NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 1 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA + + + + + FEDERAL COMMUNICATIONS COMMISSION + + + + + CONSUMER ADVISORY COMMITTEE MEETING + + + + + FRIDAY, MARCH 26, 2004 + + + + + The meeting was held in Commission Meeting Room TW-C305, 445 12th Street, S.W., Washington D.C., at 9:00 a.m., Shirley Rooker, Chairperson, presiding. COMMITTEE MEMBERS PRESENT: SHIRLEY ROOKER, CAC Chairperson, Call for Action SCOTT MARSHALL, CAC Designated Federal Officer CHRIS BAKER, AARP MATTHEW D. BENNETT, Alliance for Public Technology DAVID POEHLMAN, American Council for the Blind MICHAEL F. DELCASINO, AT&T CINDY COX, Bell South DAVID BRUGGER, Brugger Consulting ANDREA WILLIAMS, Cellular Telecommunications and Internet Association SUSAN PALMER-MAZRUI, Cingular Wireless DEBRA BERLYN, Consumer Policy Consulting JIM CONRAN, Consumers First Incorporated CLAUDE STOUT, Deaf and Hard of Hearing Consumer Action Network MIKE DUKE, Interests of the Blind or Visually Impaired DONALD SNOOP, Hometown Online JOSEPH GORDON, League for the Hard of Hearing THOMAS ALLIBONE, LTC Consulting/Teletruth ANNETTE CLECKNER, MCI LARRY GOLDBERG, Media Access Group, WGBH NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 2 COMMITTEE MEMBERS PRESENT: (cont'd) MARSHA MACBRIDE, National Association of Broadcasters RONALD MALLARD, National Association of Consumer Agency Administrators BRENDA KELLY-FREY, National Association of State Relay Administration SUSAN GRANT, National Consumers League DIANE BURSTEIN, National Cable Telecommunications Association BYRON ST. CLAIR, National Translator Association MARK PRANGER, Interests of Academia and Rural Telecommunications Services VERNON JAMES, San Carlos Apache Telecommunications Utility, Inc EUGENE SEAGRIFF, Telecommunications Industry Association RICHARD T. ELLIS, Verizon Communications LINDA WEST, Interests of the Native America Community and Rural Services RICHARD MITLER, NASUCA PATTI LIPTROT-BANNIER, Hamilton Telephone Company ALSO PRESENT: JONATHAN ADELSTEIN, FCC, Bureau of Consumer Issues JEFFREY CARLISLE, Wireline Competition Bureau JANE LAWTON, Cable Communications Administrator ELIZABETH NOEL, People's Counsel, District of Columbia LOUIS SIGALOS, Consumer Affairs and Outreach Division, CGB BROOKE SCHULZ, Vice President, Corporate Communications, Vonage JUNE TAYLOR, CGB CHRYS WILSON, Maryland Public Service Commission THOMAS WYATT, Deputy Bureau Chief, CGB NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 3 A-G-E-N-D-A PAGE I. Welcome and Call to Order 4 II. Meeting Logistics 4 III. Introduction of the Chairman and 6 Commissioners IV. FCC Update -- V. Overview of the Quarterly 23 Inquiries and Complaints Report VI. Working Group Breakout Sessions 47 VII. Lunch Presentation: Voice 48 Over Internet Protocol VIII. Recommendations Regarding 88 Electronic Access to the FCC IX. Review of Pending VoIP 126 Rulemaking Proceeding X. Panel Discussion: Partnering 152 with State and Local Consumer Affairs Agencies XI. Comments from the Public; 191 Wrap-Up; Future Meetings XII. Adjournment 199 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 4 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S1 (9:12 a.m.)2 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: I see that our3 recording service is up and running now. I am going 4 to move on and let Scott give you some of the 5 logistics of the meeting, and then we're going to hear 6 from June Taylor. So, Scott? Here you go. Let me 7 give you a mike.8 MR. MARSHALL: All right. Good morning, 9 everyone. Welcome. It's good to see you all again, 10 and I'm sure I'll have a chance to say hello at some 11 point during the course of the day.12 As you know, restrooms are right outside 13 the doors you came in, down a short corridor to your 14 left. And if you do not make that left and continue 15 down that corridor, two of the breakout sessions will 16 be in that general vicinity. We'll give you the room 17 numbers, and so forth, at the time of the breakout 18 sessions at 10:00.19 Just a couple of housekeeping matters. 20 Because of interference issues, we can only operate 21 two assisted listening device systems simultaneously. 22 For the breakouts, I've had one request for the 23 Consumer Complaints and Outreach Group. Does anyone 24 else need an assisted listening device in one of the 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 5 breakout sessions? 1 Okay. Jeff, I hope you got that 2 information, so you can go ahead and set up for the 3 Consumer Complaints Group down the hall.4 Also, in your packets is an emergency 5 contact information sheet. We'd appreciate your 6 filling that out and giving it to me or one of the 7 other FCC staff during the course of the day. 8 As you know, we had a shelter-in-place 9 drill here during the November meeting. That was very 10 successful, and we'd like to have an emergency contact 11 for you, in the unfortunate event that we would ever 12 have to use it. And as you can well imagine, having 13 that information is certainly critical and can be 14 very, very important if you do have to use it.15 We will be also sending around an 16 attendance sheet during the course of the day. Please 17 sign that sheet for us, and that will make sure that 18 we have you on record as attending this meeting. 19 And I think that's all I have at the 20 moment, Shirley.21 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Okay. Thank you very 22 much, Scott.23 Where is Jeff Tignor?24 MR. TIGNOR: Right here.25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 6 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Hi, Jeff.1 MR. TIGNOR: Hi.2 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: He was trying to meet 3 me earlier. I apologize, Jeff. Would you stand up so 4 everyone can see you? Thank you. We welcome you. 5 Yes, welcome.6 (Applause.)7 I'm going to turn the microphone over to 8 June Taylor. 9 Unfortunately, Dane Snowden sends his 10 regrets that he will not be able to be with us this 11 morning. A close family member has died, and he is 12 taking care of his family and attending some services 13 this morning. So he sends his regrets, but he has 14 sent a delightful person to speak to us instead.15 June Taylor -- I always tease her and ask 16 her if she is the dancer. She assures me that that 17 was in another life. At any rate, please join me in 18 welcoming June Taylor.19 (Applause.)20 MS. TAYLOR: Thank you, Shirley. And if 21 anybody saw me walking up here, we're fortunate we 22 didn't see me trip. So if that's any indication of my 23 dancing abilities.24 Again, I do send Dane's regrets that he is 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 7 unable to attend today. He very much was looking 1 forward to seeing you all and welcoming you to the 2 first meeting of the new year. And also, he wanted to 3 very much congratulate you for all of the hard work of 4 your working groups and of the committee during this 5 past year. 6 You've put together a tremendous --7 tremendously helpful body of recommendations for the 8 Commission, and of particular note is the 9 recommendation that you put together in November for 10 the Homeland Security Disability Summit that we held 11 yesterday.12 Yesterday's summit, for those of you who 13 were able to attend, was very well received, very well 14 attended, and some really great issues did come out in 15 those discussions. In the summit, Dane did put a call 16 out. Well, first of all, he, of course, thanked the 17 committee for its recommendations, and he also put a 18 call out, because, you know, a thank-you alone is not 19 enough. He is going to hit you up for more work.20 He did put a call out for this committee 21 and for the Intergovernmental Advisory Committee to 22 also look into this issue further, perhaps put 23 together some recommendations for the Commission to 24 act upon. So I hope that you all are up for the task. 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 8 I'm sure that you are.1 Something else that he wanted to make sure 2 that you knew about is our upcoming disability 3 solution summit on May 7th. You are going to hear 4 today from Jeff Carlisle, and you're also going to see 5 a demonstration on VoIP.6 Since our last meeting in November, the 7 Commission adopted and released an IP-enabled services 8 NPRM. And to address the issues related to ensuring 9 disability access, E911 services, and law enforcement 10 functions, the chairman announced three solution 11 summits. We recently held the 911 solution summit on 12 March 18th, and we have the upcoming disability 13 solution summit on May 7th. And we hope that you are 14 able to participate and join us for that very 15 important meeting.16 I won't dally, because I know you have a 17 long day ahead of you. But one thing that I did not 18 need to be reminded by Dane to do, and that is to 19 thank all of you for your hard work, but also to thank 20 Shirley for her tremendous leadership, and to thank 21 her for her generosity for underwriting the cost of 22 Rebecca's travels, and really hope that you can follow 23 in her leadership and hopefully help in this very 24 important assistance. We appreciate it.25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 9 So I also got word this morning that the 1 chairman is unable to attend this morning, and he does 2 send his regrets and hopes that you guys have a great 3 meeting today. You have a lot of work ahead of you, 4 so let's get started.5 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Thank you very much, 6 June.7 (Applause.)8 And that leads right -- Claude?9 MR. STOUT: If I might, to June, if I 10 could?11 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: June, do you mind? 12 I'm sorry. Let's take some questions here.13 MR. STOUT: Thank you. Thank you, 14 Shirley. I appreciate that.15 Hi, June. My name is Claude Stout. I'm 16 with Telecommunications for the Deaf, Incorporated. 17 And, first, I just wanted to thank you for hosting a 18 disability summit. I was there yesterday -- the 19 disability summit on homeland security and emergency 20 preparedness. The summit yesterday was very 21 productive and really left us with many more questions 22 than answers, but together we'll work on those and 23 move forward.24 I also wanted to compliment you and Dane 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 10 and others for planning the May 7th outreach solutions 1 summit, and I would like to just make a comment in 2 regards to that. And if you could pass on this 3 message from the disability community.4 We would like Dane to investigate hosting 5 a VRS forum here in the FCC as soon as possible. And 6 one suggestion would be if Dane or other FCC 7 Commissioners feel like it's -- it wouldn't be 8 appropriate to host that forum here at the FCC, but to 9 maybe, you know, find any outstanding VRS. And when I 10 talk about VRS, it's Video Relay Services -- those 11 issues and to maybe discuss those through a rulemaking 12 procedure.13 And if you went ahead with a rulemaking 14 procedure, you -- I would hope you would involve all 15 of the parties that have interest there, people who 16 aren't here, people who are here, people throughout 17 the United States to have input into those issues. 18 And as you collect those comments from us on VRS, then 19 you will have a broader picture and a more indepth 20 understanding of the issues and the solutions for the 21 VRS issues. And so that's -- I just wanted to make 22 that comment to you this morning.23 MS. TAYLOR: No, I appreciate that. And 24 if I recall, I think the committee did make a 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 11 recommendation in November for something similar to a 1 summit on VRS, if I'm not mistaken. I know that is 2 before the Commission right now. It is -- it was 3 filed as a comment into the record. 4 We do have a rulemaking, and so not only 5 just the committee but others are welcome to file 6 comments on that particular issue or other issues 7 related to VRS and TRS. We certainly do want to hear 8 from as many people as possible and to have as full a 9 record as possible. So we hope that you are able to 10 file comments into the record.11 Brenda?12 MR. STOUT: The reason why I would like to 13 have the rulemaking take place would be some rules 14 that we -- we want to know if those rules are going to 15 be proposed, so that we can know what they are and be 16 able to discuss the issues, and to be able to see if, 17 you know, we agree with you on those rules or not.18 And we want to have, you know, a more 19 meaningful dialogue between the FCC and us as 20 consumers on those issues. So thank you.21 MS. TAYLOR: Absolutely. Thank you.22 Hi, Brenda.23 MS. KELLY-FREY: Good morning. Am I on? 24 Can you hear me now? Sounds like a commercial, huh?25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 12 Okay. Good morning. I am Brenda Kelly-1 Frey, and I represent the NASRA group, which is the 2 National Association of State Relay Administration. 3 And yesterday I searched on the ECFS for comments or 4 recommendations from the Consumer Advisory Council on 5 telecommunications relay services in both 97-67 and 6 03-123, and they weren't there.7 Is there anybody that could confirm that 8 our work was put into the docket? And, if so, what 9 date? Because my understanding is is that the FCC 10 can't consider our recommendations unless they are 11 part of the record. And I know that policy is being 12 developed now, if not already, but I -- I just kind of 13 want to follow up on that for my working group.14 MS. TAYLOR: Oh, absolutely.15 MS. KELLY-FREY: Okay.16 MS. TAYLOR: It was filed by the working 17 group, or was it filed by the committee?18 MS. KELLY-FREY: It was -- well, the 19 working group made recommendations to the full CAC at 20 our November meeting. And then, the CAC voted all in 21 favor of our recommendations, and then that's where it 22 stopped.23 MS. TAYLOR: It was my understanding that 24 it was filed. Let me -- Scott probably can speak to 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 13 that.1 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Scott has a comment 2 on that.3 MS. KELLY-FREY: Okay.4 MR. MARSHALL: Yes. Hi, Brenda. That 5 troubles me a lot, and we will certainly check it out. 6 The comments were filed in 03-123, and they were also 7 forwarded to the appropriate staff that are working on 8 that topic. So I think we're covered, but I'm -- I 9 think it's curious that you didn't find an ECFS, and 10 I'll definitely check that out.11 We do that shortly after the committee 12 meeting takes place, and we submit it with a cover 13 letter from Shirley as an ex parte communication. So 14 if something went awry, we'll take care of it. But be 15 assured, though, that the staff working on the TRS 16 issue is aware of those comments, because I -- I 17 delivered those personally.18 MS. KELLY-FREY: I'm certain that you did 19 everything in your power. I just want to make sure 20 that -- you know, that the ball is not dropped and 21 that it keeps rolling and rolling, because these 22 issues are so very, very important and critical to 23 telecommunications relay.24 MR. MARSHALL: Absolutely.25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 14 MS. KELLY-FREY: Yes.1 MR. MARSHALL: We'll check into it --2 MS. KELLY-FREY: Thank you.3 MR. MARSHALL: -- and I'll let you know.4 MS. KELLY-FREY: All right. Thank you.5 MS. TAYLOR: Thank you, Brenda.6 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Thank you, Brenda.7 Do we have other questions or comments for 8 June?9 Well, June --10 MS. TAYLOR: Okay.11 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: -- thank you.12 MS. TAYLOR: Thank you. While I'm up 13 here, I wanted to introduce to you Commissioner 14 Jonathan Adelstein. He has been a strong supporter of 15 our Bureau of Consumer Issues and of this committee.16 So, welcome.17 (Applause.)18 MR. ADELSTEIN: Thanks, June. And good 19 morning, everybody. We are really glad that you could 20 be here today. It's an impressive group, and we 21 really appreciate your input into consumer issues. We 22 want to make sure that we keep a consumer-friendly 23 approach to everything that we do here, and keep 24 consumers in mind first in every action that we take.25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 15 All of the Commissioners here are so 1 pleased that you have given the input that you have, 2 and I wanted to say that -- I know Dane is out today 3 -- on behalf of all of us on the eighth floor, how 4 much we appreciate your input.5 We need this kind of dialogue. We need 6 the participation of all of you and the input from 7 consumers directly into what we're doing. I look 8 forward to hearing your recommendations as you hash 9 through them today.10 I really am very pleased with what the 11 committee has been doing and all of the thoughtfulness 12 you've been giving into these issues. At the top of 13 our agenda, of course, is VoIP, and I'm glad that 14 you're biting into that. It offers I think huge 15 promise for revolutionizing the nation's 16 telecommunications infrastructure, how people get 17 voice services.18 We need to think about the explosion of 19 consumer choices and services that are going to become 20 available as a result of VoIP, and we need your 21 thoughts about to make sure that everybody in this 22 country benefits, be they people with disabilities or 23 people who live in rural areas. 24 Everybody has got to benefit from this and 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 16 do it equally, which also, of course, involves broad 1 band availability and everything else. So we're just 2 glad that you're going to give her input on that, 3 because we're seeing that VoIP has matured and it is 4 at the point now where we really think it's about to 5 take off.6 We have been saying that for a long time, 7 but I think now it's actually true. We're right there 8 on the cusp of it, and it -- the VoIP services are 9 targeting the biggest market, the residential 10 consumer. They're going straight after the jugular, 11 and the questions about what this means for consumers 12 and the Commission are far from simple. It's 13 extremely complex, how we're going to tackle these 14 issues. So we need your input on that. We need this 15 kind of dialogue.16 In addition to VoIP, I see that you are 17 focusing on electronic access to the FCC, which is a 18 critical issue. I think that a lot of the 19 recommendations that you're talking about are going to 20 be helpful to us. We have, of course, one of the best 21 websites in the country according to the ratings. It 22 can always be better. There's things that we can do 23 to make it more usable.24 I was just hearing some concerns from some 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 17 people about it recently. There's infinite things we 1 can do to improve it. We want to be the best, and 2 better than the best, as good as any -- any private 3 sector website. A lot of you have great familiarity 4 with how to come up with consumer-friendly, very 5 effective websites for commercial purposes. We want 6 to be equally effective here.7 I see that one of the recommendations is 8 to develop an action plan for those who use English as 9 a second language. I'm particularly interested in 10 getting the Commission to give attention to this 11 proposal, because in my view the 40 million Hispanics 12 in this country need to have the ability to access the13 material that we have on our website.14 And I'm pleased that we do have on our 15 website some important consumer information in 16 Spanish, but there's more we can do. And I'd like 17 Hispanics to be able to access our online documents as 18 well.19 Only 13 percent now of state and federal 20 government agencies offer any bilingual content at 21 all. And as the Federal Communications Commission, of 22 course, we should be leading that effort. And as part 23 of that leadership initiative, I want to in the next 24 few weeks put a portion of my own website in Spanish 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 18 as an impetus for others to do the same.1 So, again, I just wanted to thank you, 2 welcome you on behalf of all of the Commissioners 3 here, and thank CGB for their efforts in putting this 4 together. And I don't want to keep you from the 5 important work you have to do. I just wanted to 6 welcome you here this morning.7 Again, thanks from all of us.8 (Applause.)9 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Commissioner, thank 10 you so much. Do you have time to take questions? If 11 we have questions for the Commissioner?12 MR. ADELSTEIN: Sure, if you want to.13 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Does anybody have a 14 question?15 MR. ADELSTEIN: Anything on your mind? 16 I'd love to discuss.17 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: We thank you so much 18 for taking time out of your busy schedule to come and 19 join us. Thank you.20 MR. ADELSTEIN: Absolutely. You bet.21 (Applause.)22 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: I would like to -- at 23 this point, I'd like to set up the Homeland Security 24 Working Group. I spoke with Dane yesterday, and he 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 19 said it's very important for us to make 1 recommendations to the committee, so we -- what we 2 did, we had talked about this in November, and some of 3 you had indicated an interest.4 Those individuals who had indicated an 5 interest then were Mike Duke, Mike Delcasino, Mark 6 Pranger, Rebecca Ladue, and Susan Masary. Also, I 7 talked to Joe Gordon this morning, and he said he 8 might be interested. 9 So could we get a show of hands of the 10 people who'd like to serve on this Homeland Security 11 Working Group? And just to remind the folks that were 12 with Gene's ancillary services working group that that 13 group is kind of in abeyance right now, depending on 14 developments of technology, and so on. So we strongly 15 encourage you to join one of these groups, and perhaps 16 this is an opportunity to join a new one.17 At any rate, could I see a show of hands? 18 I saw Susan's hand up. Okay. We've got Susan, we've 19 got Mike Duke, Diane, Marsha, Joe. Okay. Who else do 20 we have? Brenda, and Mike Delcasino -- yes, I've got 21 him down -- Mark Pranger, okay, Rebecca, okay. Did I 22 get everyone who is interested? Okay. That's super.23 Scott can put together for you an e-mail 24 list. Who'd like to chair it? Or shall we let you 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 20 all decide that yourself?1 Mike Duke, we kind of had a question mark 2 by your name.3 (Laughter.)4 MR. DUKE: I will do it if no one else 5 goes --6 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: If no one is chomping 7 at the bit, huh? We appreciate that, Mike. Thank you 8 very much.9 Scott will be contacting you -- well, if 10 you want to give it some thought and join later, you 11 don't have to do it this morning. But we'd just like 12 to get the nucleus together. So have we got 13 everybody? Okay.14 All right. Super. That's wonderful. 15 Now, we have a few minutes, and I just 16 wanted to -- I said earlier that I was so pleased with 17 the work that's being done by the working groups. I 18 think that -- I think we've gotten -- really, some 19 excellent things have been happening. 20 And just to recap a little bit of it for 21 you, the broadband recommendations. As you know,22 we've made recommendations to the Commission. We are 23 asking them to pay close attention to issues for 24 people -- access for people with disabilities, and 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 21 these recommendations were filed.1 I understand that Larry's broadband 2 working group is developing some -- a paper dealing 3 with consumer issues in broadband, which we will look 4 forward to more on that later. So there has been a 5 lot of effort going on in that group, and certainly if 6 -- by the number of e-mails, they are very busy.7 The consumer education outreach and 8 complaints recommendations -- part of their 9 suggestions have resulted in Thomas Wyatt coming back 10 and joining us to speak about the consumer outreach. 11 But part, also, of the recommendations that were made 12 had to do with the fact that -- that we felt that 13 there was more consumer outreach that needed to be 14 done through a variety of outlets. Some excellent 15 things have come out of that working group, and I 16 think we're going to be hearing from them as we go 17 along.18 The TRS VRS homeland security19 recommendations you heard from Brenda. And as you --20 as we said, we have filed recommendations to the 21 Commission. We'll check up and find out what's going 22 on there. The Commission is considering a summit on 23 VRS TRS, and I'm not sure when that may be. But at 24 any rate, it has been brought to their attention, and 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 22 they haven't said no to it.1 As I said, we thank you, Gene, and his 2 leadership for the ancillary services working group. 3 Those of you who were on that group, if you do want to 4 sign up with another group, that would be strongly 5 encouraged. 6 If you think you're going to get out of a 7 working group and go out and play in the halls for two 8 hours while we have those meetings, you're wrong. So 9 you may need to find a home this morning when we go 10 out into our breakouts.11 Now, we have -- because Dane wasn't here 12 -- we had allowed time for him -- if Thomas Wyatt is 13 here, we could go ahead and start with Tom. Is he 14 here? Oh, you are here, Thomas. Thank you for being 15 the early man.16 I'm so pleased to introduce Tom. He's 17 been with us before, as you know. He has some --18 actually, he not only heads up the consumer -- yes, 19 where is it? I've got notes here, Thomas. Just bear 20 with me. He's back by popular demand.21 He's with the Consumer Governmental 22 Affairs Bureau. He's the Deputy Director. He's also 23 responsible for, as you know, the Bureau's Consumer 24 Inquiries and Complaints Division, and its Information 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 23 Access and Privacy Office as well.1 Thomas, thank you so much for coming back.2 (Applause.)3 MR. WYATT: Good morning. I'm glad to be 4 back. The last time I was here I spoke to you about 5 our consumer -- informal consumer complaint process, 6 and so today's presentation is sort of a followup to 7 that, because I'm going to talk briefly about our 8 quarterly statistical report on the top consumer 9 inquires and complaints that we receive.10 I'll keep my remarks brief, because I 11 don't have a lot of time. I want to make sure you 12 have time for questions, if you have them. 13 But we issued our first report back in 14 October 2001, and it covered the second quarter 15 calendar year 2001. Since that time, we've released a 16 report each subsequent quarter. Our most recent 17 report was issued back in November. We're planning to 18 release another one soon, and hopefully that will be 19 out within the next couple of weeks. 20 Don't hold me to that, but I'm pretty 21 confident that we'll have it out in the next couple of 22 weeks. I'm looking over at June, because I'm hoping 23 that she agrees with me. We should have it out in the 24 next couple of weeks.25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 24 Generally, the reports cover the top 1 categories of complaints and inquiries that we 2 receive. And our goal in creating the report was 3 pretty straightforward. We receive thousands of 4 consumer complaints every year, many of which are 5 resolved by the companies involved without a lot of 6 direct involvement from us. But some of them require 7 some pretty major work on our part.8 So highlighting the top complaints that we 9 receive is -- was one way of highlighting for 10 consumers issues that they may want to be particularly 11 concerned about or to consider as they shop around 12 among the many competing service providers.13 As far as the inquiries, the goal is 14 pretty much the same. We receive many more inquiries 15 than we do complaints, but oftentimes consumers are 16 confused about the service offerings. So we put a lot 17 of emphasis on making sure that consumers can get 18 information they need to make informed decisions.19 So by indicating the top inquiries that we 20 are receiving from consumers, it gives us a good idea 21 what consumers are concerned about, the issues that 22 they are struggling with, even if it falls short of a 23 complaint. So the idea was to really highlight the 24 top complaints and inquiries that we receive on a 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 25 quarterly basis.1 The information also helps Commission 2 staff, because it helps form and frame consumer 3 education initiatives, as well as consumer protection 4 initiatives that may be required.5 The report also assists companies in 6 targeting those aspects of their services that may 7 require some adjustment or some further explanation. 8 When we routinely meet with the companies -- I say 9 routinely, we do it very frequently -- as we identify 10 spikes or trends in our inquiry and complaint data, 11 and we've been very successful in working out issues 12 with the companies in terms of helping to educate 13 consumers about particular issues.14 So I really -- those of you that represent 15 companies, I'd like to say thank you, and we hope to 16 continue that cooperative working relationship, so 17 that we can continue to educate and inform consumers.18 I guess the most significant thing I can 19 say about the report -- and I will start wrapping up 20 my brief remarks with this -- is that we are always 21 constantly trying to improve it. In that respect, we 22 would really appreciate any recommendations you have 23 about ways to improve the report. We want to make it 24 useful to consumers, the industry, and the Commission. 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 26 So that's our goal is to really make it a valuable 1 tool for consumers and industry. 2 So having said that, I will open it up for 3 questions. I'll be happy to answer any questions you 4 might have.5 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: I have a question.6 MR. WYATT: Okay.7 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Describe for us the 8 types of complaints and the major ones -- the things 9 that would cause you to meet with companies to address 10 issues. Is this because of the level of complaints, 11 the number of complaints, the seriousness of the 12 complaints, or what's the general framework?13 MR. WYATT: During both of those things, 14 or sometimes a combination of those things, we see a 15 large spike in complaints. It tells us that there's 16 something -- something is going on that may require 17 some kind of intervention or some -- some consumer 18 education initiative.19 For example, billing complaints. You may 20 recall -- many of you may recall that the truth in 21 billing guidelines that the Commission adopted I guess 22 two or three years ago were based on the many, many 23 inquiries and complaints we received from consumers 24 about billing matters.25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 27 So billing is probably the classic 1 example. Slamming is another one. Many of the 2 Commission's slamming initiatives were based on the 3 fact that we received so many complaints from 4 consumers and so many inquiries about the slamming 5 phenomena.6 Probably one of the more recent and 7 popular examples would be TCPA, do not call. We were 8 inundated with complaints and inquiries about unwanted 9 telemarketing calls and unwanted faxes. And so that 10 -- monitoring those inquiries and those complaints was 11 very valuable for the Commission, because it provided 12 a lot of insight in terms of what the Commission 13 needed to do to address those issues.14 So we look at a number of factors -- the 15 number of complaints, the seriousness of the 16 complaints. For example, in the disabilities context, 17 I know that I've had this conversation with many of 18 you in the past. The disabilities complaints have 19 never really made our top categories list, because 20 they have been relatively few compared to other 21 complaints that we receive.22 But we don't -- that doesn't mean we take 23 those complaints any less seriously. When we see a 24 spike in disability-related complaints, we've convened 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 28 meetings, and we've called in companies to talk about 1 what's going on, to try to better understand and 2 better educate consumers.3 So our goal is always to educate and 4 inform, and the calls that we get from consumers, the 5 e-mail that we get from consumers, tells us that we 6 need to be more proactive in some areas. That's 7 exactly what we do.8 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: All right. Do we 9 have other questions for Thomas? Susan Grant.10 MS. GRANT: Good morning. We haven't 11 noticed a significant drop in the number of slamming 12 complaints that we're receiving at our national fraud 13 information center, despite the fact that consumers 14 have more rights than they used to, and that there are 15 disincentives, supposedly, for companies to slam 16 consumers.17 I'm wondering if you have seen any 18 significant decrease in slamming, and, if you haven't, 19 why you think that is and what more we can do about 20 it.21 MR. WYATT: That's a tough one. Well, 22 generally, we haven't seen a major decrease in the 23 number of complaints that are being logged with us. 24 Now, as many of you probably know, the states now have 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 29 authority to process slamming complaints on behalf of 1 the consumers in their respective states.2 In that respect, certainly if you take 3 into account complaints that are filed at the state 4 level, which our reports don't reflect by the way, but 5 there doesn't appear to be any significant reduction 6 in the number of complaints that we're seeing.7 I don't know why that's the case. It 8 might be that consumers are a lot more savvy, and they 9 understand what their rights are, which is something 10 else we try to do by the way is to make sure that 11 consumers understand they have a right to redress if 12 they have been slammed.13 And the rules are very straightforward 14 when it comes to slamming, and the relief is very 15 straightforward. If you file a complaint and allege 16 the appropriate facts, then the chances are you're 17 going to get relief in the slamming context. 18 Consumers know that, and they file complaints. 19 And we don't discourage people from 20 filing, so the fact that they haven't gone down is not 21 troubling to me. It means that consumers are taking 22 advantage of their rights. 23 And I don't have the numbers before me. I 24 don't think we've spoken recently about the number of 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 30 slamming orders that we've -- the Bureau has issued 1 resolving slamming complaints. The number has gone up 2 pretty significantly in the past year, in terms of 3 orders resolving slamming complaints.4 I think the industry would like to see the 5 numbers go down as well. I'm sure of that. And it 6 wouldn't bother us to see the numbers go down, but we 7 want to make sure that consumers are aware of that 8 avenue and can file a complaint if they feel they've 9 been slammed.10 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Annette.11 MS. CLECKNER: Just a follow up on that. 12 There is also a rulemaking open on the CARE 13 procedures, which are the customer account record 14 exchange information that the carriers pass between 15 themselves when they're switching customers.16 And we think that that rulemaking will be 17 important in furthering efforts to reduce slamming, 18 because as we get better information between the 19 carriers we should have fewer instances of consumers 20 getting switched to a carrier that wasn't their 21 particular choice. And getting that information more 22 accurately passed between the carriers should reduce 23 these kinds of problems.24 So another layer to the -- to what we're 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 31 referring to as the slamming or the alleged 1 unauthorized install issue.2 MR. WYATT: That's a good point, and it 3 goes back to my point earlier about our goal in 4 working with companies is to make sure that they have 5 mechanisms in place to handle the complaints. And 6 from our perspective, the companies are doing a good 7 job. Whenever we've had to raise an issue with the 8 various companies, they've been very responsive.9 So to the extent that the companies are 10 poised and equipped to handle complaints directly -- I 11 mean, our purpose is for consumers to go directly to 12 the companies in the first instance. And to the 13 extent that the companies have mechanisms in place to 14 resolve complaints before they get to us, I mean, we 15 really favor that. That is definitely our preference.16 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Tom.17 MR. ALLIBONE: Yes, this is Tom Allibone. 18 Actually, I have a comment, first of all. I'm very 19 pleased to hear that the industry is doing something 20 with regard to sharing the records back and forth, 21 because there's a phenomenon going on in the industry 22 for some period of time now where -- it's called 23 casual calls.24 And I see almost every day of the week 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 32 situations where consumers all across the country, 1 when they add a line, switch carriers, and do a number 2 of things along those lines, what happens is that if 3 the carrier they are switching to is not aware that 4 they became a customer of the new carrier, even though 5 they were picked over to them as their legitimate long 6 distance carrier, they are incurring, you know, casual 7 calls.8 So hopefully this new procedure you're 9 talking about will help head off those types of 10 consumer, you know, issues that I've seen people get 11 billed as much as $4 a minute when it appears on your 12 phone bill. It's a real wakeup phone call. So that's 13 really good news.14 My question, though, getting back to you, 15 Tom, would be along the lines of -- it's a soft issue, 16 really, in my mind -- and that's cramming. Where do 17 you stand -- what kind of statistics do you track to 18 that level, if you do so? 19 And, again, my concern -- the reason I 20 raise the cramming issue is because at the end of the 21 day it normally comes down to a situation where it's a 22 he said/she said type battle. And I think the 23 consumers are in a very gray and a very awkward area. 24 So I'm just curious what, you know, you have found 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 33 with your reports with respect to cramming type of 1 violations and complaints.2 MR. WYATT: I don't have the specific 3 numbers in front of me, but I do -- I can tell you 4 that we do track cramming. We track it very closely.5 Now, the thing about cramming -- in many 6 instances, the complaint ultimately belongs with the 7 FCC, and we do our best to get the complaint over to 8 the FCC when we get it. But we do -- when we receive 9 one, we count it. We code it and count it, and it's 10 included in our database, so we can track it.11 So it's something that we track very 12 closely, and we coordinate very closely with the FCC 13 to make sure that when -- complaints that involve non-14 carriers and cramming, those complaints are forwarded 15 to the FCC for appropriate action.16 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Larry.17 MR. GOLDBERG: Hi, Tom. It's Larry 18 Goldberg from WGBH. We are aware that the level of 19 complaints from the disability community doesn't quite 20 rise to the level of wardrobe mishaps that happen 21 around the country, but nonetheless they are important 22 issues.23 (Laughter.)24 A while back we had talked about, since 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 34 many of us are almost equal to the FCC in fielding 1 these complaints and having to deal with them, because 2 our consumers write to us all the time, that you are 3 considering whether you could share both the 4 complaints and the resolutions of them with us, so 5 that we could all be on the same page and actually see 6 how the FCC was doing on them and see how we were 7 doing with them. So that's still possible.8 MR. WYATT: Well, let me address maybe the 9 second part of that, because the thing to keep in mind 10 about our informal complaint process, we typically 11 don't render decisions on the merits. The informal 12 process is really designed to facilitate some 13 resolution for the consumer in an informal way. So 14 very rarely is there a written disposition of a 15 consumer complaint.16 It happens in the slamming context, 17 because there are a specific set of rules that require 18 the Commission to do that. But very rarely do we 19 issue any written disposition of an informal complaint 20 in that context.21 Now, the first part of your question, 22 sharing the complaint information, we're open to 23 recommendations about capturing -- better capturing 24 disability-related complaints. And I guess I would 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 35 maybe look to Shirley and see if we could get maybe a 1 formal recommendation along that line. We'd be happy 2 to consider it.3 But we're always trying to improve the 4 reports. So to the extent that we can better capture 5 disability-related complaints, we want to figure out6 how to do that. So I'm very open to that. And there 7 might be ways that we can -- I haven't really studied 8 the issue recently, but there are things that we can 9 do to better capture complaints, to the extent that 10 there's a view that we're not capturing complaints.11 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: I think we very well 12 can get a recommendation from the working group that 13 we can put in the form of a formal recommendation. 14 We'll have to put it before the committee, but it 15 sounds reasonable to me.16 Who is here from the working group, the 17 consumer outreach and -- Susan, who's the chair of 18 that group? I forget. Joy. Joy is not with us 19 today. Mike is sitting in for her. Is this 20 something, Mike, that we could ask you all to take up? 21 Okay. Super, that's great. 22 Thomas, that's excellent. Thank you.23 MR. WYATT: I was going to make a comment 24 about -- back to Larry as well. To the extent that 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 36 you are seeing complaints that aren't making it to us, 1 I guess I have a question. 2 Are there things that you're doing to 3 facilitate the consumer actually giving the complaint 4 to us, if you feel they should come to us? Because 5 I've heard many times that people on the outside are 6 getting a lot of complaints, but they never really 7 ever show up with us in that kind of volume.8 So if there are some things that you all 9 can do to maybe facilitate that process, then we'd 10 welcome that as well. So we're just not getting the 11 numbers of complaints that we're told are out there.12 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Well, I think it is 13 incumbent upon us -- like Call for Action. We always 14 tell people to file the complaint with you, even 15 though we may help them resolve the problem. We feel 16 that, like you do, it's very important that this 17 record be maintained, so you know what's going on.18 So perhaps what we all need to do is to 19 make a concerted effort to see that consumers, in 20 addition, file their complaint. 21 I don't know -- Susan, do you all do that? 22 You probably do. Do you recommend that consumers who 23 call you about telephone complaints also file it with 24 the FCC?25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 37 MS. PALMER-MAZRUI: No, we would not do 1 that. We would try to resolve it directly with the 2 customer. But I think --3 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: I'm sorry, Susan. I 4 meant the other Susan.5 MS. PALMER-MAZRUI: Oh, sorry.6 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: I'm looking at Susan 7 Grant. I apologize.8 MS. GRANT: Actually, we take complaints 9 in about slamming and cramming, and we --10 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Wait a minute. Put 11 your hand up.12 MS. GRANT: We take in complaints about 13 slamming and cramming and electronically transmit them 14 to certain personnel at the FCC. So we don't need to 15 tell consumers to take another step to complain to the 16 FCC, because we can --17 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: That's great.18 MS. GRANT: -- share that information.19 MR. WYATT: And I believe the slamming 20 complaints are a type of complaint -- those are being 21 reflected in our numbers, because we are getting those 22 in a pretty routine way. But I think the concern I 23 was hearing is that a lot of disability-related 24 complaints don't quite show up in our numbers, and 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 38 that's something that we've been hearing for some time 1 and doing -- we're open to ways to improve that.2 If there are, in fact, complaints that we 3 should be receiving, then we want to figure out how to 4 make sure consumers know how to do it and where to do 5 it.6 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: And Susan Mazrui this 7 time. Sorry, Susan.8 MS. PALMER-MAZRUI: That's okay. I 9 thought that was kind of an odd question for me.10 (Laughter.)11 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: It was.12 MS. PALMER-MAZRUI: I think to Larry's 13 point, in terms of disability-related complaints, I 14 think people with disabilities are often intimidated 15 about going to a government agency. And certainly 16 companies prefer it if we can resolve the complaint 17 directly.18 But I think for companies that want to do 19 the right thing, it would be sometimes helpful to have 20 a list of concerns. Maybe not the addition -- you 21 know, the actual complaint or the carriers or service 22 manufacturers involved, but, you know, this is an 23 issue that was raised. 24 You know, we've seen it several times. 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 39 And these seem to be concerns, and I think that that 1 would be helpful in our planning moving forward, 2 because in many cases the disabilities may be low 3 incidence, or we may not have had that complaint. 4 Sometimes it helps reinforce what we're doing, that 5 we're doing the right thing.6 But more often, it will give us some 7 information about needs that we may not have heard 8 directly from the community that we work with.9 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Okay. I think --10 thank you, Susan. 11 Is there any follow up on that comment? 12 Rich Ellis, I believe you had your hand up next.13 MR. ELLIS: Just a couple of comments for 14 you. First of all, Shirley -- and other groups were 15 referring people who have gone to you first, and then 16 having to go to the FCC -- that's fine, but please 17 tell them when they go to the FCC, if you have already 18 solved the problem, tell them to tell the FCC that. 19 Otherwise, we're going to be chasing our tails and 20 solving the same problem three and four times over.21 Also, if we do get some kind of report 22 from the FCC back to the committees of this group, I'd 23 like to make sure that there's enough detail in there, 24 so that we get an understanding of what the complaints 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 40 are. A lot of times we get complaints from customers 1 and it's just a misunderstanding. And by the -- you 2 know, we go back and tell the customer what the facts 3 are.4 It isn't that something is wrong with the 5 company, but if it's listed wrong on the sheet it's 6 going to give a wrong impression. So just make sure 7 there's enough detail so we can accurately reflect 8 what the complaints are about.9 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Good point. So now 10 we had several hands. Andrea, and then David.11 MS. WILLIAMS: Can you hear me? I'd just 12 like to concur with what Rich said. I strongly agree 13 with you on that.14 But I'd also like to ask Susan and some of 15 the other consumer organizations, have you ever tried 16 or have worked with, say, an industry group in terms 17 of providing that information? Say, for example --18 I'm going to be frank. Say, for example, as you know, 19 CTIA has been working on a voluntary consumer code. 20 Would consumer groups be willing to share that 21 information, if we had a mechanism to accept that 22 information and get it to the right people within our23 companies, my member companies? 24 Because I think what -- the goal here is 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 41 to facilitate the consumer getting his complaint 1 resolved as quickly as possible. And I think that 2 would also help.3 I'm not saying that -- you know, if the 4 consumer still wants to file a complaint with the FCC, 5 that's fine. But at least it gives us a chance to 6 resolve the customer's issue before we lose them as a 7 customer, and I know that's very, very important to my 8 members. 9 That with the industry right now 10 particularly being so competitive, that they get very 11 concerned when a complaint just sits there and it 12 doesn't -- they don't know about it or it's, you know, 13 sitting at a state PUC's office or at the FCC, because 14 they are burdened with a lot of, you know, work. They 15 lose that customer and don't have a chance to win back 16 that customer.17 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Well, in the case of 18 Call for Action, we call on behalf of the consumer. 19 So we would talk to your member base. We would be 20 calling the company that's involved about the problem.21 But, yes, I think this is something that 22 we could discuss in terms of how we can share 23 information with consumers, so that we serve everybody 24 better. 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 42 So -- wait a minute. I have other -- is 1 this comments following up on this? Because we're 2 running out of time, so let's make them very brief. I 3 saw Susan's hand first, and then we'll get to David, 4 because, David, do you have a different issue?5 MR. POEHLMAN: No.6 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Oh, okay. Well, 7 then, David is first. I'm trying to be fair.8 MR. POEHLMAN: I don't think I have a 9 different issue. Dave Poehlman with the American 10 Council of the Blind. Just wanted to mention that 11 another reason that people -- that you may see lower 12 incidence of complaints from people with disabilities 13 is that a lot of times when confronted with a 14 situation that looks like it might not be 15 appropriately meeting their needs, a lot of people 16 with disabilities just sort of adjust and find other 17 ways to do things.18 And there's a lot of examples of that I 19 can give you, but -- but, you know, they just sort of 20 drop out of the -- well, anyway, I don't want to go on 21 too far with this, but that's basically what can 22 happen.23 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Okay. We had other 24 comments. Susan, and then we'll just go down the 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 43 table.1 MS. GRANT: I just wanted to clarify that 2 we're looking for complaints that rise to the level of 3 fraud or serious deception and not misunderstandings 4 or billing disputes. We transmit the information to 5 law enforcement agencies, and we need to leave it to 6 them to decide when it's appropriate to share that 7 information with the companies in question.8 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: All right. Who else 9 had a comment? I think Joe's hand was first, and then 10 Susan, and then Larry. Okay. And got to ask it fast.11 MR. GORDON: Hi. Joe Gordon, League for 12 the Hard of Hearing. One of the many, many, many 13 hundreds of complaints that I receive from hard of 14 hearing and deaf consumers is quality and quantity of 15 captioning. You mentioned quality, and that's 16 something that you have to invite us to participate 17 in.18 As far as missing captions, when captions 19 are missed and a consumer writes to the cable TV 20 company, it's after the fact. So it's not in a 21 complaint, but it's a question. And they never, never 22 reply unless there's a cc to the FCC, and that's a 23 problem we need to have solved by the industry.24 When a program is -- TV without 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 44 captioning, we want to bring it to their attention and 1 get them -- say, "Oh, the switch was not turned on." 2 We need a reply. There are many, many complaints 3 about missing closed captioning, and we need some help 4 on that.5 MR. WYATT: Okay. I know that recently we 6 facilitated a meeting with a consumer group in 7 Northern Virginia and members of the industry 8 regarding captioning matters, and that's something 9 that we look to do as well. If there is -- there 10 seems to be a disconnect, if information is not 11 flowing in one direction, we try to act as a bridge 12 sometimes to make sure that there's an open dialogue. 13 And we're always open to doing something like that.14 So we'll continue to do that, but, again, 15 if there are other recommendations, we're open to 16 them.17 I wanted to just -- if I could quickly 18 follow up on something Rich was referring to. I 19 neglected to mention that one important caveat that we 20 include in our report is the fact that a complaint 21 doesn't mean that a company has done anything wrong.22 We get a complaint from -- we get many 23 complaints that don't involve violations of any 24 specific rule or policy of the Commission. So we're 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 45 very careful to point out that the existence of a 1 complaint doesn't mean that a company has done 2 anything wrong. 3 So, and I think that's a very important 4 caveat that I need to mention, because we do get a lot 5 of complaints that are not actionable but they do give 6 us an opportunity to try to help and assist or inform 7 the consumer.8 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Okay. Susan Mazrui, 9 do you -- it was answered? Okay.10 Thomas, thank you so much. As always, 11 you're an outstanding hit. Thank you.12 (Applause.)13 I think that's something that, of course, 14 the way consumer complaints are handled are important 15 to consumers and businesses alike. So we all have a 16 vested interest in what they're doing.17 It's time for us to go to our breakout 18 sessions. Just a few reminders. At lunch, we are 19 having a presentation. Lunch starts at 12:00. Please 20 be back here by 12:00, because we have lunch scheduled 21 from 12:00 to 1:00, and we have someone from Vonage 22 coming to talk about VoIP. So I think it's going to 23 be a subject of great interest to all of us.24 We'll have lunch here at 12:00. Be back.25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 46 Now, for those people -- for Eugene's 1 working group, the ancillary services -- Scott, what 2 are we going to do with them? Let me give you the 3 microphone.4 MR. MARSHALL: All right. The TRS group 5 will remain in this room. And the consumer complaints 6 outreach education group and the broadband group will 7 meet across the hall and down the corridor. Broadband 8 will be in B445, and there is a sign. And the 9 consumer complaints group will be in A408 across the 10 hall, and there is signage there.11 And if -- I know many of Eugene's group 12 were also on other working groups, and are, therefore, 13 already taken care of. But if anyone is in need of a 14 new working group home, feel free to join any of these 15 groups. And let us know that you'd like to join, and 16 we'll be sure that you get plugged in to the e-mail 17 discussion, list serve, and all that sort of stuff 18 that's set up for each group.19 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Brenda has a 20 question.21 MR. MARSHALL: Okay. Brenda, go ahead.22 MS. KELLY-FREY: Is it my understanding 23 that we just formed a new homeland security working 24 group? And shall we be meeting as well during this 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 47 time period or not?1 MR. MARSHALL: No, not at this point.2 MS. KELLY-FREY: Okay.3 MR. MARSHALL: Not at this point. 4 Undoubtedly, our next meeting -- well, they will be 5 part of the breakout sessions, and we'll get that off 6 the ground quite quickly. And there certainly will be 7 meetings between now and the June meeting.8 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Do we have any other 9 questions before we go to our breakout? Okay. Go do 10 lots of work. 11 Thank you.12 (Whereupon, at 10:02 a.m., the proceedings 13 were adjourned so that participants could 14 attend working group breakout sessions.)15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 48 A-F-T-E-R-N-O-O-N S-E-S-S-I-O-N1 (12:16 p.m.)2 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Yes. Hello, 3 everyone. If we could get you to the table, we'd like 4 to start our lunchtime presentation, please. If I 5 could get you to the table.6 Many of you have expressed an interest in 7 the VoIP issue, and I think we're going to have an 8 enlightening presentation for us at lunch today. Our 9 guest is Brooke Schulz, who is the -- heads the 10 Communication Department at Vonage. She oversees 11 their public regulations, their regulatory affairs, 12 marketing, and internal communications programs.13 I don't know with all those things to do 14 how she found time to get here for us, but we're very 15 thankful that she did. So please join me in welcoming 16 Brooke.17 Thank you.18 MS. SCHULZ: Wow, what a great19 introduction. Thank you.20 Okay. I'm running the presentation off 21 this laptop here. I think we're supposed to see a 22 presentation up here, but I'm not sure. I can run it 23 here. That's fine.24 Okay. Sorry for the delay. There we go.25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 49 Okay. Can everyone see that? Okay, 1 great. Sorry for the delay.2 I'm from Vonage. We're a relatively new 3 company. We were founded in 2001. We are based out 4 of Edison, New Jersey. We have about 300 employees 5 currently. We spent the bulk of 2001-2002 developing 6 the technology and testing our service in limited 7 market trials. And in 2003, we came to market with a 8 new service called Vonage, the broadband phone 9 company. 10 It's basically voice over IP. What we see 11 in the marketplace today is using a voice over IP 12 adapter like this, a computer, in conjunction with a 13 broadband connection. I'm going to pass this around, 14 so everyone can kind of see it. Pass the adapter 15 around.16 Basically, you use the adapter in 17 conjunction with a regular telephone and a broadband 18 connection, and your calls will now be routed over the 19 internet. It uses a regular telephone number, and 20 I'll get into some of the cool features and unique 21 applications that the service offers in a little bit.22 But basically in 2003 was the first real 23 year of launch for us. Today we have about 130,000 24 lines and service. So it's still a very small market.25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 50 A couple of things that we achieved in 1 2003 and early 2004, we actually offer about 40 states 2 coverage with our service. So we offer about 180 area 3 codes, and that means you can choose from any area 4 code that's in our network. So if you go to 5 Vonage.com and want to sign up, you can choose from 6 any of the 180 area codes we offer.7 Because this service works over the 8 internet, basically there is no geographic 9 significance to the number anymore, and you can choose 10 from any of the numbers that we offer. So this offers 11 some really cool capabilities to consumers who are 12 interested in having a presence outside their local 13 area.14 Now, with regard to a couple of things 15 we've done over the past year, we have about 60 16 percent of the market share currently, according to 17 the Yankee Group. There are other companies entering 18 the marketplace, like Time-Warner Cable and 19 CableVision. You might be aware of some of their 20 products.21 Right now, this is a very new industry, 22 and we're starting to kind of get our legs underneath 23 us and figure out what kind of new features and what 24 kind of cool services we're going to be offering to 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 51 the marketplace over the next year and in the coming 1 years.2 We've also been the first operator to 3 create the first non-geographic 911 system. I can get 4 into a little bit about that a little bit later. You 5 might be aware that our CEO last week participated in 6 the internet policy working group 911 summit.7 We also completed a recent equity 8 financing round of $75 million, so there's a lot of 9 investment coming into this community for new 10 services, new features, and new capabilities in this 11 market. It's very exciting.12 So this is how it works. I explained a 13 little bit about how the adapter plugs into your 14 existing home networking with regard to your high-15 speed cable modem or your DSL modem. You can see the 16 white box there in the front. The yellow adapter is 17 actually the black adapter that I handed around, and 18 that's a Motorola device. We have used CISCO devices 19 in the past. We are currently using the Motorola 20 adapter.21 Basically, all you need is an existing 22 telephone handset that you have at home, a cordless 23 phone, corded phone. Any kind of phone that you have 24 will work. And you basically plug that into your 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 52 adapter, and plug the adapter into the internet, and 1 you're off to the races.2 You do the installation yourself. Once 3 you sign up on Vonage.com, the box is mailed to you by 4 UPS, and you get it out of the box and you install 5 your own phone service. It's kind of a neat thing for 6 people to be able to really take control of their 7 service and take control of the features.8 So you don't really need a computer. In 9 this picture here, the computer is kind of tangential, 10 but there are some really cool features I'll get into 11 in a minute that do utilize the computer that are in 12 conjunction with our service, and a couple new things 13 that we're coming out with on the next slide.14 So this is a new product that we just 15 launched this week called the Vonage soft phone. And 16 this is actually a phone that lives on your computer, 17 and it goes with you wherever your computer goes. It 18 needs high-speed internet just like the adapter does, 19 but it can also work over a Y-FY connection.20 So I actually have a soft phone that I'm 21 going to demonstrate for you all on this computer here 22 that's running over the FCC's Y-FY network.23 This is also a picture of an IPAC. You 24 can actually use your soft phone clients on a PDA. So 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 53 if you have an IPAC or some next generation device 1 that works over the internet, you can install this 2 piece of software on that device and use it wherever 3 there's internet access. 4 So there's a lot more mobility with this 5 new application than there is with the actual phone 6 handset and the Motorola adapter. So that's giving 7 more mobility to people, which we think is a very good 8 thing.9 Now, this is a new feature that -- or new 10 offering that we're currently developing. It's a Y-FY 11 handset. It works -- it looks like a cordless phone, 12 and it works over a Y-FY network. CISCO is currently 13 in the marketplace with a device like this. We're 14 evaluating the CISCO gear as well as some other 15 handsets that will work over Y-FY connections.16 Basically, you will no longer need the 17 adapter or a computer. If you have a Y-FY network 18 installed in your home, you can take the Y-FY handset 19 all over the home, or even to a Starbucks, wherever 20 there's Y-FY, or even your office, and use it there.21 So it's kind of like a cellular phone but 22 -- in terms of the way it roams, but it must work over 23 the internet, so it has to have a Y-FY hot spot. So 24 that's kind of the new application that we've seen our 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 54 customers demand that gives more mobility and more 1 flexibility with the applications.2 But because it's a computer application, 3 it runs over the internet. So all you really need is 4 internet access, high-speed internet access, to get it 5 to work. So that's exciting.6 So a little bit about the plans. So why 7 are people signing up, and why is this voice over IP 8 taking off the way it has been over the past year? 9 Our packages start at $15. So for $15 you can get a 10 full service telephone service, for 500 minutes of 11 calling throughout the U.S. and Canada, including all 12 of the features. And I'm going to get into a little 13 bit of the cool features that we offer in a minute.14 But basically, we give you all the 15 features for free, and we don't nickel and dime our 16 customers. So $15 is a pretty competitive offering to 17 start out with phone service, so we think that's 18 pretty advantageous.19 $35 is the premier flagship product, $35 20 for unlimited calling throughout the U.S. and Canada. 21 We also offer businesses packages that give you 22 basically two lines, which is a fax line and a voice 23 line, for the price of one really. So we're pretty 24 proud of the packages we've put together for consumers 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 55 and the feature capabilities that we've put together 1 for consumers as well.2 But we've found that a lot of our 3 customers have come back to us and said, you know, 4 "You've saved me thousands of dollars a month or a 5 year, and we really thank you for cutting our phone 6 bills down so significantly." So that's a pretty big 7 advantage to customers out there who have been 8 spending a lot of money on their phone service.9 So this is the feature set that we offer. 10 As you can see, it's pretty lengthy. We offer all of 11 the lower left and right-hand features for free. The 12 premium services you deserve at the top -- at my top 13 left are the ones that we charge $5. Enhanced 411 is 14 actually $1. But toll-free plus, virtual phone 15 number, and the Vonage soft phone are all $5 to $10 16 extra per month.17 The dialing 911, as you can see, is free. 18 Local number portability is free. All of these 19 features, like voice mail, caller ID, call forwarding, 20 call waiting, those are all free as well. So we let 21 you pick and choose which features and services you 22 want to use. We give them to you all for free and let 23 you kind of customize your phone service to suit your 24 needs.25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 56 So, again, with self-installation comes 1 self-configuration of the features and of the way 2 you're going to actually use the service. So, for 3 example, we have a picture here in the center that is 4 of the web account that we give you for free. 5 Basically, the web account is a portal into your 6 Vonage service, and basically allows you to configure 7 every possible aspect of your Vonage service for free 8 on the web, wherever there is internet access.9 So, for example, you can set your call 10 forwarding in real time. Once you're leaving your 11 computer, you put -- hit Submit, it's set. For 12 example, all you have to do to set your call 13 forwarding for your Vonage service is type in the 14 number, hit Submit, and your call forwarding is set.15 We also have a couple of cool features 16 that we're starting to develop right now. One is 17 called simul-ring. It actually lets you set the 18 Vonage service to ring two different phones at one 19 time. We also have another feature that we're working 20 on called blast-me that allows you to ring up to five 21 to 10 phones at one time, if you want to.22 You know, if you don't know where you're 23 going to be at one time, if you're going to be, like, 24 near a cell phone, or you're not sure, you can have it 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 57 ring all the phones that you might possibly be near at 1 that time. And depending on which one you pick up 2 first, you'll be able to take the call. So it's 3 pretty powerful in terms of giving you features and 4 flexibility that haven't been available in the 5 marketplace before.6 Because this is IP, we can develop 7 features much more quickly and much more cost 8 effectively, and deploy them to the environment -- to 9 the consumer marketplace much more quickly. 10 People can actually develop their own 11 features. We have a developer's website, where we 12 have our customers go to and they actually develop 13 their own features. For example, for the simul-ring 14 feature, we've had a gentleman -- I think he's in 15 India, he actually developed a website that says, "If 16 you want to call me now, type in your phone number 17 here." 18 And it's a Vonage service, and he 19 basically types -- you type in the phone number, and 20 it rings your existing phone. It does a ring back for 21 you. It rings his Vonage phone, and it rings your 22 phone that's on your desk, so it's pretty neat. And 23 he developed that all on his own, and we have some 24 developer sites that are kind of developing some cool 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 58 and cutting edge things that we didn't even think 1 about.2 So, again, this is an open environment. 3 This is computer networking, and this is open source. 4 So a lot of people have a lot of cool ideas that they 5 want to exercise, and they are -- we are giving them 6 the tools to do that and to develop some new cutting 7 edge things that we didn't even think about. So 8 that's it for features.9 So, well, we're doing some work toward the 10 future with regard to 911 and a couple disability 11 access issues. With regard to NENA, we're actually 12 working very closely with NENA and the FCC on 13 developing an I911 standard. And we're actually 14 implementing some tests in a few states that you might 15 be aware of, or might not be. 16 In Vermont, we're actually doing a fully 17 enhanced internet-based 911 test where we're actually 18 sending the 911 traffic to -- I believe they are IP-19 enabled phone handsets as well as computer terminals 20 with more advanced information than currently is 21 available today. So that's pretty exciting.22 We're also working with Gallaudet 23 University to test and deploy some new features for 24 the disability community with regard to TTY and TDD 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 59 services. So we're working with them to see what kind 1 of features and what kind of capabilities the IP 2 environment can push forward with the disability 3 community in mind.4 And IETF -- with regard to IETF, there are 5 -- actually, right now we're working on -- right now 6 we've talked a lot about voice services and what kind 7 of voice capabilities are on the market today. But in 8 the future, we're going to see a lot more integrated 9 types of communications where there is a voice stream, 10 a video stream, and possibly a text stream all during 11 the same call or the same session.12 Because we use a technology called SIP, 13 there is a lot of different types of media we can send 14 back and forth to different terminals or computers, or 15 phones even. So what's exciting is IETF is working on 16 a text over IP standard where you'll be able to send 17 text back and forth along with video or along with 18 voice or as its own stand-alone stream. 19 So there's a lot of pretty cool things 20 that are being worked on in the technology 21 environment, and we're trying to work with as many 22 communities as possible to get those solutions 23 deployed to not only our market but the customers as a 24 whole. And that's it. 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 60 For now, I think I'm going to try this 1 soft phone call and see how this works. Put on my 2 headset. So, let's see. Let me show you. This is 3 the Vonage soft phone application. Let me show you 4 how it works.5 Basically, it looks kind of like a phone 6 screen, because you have the number here, and you can 7 just dial it by punching in these numbers using the 8 mouse or using the keypad. And I have the number here 9 already typed in. I'm basically just going to 10 initiate the call. And this is over a Y-FY 11 connection, so this is completely wireless.12 Hi, Jeff? Hello?13 JEFF: Hello?14 MS. SCHULZ: Hi, Jeff. Can you hear me?15 JEFF: Yes.16 MS. SCHULZ: How does it sound?17 JEFF: Well, other than the echo that 18 we're getting because we're too close to speakers, it 19 sounds perfectly fine.20 MS. SCHULZ: Great. 21 So as you can see, there's a lot of really 22 cool applications we're working on with regard to not 23 only mobility but voice communications, where you can 24 take a computer wherever and a phone service wherever 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 61 there is internet access. So as you can see, this is 1 going to be a pretty exciting development.2 Thank you.3 JEFF: Okay.4 MS. SCHULZ: Also, if any of you would 5 like to try this, I'd be happy to let you call 6 somebody or try something at the end of the day.7 Thank you.8 And now for questions. Yes?9 MR. SNOOP: Is this on? Hello? Okay. 10 Most of the cable companies that are currently getting 11 into VoIP are marketing this as a second line service, 12 advising customers to keep their pot service. Is that 13 basically where you're coming from also?14 MS. SCHULZ: We actually market it -- we 15 don't really market it as a second line or as a line 16 replacement. We basically view it as an option in the 17 plethora of voice services that are out there today.18 MR. SNOOP: Like an enhancement to --19 MS. SCHULZ: Yes. We view it as several 20 -- in a different way, I guess, than the cable 21 operator would, because we view it as they -- they now 22 have three options for voice communications in the 23 marketplace, where, you know, maybe even two years ago 24 there were only two. There was landline and cell 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 62 phone, and now there's landline, cell phone, and voice 1 over IP. 2 So we view it as, you know, you can self-3 configure it and sign up for it however you personally 4 want to use the service. We don't, you know, market 5 to you in a certain way, or basically say to you, 6 "Okay. I want you to, you know, use this only, and 7 this is the best phone service for you out there."8 We basically say, you know, "This is 9 another option in the marketplace. We hope to save 10 you some money, and we hope to have your business." 11 That's kind of the way we're looking at it, as an 12 addition to what's existing in the marketplace.13 MR. SNOOP: Okay.14 MR. DUKE: Okay. All right. My name is 15 Mike Duke. I'm from Mississippi. What is -- have you 16 -- first of all, have you done any experiments with 17 your soft phone in terms of working with adaptive 18 screen software for visually impaired people?19 Also, what about directory assistance? 20 And how secure is it? If it's a Y-FY connection, what 21 keeps somebody from coming in and using up all of my 22 minutes?23 MS. SCHULZ: Those are all -- three good 24 questions. So I'll take them one at a time. First of 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 63 all, we haven't done -- this product is very new. 1 This soft phone was just released this week, so we 2 haven't really done a lot of testing with some of the 3 unique applications that are out there for the blind,4 like you mentioned. We haven't done any of that, but 5 we would like to test that. And we'd be happy to do 6 -- to get hold of software and take it to our lab and 7 see what we can do.8 With regard to the security question, in 9 terms of wireless networks, basically they are pretty 10 open. With our service there is encryption on each 11 end of a call, so you actually have to be 12 authenticated with our network. And what that means 13 is the software that's built into this computer here 14 that I just used, basically knows to communicate with 15 our servers, and say, "I am authenticated to make 16 calls and receive calls. Here is my account 17 information. Here is my address." And all of that 18 information is encrypted, so it's pretty secure. 19 As you know, in these days nothing is 20 completely secure. You can't say something is 100 21 percent secure. But we think we're doing a pretty 22 good job of keeping things secure.23 And can you refresh my memory on the last 24 -- the other question? I'm sorry.25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 64 MR. DUKE: Directory assistance, 1 especially for --2 MS. SCHULZ: Oh, directory assistance.3 MR. DUKE: -- for people who are not using 4 your service, if I need to get a phone number for a 5 local business, or whatever.6 MS. SCHULZ: Sure. Yes. We have enhanced 7 411 that is a dollar a call, and it's national 411. 8 And you can get any number that's in the database. It 9 just works like regular 411.10 In the corner?11 MR. POEHLMAN: Hi. Vonage is a wonderful 12 service I've been hearing about for a couple of years 13 now. It seems like the price has come down. I think 14 initially it was like $39.95, and I just hear you 15 quote $35 something, $34.95 or something. That's 16 good.17 The reason I wanted to speak with you, I 18 wanted to ask about the Y-FY handset. I have a couple 19 of questions. One is, if I go to Starbucks to use it, 20 does that mean that I have to be authorized with the 21 Starbucks service? Or is it just like -- just because 22 I'm in the vicinity of a Y-FY network, it will just 23 pick it up and work.24 MS. SCHULZ: That's a really good 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 65 question. As you are probably aware, there are 1 different kinds of Y-FY networks that exist in the 2 marketplace today. There are home networks that are 3 configured by the user, and then there are more 4 corporate or enterprise networks, that are for sale, 5 like the Starbucks network offered by T-Mobile.6 So with regard to the Starbucks, you would 7 definitely need to be given access, either through 8 purchasing a card or some kind of access to the 9 T-Mobile hot spot that you're going to be using it 10 over, obviously. 11 But there are also other free networks. 12 For example, in Bryant Park in New York City, that's a 13 completely free and open network. So the handset will 14 work, to my knowledge, over both networks as long as 15 you are granted access and you are able to configure 16 the wireless networking card within the device to be 17 able to work with the network you're trying to use it 18 over.19 MR. POEHLMAN: And my second question is: 20 since this is a -- since this is a -- like a cordless 21 phone basically kind of thing, I imagine it has some22 display information, like caller ID and things like 23 that on it?24 MS. SCHULZ: Yes, it does. It's actually 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 66 -- I wish I could have brought one here.1 MR. POEHLMAN: Have you put any thought 2 into making that, you know, more accessible, you know, 3 to people who don't have -- you know, who don't have 4 the means to read the screens or to read the flashing 5 lights, and that sort of thing?6 MS. SCHULZ: Right. That's a really good 7 question. With regard to the handset, we're kind of 8 limited to what's on the marketplace from the 9 manufacturers. And right now we're working with some 10 Asian manufacturers to see what kind of advances 11 they're going to put into the handsets.12 Right now it looks and feels a lot like a 13 cellular telephone in terms of the functionality it 14 offers with the call display information and call log, 15 and the profiles that you are able to set up on the 16 handset itself. But, you know, we'd be happy to 17 address some other advancements with regard to the 18 disability community with the equipment vendors.19 As you are probably aware, the equipment 20 vendors kind of are the ones that are leading the 21 charge with regard to a lot of the devices we're 22 actually able to test and see. So to any way we can 23 help them, move them, toward the disability community 24 and disability community needs, we'd be happy to do 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 67 that.1 MR. POEHLMAN: And is the price the same 2 with the handset as it is with the adapter, or --3 MS. SCHULZ: Yes. Basically, you will 4 need to -- the adapter is free that we send out with 5 regard to our service today. So the black box that I 6 passed around, that's free when you sign up. 7 The soft phone client that I showed here 8 on my computer is an extra phone line, so that's $10. 9 The handset we are thinking about offering -- it 10 won't be free, simply because it's such a new product 11 and we can't get the pricing down yet. But in the 12 future, we hope to be able to offer a bit of a better 13 competitive price on that.14 MS. GRANT: This is just for the mike 15 people. I saw you saw me. Thanks.16 I want to ask about two common complaints 17 that consumers make regarding telephone services, 18 slamming and cramming. Is it possible for a VoIP 19 customer to be switched to another VoIP service 20 without their knowledge and consent? 21 And do you now, or do you foresee, billing 22 on behalf of third parties where there is the 23 potential for unauthorized charges being put on the 24 consumer's bill?25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 68 MS. SCHULZ: Two good questions. With 1 regard to slamming, basically, we haven't seen any 2 instances of it yet. This market is very, very small, 3 and the way our service works, and the way the 4 regulations are defined currently, we're viewed as an 5 information service or as an end user of telecom 6 services.7 So there's a couple of extra steps that we 8 need to go through in terms of switching customers 9 over by porting their numbers over into our system, 10 things like that that we need to take a couple extra 11 steps to do.12 So we haven't seen any instances of 13 slamming yet. Maybe in a couple years it might be an 14 issue, but thus far we haven't seen anything, which is 15 positive, I think.16 The other thing with regard to the service 17 -- what was the other question? I'm sorry.18 MS. GRANT: The other question was about 19 cramming.20 MS. SCHULZ: Cramming.21 MS. GRANT: Which is where third parties 22 represent to the billing --23 MS. SCHULZ: Third party billing, okay.24 MS. GRANT: -- entity that a consumer has 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 69 signed up for a service.1 MS. SCHULZ: We don't do that, because we 2 actually have our own -- we have a -- we purchase an 3 edge network, and we have edge services that are used. 4 Basically, we don't -- the only third party billing 5 you would have to initiate yourself, with regard to 6 like a calling card or something like that. There is 7 no other third party billing that's integrated into 8 our system at this time. 9 So we do everything in terms of the 10 international calling on a permanent rate. We do bill 11 ourselves, and we do have our own private negotiated 12 rates for those calls, as well as our 411 service. So 13 it's kind of a restricted environment right now. So 14 there's no ability for another carrier to come in or 15 another service provider to come in and cram.16 MR. GOLDBERG: I was just taking a look at 17 your website here as we talked. I love the idea of 18 being able to program your service via a website. I'd 19 love to do that with my cell phone, enter all the data 20 in, and with some services you can do that.21 Have you had that checked for 22 accessibility, to make sure that it's fully compliant?23 MS. SCHULZ: With regard to -- no, we 24 haven't. Actually, I don't think we have, but it --25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 70 MR. GOLDBERG: It would be a good idea.1 MS. SCHULZ: If we need to do some 2 testing, I'd be happy to put you in touch with our 3 labs, if you want to get that tested. 4 PARTICIPANT: What is your website?5 MS. SCHULZ: It's Vonage.com. So it's 6 www, dot, V-O-N-A-G-E, dot com.7 PARTICIPANT Thank you.8 MS. SCHULZ: You're welcome.9 MR. SEAGRIFF: Well, thank you very much 10 for your presentation today, first of all, and I have 11 also three questions. That seems to be the number.12 Do you make a software development kit 13 available? You were mentioning people are programming 14 their own services?15 MS. SCHULZ: Right. So first of all, with 16 regard to development we do make certain elements 17 available. With regard to the simul-ring feature, we 18 have made that available by a developer's site, and we 19 are planning on making other elements available in the 20 future.21 Right now, the way Vonage is designed and 22 the way Vonage is built, it's -- I wouldn't say it's 23 proprietary, because it's based on SIP. The code we 24 did write ourselves.25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 71 MR. SEAGRIFF: Sure.1 MS. SCHULZ: So there are certain elements 2 that we need to protect. But we do plan on making a 3 lot of the features and a lot of the capabilities with 4 regard to call routing, with regard to ringing two 5 phones at once, and those kinds of features, available 6 so people can design their own kinds of features and 7 capabilities around that. We think that's a very 8 powerful thing.9 MR. SEAGRIFF: Okay. The second question 10 is: since in your world area codes have nothing to do 11 with your physical location, how do you define local 12 calls in your plans?13 MS. SCHULZ: Basically, that's defined by 14 the area code that you've selected from us. And it's 15 really -- there is really no technical reason for it. 16 It's really a comfort for the consumers who are 17 coming to us from a local operator, because those are 18 the kinds of terms and plans that they understand and 19 they have grown up with.20 So that's why we've incorporated that $25 21 plan into the mix. Maybe in the future we won't need 22 one, because, you know, the nature of consumer habits 23 might change. But for now, that's the reason that 24 we've instituted that plan -- for comfort.25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 72 MR. SEAGRIFF: Okay. And a follow-on to 1 Mike's question before, he was asking about directory 2 assistance. I think part of his question was how are 3 folks that are on your plan in other carriers' 4 directory assistance -- in landline, in wireless 5 carriers' directory assistance? How do you --6 MS. SCHULZ: Okay. For example, the 7 question -- the question I was answering -- Mike's 8 question -- was how can a Vonage subscriber get 9 somebody else's telephone number, and that's through 10 regular, you know, 411. And then the reverse is your 11 question, is how are Vonage customers listed in the 12 phone book today.13 Currently, at this moment right now in 14 time, Vonage customers are not yet listed in the phone 15 book. However, we are working on that with several of 16 our CLEC partners.17 MR. SEAGRIFF: And will that be an opt-in 18 situation?19 MS. SCHULZ: We're not sure. We're not 20 sure.21 MR. SEAGRIFF: Because this is --22 MS. SCHULZ: It likely will be. A lot of 23 our customers like the fact that they're not in the 24 phone book, and they like the fact that their Vonage 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 73 number is not in all of the databases. 1 They don't have to put themselves on the 2 Do Not Call List, and that kind of thing. So it 3 probably will be an opt-in, but it hasn't been 4 determined yet. So we're hoping to get that fixed by 5 the end of this year in terms of getting the 6 incorporation into the white pages.7 MR. SEAGRIFF: Thank you.8 MS. SCHULZ: Sure.9 MS. PALMER-MAZRUI: I only have two 10 questions. I feel kind of bad.11 (Laughter.)12 MS. SCHULZ: You can think of a third one.13 MS. PALMER-MAZRUI: I'll work on it. Many 14 of the carriers provide 411 assistance free for 15 customers who are blind or have disabilities. Are 16 there plans for Vonage to do that?17 MS. SCHULZ: Yes. There's a lot of plans 18 in the works. We're working with Gallaudet University 19 on a bunch of different programs, and including the 20 TTY and TDD.21 MS. PALMER-MAZRUI: Right. Gallaudet 22 works with deaf people?23 MS. SCHULZ: Yes. Oh, I'm sorry. We'd be 24 happy to --25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 74 MS. PALMER-MAZRUI: Maybe outreach to 1 other groups might be good.2 MS. SCHULZ: Yes, that's fine, and we'd be 3 happy to do that.4 MS. PALMER-MAZRUI: The other question I 5 have is: are your phones hearing aid compatible?6 MS. SCHULZ: Yes. To the extent that the 7 CISCO devices we've used in the past have been tested 8 with TTY and TDD units, they are compatible. And 9 also, there is a bunch of handsets on the marketplace, 10 I believe, that are compatible that you can use with 11 the hearing aid devices. But we'd be happy to do more 12 testing if you're interested in specific compatibility 13 issues.14 MS. GRANT: I guess this is my third 15 question. I'm assuming that Vonage doesn't pay into 16 the universal service fund?17 MS. SCHULZ: We actually --18 MS. GRANT: Is that correct?19 MS. SCHULZ: We pay in in a different way. 20 We pay in on an indirect basis, because we are billed 21 by our IXC partners for termination on the PSTN. So 22 they bill us back a lump sum that includes several 23 regulatory and public service surcharges. So we pay 24 those on your behalf. We don't pass them through the 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 75 same way an RBOC would or a landline operator would.1 MS. GRANT: Okay. Great.2 MS. LIPTROT-BANNIER: Are you 711 3 accessible?4 MS. SCHULZ: Not yet. We're working on 5 that. There are some technical developments that we 6 need to work on with our hardware-markers and firmware 7 that makes that compatible. So we are working on 8 that, though, currently.9 Yes?10 MR. GORDON: To build on Susan's question 11 about hearing aid compatibility, do your phones also 12 have amplification features on them?13 MS. SCHULZ: Basically, it's the adapter. 14 So if your phone handset you're using has 15 amplification on it, it should work, because we really 16 just give you the adapter. So you kind of bring your 17 own handset to the setup. So if your phone handset 18 has an amplifier on it, it should work fine.19 MR. ALLIBONE: I've got a question.20 MS. SCHULZ: Sure.21 MR. ALLIBONE: I've been told to go easy. 22 Seriously.23 (Laughter.)24 Does your service offer any kind of 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 76 blocking from things like 700 and 900 calls for 1 adult --2 MS. SCHULZ: Yes.3 MR. ALLIBONE: -- entertainment?4 MS. SCHULZ: Yes.5 MR. ALLIBONE: Not that I'm interested.6 MS. SCHULZ: Yes. No.7 (Laughter.)8 Yes. We actually don't -- there is no 9 700/900 accessibility. And we actually do -- we 10 actually do allow you to set your Vonage service to 11 block international calls, which are billed on a 12 permanent rate. So if you don't want your phone to be 13 used for international calling, you can set that 14 yourself. But as the service is today, we don't 15 connect to 900 or 700 numbers. 16 Yes? Third question.17 MS. PALMER-MAZRUI: Yes, I finally came up 18 with one.19 MS. SCHULZ: Good.20 MS. PALMER-MAZRUI: And pardon my 21 ignorance on this. I noticed that during 9-11 there 22 was really slow service on the Internet. What happens 23 in that type of situation? Is that impacted at all? 24 And what happens to voice and also to TTY calls under 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 77 those circumstances?1 MS. SCHULZ: That's a good question. As 2 you're probably aware, disaster recovery is a big 3 thing. With regard to our service, out networks and 4 the back-end service that we provide and our NOC and 5 our databases are all on special connections, so those 6 likely would not slow down. What you're talking about 7 is the last mile connection to your home that might be 8 impacted if there were to be some sort of emergency or 9 some sort of heavy traffic load on it. That's largely 10 dependent upon your broadband operator in terms of the 11 speeds that they can provide and in a disaster what 12 reliability they'll be able to offer you. But our 13 back-end system and our system would largely be 14 probably unimpacted.15 MS. PALMER-MAZRUI: One more. Do you have 16 redundant power systems --17 MS. SCHULZ: Yes.18 MS. PALMER-MAZRUI: -- in your offices?19 MS. SCHULZ: Yes, we do. Actually, during 20 the blackout -- I'll give you a little anecdotal story 21 -- in the blackout, our service didn't skip a beat, 22 worked beautifully through the entire blackout. And 23 we actually had customers who had -- they were up in, 24 I think, Connecticut, where their landline service 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 78 went down and they were actually able to use our 1 service over cable modem all through the blackout 2 because they were on either a power service and their 3 cable operator was still providing service. So we had 4 some pretty good success stories during the blackout.5 MR. DELCASINO: It's Mike again. In 6 relation to that, the question came to me while you 7 were answering her's, I noticed there's the wall input 8 jack on the back of your adapter. Could that be 9 fitted with a battery backup so that in case of power 10 outage your handsets then would still function?11 And also you mentioned that Time Warner is 12 working on a similar system or on a somewhat similar 13 system. Time Warner is my current ISP. So will your 14 system work over their lines or does that mean that I 15 have to wait and buy theirs.16 MS. SCHULZ: Two good questions. With 17 regard to battery backup, we actually surveyed --18 after the blackout, we actually surveyed our customer 19 base in the Northeast, and we found that between ten 20 and 12 percent of our customers actually already had 21 battery backups on their homes. There's a device 22 called an uninterruptable power source that you can 23 purchase at Best Buy for about $40, and a lot of 24 people were using that during the blackout, and it 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 79 seemed to service them fine. Obviously, we let people 1 decide whether or not they would like to use those on 2 their own. We don't currently provide battery backup 3 as a facility of the service.4 With regard to Time Warner, actually, I am 5 a Time Warner customer too, and I currently use my 6 Vonage service over my high speed, my Roadrunner 7 service at home. So what's interesting is you can use 8 Vonage service over any high-speed Internet 9 connection. I just use it over this wireless 10 connection here at the FCC, but you can also use it 11 over a cable model or DSL regardless of your provider. 12 So that's a good advantage for people.13 MS. LIPTROT-BANNIER: I have three 14 questions.15 (Laughter.)16 MS. SCHULZ: Sticking to theme, that's 17 great.18 MS. LIPTROT-BANNIER: First, you mentioned 19 that high speed, what's the minimum?20 MS. SCHULZ: Oh, that's a good question. 21 Minimum -- actually, with our service it uses very 22 little bandwidth, so it uses between 30 and 90 23 kilobits per second of up-speed and down-speed. So 24 the minimum -- very minimum speed is usually 128 for a 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 80 very slow DSL connection. So it usually works fine 1 over that. And when I say the range, 30 to 90, our 2 device that we send out to you is set to use 90, but 3 if you notice that you're on a 128, you can dial down 4 the speed to 30 if you choose to do that. So you have 5 the ability to set the speed that the device uses 6 between 90, 60 and 30 depending on your high speed's 7 capability.8 MS. LIPTROT-BANNIER: Okay. Second 9 question, how does a Vonage call appear on caller Id?10 MS. SCHULZ: Usually the number shows up. 11 Do you mean outbound or inbound?12 MS. LIPTROT-BANNIER: Outbound.13 MS. SCHULZ: Outbound. So if I'm calling 14 from a Vonage phone, I'm calling you on a landline.15 MS. LIPTROT-BANNIER: Right.16 MS. SCHULZ: The number will show up. 17 Sometimes it will show up with your name depending on 18 if the carrier will pass it through all the way. So 19 it's largely dependent on the carriers in between the 20 hops if they pass it through.21 MS. LIPTROT-BANNIER: Okay. And third 22 question, what about call drops or distortion?23 MS. SCHULZ: That's a good question. It 24 all really depends on your bandwidth. It all comes 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 81 back to how high speed is your high speed at home. 1 With regard to drops and echoes and quality issues, 2 largely if you're on a cable modem, you usually don't 3 really experience any problems. The only problems we 4 really see is people using DSL that are on like a 128 5 where they might have some choppiness, but, by and 6 large, it's dependent upon your high speed, and, like 7 I said, you can set the bandwidth that it uses. And 8 most of our customers find it as good as a landline in 9 terms of the quality.10 MR. SNOOP: Follow-up question for you. 11 Your service uses the Internet, which in some cases is 12 a managed Internet backbone, in other cases it's an 13 unmanaged Internet backbone. Therefore, you're 14 dependent on the quality of that backbone service. If 15 you're calling between here and Arizona and you're 16 calling in from a Time Warner service, which is 17 managed, into something else that may be unmanaged, 18 you have no control over that.19 MS. SCHULZ: Right.20 MR. SNOOP: So you may have quality issues 21 that you really don't have control over.22 MS. SCHULZ: By and large, the quality 23 issues that we see are related to the last mile 24 connection that you're using, the bandwidth 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 82 constraints that you have at your home. Yes, we do 1 use the public Internet, we do use the publicly 2 available resources there, so we haven't seen yet any 3 issues with regard to constraint or slowness on the 4 public Internet, because the public Internet is quite 5 fast. However, once you are on the customer's 6 premises or in that last mile, oftentimes you see 7 constraint there because, for example, a neighborhood 8 might be oversold for the cable modem service and 9 there might be a lot of people using the same 10 connection at once.11 And that's really just a function of 12 broadband deployment and the advances that happen in 13 the broadband arena. So we do understand that but we 14 have put in some controls to allow you to dial-down 15 the speed if you do notice some quality issues, but we 16 think we're doing a pretty good job with the phone.17 MR. DELCASINO: Is there a cancellation 18 option or are we under a contract for a certain 19 minimum period, like with most cell phone providers? 20 What happens if I buy this and I think, "Boy, this is 21 really terrible, I want to send it back."22 MS. SCHULZ: That's a really good 23 question. We actually don't require you to sign a 24 contract. There is no contract. It's a 30-day 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 83 revolving term that you sign with us. So, for 1 example, you sign up for service and you decide 30 2 days later you want to cancel, we actually give you a 3 money-back guarantee for the first 30 days. If you 4 try it out and you don't like it, you can send it back 5 free of charge. And then after that you can choose to 6 disconnect at any time. We don't require you to sign 7 a year contract or anything like that.8 MR. POEHLMAN: This is Dave Poehlman with 9 the American Council of the Blind again. You 10 mentioned you have dial-down controls. Exactly where 11 are they and how are they operated?12 MS. SCHULZ: Again, the dial-down controls 13 are all controlled through your web portal, through 14 the vonage.com.15 MR. POEHLMAN: Oh, okay.16 MS. SCHULZ: Basically, you have to go to 17 vonage.com and log in, similar to the way you would 18 log into Yahoo or public sort of email account. It 19 basically has all of your phone service settings, all 20 your Vonage settings that live in that portal, so you 21 could dial down the service there.22 MR. POEHLMAN: Speaking of the web portal, 23 do you have or have any plans to offer that also 24 through voice response over the phone, through the 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 84 phone service?1 MS. SCHULZ: We're working on a lot of 2 different things, and if you'd like to test some new 3 applications, we'd be happy to test them in our lab. 4 But we haven't seen any real testing of that yet, and 5 we'd be happy to test it if you'd like to get 6 something going like that.7 MR. POEHLMAN: Well, I only ask because 8 one of the providers is actually going to be doing 9 that.10 MS. SCHULZ: AT&T?11 (Laughter.)12 MR. POEHLMAN: Yes.13 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Well, Brooke, I think 14 you can -- we'll have one more question, Mark.15 MR. PRANGER: My question has to do with 16 blocking international calls. Can you also block down 17 to where you only make calls in certain area codes, 18 like just to 918 area code or 405?19 MS. SCHULZ: No, not yet, because the way 20 our plans are structured we don't really see that as a 21 necessity yet. But, obviously, if consumers demand 22 it, we'll build it.23 MR. PRANGER: I was thinking kids, keep 24 the kids from calling outside the local area.25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 85 MS. SCHULZ: So the way our plans are 1 designed we have the 500-minute base plan, which is 2 500 minutes of anywhere calling throughout the U.S. 3 and Canada. Then we have the next plan is $10 more at 4 $25 and that's unlimited local calling, including 500 5 minutes of calling throughout the U.S. and Canada 6 outside that local area as defined by the area code. 7 So if you're on a $25 plan or a $35 plan, all the 8 calls to that local area would be included in your 9 plan, so there wouldn't be really a control mechanism 10 that you would need. But maybe for the 500 minute 11 plan we'd maybe think about building something like 12 that if we saw a strong desire from our base for it.13 MR. PRANGER: And who do I complain to 14 when something goes wrong?15 MS. SCHULZ: Call -- the number is 1-16 Vonage-Help. We have a 24-hour-a-day help center 17 that's manned by real people. We have a call center 18 in Edison, New Jersey. We have about 100 people that 19 staff it, 24 hours a day, seven days a week.20 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Brooke, thank you so 21 much. Obviously, from all these questions, you've 22 been a real hit.23 (Applause.)24 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: We appreciate your 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 86 time.1 MS. SCHULZ: Thank you.2 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Fascinating stuff. I 3 wish I understood it.4 (Laughter.)5 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Before we go on to6 our next agenda item, I'd like to just take a minute 7 and say to you we need to get the emergency forms from 8 you. If you haven't done those, please do them and 9 turn them into me. Also, just a couple of reminders. 10 If you want to suggest agenda items for next meeting, 11 please do so. I've gotten one already that we have a 12 presentation from the FCC on how they've implemented 13 the recommendations that we made with regards to their 14 web site. So we'll take that one up and see if we 15 can't put it on the agenda for next meeting.16 In addition to that, I'd like to ask for 17 you to put your generous thinking cap on and to 18 remember that we are looking for some assistance for 19 Rebecca Ladew to get her to these meetings. It's just 20 a few hundred dollars. We'd really appreciate it. 21 And, secondly, if we're going to eat the next meeting, 22 somebody's going to have to help underwrite lunch and 23 breakfast. So -- oh, Susan, you're a doll. We'll 24 take you up on that. You were aware, Susan, that you 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 87 were pledging money. Thank you. She's going to cook, 1 right. She's not going to bring homemade sandwiches 2 to us. And thanks, Cindy Cox, again for lunch today. 3 It was excellent. Esey's does a very nice job.4 So having done those little housekeeping 5 items -- oh, by the way, and it's a little bit early 6 to ask for this but who needs cabs, because we do want 7 to order them and I don't want to forget. So let me 8 just see how many people need cabs? Hands up. We 9 need one, two, three, four, five. Five cabs. Is four 10 o'clock okay for that? Six. All right, we've got 11 six. Penny also. So we've got Vernon, Penny, Joe, 12 Ann, Chris and Cindy. Yes, Mike?13 MR. DELCASINO: I have to leave at four to 14 go to National Airport with my wife. If somebody 15 needs to go that way, we're leaving from here going 16 straight there if somebody wants to --17 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Does anybody need to 18 go to National Airport? Cindy does, so we'll take 19 Cindy -- all right, we'll take Cindy and Penny. Can 20 we get four people in there? Okay. As long as you 21 don't have too much luggage. You didn't bring your 22 whole wardrobe, right? This is not a fancy dress 23 meeting. Okay. So we only need four cabs. Cindy and 24 Penny will go with Mike and his wife. Thank you, 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 88 Mike, for that offer.1 Okay. We are about to turn the program 2 over to one of our own, David Poehlman who's with the 3 Consumer Complaints Outreach Education and 4 Participation Working Group, and he's going to talk 5 about electronic access to the FCC. David, it's all 6 yours.7 MR. POEHLMAN: Thank you, Shirley. See, I 8 did remember your name. Good afternoon, everybody. 9 Hope you all had a good lunch. We certainly had a 10 good VoIP presentation.11 I'm not going to spend a lot of time 12 warming up, I'm the warm-up act here for this, because 13 I want us to get into the meat of and go right through 14 what we have to present. Basically, what's going to 15 happen is I'm going to talk a little bit to get the 16 groundwork laid, and then we're going to turn it over 17 to Claude who's going to present our formal 18 recommendations to you all, and then Susan is going to 19 wrap up and I may have something to say and Susan may 20 have something to say in the interim as well.21 First, before I actually do the 22 introduction, I just want to say that this has been a 23 very fluid dynamic process over the past several 24 months right up through this morning when we talked 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 89 about how we're going to present and what we -- some 1 possible additional notes that we're going to add. So 2 we hope that this is informative for you and that it 3 produces a good set of effective recommendations to 4 move forward with.5 Over the past several months, the 6 Modernizing the FCC Subgroup of the Consumer 7 Complaints Outreach and Education Working Group -- it 8 was so big we had to split it up into several groups 9 -- worked with other Consumer Advisory Committee 10 members and staff of the Federal Communications 11 Commission to gain insight into the FCC's modernizing 12 activities and plans.13 After the initial meeting, the members of 14 the Education and Outreach -- Complaints and Outreach 15 Working Group were provided with a summary of each 16 meeting and had an opportunity to review and modify 17 the recommendations developed by our subgroup. The 18 results of this joint effort are attached below. We 19 now propose that the CAC as a whole review the 20 recommendations and carefully consider formally 21 presenting their approved recommendations to the 22 Commission in the March meeting.23 In addition, we would like to discuss with 24 the CAC an appropriate time line for an FCC response 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 90 to the recommendations. Our subgroup will also be 1 happy to work further on recommendations or discussion 2 points that the Committee, the CAC suggests. We 3 appreciate the efforts of Committee members who have 4 joined us in this work and the opportunity to discuss 5 the important issues with the Commission. Anyone 6 wishing to join the Modernization of the FCC Subgroup 7 in these and other efforts identified by the CAC are 8 most welcome and appreciated.9 And pretty much with that I'll turn it 10 over to Claude who will go through the regulations.11 MR. STOUT: (Through Translator.) Here are 12 the recommendations. First, consistent with the 13 Department of Justice --14 MR. POEHLMAN: You're not miked.15 MR. STOUT: Is it on now? Consistent with 16 Department of Justice guidelines establish and 17 regularly update controls, policies, methods and 18 procedures to ensure that as the FCC site changes it 19 will maintain, remains accessible to people with 20 disabilities. And we have a list of elements 21 underneath this recommendation that I'd like to go 22 through.23 First, focus special attention on the ECFS 24 Express, the complaint form that encourages -- and 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 91 areas that encourage public involvement. Second, 1 follow the access board and the WAI, the Web Access 2 Initiative, guidelines for web access as part of the 3 quality controls, review the site with community 4 organizations or companies that specialize in web 5 accessibility for people with disabilities. Third, 6 ensure adequate resources are allocated to make 7 modifications needed in order to comply with Section 8 508 requirements.9 Next, improve the search functionality and 10 usability of the Electronic Comment Filing System, 11 ECFS Express complaint form and E-Docs system. Next, 12 develop voluntary guidelines for comment submissions 13 that will improve accessibility to people with 14 disabilities and reduce conversion costs for FCC staff 15 as well as improve the ability of the public to more 16 effectively search public comments and documents 17 converted to electronic formats by the Commission.18 Next, to reduce cost to the FCC, research 19 and as appropriate adopt automated tools that convert 20 PDF files into other formats. The last one, add 21 streaming video of various events, live and archived, 22 to the Commission's web site and add captions to those 23 clips as needed.24 That's the first recommendation. Now 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 92 moving on to the second recommendation. Develop an 1 action plan that will make the FCC web site more 2 usable for people over 50 and for those for whom 3 English is a second language. And so this would be a 4 review -- review this site for cultural sensitivity as 5 well would be included in that.6 Our third recommendation was to compile 7 and disseminate a list of best practices that have 8 been developed or noted by the Consumer and Government 9 Affairs Bureau or others inside and outside the FCC 10 for outreach to diverse communities using high-tech 11 and low-tech means.12 Our next recommendation, to provide 13 training opportunities for FCC personnel to ensure 14 that expertise is developed and maintained at the 15 Commission regarding the telecommunication needs of 16 diverse populations, including but not limited to 17 individuals with disabilities, seniors and those 18 living in rural and tribal lands.19 Our fifth recommendation was to make the 20 public aware of the work the FCC has done and is doing 21 to ensure that information provided in electronic 22 formats reaches those who do not have access to 23 computers. Efforts to make telecommunications 24 available to populations that have historically been 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 93 underrepresented in use or availability of technology 1 and to comply with Section 508 requirements.2 And last, but not least, to expand the 3 Parent's Place to include information about captioning 4 for literacy and for children and parents with hearing 5 disabilities. Thank you. Susan?6 MS. PALMER-MAZRUI: Yes. I'm here. 7 Destroying things here. First of all, we want to 8 thank the staff members that we met with as well as 9 many, many of the members on the Consumer Advisory 10 Committee for their input onto these recommendations.11 Our concerns cover a range of things. One 12 is that, first of all, there are certain aspects of 13 the FCC web site that are excellent, they're really 14 outstanding. There are other aspects, the electronic 15 common filing system, for example, that have serious 16 barriers. So we don't see a sense of consistency 17 throughout the web site, and we really believe that 18 not just in terms of accessibility but in terms of 19 literacy and language issues that there needs to be 20 more consistency across the entire web site.21 Earlier, Commissioner Adelstein mentioned 22 an award they won. Well, when you're looking at 23 awards, I don't think you can assume that that means 24 you're doing everything right. You really have to 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 94 look at how the data is collected. And in this case, 1 the data really didn't look at can you go from Point A 2 to Point B on the site. So, for example, having 90 3 percent of your site accessible but the one percent or 4 the ten percent that's not having information like how 5 do you get a number so that you can then make a change 6 in a license for a ham radio operator, those are 7 critical pieces, and all those pieces need to be 8 accessible.9 If on the complaint form there's 10 information that's inaccurate, dated, companies that 11 don't exist are on there or it's not usable, then that 12 does hinder your ability to interact with the system. 13 And we think we really need to have more 14 consistencies is policies, procedures, methods in 15 place to ensure that there's some level of consistent 16 quality and that the focus needs to be on what 17 consumers need to know and how they can interact with 18 the FCC because we don't believe that that's being 19 done consistently and as effectively as it could be. 20 There's a lot of talent here and the responsiveness 21 has been very good, but you shouldn't have to wait for 22 a complaint from a consumer to tell you that a 23 flashing marquee might induce seizures in people. 24 There should be some place prior to that that would 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 95 catch problems before they're put out.1 We also want to make sure that when there 2 is a chance for people to have access electronically 3 that we don't forget that many people don't 4 necessarily have that connection. They may not have 5 the capability, they may not have a computer, and so 6 that we're pleased that with the Outreach Group that 7 they're also looking at that piece. But we need to 8 keep in mind that this cannot be the sole way of 9 communicating with people.10 We also would like to see some revisions 11 in terms of usability across the board. Some of the 12 forms that are in place are not easily searchable, 13 they're not easily filled out or they may be 14 confusing. So some work needs to be done in terms of 15 usability, both for general consumers and seniors and 16 people of other cultures and other languages.17 So there's a range of work that needs to 18 be done, and we'd like to see a plan in place to 19 approach it. Like I said, there's been some very good 20 work done. We also want to see that good work 21 highlighted so that other bureaus perhaps can take 22 advantage of the work that has been done and the 23 ideas, so a more consistent effort.24 So we also want to invite at the next 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 96 meeting and suggest that we have representatives who 1 worked on the web site to come and tell us what they 2 plan to do and how they plan to address these concerns 3 and what other great creative things do they have, for 4 example, for youth coming down the pike, because we 5 would like to know it's moving forward. But we want 6 to see a plan in place. We want to see a systematic 7 approach that's going to prevent problems, that's 8 going to raise the level to an equally high ground 9 across the bureaus and will provide maximum access and 10 usability by a range of U.S. customers of telecom 11 systems.12 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Thank you, Susan. Do 13 we have other -- these are the recommendations from 14 the Working Group. So I think our next steps is to 15 discuss these. Mike, did you have a comment?16 MR. DELCASINO: If you're ready for 17 questions, yes, I did.18 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Sure. I think --19 what I was thinking that we should do is to take these 20 by each section and discuss them or maybe you don't 21 have questions about a lot of the sections and we'll 22 just leave it open for discussion. What's the 23 preference of the Committee? Just go through them --24 we should walk through them, right? Orderly? Okay.25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 97 MR. STOUT: (Through Translator.) Would 1 you like me to repeat the recommendations we made?2 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Yes. I think what 3 we'll do --4 MR. STOUT: (Through Translator.) The 5 recommendations themselves?6 MR. DELCASINO: I think mine will go into 7 the first recommendation, but that would be very 8 helpful.9 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Okay. Why don't we 10 go back and I tried writing things down but I'm not 11 sure that I got it. So let's go to Recommendation 12 Number 1, which is establish and update the control 13 and policies, methods and procedures to make sure that 14 the web site stays accessible to people with 15 disabilities. And I believe within that there were 16 six -- I think six -- seven -- six recommendations 17 that fell within the main category Number 1. So why 18 don't we take those, those substeps to 1, in order. 19 Is that okay?20 All right. The first one has to do with 21 the express complaint form. If you would read that to 22 us, please, Jeffrey -- no, who are you? I'm sorry. 23 No. Claude, yes. It's been a long day.24 MR. STOUT: Read the mini recommendation 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 98 or the items under the recommendation, which one?1 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: I think the first 2 recommendation has to do with the accessibility of --3 well, go ahead and read the whole thing, Claude. I 4 think that makes more sense. Read the first major 5 recommendation and the first item under that.6 MR. STOUT: Okay. Consistent with 7 Department of Justice guidelines, establish and 8 regularly update quality controls, policies, methods 9 and procedures to ensure that as the FCC site changes 10 it remains accessible to people with disabilities.11 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: That's the major goal 12 right there, right? Okay. Susan?13 MS. PALMER-MAZRUI: I don't know if people 14 are aware that I think you have the recommendations in 15 your packet, so you can also look at it --16 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Oh, we do? Somehow 17 my packet disappeared. Who stole it? I have to speak 18 to you all. You just didn't want me to know what I 19 was doing, did you, and you didn't think I brought 20 another copy of the agenda with me. I don't know what 21 happened to it. It has gone. But at any rate --22 okay, here we go. But within that there are some 23 things that I believe that you stated that were not 24 written down; is that correct?25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 99 MR. STOUT: They're written down. They're 1 all written down.2 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Oh, they're all 3 written down?4 MR. STOUT: Yes.5 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Okay. Oh, yes, they 6 are. Then why don't we take the first one? Claude, 7 this is your committee. How do you want us to 8 proceed? Your committee report.9 MR. STOUT: Oh, well, basically, what I'm 10 asking you is to approve all the recommendations.11 (Laughter.)12 MR. STOUT: And if you can approve all 13 these recommendations, as a whole, then that would be 14 great.15 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: I think we probably 16 do need to discuss them. Is that the general feeling?17 MR. STOUT: Okay. Okay.18 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Okay. Mike?19 MR. DELCASINO: Okay. My question I think 20 does fall into one of the areas of this first 21 recommendation. Let me preface it by saying that I'm 22 aware that there have recently been changes made to 23 what is called the Universal Licensing or License 24 System -- Susan referred to it briefly a while ago. I 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 100 understand there recently have been some changes made 1 to it, which I have not had a chance to go and look 2 at. But did you look at all at the ULS portion of the 3 web site and have any specific recommendations about 4 it?5 MR. POEHLMAN: Can I take this? I looked 6 at that section of the web site and because I didn't 7 have an ID, I couldn't get in -- I had no way of 8 getting into the system that requires you to fill out 9 forms and stuff. I didn't have an ID. I did look at 10 it. I don't know how much change there's been, 11 because I hadn't seen it before, to be honest. But it 12 looked -- you know, I mean, I can find things but I 13 couldn't do anything because I didn't have an ID.14 MS. PALMER-MAZRUI: Yes. And let me 15 respond a little bit. That was an example of things 16 that we've heard from consumers where there's been a 17 difficulty that was -- the rest of the site may be 18 fully accessible, but there was a problem, it wasn't 19 looked at beforehand. It actually became probably 20 more problematic than it needed to, but in that case 21 there needed to be a process in place. And I think 22 that when they're implementing anything, they need to 23 go from end to end to say, "Okay, I'm a user of this 24 service or if I need this information, can I make it 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 101 all the way through?" And that was an example for 1 that reason. It may have been fixed by now, it may 2 not have been, but it shouldn't have been put in in 3 the first place.4 MR. DELCASINO: I do have an ID and I'll 5 be glad to report back to you on that, David. But I 6 will say this: I tried to use it and wound up going 7 to an off-site service that says, "Send us six bucks 8 and we'll do it for you." And later -- I didn't feel 9 so bad because after several months later one of my 10 sighted ham radio friends who was having to make the 11 same license change that I was, which was a change of 12 address, called me and said, "How the heck do you do 13 that," and I said, "Well, here's how I did it," and he 14 said, "Oh, okay. I'll do that too."15 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Okay. We're looking 16 at the first suggestion about the, I believe, how do 17 you think we should do this? Should we take each 18 section, we discuss it and then vote on it or vote on 19 it as a whole? Each one, okay.20 So the first one, the focusing special 21 attention on the filing system, is that a consent, do 22 we have a unanimous consent on that recommendation? 23 Okay.24 Number 2, follow the access board 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 102 guidelines for web access as part of quality control, 1 also bringing in community organizations or companies 2 that specialize in web accessibility for people with 3 disabilities. Do we have discussion on that item? 4 Are we okay on that? All right. Do we have a vote? 5 Do we have anyone dissenting? I guess that's the 6 easiest way to do it. Joe?7 MR. GORDON: When you say community 8 organizations, that would also include consumer 9 organizations; is that --10 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Should we amend that 11 to say community and consumer?12 MS. GRANT: Sure.13 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Would that be all 14 right?15 MS. PALMER-MAZRUI: That's fine.16 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Okay. So we'll make 17 that amendment. All right. With that change, do we 18 have consent on that one? Anyone dissenting? Okay. 19 Moving on.20 Ensure adequate resources are allocated to 21 make modifications needed or to comply with Section 22 508. Any discussion or questions on that one? No? 23 We accept it? No one dissenting. All right. Thank 24 you.25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 103 Improve the search functionality and 1 usability of the Electronic Comment Filing System, 2 ECFS Express, the complaint form and the E-Docs 3 System. Any comments, questions? All right. We 4 accept that as is? And any dissenting? All right. 5 We take that one.6 Develop voluntary guidelines for comment 7 submissions that will improve accessibility to people 8 with disabilities and reduce the conversion costs for 9 the FCC staff as well as improve the ability of the 10 public to more effectively search public comments and 11 documents converted to electronic formats by the 12 Commission. Boy, that's a long sentence. I'm not 13 sure that I understand that. Can we discuss that? 14 Susan?15 MS. PALMER-MAZRUI: One of the things that 16 they have are guidelines for filing comments. We 17 notice in the guidelines although they were several 18 pages long, there was nothing about accessibility, and 19 we believe that if you make the site -- the comments 20 more accessible, and we think that's a learning 21 experience for many people, that often it makes the 22 documents more searchable. So we think they need to 23 look at what they're suggesting and include how when24 you're filing you can make your comments more 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 104 accessible.1 Now, we're not saying that you cannot file 2 unless you follow these guidelines because we want to 3 take in the information, we want the FCC to take 4 information from a variety of sources, by phone and 5 fax and other things, but if you're going to do it 6 electronically, why not do it in a way that's 7 including more people than inadvertently excluding 8 them? And we think that the FCC has a responsibility 9 to help develop those guidelines and help those who10 are doing filings, especially major companies or 11 organizations, understand what they can do to do a 12 more inclusive job.13 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Okay. I guess the 14 part that I'm confused about is why do we have the 15 reduced conversion costs for the FCC staff as part of 16 that?17 MR. POEHLMAN: I was just going to --18 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Oh, David, you're 19 going to speak to that?20 MR. POEHLMAN: Yes. I was just going to 21 speak to that. The reason that that's -- and it could 22 be two sentences, I guess, but it comes under the same 23 heading because while you're submitting accessible 24 electronic documents, it decreases the burden on the 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 105 FCC for conversion. Because if you file an accessible 1 electronic document, then the FCC doesn't have to 2 convert it. So we put it in there for that reason.3 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Perhaps what we need 4 to do on this is to restate and do put a period after 5 the --6 MR. POEHLMAN: Okay.7 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: -- "people with 8 disabilities." I think I'd be more comfortable with 9 that. And then this will -- in other words, we could 10 say that these guidelines will help reduce the cost 11 for the FCC staff and improve." Would that be 12 acceptable?13 MR. POEHLMAN: Yes.14 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: And take out the, 15 "and," and say, "These guidelines would reduce the 16 conversion costs for the FCC staff and improve the 17 ability of the public to search public comments and 18 documents." I think we can just take out the, 19 "convert to electronic formats by the Commission." 20 Can we do that? I'm just trying to make it a little 21 bit simpler. Is that significant?22 MR. DELCASINO: Can you read what you want 23 to say?24 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Sure. "Develop 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 106 voluntary guidelines for comment submissions that will 1 improve accessibility to people with disabilities. 2 These guidelines will reduce conversion costs for FCC 3 staff and improve the ability of the public to more 4 effectively search public comments and documents."5 MR. DELCASINO: That works.6 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Okay?7 MS. PALMER-MAZRUI: And I'm always telling 8 my daughter to make her sentences shorter.9 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Well, that's because 10 I'm on the radio. You only have one minute and you 11 have to say a lot --12 MS. PALMER-MAZRUI: It's much better. 13 Thank you.14 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: -- and you don't use 15 long sentences. I'm only trying to make it a little 16 more understandable, and, frankly, I didn't fully 17 understand it.18 MS. PALMER-MAZRUI: That's great. Yes. I 19 think that's great.20 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Okay? All right. So 21 are we moving this one ahead? Is there agreement or 22 any dissent on it? Okay. So we accept that one.23 To reduce cost to the FCC, research and as 24 appropriate adopt automated tools that convert PDF 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 107 files into other formats.1 MR. STOUT: I have an addition to that 2 one.3 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Okay.4 MR. STOUT: PDF and other electronic 5 formats.6 MS. PALMER-MAZRUI: Convert PDF --7 MR. STOUT: PDF files and other electronic 8 formats.9 MS. PALMER-MAZRUI: That's confusing.10 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: May I make a 11 recommendation? I'm not sure that we need to 12 necessarily say, "to reduce costs to the FCC." I mean 13 that may be one of the outgrowths of some of the 14 suggestions that you've made, which are going to 15 facilitate the complaints, are going to require less 16 time and work in the effort of the FCC, but do we know 17 that for a fact?18 MR. STOUT: It will. I mean it will do 19 that.20 MS. PALMER-MAZRUI: It's being done 21 manually right now.22 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Okay.23 MS. PALMER-MAZRUI: But the critical point 24 is that they need to find a more -- an automated way 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 108 of dealing with it.1 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: So what we really 2 want to say is that we want them to research and adopt 3 automated tools that convert PDF files and other 4 electronic formats --5 MR. STOUT: To accessible forms.6 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: And other electronic 7 files into accessible formats?8 MS. PALMER-MAZRUI: Yes. It could be 9 inaccessible or PDF and other inaccessible --10 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Okay. I see Eugene's 11 hand?12 MR. SEAGRIFF: I'm not so sure about this 13 item. My feeling is if the voluntary guidelines were 14 being followed, then the issue isn't any particular 15 file format, whether it be PDF or any other. If those 16 guidelines are followed, you're okay. The area where 17 I think the biggest problem lies is when people scan 18 paper documents into PDF and then those are posted, 19 and I don't know of any system that would help in 20 converting those. Maybe David does. He's saying shut 21 up there, so perhaps he can speak more on this.22 MR. POEHLMAN: Yes. Just to kind of 23 clarify this particular --24 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Hold your hand up, 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 109 David.1 MR. POEHLMAN: Just to clarify this 2 particular piece, basically what we're getting at here 3 is anything that the FCC puts up, let's say, on its 4 own what we're looking for is we're looking for them 5 to find ways that facilitate -- electronically 6 facilitate the transfer process into something more 7 accessible. We do understand that there are some 8 things that nothing is going to fix, and hopefully the 9 voluntary guidelines will reduce those instances, but 10 even if somebody does submit a PDF that they think 11 might be accessible, and maybe it is, the tool will 12 catch any issues that might dribble out of that and 13 fix them.14 We're looking for somewhat of an automated 15 process that will lessen the burden on the FCC to 16 produce this, because right now if you take a PDF 17 document that has text in it or whatever and you tag 18 it by hand or you use one of the tools, you still have 19 to fix it by hand, and it's very difficult to do. But 20 you can write scripts and there's things you can do to 21 make this a much less overwhelming process, and they 22 have a lot of documents to process, so we're just kind 23 of looking at recommending that maybe they seek a 24 solution or a set of solutions that will help them do 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 110 it quicker, faster, more efficiently.1 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Byron, stick your 2 hand up.3 MR. ST. CLAIR: Byron St. Clair. Since 4 all of us can read PDF, I guess I don't understand why 5 this is even a problem, and I'm wondering why we 6 should bother the FCC with it? And, furthermore, I 7 think recent versions of Word will read PDF if you 8 need to do that. It seems to me just extraneous.9 MR. POEHLMAN: We'll take this offline, 10 Byron, and I can talk to you about it.11 PARTICIPANT: If you're sighted, you can 12 read PDF.13 MR. ST. CLAIR: Pardon?14 PARTICIPANT: If you're sighted, you can 15 read PDF.16 MR. ST. CLAIR: If you cite?17 PARTICIPANT: If you have vision.18 MR. ST. CLAIR: Oh, oh. I see. Okay. 19 Well, they're going to convert -- maybe I don't 20 understand what they want to convert to.21 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Let's see if Susan 22 can add to this discussion.23 MS. PALMER-MAZRUI: Basically, the problem 24 with PDF files, which is one of the reasons that a lot 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 111 of agencies will shy away from them, is that they do 1 create barriers for people who are blind. There are 2 more advancements. Some of them are okay, some of 3 them can have settings that make them inaccessible. 4 But at this point, when there are documents that are 5 being worked on from PDF because the FCC would not 6 want to do that as a sole posting of a document 7 because of the lack of accessibility, it's being done 8 manually.9 And so the purpose of this is to say let's 10 not just do a patch job with this. Let's look at what 11 possibilities are out there and start implementing the 12 things that are more automated, which would increase 13 their efficiency, drive down their cost and make more 14 documents accessible than could be done if it's done 15 by a few people by hand.16 Now, if the tools that are out there are 17 terrible, then obviously they wouldn't adopt them. 18 But we do want them to research that and implement it 19 as appropriate. And PDF is a major barrier for many 20 people who are blind.21 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Okay. Eugene, you 22 have a further comment?23 MR. SEAGRIFF: Susan, if it's for 24 internally created documents at the FCC, isn't it 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 112 simpler if they make the requirement that the original 1 native format is something other than PDF?2 MS. PALMER-MAZRUI: Yes. But what if I 3 need to access documents that were filed five years 4 ago, archival documents? The process now would 5 probably be to go to the transcriber, and they have 6 one of the best transcribers in the world, but that's 7 not the most efficient use of his time.8 MR. SEAGRIFF: Right.9 MS. PALMER-MAZRUI: And so -- or it might 10 be to go through it by hand. That's not efficient. 11 So there are cases where you may need to look at the 12 last ten years of proceedings. Let's do it 13 effectively.14 MR. SEAGRIFF: Then may I suggest then 15 perhaps there's two parts to this? One is this which 16 deal with archival, and one is a policy that prevents 17 the additional creation of inaccessible documents 18 going forward?19 MS. PALMER-MAZRUI: Yes. That sounds 20 good.21 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Okay. Are we saying 22 that we're going to amend that with Eugene's 23 suggestion, that it be a two-part recommendation?24 MS. PALMER-MAZRUI: Yes.25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 113 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: That the research and 1 adopt automated tools that convert PDF and other 2 electronic files into accessible format and to 3 prohibit the use of files that are not accessible --4 no, to not use PDF files? Is that what you're saying, 5 Eugene? I'm a little confused here, I'm sorry.6 MR. SEAGRIFF: I think, Shirley, the 7 second part would be to follow the voluntary 8 guidelines for submissions in creation of internal 9 documents, right? If we're going to create guidelines 10 --11 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Okay. That makes 12 sense.13 MR. SEAGRIFF: -- the original guidelines 14 for how to submit comments and things of that nature, 15 just apply those same guidelines in the creation of 16 documents throughout the normal course of business at 17 the FCC itself.18 MS. PALMER-MAZRUI: Yes.19 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Okay.20 MS. PALMER-MAZRUI: And that will 21 reinforce the quality controls of methods and 22 procedures -- policies, methods and procedures.23 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: So what we're saying 24 here is the first part of it and then to additionally 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 114 say to follow the guidelines, the voluntary guidelines 1 in terms of creating internal documents that are --2 MS. PALMER-MAZRUI: Accessible, yes.3 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: And?4 MS. PALMER-MAZRUI: For creating 5 accessible documents.6 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Okay. We got that, 7 Scott?8 MR. MARSHALL: Yes.9 PARTICIPANT: Hi. Anne Boveck from the 10 NAB. The only caution that I throw to this issue is 11 that PDF is used by a lot of companies, in fact a lot 12 of federal agencies precisely for the point of not 13 having their documents manipulated in Word format. 14 And while go forward in making them accessible to the 15 visually impaired, we ought to think in terms of the 16 sensitivity of why people put the barriers up in terms 17 of security.18 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Okay.19 PARTICIPANT: To make sure that that's 20 something that's not -- so you're not having -- it's 21 not backed into a Word or Word-like document where it 22 can freely ripped. And there are proprietary reasons 23 for that.24 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Right. And, David, 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 115 do you have a comment on that?1 MR. POEHLMAN: Yes. The securities issues 2 are well known, and the solution to those security 3 issues are to provide an accessible document and state 4 inside the document that the original version is 5 maintained in a PDF document which is also there, 6 available for people to download and to use in the way 7 that it was intended to be used, and this version is 8 provided purely for informational purposes. And that 9 way -- I mean that's the best we can do right now.10 There are neutrals out there, though, that 11 if the businesses want to do it, they can produce a 12 screen reader PDF document -- a screen reader usable 13 PDF document that is usable by maybe 15 percent of 14 screen reader users -- and I won't go into why because 15 it would take too long -- that they can use. But for 16 the purposes of most of the stuff that the FCC makes 17 available to the public, it appears that security for 18 the information doesn't seem to apply. If in fact it 19 does, then that's something that needs to be looked 20 into and dealt with.21 MS. PALMER-MAZRUI: Yes. I think the 22 other piece is -- I mean let's be real. If you want 23 to take a document and fake it, there's plenty of 24 graphic programs out there where you can scan a 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 116 document, change the words and put it back out. So if 1 that's your sole concern, I think David's approach 2 addresses it, and I also think that there are other 3 things in place that add some protections. If it does 4 come up, then I think -- where there is a breach of 5 security or concerns, I think that that's another 6 thing that the FCC should look at at that point.7 The concern about security has been raised 8 in the past. Most of the time when you get to the 9 level where you're dealing with -- we did this ADIS, 10 the fact of the matter is a cautionary statement is 11 more than enough. It hasn't been a problem.12 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Okay. Let's boil 13 this down to are we putting this as the first 14 statement, as we said it, "to research and adopt 15 automated tools that convert PDF and other electronic 16 files into accessible format." And then the addition 17 of Eugene's comment, which we have done here, which I 18 can't remember, which had to do with the guidelines 19 for -- right, the voluntary guidelines. Are we 20 stopping that there? Is that my understanding? Is 21 that acceptable to the group? Do have dissent on it? 22 No? Pardon?23 MR. SEAGRIFF: Can we hear the whole 24 statement?25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 117 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: I knew you were going 1 to say that. All right. You do the second part, I'll 2 do the first part. The first part is, "Research and 3 adopt automated tools to convert PDF and other 4 electronic files into accessible format." And, Scott?5 MR. MARSHALL: And the second part would 6 be, "and utilize the voluntary guidelines to ensure 7 that documents are available in accessible formats."8 MS. PALMER-MAZRUI: I think, "are created 9 by the FCC in accessible formats."10 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: "Are created by," 11 okay. Good amendment. Do we have it now? All right. 12 Do we have --13 MR. SEAGRIFF: What we can do is take this 14 back to the group after we've --15 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Yes. We can put it 16 together and email it to everybody to make sure it's 17 your intent. We're not trying to put words in your 18 mouth, right. All right. So we have no dissent on 19 that?20 Okay. The next item is, "streaming video 21 of various events, live and archived, to the 22 Commission's web site and add captions to those clips 23 as needed." Joe, you have a comment?24 MR. GORDON: Thank you, Shirley. Maybe 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 118 it's only me but whenever I see the word, "captions," 1 involved in discussion of accessibility to people with 2 disabilities, I always want to be specific and either 3 say open or closed. Even though I see various events 4 live or archived and I plug in my netgroup, the audio 5 is not that good for me all the time. So, "as 6 needed," I always need it. Is that going to open or 7 closed? I need it, so I want to turn it on. So can 8 we be specific and say closed if that is what Claude 9 had in mind?10 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: And add, "captions, 11 period?"12 MR. GORDON: And add, "closed captions to 13 these clips."14 MR. POEHLMAN: Let's take a look at what 15 it says, because it says -- the first word is, "add," 16 "Add streaming video," okay?17 MR. GORDON: The second sentence.18 MR. POEHLMAN: Oh, the second sentence, 19 okay. Oh, "and add captions to those clips as 20 needed."21 MR. GORDON: What does Claude have in mind 22 is my question?23 MR. POEHLMAN: Okay. Some of them aren't 24 needed. I mean, for example, if it's a video of 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 119 action with no words, why would you need captions, 1 okay? So we wanted to say, "as needed," because it 2 may not be needed. Open caption is the only way you 3 can do video on the web. You can't do close caption 4 on the web, so we didn't put open of close caption.5 PARTICIPANT: David, you can do closed.6 MR. POEHLMAN: On the web?7 PARTICIPANT: Yes.8 PARTICIPANT: Add --9 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Okay.10 PARTICIPANT: "Add open captions for 11 anything that requires it." So anytime there's 12 something being spoken or if there is noise --13 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Well, you're not 14 going to put captions on something that doesn't have 15 any verbal anyway, are you?16 MS. LIPTROT-BANNIER: Right.17 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: I mean I think that's 18 a moot point.19 PARTICIPANT: Right. But if there's 20 sound, if there's sound that is important, then they 21 would.22 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Well, that's sound. 23 I mean if there's any sound.24 PARTICIPANT: If there's any sound, it 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 120 would be in parentheses.1 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: So you only have 2 captioning, closed captioning for --3 PARTICIPANT: It would open captioned.4 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: I think that's 5 understood.6 PARTICIPANT: You would have an open 7 caption for anything audio.8 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Okay. I have no 9 problem with doing that.10 MR. GOLDBERG: As to the question of open 11 or closed captions, the technology definitely exists 12 for closed captioning by user choice. The FCC 13 presently captions all their material with open 14 captions and it works fine. I don't know that you 15 want to recommend either one for now and just say, 16 "caption." Until the FCC is ready to move to a whole 17 new technology which involves some W3C standards, they 18 should just stick with the word, "captions," as you 19 wrote it originally anyway.20 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Okay. So what I'm --21 MR. GORDON: Let me ask Larry a question.22 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Joe?23 MR. GORDON: Larry, you just want to have 24 the word, "captions." Do you still want the words, 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 121 "as needed," there?1 MR. GOLDBERG: Well, the "as needed" 2 discussion was if it's a silent video --3 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: You don't need it.4 MR. GOLDBERG: -- you don't need captions. 5 Otherwise you would. I think "as needed" is fine.6 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Yes. Eugene?7 MR. SEAGRIFF: I think it would also not 8 be needed in a proceeding like this where the captions 9 already are overlaid. So if they stream this on the 10 web site, they wouldn't have to add captions because 11 they're already there.12 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Well, then they 13 wouldn't be needed. Right.14 MR. SEAGRIFF: They don't have to be added 15 to this because they already exist.16 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Can we accept it as 17 it's written, because I think from everything that 18 you've said that we basically have a consensus that 19 it's written okay.20 MR. GORDON: But do you see my concern?21 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: I see your concern, 22 but I also understand what Larry is saying.23 MR. GORDON: Okay.24 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Do we accept it? 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 122 Okay.1 All right. "Develop an action plan that 2 will make the FCC web site more usable for people over 3 50 and for those for whom English is a second 4 language." What's with this, "over 50?"5 (Laughter.)6 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Should I be insulted? 7 What?8 PARTICIPANT: You're not over 50.9 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Oh, no. I wouldn't 10 admit if I were.11 MS. PALMER-MAZRUI: The background on that 12 has nothing to do with Shirley who's only 29. It 13 really has to do with the way you take in information 14 as you age. Complexity of information, you can't sort 15 it out the same way. So what's perfectly acceptable 16 for a teenager, and we've all probably faced this, may 17 be a poor design for most of us. And so we really 18 need to look at the issues of aging and you need to 19 look at language and how much information you can have 20 on the screen and how that really impacts your 21 usability. And I know that AARP, for example, has 22 done some research in that area. I think we need to 23 make sure that everyone's being included.24 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Okay. Thank you, 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 123 Susan. I appreciate your comments on that. We're 1 running out of time, and our next speaker is here. If 2 it's acceptable with this Working Group, I'd like for 3 us to maybe finish this at the next meeting or else we 4 can disseminate -- no, you don't want to do that. All 5 right. Then let's move very fast. If we can get 6 through the rest of it, then we can submit 7 recommendations to the Commissions, okay? If we have 8 the leave of Jeff Carlisle, I apologize. Where is he? 9 Do we have -- can you give us a couple minutes? 10 Thank you, Jeff. We're having a heated discussion 11 here. Okay.12 So we will accept that -- Mike's just made 13 an excellent suggestion. Why we don't look at the 14 rest of this, give me exceptions to it, we'll make the 15 changes if necessary and so we can move forward, 16 because we're running out of time.17 So what about the site for cultural 18 sensitivity? Are we good there? Okay. We accept it. 19 If you haven't said -- if you don't shoot out of your 20 seat and tell me, that means that you accept it.21 The next to the last paragraph about the 22 list of best practices? I think that's a pretty given 23 statement. Do we accept that? Okay.24 And the training for FCC personnel, are we 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 124 implying that they're not trained?1 MS. PALMER-MAZRUI: We're supporting the 2 Commissioner's effort, Powell's effort to work on the 3 FCC University, that's all.4 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Okay. So does anyone 5 have any problems with the last paragraph? All right. 6 Well, then I think we have a -- now, let's look at the 7 whole document.8 MR. SEAGRIFF: There's another page.9 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Oh. God, I didn't 10 fast enough. Okay. Make the public aware of the work 11 the FCC has done, et cetera. Do we have any comments 12 with that? This has to do with the education and 13 outreach. We all right with that?14 And the last one, extend the parent's 15 place. Any questions or comments? All right.16 Can we look at the whole list of 17 recommendations? Do we have -- I think we'll show a 18 hand vote. All those who accept the recommendations, 19 please put up your hand. Any dissenting? Then we can 20 say that we have a unanimous acceptance of the 21 recommendations. Thank you all so much for putting so 22 much work in this. Absolutely.23 MS. PALMER-MAZRUI: And we'll look forward 24 to a report back next meeting?25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 125 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: I'm sorry, Susan.1 MS. PALMER-MAZRUI: And we'll look forward 2 to the report back next meeting saying how these are 3 going to be addressed.4 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Yes. That was part 5 of this thing that you had asked us for the agenda 6 items. I don't know if it's practical to think that 7 that would be done. Do you think it will be, Scott? 8 Can we put that to see how progress is made and see 9 whether it's appropriate at that point? You will have 10 a report back.11 MR. MARSHALL: I don't know about next 12 meeting but I'm sure we're going to be able to report 13 back.14 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Certainly by the 15 second meeting if we can't get it done by the June or 16 July meeting. But we'll do that. Is that okay?17 MS. PALMER-MAZRUI: Well, they should be 18 aware of many of these things, because we raised them 19 in prior meetings.20 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Sure.21 MS. PALMER-MAZRUI: But if we could at 22 least get an update, that would be very helpful.23 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Okay. We can promise 24 you that we will have something for you on this when 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 126 we come to our next meeting. How's that? Okay. 1 Thank you so much again. I really appreciate the work 2 that you've put into this.3 We are very pleased to have with us 4 Jeffrey Carlisle, who is the Senior Deputy Bureau 5 Chief for the Wireline Competition Bureau, and he's 6 also the Co-Director of Chairman Powell's Internet 7 Policy Working Group. And he's going to talk about 8 VoIP. Jeffrey? And he's been with us before. Thank 9 you. Let's welcome him.10 (Applause.)11 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: And thank you so much 12 for being understanding of our time constraints.13 MR. CARLISLE: Oh, not at all. It's 14 perfectly understandable. You've got a tremendous 15 amount of material to cover, so thank you for making a 16 little time for me.17 I'm going to load up my slides. While 18 we're doing that I wanted to say that one of the 19 questions that I'm getting an awful lot when I talk 20 about VoIP is, "Well, is this really a big deal? 21 Isn't this a lot of hype? Haven't we seen this all 22 before with the Internet bubble? Isn't this going to 23 be just another situation where there's going to be a 24 lot of consumer expectation built up and then there's 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 127 never any delivery on it?"1 I think if you had said that about VoIP in 2 1999 or 2000, and people were saying a lot about VoIP 3 back then, I think you would be right. I don't think 4 it was a mature technology at that point. I think it 5 was still coming into an area, an environment where 6 the quality of service was sufficient to really 7 provide a serious alternative on voice service.8 But I don't think you can really say that 9 today. I mean if we're talking about the cool new 10 services that VoIP can bring, you only have to look at 11 what's going on right now. All of the phones in the 12 Commerce Department building across the Mall, which 13 was the biggest office building in the world before 14 the Pentagon was built, all of those phones are IP 15 phones now. They did this last year.16 Right now major corporations around the 17 world are looking very hard at their virtual private 18 network agreements that they've had for years with the 19 large long distance and international carriers and 20 saying, "Why do I need this if I can just go to Nortel 21 or I can go to SISCO and my IT guys that I already pay 22 to do the data network can buy equipment, hook it up 23 to the Internet, and then I've got a 140-country voice 24 network of my own, and I don't have to pay anyone else 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 128 anything for it?"1 We've got a situation now where I can go 2 to my computer and download software that enables me 3 to place voice calls, either to other people on the 4 network or in some cases to the public switch network, 5 and these providers can be located in the United 6 States or the can be located in Milan and Ukraine or 7 Scandinavia or Hong Kong or Singapore.8 Verizon Wireless' pushed talk 9 functionality, as I understand it, is provided using a 10 VoIP platform, okay? And the videophone that we've 11 all wanted for so many years since we first saw it at 12 the New York World's Fair is a reality now. I can go 13 to 8x8's web site and buy a $600 phone, hook it up to 14 my broadband connection and I can show my mother-in-15 law or my mother pictures of their two-year-old 16 granddaughter. Now, who's going to do this for $600 a 17 pop? I could do it, but I haven't done it yet.18 But Sisco's announced plans to have a sub-19 $200 videophone that has the same functionality in it, 20 and 8x8 is going to follow later on this year. And 21 that functionality is going to be built into home 22 entertainment systems. One of my deputies went to the 23 Consumer Electronics Show in Las Vegas last year and 24 was amazed to find out that every major piece of 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 129 equipment that's going to be marketed to people in the 1 next few years in Circuit City and Best Buy and these 2 major chains has a hook-up for an ethernet connection. 3 Now, what you're going to do with that ethernet 4 connection nobody's really quite sure yet, but there's 5 clearly a concept that whatever functionality you're 6 buying within a piece of hardware is going to be 7 massively added on to by an ability to hook up to the 8 Internet.9 So I think the concept of VoIP being sort 10 of overhyped I think we're really on the other side of 11 the hype curve. It sort of goes down, but then it 12 starts to come back up, and it starts to be reality. 13 And so I think what we're trying to do here at the FCC 14 is really take a realistic look at it at this point 15 and try to figure out, okay, we know that this will 16 offer consumers innovation, potentially significant 17 price reductions in what they can do and not only 18 because of the access charge issue, because you're 19 using more efficient networks.20 So what is the FCC's role in that case? 21 What is in it for the consumer for us to apply the 22 same common carrier obligations that have applied for 23 the last 100 years to telephone companies in this sort 24 of environment? If there is something in it for the 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 130 consumer, then maybe it's worth doing in the public 1 interest. If there's not, we need to take a look at 2 it. One of the problems of regulation here and also 3 at the states is is that you get into this dynamic 4 where you've got second order regulations and 5 doctrines and concepts that have gotten so far removed 6 from the idea of what's best for the consumer that we 7 apply these doctrines and concepts almost reflexively 8 without any thought as to whether or not they're 9 really serving our baseline goal.10 So I think what we've recently released is 11 remarkable in that it tees up these questions. It 12 asks the question, do we continue to be relevant? 13 Assuming that we are, at least to some extent, where 14 are we relevant and what sort of doctrine should we be 15 applying, and should we change those doctrines if they 16 really don't make sense in the new environment"17 So what I'll od is very quickly go through 18 some of these slides that I've brought with me, and 19 then I would love to entertain any questions you might 20 have.21 Just to give you a sense of how we're 22 approaching the concept of our jurisdiction and how 23 that plays out within the act, a lot's written in the 24 popular press about -- well, at least in the trade 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 131 press, but at any rate, about the distinctions between 1 telecommunication services and information services. 2 It's worthwhile going over that very quickly at a high 3 level so you can understand the mind-set that we're 4 bringing to this at this point.5 The FCC has very broad jurisdiction -- any 6 interstate and foreign communication by wire and 7 radio. That's pretty much anything. But the extent 8 of the regulation we can apply depends on how you 9 classify the service. If it's a telecommunication 10 service, which is essentially point-to-point 11 communication offered without change in form, it's 12 transmission of information of the user's choosing and 13 offered to the public for a fee, then that's subject 14 to the full range of common carrier regulation under 15 Title 2. So that's potentially tariffing, that's 16 entry and exit regulations, regulatory accounting, all 17 the way down the line.18 If it's information services, though, if 19 it's a capability to process data or access or 20 generate data that's provided over telecommunications, 21 then it's an information service, which is largely 22 unregulated by the Commission. It's subject only to 23 our general jurisdiction.24 But it's useful also to note that even in 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 132 situations where we have found something to be a 1 telecommunication service, historically we have 2 foreborn from regulating it. This was the case with 3 CMRS, Commercial Mobile Radio Service, or cellular 4 telephones. Those were found to be a 5 telecommunication service, or rather a common carrier 6 service at the time, but the Commission affirmatively 7 -- took the step of forebearing from regulating them 8 under Title 2. We regulated them under Title 3, 9 having to do with acquisition and use of spectrum, but 10 we did not regulate them as common carriers.11 Also, I'd point out that our 30-year 12 policy of distinguishing between computers and 13 telecommunications, which was initiated in the 14 Computer One proceeding in the early 1970s and 15 followed through in Computer 2 and Computer 3, this 16 formed the based of the distinction between 17 information services and telecommunication services. 18 The Commission took a look at all of these new 19 applications that could potentially be made available 20 over the telecommunications network and said, "Look, 21 we probably have jurisdiction to regulate this, but 22 we're not going to." So the Commission has a long 23 history of affirmatively forebearing from regulation 24 when it's not in the public interest to do so if 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 133 you're talking about a new set of services.1 The only thing that we've said before 2 these recent orders on Voice over the Internet was the 3 Steven's report in 1998, named after Senator Stevens 4 because he had asked us to provide a report to him as 5 to what the impact of the Internet and Voice over the 6 Internet was on universal service contributions. In 7 that report, we established a paradigm where we made a 8 distinction between computer-to-computer 9 communications where we said that looks like programs 10 downloaded onto people's computers. It's not anything 11 that we've really ever thought about regulating. 12 These look like other types of computer applications. 13 This is probably an unregulated information service.14 But if it's phone-to-phone and it bears 15 certain characteristics, it may be a telecommunication 16 service, and we set out these four characteristics: 17 The provider has to hold itself out as providing 18 telephone service, the consumer premises equipment is 19 the same as consumer premises equipment you'd use to 20 access the public switch network, customers can dial 21 numbers assigned under the North American Numbering 22 Plan, so the ten-digit numbers that you use to dial 23 anyone else, and the service transmits customer 24 information without change in former content.25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 134 But, notably, the Commission made no final 1 decision in the Steven's report. It said, "We're 2 going to have to decide this on a case-by-case basis 3 when we start getting factual records in."4 I'll speak specifically about the 5 pulver.com order and the NPRM in a second, but I 6 thought it would be useful for context to let yo know 7 what the other petitions we have in front of us are. 8 There are three petitions that are pending before us 9 in the pricing division relating to how access charges 10 apply to Voice over the Internet services. It's 11 useful to think of these three petitions as sort of 12 being different facets of the same problem. AT&T's 13 petition posits a service where you originate a 14 telephone call using a regular phone, it's carried 15 over the Internet by AT&T, and then it is terminated 16 to a regular phone. So the only IP in the call is the 17 IP that is between the originating side and the 18 terminating side on the public switch network. And 19 AT&T has asked us to declared that access charges do 20 not apply to this service.21 Level three is the other side of this. 22 They said, "Okay, fine. Whatever you decide on AT&T 23 take a look at the situation where you originate a 24 call on the Internet and you terminate it to the 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 135 public switch network." This is a different 1 situation, may call for a different result.2 And most recently we received a petition 3 from a company called Inflexion which is the other 4 side of the level three petition. The level three 5 petition said, "Look, decide the access charge issue, 6 but don't decide it for underserved areas; that is, we 7 don't want to get into that. We really only want to 8 talk about the urban and suburban markets where we 9 expect the majority of our service to be used." 10 Essentially, in order to avoid getting involved in the 11 questions of support for rural ILECs." Inflexion's 12 come in and asked us to address that question and 13 picked up the strand that was left open by level 14 three.15 Additionally, we have two clarification-16 related petitions -- classification-related petitions, 17 which go not just to access charges but to the 18 classification of the service itself. The Vonage 19 petition was filed with us after Vonage received a 20 decision from the Minnesota Public Service Commission 21 that its service was a telephone exchange service that 22 should be regulated under state law. They filed their 23 petition with us to preempt the Minnesota commission. 24 While that petition's been pending, a Minnesota 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 136 district court reversed the decision of the Minnesota 1 Public Service Commission. So the docket is still 2 pending before us. There is a question as to whether 3 or not there is anything for us to resolve in it, but 4 the docket is still open.5 And more recently, SBC has filed a broad 6 petition asking that any sort of IP network services 7 of applications using the services are first 8 jurisdictionally interstate and not subject to state 9 jurisdiction and also they are exempt from regulation 10 under Title 2. Now, if we believe they are subject to 11 Title 2, they ask for forbearance from regulation 12 under Title 2.13 So what's the context in which we're going 14 to be deciding these petitions? Well, I think there's 15 our 30-year-old precedent on Computer 1, 2 and 3. 16 There's the Steven's report that will inform our 17 decisions. And then there are our two most recent 18 releases from the Commission, the pulver.com 19 declaratory ruling and the IP-enabled services, NPRM. 20 And I can discuss these in a lot of detail if you're 21 interested. I'll just give you the very most general 22 points right now.23 The pulver.com declaratory ruling was 24 issued in response to a petition to us from 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 137 pulver.com, which was asking us to declare that its 1 free-world dial-up service was neither a 2 telecommunication service nor even telecommunications. 3 And they based this on the idea that, "Look, all 4 we're doing is hooking up a server to the Internet. 5 All that server does is say here's the IP address of 6 somebody who is a member of our service. Here's 7 another IP address of somebody else who's a member of 8 our service." All they do is then tell the Internet 9 to establish a peer-to-peer connection between those 10 two IP addresses and then they drop put of the call. 11 They also provide certain other essentially 12 information services in terms of address look-up and 13 so on. And on that basis they were saying, "Look, we 14 provide no transmission. And, moreover, our service 15 is completely free, so you should declare that we're 16 neither telecom nor telecom service."17 The Commission agree with the petition and 18 granted it based on the fact that they do provide no 19 transmission, and even if they did provide 20 transmission it is a free service. So it's neither 21 telecom nor telecom service. We did, however, take 22 the step of saying that we do believe they are an 23 information service stepping through an analysis of 24 all the functions they provide.25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 138 The second part of the order then declares 1 the free-world dial-up is subject to federal 2 jurisdiction essentially based on the concept that if 3 it is an information service, Congress has clearly set 4 forth a policy of wanting to leave the Internet and 5 applications over the Internet unfettered by 6 unnecessary state or federal jurisdiction. So to the 7 extent we have declared it an information service, 8 we've stated that state rulings to the contrary to 9 treat it like a regulated telecommunication service 10 would most likely be preempted.11 And most recently, we've released our NPRM 12 on IP-enabled services. And, as I said earlier, it is 13 a pretty remarkable document. I think if you read the 14 introductory section of it, you really will see the 15 FCC asking whether the economic regulation -- and when 16 I say economic regulation I mean the sort of Title 2, 17 100-year-old railroad type of regulation -- is really 18 applicable to this type of service, and, if so, to 19 what extent?20 It then splits out other types of 21 regulations, such as USF and access charges, which are 22 important to our national policy of ensuring that all 23 Americans have access to reasonably affordable 24 telecommunications services. It splits out 911 which 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 139 is important to ensure that people have access to 1 emergency services.2 It may be difficult to think of how you 3 would apply 911 when you're using an XBox play a game 4 with somebody else and there's a voice function in 5 that game, but on the other hand if you have something 6 that looks like a phone and acts like a phone in the 7 house and somebody doesn't know that it's an IP phone, 8 it doesn't really matter what sort of disclaimers you 9 place on it, having some sort of emergency access over 10 that phone is an important public policy. So we ask 11 questions about how we should make those distinctions.12 And we explicitly leave for a specific 13 proceeding on CALEA whether CALEA will apply to these 14 services. After we released the NPRM, we received the 15 petition from the Justice Department, and we're moving 16 forward to consider comments on that petition right 17 now.18 One thing that I think is very notable in 19 the NPRM, and I would commend you to take a look at it 20 if you are interested, is how we categorize these 21 services, how do you draw the line between regulated 22 and unregulated? You can do it like we indicated we 23 should do it in the Steven's report, but you can do it 24 in other ways as well. You can look at functional 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 140 equivalence to regular telephony. You can look at 1 substitutability in an economic sense for a telephone 2 service. You can make your dividing line on 3 interconnection with the public switch network or you 4 can adopt more of a technical OS layer model and say, 5 "Here's the level of regulation that applies to 6 facilities, here' the level of regulation that applies 7 to services, and here's the level of regulation that 8 applies to applications." We're interested in opening 9 up everything for comment and trying to figure out 10 what the best, most coherent intellectual construct is 11 going forward.12 So with that, please feel free to go into 13 any amount of detail that you would like on your 14 questions. I'll open it up for questions so we have 15 the most time as possible for that.16 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: We have this group, 17 questions for Mr. Carlisle? Larry?18 MR. GOLDBERG: If the definition of a 19 telecommunications service is that nothing has changed 20 from one end to the other, how is that Voice over IP 21 falls under that? If it's just a voice, that's 22 exactly the same at either end.23 MR. CARLISLE: Under our current rules, 24 there is a distinction between services that have a 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 141 protocol conversion and no net protocol conversation. 1 That is, if you start out in one protocol and you end 2 up in the same protocol, that's considered a 3 telecommunications service. However, if there's a 4 protocol conversion, you've actually changed the 5 information even if the content on the other end is 6 the same, those are generally treated as enhanced 7 services. Now, we ask questions in the NPRM as to 8 whether protocol conversion continues to be relevant, 9 because frankly it may not be a distinction that we 10 can continue to rely on going forward. But under our 11 current rules, that is the rule right now.12 MR. GOLDBERG: So if it's VoIP to IP on 13 both ends, there is no protocol conversion.14 MR. CARLISLE: That's another issue with 15 it. And I think if you look at -- I mean there are 16 two ways of looking at the service. You can look at 17 it from a phone paradigm and say, "Look, it look likes 18 a phone call." Or you can look at it from an Internet 19 paradigm and say, "Look, all you're doing is 20 exchanging packets that happen to be a voice 21 conversation. Why are you treating those packets as 22 differently from the packets that are a music file you 23 may be exchanging or web browsing or an email? So 24 you're taking this line of packets as opposed to all 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 142 these other lines that may be going over the same 1 piece of fiber or the same piece of copper and you're 2 treating them totally differently. What's the 3 rationale, the justification for that?" So we asked 4 those questions as well.5 MR. GOLDBERG: Maybe all those IP packets 6 should also be treated as telecom services too.7 MR. CARLISLE: We asked those questions as 8 well. I guess the policy question there would be to 9 what end; that is, email and all the other 10 applications that we use over the Internet, such as 11 access to online shopping, eBay, securities trading, 12 et cetera, et cetera. They may be regulated in 13 certain ways, such as consumer protection or they may 14 be -- for example, online gambling or the securities 15 market may be regulated, but the service as a service16 has not been subject to the same sort of regulatory 17 overhang that we've had for telephone services. And 18 that seems to have actually worked out pretty well in 19 terms of having 200 million online subscriptions 20 within the United States, incredibly high take rate on 21 these services. And while there may be issues of 22 consumer protection, many of them seem to be able to 23 be handled by the general, sort of, state and federal 24 mechanisms for consumer protection. There may be 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 143 issues that you have to change the application 1 sometimes, you have to change the context in which you 2 apply it, but I'd like to see the case made that we 3 need to start regulating email as a regulated Title 2 4 common carrier service.5 MR. GOLDBERG: I don't think it applies on 6 disability access, though. I don't think those have 7 been -- those problems haven't been conquered in that 8 other sector.9 MR. CARLISLE: And the IP-enabled services 10 NPRM asked questions directly about disabilities 11 access. So that's one of the sort of core social 12 issues along with universal service, 911 and COLEA 13 that we very much want to see. I think there's a 14 distinction between regulation that you apply to 15 somebody who is an overwhelming dominant monopoly 16 provider and regulation you may apply to anybody who's 17 providing a particular service, whether they're 18 dominant or non-dominant, and I think disabilities 19 access falls into the latter case.20 MR. SNOOP: Jeff, one of the things that I 21 would like to commend your group, and the FCC as a 22 whole, and I wish you a lot of luck because what 23 you're entering into, this world that you're going 24 into with VoIP, the Internet, is it a medium we should 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 144 regulate and various other things, what does it look 1 like today, what's it going to look like tomorrow, 2 it's changing so rapidly that I'm not sure that any 3 type of regulation is really going to stick. With the 4 NPRM, if it's done properly, it's going to have to be 5 something that can be updated on an ongoing basis as 6 needed in order to be effective. You guys really have 7 your hands full on this one.8 MR. CARLISLE: Well, thank you. It's one 9 of those sort of -- you get through a whole bunch of 10 other regulation on implementing Section 251 of the 11 Act and then your prize at the end of this -- well, 12 actually, we're not at the end of it because of the 13 D.C. Circuit decision, but your prize once you start 14 getting that regime together is to do something even 15 harder, which is this.16 I think one of the things that we're very 17 cognizant of is that regulation that we write today 18 has a time limit on it, an expiration date, if you 19 will. It's not going to last for 100 -- you know, the 20 statute, in certain ways, has been able to last 100 21 years because the network that it applied to lasted 22 essentially for about 100 years. But our regulations, 23 if they're applying to specific types of technology, 24 may only be relevant, may only have a shelf life of 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 145 about five or six years. And I think that's if we get 1 to the point where we have a coherent set of rules 2 that gives everybody the clarity they need to go ahead 3 and provide services, be protected when people are 4 providing those services to them and provides the 5 investment community an ability to know what their 6 regulatory risk is when they put money into the 7 industry and that lasts for about five or six years 8 before we have to change it again, I think we will be 9 well ahead of a lot of other areas.10 The other thing that we have to be worried 11 about on a change is internationalization of the voice 12 service. We can apply -- and I'll tell you right now, 13 I mean we can take any regulation we want, I'll take a 14 ridiculous example. We could tell every common 15 carrier in America to give out free toasters to their 16 end users, okay? Toasters are important to people. 17 If you have a common carriers you have to provide 18 them. Okay, we could do that, and assuming we were 19 upheld by the courts, it might actually stick, but the 20 problem is is that I don't have to download the VoIP 21 software from somebody in the United States. I can 22 download it from somebody in Singapore who doesn't 23 have to hand out a free toaster to me if I don't want 24 to have to pay for the cost of subsidizing that 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 146 toaster.1 So it doesn't make regulation a futile 2 exercise. Clearly, there have to be some sort of 3 minimum standards that we apply because we think there 4 are important social policies behind them. But how do 5 you reach a level of regulation that, first of all, is 6 going to keep those companies in the United States, 7 provide people who want to reach consumers in the 8 United States an incentive to do business in the --9 you know, it's not going to give them a disincentive 10 to doing business in the United States and achieves 11 the goals you're trying to reach. And that's a big 12 trick. It's going to be interesting to see how we 13 pull this one off.14 MR. JAMES: Jeff, I've got a question.15 MR. CARLISLE: Sure.16 MR. JAMES: My name is Vernon James, and 17 I'm with the San Carlos Apache Telecommunications 18 Utility, Incorporated. It's nice to be a service 19 provider, and we are a service provider as well as one 20 of the many service providers in this country. The 21 question I have is if there's a service provider on 22 the west coast that wants to provide a service by 23 transporting this data packet across the country to 24 the east coast, say, in Washington, D.C., that data 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 147 packet still travels over an infrastructure that was 1 put in place by various numbers of business-providing 2 services.3 There is continued cost to provide that 4 infrastructure -- operational, maintenance costs --5 and yet that data packet travels over this 6 infrastructure but doesn't contribute to that 7 operational and maintenance costs of that 8 infrastructure. I just don't think that's fair 9 because in the long end of it it's the consumer who 10 pays the price in some for or fashion.11 MR. CARLISLE: Well, I guess --12 MR. JAMES: How do we deal with that?13 MR. CARLISLE: I guess the question is --14 I mean this is not a new question. I mean if we're 15 going to raise the question as to whether -- how you 16 support the infrastructure -- email, anybody who hooks 17 a server up to the Internet, eBay, Amazon -- these 18 guys don't pay a dime towards support of the 19 infrastructure except to the extent they may as 20 telecommunications users pay universal service.21 So it's a much larger question than VoIP 22 what you're asking. What you're asking is is that how23 do we ensure down the road that you've got a robust 24 telecommunications infrastructure that still provides 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 148 affordable service to end users? You can do that 1 through charging people who access it to provide 2 services. You can do that sort of applying the access 3 charge concept, as successful as that's been, to the 4 Internet, so anybody who hooks up to it to provide a 5 service to end users has to pay some amount. How you 6 enforce that, how you structure that is another 7 question. I think the other way to do it is to look 8 to end user charges and subsidies at that point. So 9 there are a lot of different ways of structuring it 10 but you're asking a question that goes way beyond 11 VoIP.12 MR. JAMES: The consumers that we provide 13 a service to is out in rural America where the income 14 level is less than 50 percent are working. And so it 15 doesn't seem to be fair.16 MR. CARLISLE: Yes.17 MR. JAMES: And yet there's no regulations 18 that provide or lend itself to the support of that 19 infrastructure to provide that low-income customer 20 service.21 MR. CARLISLE: Well, I think you know at 22 some point you have to start thinking about how does 23 this play out on sort of a big think macroeconomic 24 level, and I'm not an economist, I just play one in 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 149 the Bureau. But I think the issue on that is do you 1 want a subsidized network that provides an acceptable 2 level of quality of service to people which may be 3 where you want to go. You may want to have some sort 4 of explicit subsidy mechanism, and I'll be interested 5 to see what Congress does with the Telecommunications 6 Act. Or do you want to let the market continue to try 7 to develop technological solutions to this?8 For example, if you have that subsidized 9 network, you may make it harder for the next person 10 who wants to come in to do, say, a wireless 11 application within that community who might have been 12 able to provide the service for cheaper than you can 13 over a wireline infrastructure. Well, you just made 14 it harder for them to do it because now the end users 15 are paying a subsidized rate for the service. So at 16 some point these decisions are going to have to be 17 made in Congress as to what they think is -- how they 18 achieve that balance of ensuring you've got innovation 19 and people interested in bringing service out to these 20 areas with new technological concepts as opposed to 21 making sure people actually get the service in the 22 first place.23 Sometimes it's almost a chicken and the 24 egg problem. But I hear you on it, and it's an 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 150 intractable problem that we've been trying to deal 1 with for a number of years. So far we've largely 2 relied on market mechanisms to try to push the 3 infrastructure out there, and Congress has clearly 4 stated an intention of taking a look at all that over 5 the next few years.6 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: We have time for one 7 more question if we have another question. I have a 8 question. Can you substitute a microwave for the 9 toaster?10 (Laughter.)11 MR. CARLISLE: Well, you see, that's 12 exactly the kind of thing the D.C. Circuit would 13 overrule us on.14 (Laughter.)15 MR. CARLISLE: But, yes.16 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Why not, right?17 MR. CARLISLE: Knock yourselves out. Or a 18 convection oven.19 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: All right.20 PARTICIPANT: Jeff, you did a great job of 21 making a complex thing very understandable. Thank 22 you.23 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Yes. That's great.24 MR. CARLISLE: You're welcome.25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 151 (Applause.)1 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Thanks so much.2 MR. CARLISLE: Thank you very much. And 3 did you get copies of the slides, by the way? My 4 contact information is on the front page, and I really 5 do have an open door policy. So if you have any 6 question at all or you think we're doing something 7 totally crazy or have heard something that doesn't 8 compute, just send me an email or call me.9 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Thank you, Jeff. As 10 usual, it's greta to see you.11 MR. CARLISLE: Good to see you.12 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Okay. We're going to 13 take a break. If you'll be back here at 2:45, we'll 14 continue our program.15 Just a couple of reminders, if you want 16 agenda items for the next meeting, you need to get it 17 to us at least six weeks before the meeting, 18 preferably before that, because the agenda tends to 19 fill up. So keep that in mind, folks.20 Be back here at quarter of three, no 21 later.22 (Whereupon, the foregoing matter went off23 the record at 2:26 p.m. and went back on24 the record at 2:49 p.m.)25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 152 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: If I could have your 1 attention, we have an excellent panel for presentation 2 this afternoon. I am very pleased with the people who 3 are joining us. I am going to let Debra introduce 4 them to you.5 You all know Debra, Debra Berlyn. She is 6 on our Consumer Outreach, that long-titled committee. 7 By the number of e-mails I get from Debra, she has 8 done a lot of work.9 So, Debra, we will turn it over to you. 10 Thank you.11 MODERATOR BERLYN: Thank you, Shirley. 12 Let me just start out by thanking Shirley and Scott 13 for giving us the time this afternoon to have this 14 discussion.15 I am chairing another one of those sub 16 working groups, the Consumer Complaints Outreach and 17 Education Working Group. Our subgroup is taking a 18 look at consumer outreach and education issues.19 As part of that, we have been working 20 closely with a division of the Consumer Affairs 21 Bureau, the Outreach Division. And this afternoon's 22 panel is going to tackle an issue that we thought 23 would be a good place for us to start. And that is 24 the relationship between the FCC and the other state 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 153 and local offices that also deal with consumer issues.1 So what we have done is we have put 2 together a panel this afternoon of representatives 3 from each of those levels to talk about partnering, 4 developing better communications or improving 5 communications, coming up with new ideas on how to 6 reach out to consumers, how to resolve complaints, to 7 talk about issues and work responsibilities that 8 overlap, and to talk about how we as the Consumer 9 Advisory Committee can better advise the FCC on that 10 whole partnering process.11 So we have an excellent panel of 12 discussion leaders here. We were going to go from my 13 right, your left. Let me just introduce everyone 14 first. And then I will tell you we are going to start 15 with Louis Sigalos, who is Chief of the Consumer 16 Affairs and Outreach Division. Then we will hear from 17 Betty Noel, who is People's Counsel for the District 18 of Columbia. Chrys Wilson next to her is Manager of 19 External Affairs for the Maryland Public Commission 20 and Jane Lawton, who is Cable Communications 21 Administrator in my county, Montgomery County, 22 Maryland.23 So welcome to all of you. We look forward 24 to your remarks. We will have hopefully plenty of 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 154 time for questions at the end of all of the 1 presentations. So if you could hold your questions 2 until that time?3 Louis?4 MR. SIGALOS: Thank you, Debra.5 As you mentioned, I am Louis Sigalos. I 6 am Chief of the Consumer Affairs and Outreach 7 Division, which is located within the Consumer and 8 Governmental Affairs Bureau. I would like to start by 9 going into some of our bureaucratic talk and 10 specifically to give you a mission statement, to give 11 you a flavor of what it is at our core.12 Our mission is: first, the development 13 and implementation of consumer outreach and education 14 policies, goals, and objectives to ensure that the 15 commission has the benefit of a wide spectrum of 16 information and viewpoints on its decision-making 17 processes.18 Our mission is also to coordinate with all 19 FCC bureaus and offices by establishing liaisons for 20 information-sharing purposes on all consumer outreach 21 projects. And our mission is to develop and maintain 22 special databases for disseminating information and 23 materials to groups affected by commission actions.24 I know that is pretty much of a mouthful. 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 155 And it is a whole lot of mission to accomplish. By 1 no means will I be representing here today that that 2 is something that has been accomplished at this point. 3 I can say that the mission is underway and that we 4 can see the road ahead.5 I want to cover four topics for you today. 6 First is how are we organized; secondly, what we have 7 accomplished thus far. Third is our vision for the 8 future. And four is our thoughts on partnering the 9 state and local governments, organizations, and 10 associations.11 First, how we are organized. Basically 12 our division has organized itself by a stakeholder 13 concept. Basically the stakeholder concept has 14 allowed us to assign individual staff members to work 15 with specific constituencies, on specific initiatives, 16 to assign liaison roles to staff along with 17 partnerships. And, finally, it allows us to dedicate 18 staff to operations and support, which includes 19 supporting the tools of our trade.20 Some of those tools include a contacts 21 database, media services, outreach coordination and 22 program management, the creation of outreach programs 23 and proposals, exhibit booth, budgeting, brochures, 24 and fact sheets, mass mailings and e-mailings, forms 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 156 and summits.1 Okay. What we have accomplished. As part 2 of the goal, some of the things we have done to give 3 you a sense of some of the things we have done, this 4 is basically within the last year and is by no means 5 fully comprehensive.6 For seniors, we have been to AARP. We had 7 an exhibit booth. We had a presentation. We have 8 been to California, worked with their PUC to give a 9 consumer forum to seniors. We have been to the 10 Shepherd Center in Richmond for a senior event. We 11 have done more Walker events. And we have 12 participated in several consumer roundtable in the 13 State of Pennsylvania in conjunction with the 14 Pennsylvania PUC.15 We hosted a black college forum in 16 February. We have gone to School Without Walls, to 17 Benjamin Banneker, to T. C. Williams. We have worked 18 with the Hispanic community. We have been to La Raza, 19 which is their big convention; the disability 20 community.21 We have been to Deaf History Day. We 22 presented at the Registry of Interpreters for the 23 Deaf. We have been to the World Congress and 24 Exposition on Disabilities, the Potomac Chapter also 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 157 of Registry of Interpreters for the Deaf; state and 1 local.2 We have been to National Association of 3 Consumer Agency Administrators, NACAA. We had a booth 4 there. We have done some networking, Consumer 5 Federation of America just this past month or earlier 6 this month, that led us to many potential further 7 follow-up events.8 Our role, we have done a lot of work 9 recently. And it is also a role that is a good 10 example of liaison work that we do in working with 11 other bureaus within the commission. We worked with 12 the International Bureau when they did their World 13 Satellite Forum. We worked with the Wideline 14 Competition Bureau and their telemedicine events. We 15 have been to the world telecom, broadband conference, 16 where we had a booth, multiple events.17 We did a consumer forum in Reno, Nevada. 18 I would also like to point out that this was something 19 where we worked with our intergovernmental affairs 20 group, where they were conducting an Indian 21 telecommunications initiative that we helped support 22 on the coordination logistics. We took that 23 opportunity since we were there to conduct a consumer 24 forum.25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 158 We worked on the public recognition week 1 here in D.C. We had a booth. We have been to the 2 B.Y. Utility Day in Philadelphia. We have done the 3 D.C. Office of People's Counsel. We work with them. 4 We have done Congressional Caucus meetings from the 5 African American to the Hispanic to the federal, 6 Asian, and Pacific Islander.7 Just a few of the initiatives that we 8 supported through program management, logistical 9 support, mass mailings include localism hearings. We 10 have staff that are working on the localism hearings 11 that are being conducted by the chairman and 12 commissioners throughout the United States.13 TCPA, National Do Not Call Registry, the 14 National Consumer Protection Week, Hearing Aid 15 Compatibility Outreach, I can go on and on with the 16 things that we have helped support, throughout the 17 commission the initiatives that we have helped 18 support. The list really is exhaustive.19 I did want to mention one last item that 20 we worked on in conjunction with many other bureaus. 21 That was the local number portability outreach 22 campaign.23 For this outreach, we conducted a 24 satellite media tour. We arranged to have the 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 159 chairman conduct satellite interviews in a local 1 broadcast facility, where we were linked with TV 2 stations throughout the country.3 These interviews were the kickoff of the 4 local number portability campaign, and we were able to 5 reach more than 25 stations. There were 129 confirmed 6 broadcasts and over 11 million viewers.7 I would like to show you what it looked 8 like here on channel 9. Let's go to the videotape.9 (Whereupon, a videotape was played.)10 MR. SIGALOS: Of course, it helps when we 11 do this type of outreach that we have a chairman who 12 is an excellent public speaker and quick on his feet. 13 So we hope to do more of that type of work in the 14 future.15 That leads me to the next topic. And that 16 is, what is our vision for the future? That is, we do 17 want to build on the foundation we are currently 18 creating today.19 Some of the specific areas we want to 20 focus our attention on include -- well, let me just go 21 into what's on tap. Kids' page. There is a kids' 22 page that you will be seeing debut shortly. It is an 23 internet page that is dedicated to kids and what they 24 would find applicable in our world of communications.25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 160 An outreach program that we are putting 1 together in cosponsorship with our internet support 2 personnel will be coming soon. We hope to kick that 3 off with the chairman when he is outside the Beltway.4 We are going to be at the internet service 5 providers' conference shortly here in D.C. We will 6 have representatives at the National Association of 7 Broadcasters. We will assist on an E911 summit.8 We will be there Public Service 9 Recognition Week. We will assist with the 10 Disabilities Access Solution Summit. We will react 11 with the Rehabilitating Engineering Research Center 12 State of Technology Conference in Atlanta in May.13 We will be at the Registry of Interpreters 14 for the Deaf in Puerto Rico in May. We hope to 15 conduct a consumer forum in Rapid City, actually a 16 consumer forum along with our involvement with the 17 Registry of Interpreters for the Deaf. We hope to do 18 localism. We hope to piggyback on the localism 19 hearing in Rapid City and do a consumer forum because 20 we are going to have the chairman and commissioners 21 out there.22 What else do we have? An interagency 23 forum we are looking to conduct in June to work with 24 other federal agencies, specifically the consumer 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 161 groups.1 We are going to be out in California 2 working with them on some senior citizen consumer 3 forums. We will be at the American Library 4 Association Conference with an exhibit book hoping to 5 create networking and opportunities to use their 6 systems to distribute our information. We will be at 7 NACAA, at La Raza. National Association for the Deaf 8 we hope to be at also.9 I could go on and on. I just wanted to 10 give you a flavor there. I just had to do that 11 because we are going to be working real hard.12 What else is in our vision is to increase 13 our staff and our budget. That is critically 14 important. All of these things I mentioned, we have 15 to talk with everybody to do anything we do. We can't 16 staff all of these things ourselves. We do the work 17 better on our coordination within the FCC working with 18 the other bureaus to make sure that when there is an 19 initiative with the commission, that all bureaus are 20 touched, whether it be the International Bureau, the 21 Wireline Bureau, the Wireless Bureau, they all come 22 together so that we could provide one common message 23 to the consumer because they are aware that this rule 24 may be within wireless, this may be within wireline. 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 162 They just need one comprehensive solution to many of 1 their needs. We hope to be better at coordinating 2 throughout the FCC.3 We are going to work harder on our context 4 database and on media services. Specifically we want 5 to try to use more radio and TV to get our message 6 out. Examples will include that satellite media tour.7 We hope to do video news releases, public 8 service announcements. We also hope down the road to 9 write articles or a weekly column for newspapers. It 10 would be great to have a network of local and rural 11 newspapers that look forward to a column from us on a 12 regular basis.13 Finally, we would like to do some 14 strategic partnering. Part of that includes federal, 15 state, and local governments as well as consumer 16 organizations nationwide. That brings us to our final 17 topic and my final topic, which is partnering with 18 state and local government organizations and 19 associations.20 We consider it extremely important that we 21 partner, especially with this group. It is my belief 22 that through these relationships networking and 23 partnerships with state and local governments, 24 organizations, and associations, we will be able to 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 163 achieve our many goals in the most cost and 1 resource-efficient manner.2 We also believe that these partnerships 3 will assist those that work with us in demystifying 4 the FCC. These partnerships will open an avenue of 5 communications for ideas and feedback to filter back 6 regarding the regulations and policies that we pursue.7 What we have done so far, we have built a 8 database. And we are continuing to do so. We know 9 when we pursue targeted outreach through this 10 constituency. However, we have found that we have 11 gotten ahead of ourselves in many cases.12 We are ready to put out a mailing and 13 saying, "We would like to work with all of you." The 14 problem is, what if you say, "Yes"? That is one of 15 our issues.16 We need to be able to be responsive. One 17 thing we don't want to do is say to all of you, "Let's 18 work together. You say, "Yes." And then we say, 19 "Well, we don't have the time, the staff, the money." 20 So we are trying to figure how to basically measure 21 out an approach to working with states and local 22 organizations.23 Finally, I just wanted to mention one 24 thing that we are doing right now. That is working 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 164 with our subcommittee. That would be exploring many 1 other ways that we can work together.2 One thing that we did do and that we will 3 be passing around right now is a premium brochure. 4 This is a draft brochure. Basically we wanted to have 5 some fact sheet or brochure that you could bring back 6 with you that would be a resource so that when you had 7 questions or concerns, you will know exactly where to 8 go within the FCC to get the information you need.9 You have got a hard copy there through the 10 sub working group. If you can provide any feedback, 11 we will gladly make these changes. And when it is 12 completed, we will get it to you either in an 13 electronic or hard copy format.14 I know I have spoken far too long. And I 15 apologize. But thank you for the time.16 MODERATOR BERLYN: Thank you, Louis.17 (Applause.)18 MODERATOR BERLYN: I know that our sub 19 working group has had the opportunity to meet with 20 Louis and get that full feel of the tremendous work 21 that his division is doing. And, as you can tell from 22 the long list of the type of outreach activities that 23 they are doing, Louis has brought a lot of energy to 24 that office. So we are very pleased to work with him 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 165 on this.1 We are trying to meet with his division as 2 often as possible. And I believe a report of our 3 working group, Scott, was either sent electronically 4 or part of the packet. Okay. It was sent 5 electronically to all of you. You might want to check 6 that out.7 But that does summarize the last meeting 8 that we did have with the Outreach Division. So his 9 remarks are an excellent introduction to the rest of 10 our panel, who will be talking about from the state 11 and local perspective what they do and how they can 12 partner.13 Betty?14 MS. NOEL: Thank you.15 Hello. Well, good afternoon. I am 16 Elizabeth Noel, Betty to my friends. And I am the 17 People's Counsel for the District of Columbia. I 18 bring you greetings from the 570,000 consumers that I 19 represent. I represent consumers with respect to 20 natural gas, energy, and most relevantly today 21 telecommunications services.22 Debbie, it is always a privilege to be on 23 any panel that you are a part of. I would also like 24 to extend thank you to Dane Snowden, the Chief of the 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 166 FCC's Consumer and Governmental Bureau; and to you, 1 Shirley. I think the last time I was at the FCC I was 2 on a panel that you chaired. It is always a privilege 3 to be on a panel with you.4 I would like to take this opportunity to 5 applaud FCC Commissioner Copps on his new consumer 6 initiative, the Always On Campaign for Consumers 7 announced on March 11th. I am particularly thrilled 8 about three of his initiatives. One is to protect 9 consumers from false and confusing line items on 10 bills; two, to make phone rates transparent and 11 comparable; and, third, to give wireless consumers the 12 power to comparison shop. I think he articulated five 13 points, but those are the things that bring joy to my 14 heart.15 This is my first formal invitation to 16 appear here at the FCC in quite a while. A lot has 17 happened since last I was here. I can tell you that 18 30 percent of all of the complaints that we receive at 19 the Office of People's Counsel pertain to 20 telecommunications services, 30 percent. I should at 21 least preface by saying half of what I do as People's 22 Counsel is advocacy before the FCC, FERC, and our 23 local commission. I am a lawyer. That is what we do.24 The other half of what I do is education 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 167 and outreach. I take that part of the job 1 extraordinarily seriously. Obviously there are 2 politics involved. You have to be in tune with the 3 people.4 And if you say you represent the people, 5 it is good if the people know who you are. And it is 6 also good if you know the people and know what 7 concerns them. You do that through education and 8 outreach.9 You can't do that from your desk. So that 10 means that all 33 members of my staff are out in the 11 community meeting real people at civic associations, 12 community meetings, senior citizens organizations, and 13 so on and so on.14 So we know the people. I can tell you 15 that when I go to Giant to shop, -- that is our local 16 grocery store -- my consumers who see me on cable 17 television will come over to me and say, "Ms. Noel, I 18 saw you on cable. And I am really concerned about" 19 this or that. "I really don't like" this or this or 20 whatever my issues are.21 So the comments that I make come not 22 really because I am the People's Counsel, not really 23 because I am a lawyer, but I actually have hands on 24 with the people. So accountability has a whole new 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 168 definition for me.1 We have been lucky because here in D.C., 2 we can come over to the FCC and we can reach out and 3 touch. And I think that we have tried to connect with 4 the FCC.5 We are very appreciative to Pat Chu and 6 Dan Remeld in the FCC's Consumer Outreach Division. 7 They have partnered with my office on different local 8 experiences, such as Joint Utility Discount Day or 9 Energy Expo, which, even though we are educating about 10 energy, the FCC is always pleased to have a table and 11 educate about their issues. They have come out with 12 us to senior citizens' organizations or to discuss the 13 Do Not Call Registry, et cetera. So we are 14 appreciative of that.15 We are also appreciative to Martha Conti, 16 the head of the Consumer Inquiries and Complaints 17 Division. She coordinates with our office.18 I will tell you that our jurisdiction is 19 limited to those issues that concern our local market, 20 so the locally derived budget we spend on representing 21 local consumers about things that affect them locally.22 The complaints that we get at OPC in 23 telecom, however, extend quite beyond local. And that 24 is where the need for FCC involvement comes in.25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 169 When a consumer has a problem with a 1 cellular provider or with a long distance company, 2 they call OPC D.C. for assistance. Because I am 3 accountable to these people and if I don't help them, 4 they will stop me at Giant, I can't say to a consumer, 5 "I'm sorry. These are locally derived funds, and I 6 can't talk to you about your cellular bill and I can't 7 talk to you about long distance." I can't do that.8 So it puts us in a quagmire of using local 9 monies to help local consumers on issues over which I 10 don't have jurisdiction but about which they are 11 concerned. That is a problem that we have.12 Even though I think that we have done some 13 things to coordinate with the FCC, it is very clear to 14 me that consumers need more confidence that when they 15 reach into the FCC, they can get more hands-on 16 assistance and consumer complaint resolution in these 17 areas. That is what they are talking about.18 The cellular issue is of concern to them. 19 I don't know about you, and it could be that I am 20 just getting older, but I can't read half the 21 advertisements that they put out.22 Now, I will just tell you that has a 23 particular concern to our consumers. They not only 24 want to be able to read it. They want to understand 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 170 it. We are spending local money explaining to them 1 how to make effective choice in telecommunications.2 Now, I say that on television. I am sure 3 I am going to hear from some council member eventually 4 asking me why I am spending local money on this issue 5 because it affects our consumers. So that is an 6 issue.7 I think sometimes on those kinds of 8 issues, consumers feel that they really cannot reach 9 into the FCC. The brochure, the cellular 10 communications brochure, is a beautiful brochure, but 11 consumers need hands-on help about choice. And that 12 is very, very important as cellular takes on more and 13 more importance in the lives of our consumers.14 So I know that the FCC has done much and 15 you have detailed a lot about what they are doing, but 16 I do think that there is a need to understand that at 17 the local level, not just in D.C., but there are 44 18 members of our national organization. So that means 19 consumers in 44 states, I would think, that are trying 20 to tap into the resources here at the FCC to get 21 information, consumer complaint resolution on issues 22 that their local advocate doesn't have jurisdiction 23 and that they're looking for the FCC's assistance.24 So those are my comments to you. I know 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 171 there are some questions you want to ask me. So I 1 won't --2 MODERATOR BERLYN: We'll wait for Q&A.3 MS. NOEL: I like to anticipate those 4 areas, but that is my message.5 MODERATOR BERLYN: Thank you very much, 6 Betty.7 (Applause.)8 MODERATOR BERLYN: Chrys Wilson with the 9 Maryland Public Service Commission.10 MS. WILSON: Good afternoon. Thank you, 11 Debbie and Scott, for the invitation to begin to build 12 a partnership.13 One of the things I want to address first 14 is the responsibility our office at the commission, 15 which is Office of External Relations, Consumer 16 Affairs, how they resolve consumer issues.17 OER investigates and responds to thousands 18 of consumer complaints regarding both regulated and 19 deregulated gas and electric industries as well as 20 private water companies.21 OER investigates telecommunications 22 disputes, including, but not limited to, local 23 telephone rates and service, interstate telephone 24 rates and service, slamming local and long distance, 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 172 terminations of service, billing disputes, deceptive 1 practices.2 I brought along with me a handout. Feel 3 free to take one with you. It is on the table in the 4 back. It has step by step our dispute process. I 5 won't spend the time today to go through this dispute 6 process, but it is back there on the back table.7 OER's workload is continuing to grow, just 8 like everybody else's. In 2001, we had 35,503 9 telephone inquiries. We investigated 7,824 10 complaints. In 2002, we had 42,604 telephone 11 inquiries. We investigated 6,465. In 2003, we had 12 43,000. And, as you see, it keeps going up, 528. And 13 we investigated 6,818.14 The spike in the consumer complaints in 15 2001 was directly attributed to the implementation of 16 electric restructuring and merling. And, by the way, 17 to date, from January to today's March 26th, we have 18 already investigated approximately 2,500 complaints. 19 So we are sort of swamped with complaints. And it is 20 becoming a major issue.21 OER's mission is to ensure compliance with22 the rules and regulations, to assist consumers in 23 avoiding terminations of service, to ensure 24 cooperation among utilities and suppliers in resolving 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 173 consumer complaints, to inform consumers of choice 1 options, to educate consumers about rights to monitor 2 service quality.3 What type of information could the FCC 4 provide that would help with the work we do for 5 consumers? One of the things that we would like to 6 see is a concise statement clarifying jurisdiction 7 over certain types of complaints, such as wireless 8 versus land line, voice over internet protocol.9 Another issue is updated FCC informational 10 brochures. That would be very helpful for us, 11 up-to-date information on fees affecting users; that 12 is, federal subscriber fees charge, universal service 13 charge, et cetera; updates on any other decisions that 14 affect telephone users.15 Information is very valuable. The more 16 information a consumer has, the better off all of us 17 will be, updates on FCC investigations of specific 18 companies and/or specific issues; that is, ABC 19 company, questionable verification procedures. 20 States' PUC can then begin tracking similar 21 complaints, up-to-date FCC contact lists for proper 22 referral of complaints and asking questions.23 Many times if we just had a contact list, 24 it would just make things a lot easier, a lot 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 174 smoother. Consumers wouldn't bother us as much. They 1 wouldn't complain as much. We just need to know who 2 to direct folks to. And maybe there possibly could be 3 a contact list for consumers and a contact list for 4 the commission.5 How should state and local consumers' 6 offices coordinator their efforts to resolve consumer 7 complaints and other concerns? A list of agencies 8 would be very helpful, contact persons, and 9 jurisdiction, which is mostly important for proper 10 channeling of consumer complaints; that is, cable TV, 11 municipal water, landlord-tenant. E-mail contacts for 12 exchanging information, let's keep the dialogue going, 13 very important.14 Do you have questions? Do you have 15 suggestions for ways to improve the exchange of 16 information between our office and the FCC, e-mail 17 accessibility to FCC contact persons? Many times we 18 just don't know who to contact to get a problem 19 resolved.20 Links from our PSC Web site to the FCC Web 21 site direct to various FCC supports, such as, example, 22 Consumer Advisory Committee status reports or tracking 23 reports of wireless/wire line CLACs; consolidated 24 reports showing the cause and effect between tracking 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 175 systems; FCC statistics on complaints against specific 1 companies or specific issues to allow mapping trends.2 Thank you very much. I hope this will 3 begin a great partnership.4 (Applause.)5 MODERATOR BERLYN: Thank you, Chrys.6 Next speaker is Jane Lawton.7 MS. LAWTON: I'm going to stand up because 8 these folks over here can't even see me. And also 9 since I am the last speaker, I figure I have to wake 10 you up a little bit.11 I am very happy to be here to speak about 12 partnering, particularly because my own background 13 causes me to believe in it very strongly. I started 14 out in my career coming from Oklahoma with the Speaker 15 of the House as a legislative person and spent 10 16 years there and then spent 14 years home with my 17 children on my local city council doing what you are, 18 responding at the very local level and served as mayor 19 in my town for a little while. Now I'm in the county 20 government. And I have been there 12 years.21 So I really feel like I know how important 22 it is to consumers to have a partnership from the 23 various levels of government. I have a handout. You 24 can follow along if you want to, but I think I won't 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 176 use the PowerPoint.1 Cable Communications Administration, 2 Montgomery County has a broader function than just 3 riding herd on cable companies. We negotiate, 4 monitor, administer both cable and telecom franchises, 5 and we receive all of the local complaints. We 6 monitor the system construction, the signal quality.7 I chair and my staff supports the 8 committee that approves wireless sites. We also 9 administer the cable fund. All of the money that 10 comes into us for franchises we turn back to telecom, 11 to cable. We support the peg channels with that 12 funding. We manage the county peg channel. We fund 13 the institutional network and special telecom 14 projects.15 And we monitor and participate, just like 16 this, in federal, state, and local legislative things. 17 This is one of the most important things to my staff, 18 to learn about federal, state, and local law and 19 regulations for those things we have jurisdiction 20 over.21 Our customer complaints are trending up. 22 Why? First of all, it's because of the new advance 23 services and customers' expectations about them. 24 Technology is really complex. So both the provider 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 177 and the receiver of the services sometimes have a 1 learning curve.2 Bundled services are marketed 3 aggressively. And, yet, it is confusing to customers. 4 And particularly as companies begin to market on a 5 regional basis, people don't know if it is available 6 here or there or there.7 Reliability of the services is mixed. It 8 is not totally reliable yet. As the provokers merge 9 and get larger, they appear to be less focused on the 10 individual customers, but throughout all of this, the 11 people who take the calls on a daily basis are the 12 local jurisdiction. Local customers expect local 13 answers. So, no matter who is in charge, we get to 14 answer.15 Some of the issues that come to us, cable 16 modem issues, reliability, repair, customer privacy 17 rates, billing, service contracts, accurate and timely 18 notification of price changes, choice, these are all 19 of them.20 Montgomery County complaints -- and if you 21 will look at your chart, you'll see it. I'm sorry. 22 I'm not at that. In 1998, we had only 228 escalated 23 complaints in our office. It goes up sharply in 2000 24 to 1,306 complaints and in 2003. And then it went to 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 178 1,283 then, 1,435, then 1,342. It is exactly the time 1 that Comcast came in.2 Now, do I think it's Comcast? No. No, I 3 don't. But it is when they started building for their 4 advance services and when customers started to have 5 different kinds of complaints than they did when their 6 television was just an entertainment center in their 7 home.8 I used to think it would go back down once 9 the services are out. Now I don't think so because of 10 all of the reasons I just told you. The Montgomery 11 County cable office is small. And I said to my staff, 12 "We have to do something ourselves. We can't control 13 what the providers do."14 So we ourselves put in great improvements. 15 We started an electronic tracking system. We 16 increased our coordination with providers, even though 17 sometimes that is a struggle and tough.18 We have new customer service forms that 19 are simple and easier. We have improved reporting 20 from our operators. We streamlined our monitoring 21 process. We give regular process reports to elected 22 officials.23 And we generate automatic customer 24 satisfaction surveys that go out to our customers. We 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 179 get a 35 percent return rate, and it's 96 to 98 1 percent satisfaction with my staff. I am proud of 2 that.3 We also strengthen our oversight and 4 enforcement. I'm not saying we started a heavier 5 handed regulation. We did not. However, we saw the 6 need to clarify the requirements that providers had 7 and to let customers understand what was the federal 8 government, what was the state government, what were 9 us and which ones we could do something about and 10 which ones we couldn't do something about.11 We share a compliance checkup chart with 12 providers that has all of the FCC requirements and our 13 requirements. And we say, "You're in compliance," 14 "not in compliance," "in compliance," "not in 15 compliance."16 We established a new Cable Compliance 17 Commission, which listens to individual complaints 18 that are escalated and that we have handled or that 19 the cable company has handled, not us, for over 30 20 days, has come to our office, and is not resolved to 21 the satisfaction of the customer. They can go to this 22 commission and get individual relief.23 This is in addition to a Cable Compliance 24 Commission that we have that advises us about citizen 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 180 issues. Claude Stout sits on that commission. I'm 1 very proud of him.2 We have a Web-based complaint filing. 3 Right now we are looking at a customer bill of rights 4 to be able to show our customers what they should be 5 able to expect in the way of service. Seattle has 6 one. Chicago has one. We're looking at those.7 We have used technology to address our 8 customers' needs. We have video and audio streaming 9 of our government channel. We have closed captioning 10 of all of our government programming. We have video 11 in demand and archiving.12 We have an improved Web site and e-mail. 13 We have increased our programming diversity, including 14 we are looking into language, more language, 15 programming and getting translated programming. We 16 have community programming and surveys ongoing. And 17 we have interactive town meetings now.18 How can we, the local, state, and federal 19 government, help each other help customers? First of 20 all and most important, we can respect each other. We 21 can respect our different roles, not try to replicate 22 our different roles. The federal government doesn't 23 need to be the local answer, but they need to be 24 respectful of us and they need to support us when we 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 181 are answering consumers' questions.1 In order to do that, they need to know 2 about our regulatory structure and we need to know 3 about theirs. And that includes both of us knowing 4 about the state regulations. And we need to put the 5 customer first in that.6 We need to learn our systems of reporting 7 complaints. We need to establish points of contact 8 that are effective and that are knowledgeable. We 9 need to establish a system to identify and learn about 10 customer issues as they are coming in.11 I have had some staff callers call the FCC 12 recently about a couple of local complaints that are 13 FCC authority. They were not answered knowledgeably. 14 You need to know what is coming in to us, and you 15 need to know how to answer it.16 They didn't even know it was your 17 jurisdiction. And I can tell you what those are. We 18 need a system for feedback among our governments. And 19 we need to have information and resource-sharing for 20 local, state, and federal consumer offices.21 The last thing I want to say is I believe 22 the FCC itself can utilize resources, local government 23 resources, that are already available to you, 24 liaisoning with national associations but not just 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 182 attending conventions but really utilizing what 1 national associations are doing, their resources. 2 NATOA, the National Association of Telecommunications 3 Officers and Advisers, right now is doing a customer 4 service report based on best practices from 5 jurisdictions across the country.6 Places that are upholding FCC customer 7 service requirements, things that look like they're 8 the best, the most streamlined, the national 9 association meetings. And I only tell you two, and I 10 close. The NATOA legal seminar, which is coming up 11 right here in D.C. April 22nd and 23rd, and NATOA's 12 annual conference in San Francisco in September. I 13 invite you to request to be on panels and to visit 14 with us at those times.15 In the meantime, I thank you for having 16 the opportunity to tell you my thoughts.17 (Applause.)18 MODERATOR BERLYN: Thank you, Jane. Thank 19 you to all of the panelists, great thoughts there. I 20 know Louis has been writing notes vigorously here. 21 Really, all of those suggestions that have been voiced 22 here on this panel discussion are an excellent start.23 I now would like to in a moment turn to 24 all of you for additional discussion about this topic. 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 183 I know that one of the things that we also want to 1 help the FCC with is because we know our sub working 2 group in meeting and brainstorming does recognize the 3 limited financial resources that the FCC has.4 And so it is always helpful to think about 5 ways in which the FCC can have some initiatives to 6 help that don't add to the long financial list of 7 expenses but, rather, ideas that many of you have 8 mentioned of things that can be implemented within the 9 structure that already exists.10 So, with that, I would like to open it up 11 to questions from all of you. Susan?12 MEMBER PALMER-MAZRUI: I'm glad that they 13 are not aware of the resource limitation that they 14 have because they do a whole lot, probably beyond what 15 most of us would think is possible. I was very 16 impressed with the meeting.17 One of the things, one of the ways that we 18 can help out is I am part of a group through the 19 Alliance for Telecommunication Industry Solutions. 20 What we have been working on is outreach down the road 21 for hearing aid compatibility. Part of our working 22 group has developed a database of consumer and 23 professional organizations around hearing loss and 24 language and will be doing outreach materials.25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 184 We would love to invite someone from your 1 group to participate. We are trying to avoid 2 redundancies and really utilize our community's 3 expertise and knowledge. I think that would be a 4 logical fit and really do appreciate all you have 5 done.6 MODERATOR BERLYN: Yes, Ron?7 MEMBER MALLARD: First of all, I would 8 like to congratulate Jane on running an excellent 9 office in Montgomery affairs that is approaching the 10 level of efficiency and success that we have in 11 Fairfax. She does an excellent job.12 I was wondering if the FCC and Jane would 13 comment on how they handle cable modem-related 14 complaints from citizens.15 MR. SIGALOS: I'll let you go first. I 16 know that is a question better answered to Martha I 17 see over there, who is part of our Consumer Inquiry 18 and Complaints Division.19 I don't know, Martha, if you wanted to 20 help us out here and, Jane, if you wanted to go first.21 MS. CONTI: Thank you. I am pleased to 22 answer that question.23 When we get questions on cable modem 24 complaints, we take the complaint. And we analyze it. 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 185 And we contact the local franchising authority and 1 also the cable company if we are able to define the 2 complaint exactly where the jurisdiction is, but in 3 most cases, when the consumer calls, we don't have all 4 of that information. So our goal is to resolve the 5 complaint and help the consumer that may hold and 6 working sometimes with the LSA to get that done.7 So if I had a little bit more specifics, I 8 could help you, but that is what we do. We don't just 9 leave them lurking idle or saying, "It is not our 10 jurisdiction" because in many cases, we don't know 11 from the initial complaints that come in.12 MEMBER MALLARD: And if I can just ask a 13 little bit further on that question, in your area of 14 responsibility, is there an understanding of what the 15 FCC is empowered to do to correct problems, citizen 16 problems, with services regarding cable modem service?17 MS. CONTI: Yes. Yes, there is. If there 18 is an area that is a little gray or murky, then we do 19 work with that. Again, we just don't leave the 20 consumer hanging and not knowing or bounce them back 21 to the state or to us.22 I am not answering your question.23 MS. LAWTON: Well, I did have a person who 24 called yesterday about cable modem services. You are 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 186 correct. They were referred to the LSA. And they 1 persisted by saying they had already called the LSA 2 and that they understood it was reclassified as an 3 information service. And that was beyond the 4 understanding of the person answering the phone.5 I only say that, and I hesitate to because 6 I have people who answer the phone. And I deal with 7 the cable company that answers. You never know 8 exactly who got it or what the answer is or how it 9 was.10 All I can say is I do believe it is an 11 area where we could understand each other better. 12 That issue and one called about consumer buy-through, 13 recently we called about because it was definitely a 14 requirement of the federal government. The office did 15 not understand the issue at all.16 And so all I am saying is I think it 17 behooves us to educate the people who are indeed 18 exactly as you say, the first line with the public. 19 That is what we are.20 We take cable modem complaints. And we 21 made that decision specifically, even after the FCC 22 reclassified it as an information service. It is the 23 highest ranking thing for complaints, it and billing, 24 most recently in most recent months and before that 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 187 reception and cable modem. So it is not that people 1 aren't always pleased with it, but they are much more 2 upset when their cable modem service goes down.3 We have legislation that was passed by our 4 county council directing our county executive to 5 specifically do executive regulations that had to do 6 with the consumer standards, to broaden them, having 7 to do with cable modem.8 What the customers who testified wanted 9 were some technical standards, which we know we don't 10 have at the federal level.11 Our county executive decided, I think 12 quite appropriately, not to go that route. We did not 13 do any technical or any kind of speeds or reliability. 14 But what we did was we took the regular customer 15 service standards, a telephone answering the repairs, 16 the technical assistance, et cetera. And we applied 17 them to cable modem services.18 We even, in deference to the cable 19 company, dropped a couple of the requirements for 20 turnaround time and for response time to a much lower 21 percentage, recognizing that they are technical 22 answers that take longer to answer and longer 23 sometimes to repair.24 So those executive regulations have been 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 188 drafted and will be heard at our county council later 1 this month. We don't know whether they will be 2 accepted or rejected, but we feel comfortable because 3 our customers we think are best served when we do 4 answer their questions.5 So we do record and try to help with cable 6 modem service calls. And we interact with the cable 7 company, and they respond to them. If push came to 8 shove, I think they might be able to say to us, "You 9 don't have jurisdiction."10 Right now we cooperate and do that.11 MS. CONTI: We have Thomas Wyatt here, who 12 is the deputy bureau chief, who is going to speak to 13 that issue also.14 MR. WYATT: We had a number of discussions 15 with our counterparts about cable modem complaints. 16 What we were trying to accomplish was to make sure 17 that we were not bouncing consumers around.18 So the short of the agreement we struck is 19 that if we receive a cable modem complaint, we don't 20 send that complaint to the LSA. We try to resolve it 21 and work with the consumer.22 Likewise, if the LSA receives one, they 23 don't send it to us. We try to help the consumer so 24 the consumer is not bounced between agencies. That 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 189 was our goal. I think it is working pretty well. We 1 still don't receive a great many in that area. But to 2 the extent that we do, we try to work with the cable 3 operators to resolve them.4 I think we have had some success based on 5 what I have seen. We have seen the companies be very 6 responsive. It sounds like our counterparts are doing 7 the same thing at the LSAs as well.8 I just wanted to clarify that we force 9 that understanding with the goal of not bouncing 10 consumers' choices.11 MS. LAWTON: I don't think all LSAs feel 12 -- well, it is not that they don't feel compelled. It 13 is a tough place to be as an LSA because we do not 14 have the muscle as we do in video issues anymore to 15 enforce.16 MR. WYATT: I think that's why it is 17 important for us to keep dialoguing. To the extent 18 that consumers aren't getting answers, then we want to 19 figure out a way of addressing that. To the extent 20 that LSAs don't feel that they can do what is 21 necessary to help the consumer, then we want to do 22 what we can. So it is really important for us to keep 23 dialoguing and making sure that the consumers aren't 24 bouncing around and being left in the lurch.25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 190 So I apologize for just rushing down, but 1 I wanted to come and clarify that because I spent a 2 lot of time talking about this issue with some of the 3 LSA members.4 Our goal, as I said earlier, was to make 5 sure that we were taking care of consumers and not 6 leaving them in the lurch.7 MODERATOR BERLYN: Thank you. Thank you 8 for coming down and participating in that discussion.9 One of the issues that seems to be present 10 in several of the working groups that I was in this 11 morning as well as in this panel is taking steps to 12 make sure, especially with new technologies and 13 changing regulations, that no consumer concerns fall 14 into these loopholes that are created by the changes 15 in regulations and the development of new 16 technologies.17 So that perhaps may be one of the things 18 that we will want to consider and work closely with 19 the Outreach Division and the complaints folks about 20 as well.21 I see that we are just about out of time. 22 Thank you very much, panelists, for your excellent 23 job in sharing your expertise on the state and local 24 and federal levels with us. Thank you.25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 191 (Applause.)1 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Let me just second 2 that, Debra. It was an excellent presentation. 3 Louis, Betty, Chrys, and Jane, we really appreciate 4 your taking the time and coming to be with us. And we 5 look forward to working with you in the future. So I 6 think it's a very exciting dialogue, absolutely. 7 Debra, thank you for your work in putting it together. 8 We appreciate it. It was really, really excellent.9 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Just a couple of 10 things that I need to say before we go to the public 11 comment section of the meeting. That is I want to 12 encourage you again to fill out your GAO survey. They 13 go into a big pool to see how the federal advisory 14 committees are doing. So be sure you do that.15 I want to make sure I have gotten the 16 emergency contact information from everyone. That is 17 very important. We need that. If you haven't done 18 it, please do it before you leave here today. We are 19 going to lock you in the room.20 Thirdly, just a reminder. Our next 21 meeting is set for the 18th of June, which is a 22 Friday. I hope you have got it on your calendar. We 23 expect to see you here.24 Let me see. I don't know if we have other 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 192 housekeeping items to talk about, Scott, or not. Do 1 we? Okay. Then we would like to go. Does the 2 committee have any other comments that they need to 3 make before we go to the public section, public 4 comments? Andrea?5 MEMBER WILLIAMS: I just want to take this 6 opportunity to thank Debra again for putting together 7 such a great panel. Debra, I am complimenting you. 8 And she is busy.9 I was just saying I wanted to thank you 10 personally again for putting this panel together. It 11 was an excellent, excellent panel.12 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Yes. Amen, amen, 13 absolutely.14 (Applause.)15 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Thank you, Andrea.16 Okay. We go to our public comments 17 section. Al?18 MR. SUNENSTRAL (Via interpreter): Hello. 19 My name is Al Sunenstral. I live in Montgomery 20 County. And because of Jane, it is awesome that I 21 live there. So I just want to thank Jane for that.22 Many of you don't know me, but I was 23 involved with the FCC 12 short years ago. And there 24 was nothing for the disabled community at that point, 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 193 no captioning. There were no TTYs. There were no 1 interpreters. I remember that I had to bring my own 2 interpreter with me, and I had to pay for the 3 interpreter myself to be able to communicate with the 4 FCC staff. Today I just want to say I am happy to see 5 all of the accommodations set up for the disability 6 community.7 And the things I heard yesterday, there8 were some concerns about a lack of captioning for deaf 9 people during the days of the sniper shootings here. 10 And the Enforcement Bureau made a very bad decision in 11 saying that it wasn't an emergency because it wasn't 12 defined clearly.13 I understood that Dane Snowden yesterday 14 was very proud of the reorganization of the FCC, 15 centralizing everything within the FCC. And maybe 16 that has been a good idea. However, the Enforcement 17 Bureau mentioned that the reason the mistake was made 18 was based on a certain staff member's decision and 19 there had to be an appeal process that went through to 20 get an adequate answer.21 Now I am looking around this room, and I 22 don't see 2,000 employees in the FCC here. I see the 23 Disability Rights Office people here, who are very 24 familiar with our situation, but I am sure that those 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 194 other 2,000 employees in the FCC aren't familiar with 1 our particular situation.2 And so I strongly, and I would like to 3 reemphasize strongly, recommend that any determination 4 made in relation to disabilities, the disability 5 community, must go through the DRO initially so that 6 the FCC will minimize the mistakes in the future.7 That was just my comment. I would like to 8 have you reopen your meeting and make a recommendation 9 that all disability-related issues go through the DRO. 10 Thank you.11 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Thank you, Al.12 Scott, what is appropriate? Let me have 13 Scott answer that, please.14 MEMBER MARSHALL: Hi, Al. It's good that 15 you're here.16 I think the folks around the table have 17 heard you. In order to make that formal 18 recommendation from CAC, it would have to be on our 19 next meeting agenda because recommendations that are 20 not noticed in the Federal Register have to wait until 21 the next meeting. That is one of our public access 22 requirements.23 I think one of our working groups 24 certainly could suggest that as a recommendation. And 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 195 then we would consider it at the June meeting. There 1 are several FCC people here. I am sure we have all 2 heard your concern.3 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Thank you, Scott.4 Does that answer? I think that probably 5 answers for Al. Is that okay?6 MR. SUNENSTRAL: If that's the way it 7 works, I have no choice. So we will just have to get 8 used to how the federal bureaucracy works.9 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Yes. That is the way 10 it works, Al. I'm sorry. It's a public notice issue 11 requirement.12 So perhaps we can ask, Claude, if your 13 group would be willing to bring this up at the next 14 meeting so that we can get recognition for Al's 15 request?16 MEMBER STOUT: Okay.17 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Okay? That would be 18 great. That would be great. Thank you both very 19 much.20 Now, additional comments from the public? 21 I believe we have someone here who has asked to be 22 recognized. David Kline?23 MR. KLINE: Members of the FCC Consumer 24 Advisory Committee, fellow citizens, guests, thank you 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 196 for giving me the opportunity to speak here today.1 My name is David Kline. I stand here 2 today as a concerned citizen. I am very worried about 3 the erosion of our free speech rights that has 4 occurred in the past three months.5 There are two major objections that I have 6 to the current activity being taken by the FCC's 7 Enforcement Division. First, it is appalling that the 8 FCC has spent so much time focusing on and singling 9 out one broadcaster for special persecution to the 10 vast exclusion of others.11 How can this administrative bureaucracy of 12 the Executive believe that it is upholding the 13 Constitution of this country by fining, admonishing, 14 and attempting to exile a single broadcaster, Howard 15 Stern, while not raising a finger against others with 16 similar objectionable material?17 How is Oprah Winfrey's humorous discussion 18 of oral sex on March 18th, 2004 any less objectionable 19 than anything on the Howard Stern Show? Similar 20 content is shown daily on the Jerry Springer Show.21 By far, the most objectionable material I 22 have ever heard is the regular humiliation the Maury 23 Povich Show broadcasts when it parades men and women 24 through a television circus in order to find out the 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 197 parentage of the women's children.1 What makes people afraid of Howard Stern's 2 voice is also what makes his voice so important. The 3 best themes in his broadcasts are hypocrisy of 4 celebrity, hypocrisy in the news media, and hypocrisy 5 in our government.6 The most significant reason any government 7 would not want someone like Howard Stern to broadcast 8 is that his valuable incisive questions are exactly 9 what many would like to have answered.10 It is precisely for this reason that not 11 only should the persecution cease but our government 12 should protect his First Amendment rights. While some 13 may not like or agree with all of what is said on his 14 show, we must be willing to protect his right to say 15 it.16 My second objection is about the process 17 of FCC enforcement. Did you know that I have more due 18 process Sixth Amendment rights when I get a parking 19 ticket than when a broadcaster gets fined by the FCC?20 If I get a parking ticket, I can check a 21 box on that ticket and request a trial to decide if I 22 really parked illegally. I have that right guaranteed 23 just for a $30 parking ticket.24 However, if a broadcaster gets fined 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 198 thousands of dollars by the FCC, not only do they not 1 have the right to a trial. They don't even have a 2 right to lodge a complaint about it.3 When was this commission given the right 4 to be judge, jury, and executioner? How can we live 5 with a system that allows a small number of appointees 6 to make the enormous subjective decision about what is 7 right and wrong to say?8 By far, what makes the United States of 9 America, the greatest country in the world, is the 10 protection of the five freedoms of the First 11 Amendment. The war on terrorism pales in comparison 12 to the war on the five freedoms. How can we as a 13 nation set an example for the world if we do not live 14 by, uphold, and defend human liberties?15 I am honored to have the unabridged and 16 constitutionally protected fundamental human right to 17 free speech. God bless the United States of America.18 Thank you.19 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Thank you, David.20 Do we have other comments from the public? 21 Any other public comments?22 (No response.)23 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Do we have any other 24 questions or whatever? We have ordered cabs. They 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 199 should be here at 4:00 o'clock. Other than that, then 1 I guess all I can say is let's go enjoy what is 2 supposed to be a beautiful day outside, but I haven't 3 seen it yet. Also, Scott has a CD of David's handout 4 if anyone would like that.5 So, anyway, I thank all of you for your 6 time and hard work. We will see you in June. Thank 7 you.8 (Whereupon, at 3:55 p.m., the foregoing 9 matter was adjourned.)10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24