county in Utah got the flash flood warning for 17 Alabama, et cetera. So that issue is on the plate.18 I wasn't trying to cut you off, but --19 MR. POEHLMAN: No, no. That's fine. 20 That's about all I had.21 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Do we have any other? 22 Let me see. Susan Mazrui? Susan, go ahead.23 MS. PALMER-MAZRUI: I'm actually speaking 24 from a Vienna resident perspective, rather than 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 128 Cingular. I want to reiterate what Claude said about 1 the importance of having the ability to access local 2 information and looking at emergencies beyond the 3 initial tragedy or event.4 For example, today I might be able to tell 5 that there is a hurricane coming, but in the last 6 hurricane, I actually called the city to find out if 7 we could drink the water, was told it was okay. Then 8 it was later broadcast on television but not elsewhere 9 that I am aware of, not even a Web site, saying it was 10 not okay to drink the water.11 So those types of things also need to be 12 addressed when we are looking at emergency situations, 13 not just the grander major terrorist attack but the 14 long-term effects that affect. If we're sheltering in 15 place, if we're doing something because of a chemical 16 spill, or whatever, that type of information as well 17 needs to be accessible.18 MODERATOR DUKE: Right. It's not all 19 terrorist-related. The terrorist thing gets the 20 spotlight right now just because it's such a hot 21 topic. The intent of homeland security overall is to 22 go well beyond terrorism and cover any of this. It 23 does make it a complex issue.24 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Do we have one other 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 129 question? Did somebody have their hand up? No? 1 Claude?2 MR. STOUT: I want to make an additional 3 comment. David is correct in what he mentioned. Our 4 communication information system needs to be more 5 universal in how we access information on a daily 6 basis.7 For example, on our highways, there is a 8 visual massaging system that says if you have a car 9 wreck, dial 77 or if there happens to be an accident 10 somewhere on the road, call this number for the 11 police. I see the sign, and I can't call the police 12 myself. So the signs need to provide more information 13 on what is happening exactly on the road in front of 14 us.15 A lot of us here in this room depend on 16 listening to the radio as we drive in our cars. 17 That's audio communication. If we could get some sort 18 of textual support in combination with the radio, that 19 would help us.20 Our hope is that his working group on our 21 list of recommendations will recommend to the business 22 community to work with the disabled community in 23 developing new technologies that will ready us and 24 also help us to recover from disasters.25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 130 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: That's very 1 thoughtful comments, Claude. Thank you.2 We did take a few minutes extra because I 3 felt guilty that we had cut short the homeland 4 security presentation. I thank you for your 5 graciousness because we only had one shot at the 6 people from the truth in billing issues, but we are 7 going to. In our next meeting, we will be talking 8 about this at length. We will be working with the 9 working group to make certain that we give them 10 adequate time and that we can do whatever we can to 11 support them. So thank you again for your generosity 12 today.13 We are going to take a brief break because 14 we have some other people who want to make a couple of 15 comments. So if you could be back here sharply at a 16 quarter after, please? Thank you.17 (Whereupon, the foregoing matter went off 18 the record at 3:05 p.m. and went back on 19 the record at 3:16 p.m.)20 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Mr. Adelstein sends 21 his regrets. He's been very generous with his time in 22 coming and speaking to this group, but, unfortunately, 23 he was on the eastern shore today, and he's stuck in 24 traffic. He can't get back here. So, well, you know 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 131 Friday afternoons. At any rate, he sends his regrets 1 because he, as I said, has been very generous with 2 giving his time and coming to speak with us. So we'll 3 hope to see him in November.4 In addition to that, Susan Mazrui has 5 asked me for a couple of minutes, and then Scott needs 6 a couple of minutes. Am I right, Scott? No, we took 7 care of Scott. All right, okay. Susan, go ahead. 8 Put your hand up again.9 MS. PALMER-MAZRUI: I think it's because 10 I'm short, they can't see me. I am dismayed. I have 11 had the opportunity to meet with many commissioners 12 and their staff and have been very impressed with the 13 dedication they have toward making the FCC and the 14 comment process and everything involved as assessable 15 as possible for people with disabilities. But 16 recently, I've seen a change. Now, one of the things 17 that may be leading me to believe this is we did put 18 in comments. We made recommendations and asked for 19 status back. Well, maybe this meeting is too crowded 20 and we couldn't do it this time, and we'll get it next 21 time.22 But I've also noticed things in terms of 23 the accessibility of the meetings themselves, both 24 this meeting here and the meetings in between. For 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 132 one thing, not having access to documentation that's 1 on an ongoing basis like we've had in the past. For 2 example, if we're reviewing a document and need to 3 make comments, at least three of us can't do that. We 4 can't participate fully unless we have that access. 5 It's been there in the past, it's worked in the past, 6 it's not working now. And if you want participation 7 by people who are blind, and I honestly believe that 8 that's the case, the quality has to improve. You need 9 to get more immediate information.10 In addition to that, and this may be a 11 misinterpretation on my part, other people can 12 comment, I think it's been harder to try to schedule 13 meetings in between. We're trying to do 14 teleconferences, which I think aren't really 15 assessable for people who are deaf. And, finally, my 16 concern is that if we're having this much difficulty 17 in this meeting and we're guests of the FCC and 18 probably get some special attention, what happens when 19 we're outside? And the example that I can give is I 20 requested a document last month. To date, I don't 21 have that document in Braille. They have called me 22 back to say they've received it. They've been very 23 responsive, but the response isn't when anything is 24 going to be available. I don't know.25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 133 And had this occurred during a comment1 cycle, that would mean that I would either have to pay 2 a lot of money to personally have this done, or I 3 would have to not comment or file late, perhaps too 4 late to make an impact on the decisions. And I really 5 think that that's against the intent expressed by the 6 FCC as a whole. I know they're great people, not just 7 at the commissioner level and the staff level, but the 8 people I work with, and I'm just really very, very 9 concerned.10 I don't think it's a message that the FCC11 wants to convey. You know, it is the Federal 12 Communications Commission. They really set a good 13 example in the past, and I really hate to see it lost.14 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Susan, thank you, and 15 we're sensitive to the fact that there have been some 16 changes. I think Scott is going to address that for 17 just a minute.18 MS. PALMER-MAZRUI: And I would hope if19 David or Claude or Mike have some suggestions, I kind 20 of hogged the mike there, but please comment.21 MR. MARSHALL: Am I on? Okay, good. 22 Susan, thank you for your comment, and let me just 23 assure you that we want our meetings to continue to be 24 the model of accessibility that they have been in the 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 134 past. I was in your group this morning and, as you 1 know, we have had the loss of our in-house assessable 2 documents person quite recently, and we're trying to 3 work out those details. But all that having been 4 said, I hear your concern, and I hope you'll convey 5 it, and you have, and that we can work out these 6 difficulties and fill that position quickly, so we can 7 provide documents in a timely fashion, as we have 8 previously.9 But I am very much aware of the current challenges 10 that we're facing, given the fact that we've had to 11 use contractors and that sort of stuff, especially for 12 this meeting.13 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Susan had further 14 comment.15 MS. PALMER-MAZRUI: I just hope that ?-16 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Put your hand up.17 MS. PALMER-MAZRUI: I just hope that 18 people making the decision about the in-house and 19 whatever services that are occurring to provide access 20 understand that when they don't, it's like saying, 21 "Okay, now we're having a meeting, but all the blond 22 people better leave the room," or all the women or all 23 the people of certain colors. It's the same type of 24 situation, and it needs to be understood in that way, 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 135 as well.1 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Do you think that 2 this is something that we should comment on formally? 3 Scott, what would be the procedure for making sure 4 that notice is brought to the attention of the FCC 5 about this?6 MR. MARSHALL: Certainly, the committee is 7 welcome to write a letter, and I will certainly convey 8 this conversation to Dane. But you certainly are 9 welcome to write to him at any time with concerns, and 10 that can be done.11 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Susan, it might not 12 be a bad idea if you want to draft a letter and send 13 it to the, as a member of this committee, to send it 14 to Dane expressing your concerns. I think I'd put it 15 in writing, if you don't mind doing that, or an e-16 mail.17 MS. PALMER-MAZRUI: I'd be happy to do 18 that, and I'll ask some help from other members. But 19 just as an advisory, because I think it's not the 20 intent of the group, by any means.21 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: I don't believe it is 22 either. I think it's circumstances that are dictating 23 what have happened here, rather than loss of interest 24 or wanting to make this assessable to everyone. I 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 136 mean, that's my own personal observation. David has a 1 comment. We're going to have to move it along because 2 I don't want to take time. We've got a presentation 3 from David Brugger coming up, so David?4 MR. POEHLMAN: I just wanted to mention 5 that -? Dave Poehlman with the American Council of the 6 Blind. I just wanted to mention that, this morning, 7 for example, we were told that we didn't receive a 8 document because it wasn't assessable, it wasn't 9 available in an assessable format. And, you know, my 10 feeling is that, you know, the whole committee 11 shouldn't be denied a document just because, you know, 12 some of us might not be able to process it. If the 13 only format it's available in is a format that's not 14 the best format in the world, then we should be made 15 aware of that and then provided with a document, and 16 somebody can find someway to process and get it to 17 those who need an assessable form.18 I think we're willing to help, and I don't 19 think Susan meant to imply that you're going to lose 20 blind people's support and participation, but what we 21 will lose with this committee is effective 22 participation by those of us who require assessable, 23 alternate formats.24 And I just have one more short little 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 137 thing. If we could somehow get some kind of response, 1 impression of the things that we requested be looked 2 into from the modernization, from the FCC 3 modernization subgroup, it would be helpful because we 4 would like to move forward and we would like to work 5 with the FCC to put some of these things in place that 6 we brought out and that were recommended through the 7 entire CAC. So that's what Susan was referring to in 8 the first part of her message.9 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Okay. Thank you, 10 David. Andrea, one fast comment, and we've got to 11 move on.12 MS. WILLIAMS: In that letter, one quick 13 thing that I would like to add, I'm very concerned, 14 particularly of individuals who are blind, trying to 15 participate in open proceedings where there are 16 deadlines that need to be faced that the Commission 17 have ?- you know, believe me, I understand with 18 contractors, these things happen, but additional time 19 be given those individuals who are waiting for 20 documents, particularly in rulemaking proceedings, 21 complaint proceedings, that they be given additional 22 time to submit their comments and should be able to 23 file late.24 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Thank you. I 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 138 appreciate that. Claude, you have one comment, if it's 1 brief, please.2 MS. STOUT: Yes, Shirley. I would like to 3 make a suggestion to you, Shirley, as our chair, 4 before every meeting or before each workgroup meets to 5 make sure that all accessibility support is being 6 provided. Otherwise, we can't have these meetings, or 7 we can't have our working group meetings because if 8 there's accessibility provided to the deaf, 9 accessibility needs to be provided to the blind, no 10 less, no more.11 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: You're absolutely 12 right. As far as your working groups are concerned, 13 I'm afraid that my time just doesn't permit me to do 14 that. I would have to leave it up to the working 15 groups to address that issue with the Commission if 16 it's necessary. But as far as the regular meetings, I 17 will convey to Dane the concerns that you've 18 expressed. And I think your letters, your e-mails, or 19 however you wish to communicate with him, would also 20 be useful in expressing that. But as I understand it, 21 this is a matter of not lack of support but lack of a 22 person who left that has not been replaced yet. So as 23 far as I can tell, I'm hoping that, by November, this 24 will be resolved. Is that correct? Am I right on 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 139 that, Scott?1 MR. MARSHALL: No one would hope more than 2 I this will be resolved by November.3 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Yes, exactly. At any 4 rate, we will do everything we possibly can to make 5 sure that this situation doesn't occur again. So, 6 anyway, and I really appreciate your comments on it. 7 Thank you.8 Now, we've got a presentation from David Brugger, who 9 is with the broadband working group, and he's going to 10 bring us up-to-date on what they're doing. We're not 11 going to be asking for a vote by the committee today, 12 but we do have some other.13 But before we do that, I have got to find14 out who needs taxis for this afternoon? Let me see 15 the hands. We've got one, two, three, four. All 16 right. Is anyone going to Nashville? Who's going to 17 Nashville? Only one, Cindy Cox. So we'll have four 18 cabs then, okay? All right. We need four cabs here 19 at 4:15, 4:10, thereabouts. Yes, about 4:15. Does 20 that work? Okay, 4:00? We'll probably be out by 21 4:00. Yes, I think so.22 Okay, all right. Moving right along. Was 23 there anybody else that I was supposed to recognize 24 for comments? Debra?25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 140 MS. BERLYN: Very quickly. We discussed 1 this in our consumer outreach working group today, and 2 I promised that I would bring it up before this full 3 group. We're not sure where it actually fits in, but 4 I would like to have some sort of task group or 5 working group or subworking group, subcommittee take a 6 look at the process that the FCC is going to undertake 7 to rewrite the local competition access rules 8 following the DC Circuit Court decision. And I'm not 9 sure what our timing will be like, but, as Shirley has 10 explained, what I was hoping is that we might get some 11 sort of task group together shortly, work on it, and I 12 guess aim for our November meeting for some sort of 13 action.14 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: We'd have to bring it 15 before the full committee before we could make 16 presentations, so that's why it would have to be in 17 November. Whether or not that's going to be timely or 18 not, I don't know. I suggest that anyone who's 19 interested in doing this contact Debra. We just don't 20 really have time right now to do that.21 MS. BERLYN: That's fine.22 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: I would also like to 23 say that in the broadband discussion group this 24 morning, they are going to look at the issue of 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 141 digital television. And anyone who would like to 1 participate in that broadband group, please let them 2 know and join them. You can do that by e-mail to 3 Scott. He can make sure he puts you on the list for 4 the braodband group, as well, because we are going to 5 be looking at digital. We are going to do that over a 6 period of some months, I think.7 So, anyway, I'm sorry, David. Go ahead. 8 David Brugger.9 MR. BRUGGER: The broadband working group 10 has been discussing a list of items, which I know were 11 sent out by Scott Marshall to you, and it's issues of 12 concerns to consumers. There are 11 different areas 13 that we've identified of concern to consumers so far, 14 and I won't go through them all because you've 15 received that document having to do with consumer 16 choice, consumer complaints and problem solving, 911 17 safety emergency services, disability access, access 18 to content, full disclosure of technology and 19 services, broadband transport and choice of ISP, law 20 enforcement, privacy, rates, and rural broadband 21 networks.22 We've been using a template to first 23 create a statement or a definition of a consumer 24 broadband issue. Secondly, we've been adding relevant 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 142 and supporting facts. And, thirdly, we plan to move 1 to working group points of view on each issue.2 For example, if you look at the second 3 one, consumer complaints and problem solving, there is 4 a statement of what that issue is and addressing how 5 that might be handled. The relevant and supporting 6 facts were added to explain how varoius government 7 agencies handle consumer complaints and solve 8 problems. For example, federal agencies, such as the 9 Federal Trade Commission and Consumer Product Safety 10 Commission do not mediate or resolve individual 11 consumer complaints. So we summarized information 12 about how they do handle that issue.13 Then we looked at how the FCC handles it, 14 how state and local consumer affair agencies handle 15 those issues, how state government agencies, like 16 consumer protection departments and attorney general 17 offices handle those, looking at how local government 18 consumer affairs agencies do that. We bring these 19 statements to you today not with all of the relevant 20 facts and things we've collected so far, but, 21 basically, to look at what we've been doing, the fact 22 that we think there's no other FCC activity asking 23 consumer reps what they think about these issues. And 24 we thought that you should be involved in this process 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 143 in terms of identifying the most comprehensive list of 1 issues that we could have concerning broadband and 2 what consumers, what consumers' concerns are about 3 that. We believe it would be good for the FCC to have 4 a primer of what consumers are thinking and on this 5 committee's view of what people are thinking about 6 broadband in terms of their issues.7 Just to give you an idea of some of the 8 questions we've been asking ourselves, and we think 9 that we want you to consider with us, is what issues 10 are not here that ought to be here? What issues are 11 here that maybe you think don't belong on the list of 12 consumer issues?13 Once we have a list of all these issues 14 that the CAC believes should be on the list, do you 15 have recommendations about what the next steps ought 16 to be with those issues? Should we be working toward 17 action recommendations for the FCC? Is it just enough 18 to make sure that the FCC has a list of issues about 19 which we think they should be aware? Can this list of 20 issues serve as a background for the FCC as a working 21 document to address issues of concerns to consumers 22 concering broadband? Does this simply become part of 23 the record of the CAC in that it lays out the concerns 24 of consumers as we see them and as their 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 144 representatives? Is it possible that each of these 1 issues could be a purpose for other working groups, 2 assuming this Consumer Advisory Committee continues 3 over the next two years? Maybe each could be part of 4 a study or an action plan.5 If you have questions about that, we have6 people here who can answer those questions. But we're 7 more concerned about whether you have anything to 8 contribute to the process that we're going through, 9 whether you have issues about broadband that might be 10 of concern to consumers that you could contribute for 11 the consideration of our working group.12 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: David, would it be 13 useful in the discussions that you're going to have 14 over the next coming months before our next meeting, 15 would it be useful to circulate to all of the 16 committee memebers the comments and things that you 17 all are doing? I mean, in other words, make everybody 18 kind of a submember of the broadband working group and 19 putting them on your e-mail list, as well as the 20 regular subcommittee group? It's Friday afternoon, 21 and I can't talk.22 MR. BRUGGER: They have a list of the 23 statements of what the issues are currently.24 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Okay.25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 145 MR. BRUGGER: And I guess the question is 1 is there something there that should be there that's 2 not there.3 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: So what you're asking 4 for is for us to provide comments to you before 5 November, right?6 MR. BRUGGER: Right.7 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Okay. So I'm sorry, 8 I just wanted clarification. Go ahead.9 MR. BRUGGER: Okay. Dave Poehlman.10 MR. POEHLMAN: Thanks. And also I think 11 if people in the room have particular expertise that 12 they can lend to the development process moving 13 forward because this is such a tremendous undertaking 14 or could be such a tremendous undertaking, that would 15 be helpful, too, if you feel that you have something 16 you can contribute, not just whether or not there's an 17 issue or do you have an issue or is there an issue 18 that shouldn't be here, but, "Oh, I'm looking at this 19 issue, and it's right up my alley. I know a lot about 20 this. I've studied this for 20 years. Let me get 21 involved in this." Okay. Please, you know, come to 22 us. We're very happy to work with people who have 23 expertise in the various matters. So, you know, so 24 we're looking forward to that.25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 146 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Do we have any other 1 comments? David, is that ?-2 MR. BRUGGER: It's open for discussion or 3 comments or anything they can contribute.4 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: They've put, I can 5 tell you this group has been working so hard. They 6 put so much effort into what they've been doing. 7 There's been a lot of thought and a lot of discussion 8 because I get the e-mails from everybody, and I know 9 they've been working very, very hard. So I'm hoping 10 that you will take a look at these issues and give 11 them your input. I think it's very important that we 12 all give input, keeping in mind that we're going to be 13 discussing this in November, so you need to be up to 14 snuff on it so that you can give your opinions. Does 15 anybody have any questions or comments? Okay. Hold 16 your hand up again. They've missed you.17 MS. CLECKNER: Annette with MCI. David, I 18 was just wondering did you include universal service 19 issues in your list of issues here? I don't see it 20 right off. I didn't know if you like lumped it 21 together in one of these 11.22 MS. BURNSTEIN: I think that it was part 23 of the discussion under the rural broadband networks. 24 It was part of what was in there, but if it should be 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 147 elsewhere, as well, you know, let us know.1 MR. BRUGGER: Thank you, Annette.2 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Okay. Any other 3 questions or comments? All right. Last chance. 4 Going one, two. It's Friday afternoon after all. It's 5 late in the day, right? I've been vacationing most of 6 this week. What am I doing back here working? At any 7 rate, okay, then we will hope that you'll give input 8 to the group before the November meeting, reading all 9 the issues. And since we have just a couple of 10 minutes, Debra, maybe we should go back and ask people 11 if they want to form a task force. We've got about 12 five minutes before we have the public comments 13 section. Do you want to do that now? Why don't we 14 just do it now? We've got time. It will save you 15 some e-mails.16 MS. BERLYN: Yes. I guess the thing to do 17 at this point is to see if there are other members of 18 the CAC who are interested in doing that and, if so, 19 we will form a group and start to meet over the course 20 of the summer and early fall.21 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: All right. What kind 22 of interest do we have in doing this? This would be 23 to provide information to the FCC on what we believe 24 should be some considerations in the rulemaking 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 148 process.1 MS. BERLYN: Yes. And I realize I've been 2 giving it very short, you know, the code name, the DC 3 Circuit Court case, but a lot of folks may not realize 4 what the implications of that are. So very briefly, 5 the FCC released an order in early 2003. It was 6 called the Tri-Annual Review Order, and it basically 7 laid the rules for competitors' access to the local 8 network in order for those competitors to offer 9 services to consumers, competitive services to 10 consumers.11 Those rules were overturned by the DC 12 Circuit in early March, and now the FCC will be13 rewriting those rules. So it basically governs 14 consumers' access to local competitive services.15 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Okay. So does that 16 push somebody's button? Are you interested in 17 participating in doing this? Oh, we've got hands. 18 All right. Let's take notes and sign them up. Who 19 have we got here? We've got Annette, Cindy, Chris, 20 and Joy. Anyone else? Okay. Scott will send an e-21 mail to the entire committee asking for interested in 22 joining, and he'll set up an e-mail list for you so 23 that it will make life easy. He does that for us, you 24 know. And anything else that we need to do on that? 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 149 Well, thank you, Debra. I'm pleased that we've set up 1 an ?- Andrea?2 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. I'm going to ask you 3 another question. It's more of an administrative.4 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Well, we're through 5 with that. Let's move on.6 MS. WILLIAMS: Andrea Williams from CTI. 7 Shirley, just from an administrative standpoint, I 8 know November will be this committee's last meeting. 9 How do you want to handle -? I know you don't want to 10 be overwelmed with every working group having 11 recommendations. How do you want to handle that in 12 terms of particularly some of us who will be working 13 over the summer? Do you want written recommendations 14 submitted by a certain time? That would be helpful to 15 know so we can plan accordingly.16 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Yes, that's a very 17 good question, Andrea, and we are sensitive to the 18 time issues. We probably, of course, won't have a 19 working group meeting that day, so we'll have the 20 entire day to deal with the issues that we feel are 21 important. What I would like, if you can do it, for 22 any of your working groups, it would be excellent if 23 you could suggest and submit, circulate a document 24 that has some of the things that you're considering. 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 150 This doesn't have to be the final document or the 1 final recommendations, but it could be what you're 2 thinking is as you go over the summer doing this work, 3 letting everyone know. Do you think that would work, 4 Scott? Yes.5 MR. MARSHALL: We would need to know if 6 there's going to be recommendations six weeks out.7 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Okay. Did you hear 8 that? The FCC needs to know six weeks out if there's 9 going to be recommendations presented.10 MR. MARSHALL: Right. And that's only to 11 get it into the federal register.12 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: That's to put it in 13 the federal register. Right, that's not Scott's rule, 14 he tells me. I don't know if I believe that or not. 15 But at any rate, yes, so about what? The first of 16 October?17 MR. MARSHALL: Yes.18 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Yes, approximately 19 the first of October, it would be necessary to know 20 from the working groups if you are going to make 21 recommendations to the committee that we would vote on 22 in the November meeting. So we will be doing a lot of 23 stuff.24 MS. WILLIAMS: So circulating really the 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 151 first week of September or right after --1 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: If you could start 2 circulating things in early September or even August, 3 if you've progressed that much, so that we'd have time 4 to give input to what you're doing.5 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay.6 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: And just let Scott 7 know that you want these circulated to the entire 8 committee for comment, and that would work. Yes, we 9 want you to work on Labor Day is what David is saying. 10 It's called Labor Day. Why should you have a day of 11 rest, for goodness sakes? Okay. I think that takes 12 care of most of our business. Anything you need, of 13 course you can call us or e-mail us. Thank you all so 14 much. I can't tell you how exciting it is to be part 15 of this group because you all are doing some great 16 things. I'm just very, very thrilled with it.17 At any rate, now it's time for our public18 comment section, and I believe we have someone who 19 wants to make a public comment. If you would 20 introduce yourself, please.21 MR. CREAGAN: Yes. My name is Tim 22 Creagan. I'm the Director of Consumer Training for the 23 ITAC project. My name may be familiar to those of you 24 who've looked inside your packets and seen the 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 152 brochure. The reason I'm bringing this up, I'm 1 working for a project that's funded by NIDRR, the 2 National Institute on Disability and Rehabilitation 3 Research. And one of the things that we have put 4 together is a compendium of all the disability laws in 5 the United States. Included in here are, obviously, 6 Section 255 of the Telecommunications Act and Section 7 508 of the Rehab Act. These materials are available 8 for anyone for free in any quantity you would want 9 them.10 As Director of Consumer Training, I've had 11 the opportunity to travel around the United States and 12 present to consumer groups on what their rights and 13 obligations are under Section 255 of the Telecom Act 14 and under Section 508 of the Rehab Act, and I've had 15 the opportunity to share some of that with FCC staff. 16 One thing that comes out is that more information is 17 always good. It's really surprising how many people 18 are not that aware of 255 and how many people are not 19 aware that they need to speak up.20 As members of this committee, I think that 21 you would be very interested in this, and I think this 22 would be an excellent resource for you to take back to 23 each of your various constituencies. If any of you 24 have any questions, you have my contact information, 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 153 and I would be very happy to discuss the materials 1 with you.2 These are funded by our government and the3 whole purpose is to have an engaged and informed 4 citizenry. Thank you.5 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Thank you very much, 6 Tim. We appreciate your taking the time to come here. 7 It's a very impressive-looking brochure. I like the 8 free beside all those things.9 MR. CREAGAN: Yes, that's our government 10 at work.11 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Very much so. That's 12 exactly right. But at any rate, thank you. We 13 appreciate your being here. Do we have any other 14 public comments from anyone? Are there any concerns 15 that you all have that we might need to discuss in the 16 ten minutes before you get to run out the door? I 17 mean, you know, you can either talk or sit here and 18 look at each other. They did not lock the doors. I 19 swear we can get out.20 (Laughter.)21 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: At any rate, all 22 right. Well, then I think we're ten minutes early 23 today. My goodness. You all have behaved admirably. 24 Thank you so much. Have a wonderful summer. We'll 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 154 look forward to hearing from you. Susan, I have to 1 thank you again. You were not here when I thanked you 2 for the wonderful food, but she's saying be sure to 3 leave your badges, along with your things. Yes, don't 4 take your badges with you. We do recycle. And Susan, 5 again, I'd like to thank you. Lunch and breakfast 6 were excellent, so Cingular was very nice.7 By the way, we need somebody to pay for 8 November's lunch and breakfast. Do we have somebody 9 volunteering? Somebody's going to volunteer. We're 10 going to lock the door until you do. All right. I'll 11 go scrounge up money for food. Thank you very much.12 I'll send an e-mail. You won't get out of it.13 (Whereupon, the foregoing matter was 14 concluded at 3:49 p.m.)15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24