UNITED STATES OF AMERICA MINE SAFETY AND HEALTH ADMINISTRATION + + + + + PUBLIC MEETING TO DISCUSS USE OF OR IMPAIRMENT FROM ALCOHOL OR OTHER DRUGS ON MINE PROPERTY + + + + + FRIDAY, NOVEMBER 4, 2005 Earhart Rooms A & B Hyatt Regency Pittsburgh 1111 Airport Road Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania + + + + + 9:00 a.m. MSHA Panel Members: Ed Saxauer, Chairman Chief, Regulatory Development Division Bill Crocco, Chief Accident Investigation Division Gene Autio, Representative Metal and Non-metal Program Tom MacLeod Education and Training Division Bill Baughman, Regulation Specialist Office of Standards P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S (9:03 a.m.) MR. SAXAUER: Good morning. My name is Ed Saxauer. I'm the chief of the regulatory development division for the Office of Standards, Regulations, and Variances of the Mine Safety and Health Administration. On behalf of David Dye, the acting Assistant Secretary of Labor for Mine Safety and Health, I welcome you to this public meeting. This meeting provides an opportunity for you to comment on the topic of the use of or impairment from alcohol or other drugs at mine property. Also with me this morning are other individuals from the Mine Safety and Health Administration. On my right is Bill Crocco, who is the chief of the coal accident investigation division; Gene Autio, who is representing the metal and non-metal program. On my left is Tom MacLeod, on my immediate left is Tom MacLeod of the education and training division, and Bill Baughman, who is a regulation specialist with the Office of Standards. This is the sixth of seven public meetings. These meetings were announced in our advanced notice of proposed rulemaking, or ANPRM. We published this in the Federal Register on October the 4th, 2005. We held meetings last week in Salt Lake City, St. Louis, and Birmingham, and earlier this week in Lexington and Charleston, West Virginia. We will hold our final meeting in Arlington, Virginia, on Tuesday of next week. The Federal Register document has detailed information about the dates and exact locations for the meetings, as well as a discussion of MSHA's reasoning behind the ANPRM. There are extra copies of that document on the table just outside the room. Let me go off the record here for a second. (Off the record.) MR. SAXAUER: I've asked Bill Baughman if he would distribute a copy to everyone in the audience. The purpose of these meetings is to obtain information about the use of or impairment from alcohol and other drugs on mine property. We will use the information you provide at these meetings, as well as your written comments, to help us make decisions about whether we need to change our existing rules, develop new rules, or provide training or other assistance to the mining community on these issues. Because there can be a variety of approaches to address the problems of alcohol and other drugs, we are seeking information relating to both regulatory and nonregulatory approaches. The information we obtain from these meetings and comments will help us develop a more informed understanding of the problem and solutions. Our preliminary review of our fatal and non-fatal mine accident records revealed a number of instances in which alcohol, or other drugs, or drug paraphernalia were found or were reported, or in which the post accident toxicology screen revealed the presence of alcohol or other drugs. However, our accident investigations do not routinely include an inquiry into the use of alcohol or other drugs as a contributing factor. There may be instances in which alcohol or other drugs were involved in accidents and either are not reported to us or we do no uncover them during investigations. We are concerned that alcohol and other drugs can create risks to miner safety. We have initiated a number of education and outreach efforts to raise awareness in the mining industry of the safety hazards stemming from the use of alcohol and other drugs. They include alliances with four international labor unions, production of awareness videos on the hazards of alcohol and other drugs, monetary grants to states to provide substance abuse training, and stakeholder meetings at the local level to discuss these issues and raise awareness of the problems. Additionally, during a one-day summit we conducted with the states of Kentucky, Virginia, and West Virginia, in 2004, several coal mine operators described the effectiveness of a drug-free workplace program and expressed their concern that such programs were not universal in the industry. The significance of the problem of alcohol and other drugs in the workplace has been recognized by the federal government, and a number of programs have been implemented and various statutes enacted with the goal of reducing the use of alcohol and other drugs in the workplace. For example, the Anti-drug Abuse Act of 1986 allows the Secretary of Labor to initiate efforts to address the issue. The Omnibus Transportation Employee Testing Act of 1991 requires the transportation industry employers to conduct drug and alcohol testing for employees in, quote, "safety sensitive," positions. The Drug-free Workplace Act of 1998 establishes grant programs that assist small businesses in developing drug-free workplace programs. And DOL's Working Partners for an Alcohol and Drug-free Workplace, of which we are a partner, is a public outreach campaign raising awareness and assisting employers to implement these programs. On a regulatory side of the issue, we currently have a safety standard for metal and non-metal mines that addresses the use of alcohol and narcotics at these mines. The rule language is the same for both surface and underground metal and non-metal mines. And the language simply states, quote, "Intoxicating beverages and narcotics shall not be permitted or used in or around mines. Persons under the influence of alcohol or narcotics shall not be permitted on the job." Between January 1, 2000, and June 30, 2005, we issued 75 violations of the metal and non-metal surface rule, and 3 violations of the metal and non-metal underground rule. We do not have a similar standard for coal mines. Using drugs or alcohol in a mine can impair a miner's judgment significantly at a time when a miner needs to be alert and aware. Even prescription medicines can affect a workers perception and reaction time. Mining is a complicated and hazardous occupation, and a clear focus on the work at hand is a critical component of workplace safety. Therefore, through these public meetings and written comments, we are seeking data and information about six general topics that are outlined in the Federal Register notice. They are as follows: A. The nature, extent, and impact of substance abuse at the workplace, including how to measure the extent of the problem. B. The types of prohibited substances in use and the problems they present. C. The impact of effective training to address substance abuse. D. How our investigation of accidents could address alcohol and other drugs. E. The aspects of a drug-free workplace program, how they work, and how well they work. F. The cost and benefits of addressing substance abuse at mines. The Federal Register document poses several questions about each of these issues and you are encouraged to respond to these questions specifically. The procedure for each of our public meetings is the same. Those who have notified us in advance of their intent to speak or who have signed up today will make their presentations first. After the scheduled speakers are finished, others are free to speak. We will conclude this public meeting when the last speaker has finished. This meeting will be conducted in an informal manner and rules of evidence will not apply. The MSHA panel may ask questions to clarify statements for the record, but there will be no cross-examination of the speaker. If you wish to present any written statements or information today, please clearly identify your material and give them to me before the conclusion of the meeting. I will identify the material for the record, according to the title as you submitted it. You may also submit comments following the meeting, but you must submit those by November 27th, which is the close of the comment period. You may submit comments to us by electronic mail, fax, or regular mail at the addresses listed in the Federal Register notice. A transcript of this meeting will be made available on our website within several days. Thank you for your patience and attention to these introductory remarks. We will now being with persons who have requested to speak. To ensure an accurate record, please state your name and organization clearly, and then spell your name. Our first speaker is George Hespodar? MR. HOSPODAR: Hospodar. MR. SAXAUER: Hospodar, excuse me. MR. HOSPODAR: Good morning. MR. SAXAUER: Good morning. MR. HOSPODAR: My name is George Hospodar, it's H-O-S-P-O-D-A-R. I'm with Rinker Materials in Miami. I won't keep you gentlemen too long. I just, it's been I've been, my term in Safety has gone from 1974 to present. Most of my time has been either in the steel industry or in mining. And I've seen the results first-hand of drug and alcohol abuse, early on more alcohol abuse but in the last 30 years drugs have come on pretty strong. And they tear up our people, they tear up their families, add undue costs to the cost of doing business. And, unfortunately, from what I've seen, even with an active drug-testing program, unless the individuals involved want to be helped, you really can't help them. I'd like to see that change, but, in my experience, that's what it's been. Some of the things that I think that MSHA could do, well, everybody, there continues to be a problem even for companies who have active drug and alcohol testing programs. Consistency with testing, I mean, if you get a guy injured and you can't get him to the drug test before he gets to the hospital, there's a lot of hospitals don't want to get involved or do the test. And I think that's information in an accident investigation you really need to have. And we've lowered our drug test positive rates, we're down under one percent. We test 30 percent of the division every year and we're down to less than 1 positive a year, which to me is phenomenal. But still a lot of the new drugs that are coming out, unless you test specifically for them, you'll never know. You do a standard five-pound drug test and these will slip right through the cracks, and even if you do a ten-pound, some of them slip right through the cracks. And drugs and alcohol are incompatible with running a safe mining operation. The equipment is too big. Things happen too fast. You guys have seen the mines and you've been on a lot of the haul roads. You know, coming down off a mountain and you lose control of your haul truck just because you're a little too high, that's about the only chance you get. Testing is only a minor part of the program. Education, counseling, EAP performance is major and should be part of all these programs. We conducted a confidential survey amongst our work group, I'm with the cement division, but also through our aggregate group, asking our employees if they wanted a drug and alcohol testing program. And the positive responses were amazing how many guys actually wanted a drug and alcohol testing program, because they didn't want to be working next to somebody in a high hazard area who could be affected by drugs or alcohol. It seemed like only the people who were also affected by drug and alcohol voted against it, but I mean that's only from reading confidential responses. But I know in dealing through our safety committees and that, that it's been a registered complaint constantly, not only for our own employees to be tested, but for outside contractors to be tested on the same regularity as our employees. And we try to do that with regularity. And like I said, in the last few years, our biggest amount positives have been in the contractors and they are gone off the property before the ink dries on the paper. I think MSHA could have a big influence on this issue in two or three ways. I know they do have a drug and alcohol education and training program, but I think that needs to be strengthened. Include drug and alcohol as part of the root cause investigation of fatalities. I think this is information that really needs to be know. Provide better interpretation and consistency on 56.2, 20001. I know a lot of states have gotten to the point where if you fail a drug test, you're accident is noncompensable. I don't know if things like that need to be done, but I do think that this is a regulation that has to be personal to the individual, not the company, such as taking smoking in a no smoking area, or taking flammable materials down in a coal mine. You know, the individual is held responsible for that. To me, how could you hold a company responsible for that. And if a company is going out of its way to do drug testing and is running a good program, to me the regulation has to be for the individual, because it's an individual decision that this guy makes. Or especially if someone who is involved in an accident, heaven forbid, the offending party is fine and a gentleman was injured or killed, had nothing to do with the alcohol or drug abuse, is just in the wrong place at the wrong time. That's about all I have to say, unless you have some questions? MR. AUTIO: Do you do any testing after accidents or incidents? MR. HOSPODAR: Oh, yes. We do, we do pre-employment. And I did make a mistake. It's amazing to me how many pre-employment tests we get that are positive. People know they are coming in for a drug test and they fail anyway. To me it makes no sense. We do post accident. We do random testing. We do reasonable cause. In the last five years, of the three reasonable cause testings that we did, we turned one positive. The other two were basically because the guys were diabetic and were going into a low sugar attack, which caused everybody to think they've got a problem. But we do, do that and post accident. But like I said, one of the biggest problems with the post accident is you can't get a drug-testing company into the hospital to do the test. A lot of hospitals just don't want to get involved. It's like throwing up a wall, it's your problem, it's not ours, we're here just to treat this individual. But we've had success with having companies come in while employees are in the hospital to do the test. But at that, you lose your time frame of reference -- MR. AUTIO: Can you attribute any benefits to your accident rates or absenteeism or anything for your drug program? MR. HOSPODAR: It would be pretty hard to do that. Although, our accident rate is, I just looked at our divisional PRI for the other day and it's 1.5. So I think we do a pretty good job of holding down recordable injuries. And I just think that the drug-testing program is part of the process to hold that down. We have had, like I said, we've been doing testing since the time I've been with Rinker, and we've seen our positive results drop like a rock over the last two, three years. They were never real high. But if I kept a record of how many, how many pre-employments were bad, that would probably be the highest number over all of them. But, you know, I get people coming to me on a monthly basis and say, you know, I think maybe we've got a problem here. So you watch and, if you do, you test. And to me our work force is real in tune to that, making sure that everybody is on the up and up, who is on the work force, who could have input in causing them harm, especially during a kiln down (ph.) or a major rebuild situation where we have contractors climbing over the place like ants. And, like I said, we hold our contractors to the same standard. MR. SAXAUER: Let me just follow up on that issue with the contractors. How do you actually handle the contractor situation when someone comes, when a contractor comes in, how do you deal with the contractor? MR. HOSPODAR: Number one, we meet with every contractor before they start work. And this is part of the contract, we run a drug-free workplace here, anybody that is, anyone who has been injured will be drug tested. And if you find a positive drug test at that point in time, you know, it's up to them on how they want to handle it with their worker's comp, but that employee is off the property now. And if we turn too many, the entire contractor will be off the property. MR. SAXAUER: What are the, what's the size of your operations? MR. HOSPODAR: What? MR. SAXAUER: What are the size of your operations? MR. HOSPODAR: Okay. At the cement mill in Miami, we have about 130 employees. The entire division, cement division has about 320 in two mills and two ports, two oceangoing ports. And where I expected to see more was on the longshoring end, in the ports, but we don't, which is fabulous, because longshoremen could be, it's a whole different ball ground. MR. SAXAUER: Well, in your opinion, is there any one aspect of your program that's more responsible for reducing the positive rate? Or what, what portions of your program do you think are most effective in that regard? MR. HOSPODAR: Well, one part of the corporate, we're part of an overall corporate program and corporate set the standard for rehabilitation. For you to be eligible for rehab, you have to come in, and literally turn yourself in and ask for help. If you get caught on a random drug test or the day you get told it's time to go for your test, you can't throw your hands up and go I need help. There's been a lot of discussion back and forth on that point, but that part of it has got a lot of teeth in it. And we have had people come to us and say I need help, who probably -- the success rate on a rehab may be two percent, but you've got to say, well, you've got to give the guy a chance. MR. SAXAUER: You mentioned that in your survey a number of your employees indicated they wanted a drug-testing program or some, some kind of a drug program. MR. HOSPODAR: Some form, right. MR. SAXAUER: Do you have an idea or would this be most of your employees that wanted that or -- MR. HOSPODAR: It was in the high, it was in the low 90 percentile. MR. SAXAUER: Okay. MR. CROCCO: On your post-accident testing, you mentioned that the victim would be tested routinely. Is anybody else included in that testing? I mean if a, if a guy were operating a machine or a truck and run over somebody, obviously the victim there may have been innocent. So -- MR. HOSPODAR: The operator would have been tested. MR. CROCCO: So do you test everybody directly involved in the accident routinely? MR. HOSPODAR: If we have a vehicle accident involved with a pedestrian, of course, the pedestrian is going to have a worse accident of anybody. And it's just part of the deal, if you're going to the doctor, you're going to supply a drug, but, in that case, the operator would definitely be tested. If they were moving a crane, they had a spotter for the crane, the spotter would go, too. It's you'd have to sit down and look at every individual accident to see how many types of people, how many people who were involved that you would test. But we have had situations we have sent out as many as five people for one operation. And it was really just a major close call, someone could have died in. MR. SAXAUER: If I may, do you have objective criteria or, as you suggested, you handle this on a subjective, a case by case basis? MR. HOSPODAR: Multiple people involved in a single accident, yes. It's not spelled out. You review the accident with the supervisor or the department head and, in some cases, even a union representative. Guys will get a drug test, some of these people, this is what happened, this is who got hurt, if anyone, this is where the shortfalls were, we need to come up with a list, you know, which people involved in this had some actions that were questionable and should be brought to test, when we can. MR. CROCCO: We've heard a pretty wide range of costs to have drug tests analyzed. Do you have any idea how much one of your analyses costs? MR. HOSPODAR: Ours is $35 bucks. MR. CROCCO: $35 bucks? MR. HOSPODAR: Yeah. MR. CROCCO: Okay. MR. BAUGHMAN: Can you elaborate on that a little bit, if that's for the screening and then if it comes up in  MR. HOSPODAR: That's for the collection and the screening. MR. BAUGHMAN: Collection and screening. And then if it comes up indicated that there might be further testing needed, is there additional cost? MR. HOSPODAR: We have an additional cost. MR. BAUGHMAN: Inclusive. MR. HOSPODAR: So, yeah, for, you know, Miami's got 4 million people in two county areas, so a lot of people doing drug tests, and so there's a lot, for a lot of good reasons. But it costs. Even when I worked back here in Pittsburgh, it was not much more than $35. And we got our results quick as you can imagine. Usually when you don't, you have a problem. MR. BAUGHMAN: Did you mention that you had an employee assistance program? MR. HOSPODAR: Yes. MR. BAUGHMAN: And what about general medical care program for your employees? MR. HOSPODAR: Oh, yeah, you know, someone comes to us, they'll walk up, I'm trying to work this problem out on my own, I don't have a chance here, can I get help? Our EAP, not a problem, get them into a problem. I'd say probably 90 percent of the cost is picked up by their EAP program. MR. BAUGHMAN: And the testing, the random testing, is that part of the EAP or is that a separate -- MR. HOSPODAR: Yeah, well, your EAP program, you're tested at my whim for the next year. And then you, and then for the next ten days, you go for a ten-day test, one, just till your first year is up, and then you're back on a normal schedule with everybody else. MR. BAUGHMAN: But as far as just a general random testing, you said you test about 30 employees per year? MR. HOSPODAR: No, we test -- MR. BAUGHMAN: Thirty percent? MR. HOSPODAR: -- 30 percent. MR. BAUGHMAN: Thirty percent. MR. HOSPODAR: Of the division, yeah, so we'll get well over 100 employees out of the 330-man division. MR. BAUGHMAN: And that -- MR. HOSPODAR: Roughly 12 a month. MR. BAUGHMAN: How do you randomize? MR. HOSPODAR: We have a randomized program. The secretary sits in there and pushes a button, and it kicks them out on a list. MR. BAUGHMAN: And that testing is part, not part of the EAP system, general -- MR. HOSPODAR: That's just the general random drug testing program. MR. BAUGHMAN: That you, you work with a contractor for the sampling and -- MR. HOSPODAR: We have a group. We just started a new group, yesterday, coming to the plant. And we'll try to pick up as many of them as we can that day, at the plant. Somebody is on vacation, when they come in, we take them to the plant, the next week for their test. MR. BAUGHMAN: Yeah, okay. That's one part I guess I wasn't very clear. To administer the random drug testing, do you do on-site collection or do you send them to a site? MR. HOSPODAR: We try to do on-site collection, get as many as we can every month, because it's simpler for everybody. But if I've got a guy on vacation, on a day off, when I call these people into do it, the next day they came in or the next week, someone will take them to the clinic to have a test drawn. MR. BAUGHMAN: I see. MR. HOSPODAR: So -- MR. SAXAUER: I have just one more question. As far as the employees that we would consider, you know, miners under our Act, would you have any numbers as far as what the percentage was at the onset of your program and what the percentage of positives are currently? MR. HOSPODAR: Our current range of positives is under one percent. Our guess to when we started was probably a three percent guess. That guess was based on testing that the corporation would do. They would come on an operation and walk the whole operation down, just test the whole operation one day. And anybody that came in, if I worked for another division and you walk into the cement plant, you're going that day. They were run. But the worst they ever got was in one of the offices. But we were running in the operations about three percent. And you're talking only about a two percent drop, but that holds real consistently. But like I said, what I worry about are the drugs that slip through on a normal five-drug count. MR. SAXAUER: So you tested the employees in the office, as well, so -- MR. HOSPODAR: Oh, yes. MR. SAXAUER: -- you test everybody? MR. HOSPODAR: Everybody in the division is part of that random sample, even the president of the division, as it should be. And I've had to call Eddie a couple of times and say it's time for you to go. But we get no pushback from any of the corporate folks that are in our division or for the, you know, like I said, the president of the division, the vice president of the division. You know, usually, it's like, damn, I've got to be, and you've got 24 hours, go, okay. But it's worked for a while. MR. SAXAUER: Okay. Bill? MR. BAUGHMAN: Yeah. Have you had any incidences where somebody that has tested positive has come back and challenged -- MR. HOSPODAR: Oh, yeah. MR. BAUGHMAN: -- the results or the actions? MR. HOSPODAR: I've had two people do that, two people here, probably ten total in my career, and none of them has ever passed the test, because they'll resample the same -- MR. BAUGHMAN: Has there been very many costs associated with that type of activity -- MR. HOSPODAR: The cost usually, well, I can tell you, in all the cases I was involved in, if you're challenging the results, you pay for the next test. And if the test comes up negative, I'll pay for the test. But if it comes out positive, you've already paid for the test, you've lost your money. But I've never had one come back. MR. BAUGHMAN: All right. MR. SAXAUER: Okay, thank you very much. MR. HOSPODAR: Thank you. MR. SAXAUER: Our next speaker is John Matsko, III. MR. MATSKO: Good morning, gentlemen. ALL: Good morning. MR. MATSKO: My name is John Matsko, III. I am the director of training, excuse me, the director of safety, personnel, and environmental matters for PBS Coal Company located in Somerset County, Pennsylvania. I agree with, with all of you that drugs and alcohol has definitely been a problem. It's been a problem since the beginning of my start in the mining industry, which is June of 1969. In June of '69, through the years, I've found, because I was actually in the work force working side by side with miners, that alcohol was a big problem. After the Vietnam war, it turned into marijuana, cocaine, hashish, and those types of drugs. It changed because our society was changing, just as it is, today. It's changing inside the mining industry like it is out here. Drugs become more easier to get. The heroins and those type of drugs have become easier because the cost of them. It's a bigger problem than what a lot of people understand or even know. I'm speaking from personal experience, because my son is a heroin addict. I know many of the young men in the area that have got addicted to the heroin. How danger is it, dangerous? It's like giving a six year old an automatic weapon with one round chambered and the safe off. We do testing at PBS Coals. In my 20 years as manager, I have disciplined, let me say it this way, I have discharged two individuals because of alcohol and drug use. I've been doing this for 20 years in the industry. I became aware of it a long time ago, as I told you. We like to think we're ahead of many of the companies in the industry. We do pre-employment, post accident. And when I say accident, all people that are injured on-site must be transported by ambulance. If they refuse, they are disciplined up to and including termination. They are transported to a medical facility. We have an agreement with the local hospitals, a letter has been sent to them, and all individuals transported are drug tested. We also drug test those individuals who have accidents that are property damage or equipment damage. They are also transported by ambulance and tested. The pre-employment, I've had two individuals fail their drug test. We have zero tolerance. One strike and you're out. We do afford the individuals to come to us, if they have a problem with drugs or alcohol, for rehabilitation at no cost to them. And as our last speaker said, if the don't come to us and we do test them, they are discharged. They are terminated. My thoughts are this, if they don't go for drug testing, they refuse to go in the ambulance, it becomes a legal matter, so be it. It'll be at their expense. Your turn. MR. CROCCO: You mentioned you do pre-employment and post accident. You don't do any kind of random testing on an ongoing basis? MR. MATSKO: We do if an employee shows the signs where we may do, may do the testing, such as being late on a regular basis, not cooperating with the other employees, not getting his work tasks done, leaving work early on a regular basis, those type of things, we do a random testing at that point. We do not, per se, go through 30 percent, 10 percent of our work force for testing. One of the most important parts of this is, is education. We've been doing drug and alcohol testing for a number of years in our annual refresher training class. We are assisted in training with Penn State University and DEP. The one big thing is hiring of these, of your employees is very important. You've got to start right there. And what I mean is you've got to do screening, background checks, etc. It can't be I need a man tomorrow, how soon can you get him in for a physical, and get him trained in the classroom, and get him to work. No, no. You've got to understand this is going to take some period of time. It may take up to three weeks, four weeks till you can initially clear this gentleman. Some people use the word nepotism, but I find it works. We're in a small mining area. And I'm going to say this, of the 350 employees that are employed at PBS, I know each one's first name, last name, what shift, what piece of equipment and what job he's on. We've become very close. I've become very close to my men. Nepotism, it works. If we have a problem with anyone of drug or alcohol abuse, the employees would be the first to know. I'd be the second. They are that close with us in the company. They will come and report if they're having problems with so and so on the job of arguing, fighting, not performing his work. I recently asked my two superintendents, my general superintendent of the service, and general superintendent of the plant did we have a problem. Their answer was no, and I believe them, because the same people they're dealing with everyday, I know them also. I know them in their social life. That's the advantage that I have, being in a small area. Being in a small community, word of mouth goes a long way when you're hiring. You know, I never use the three references that are on that application. Those are the last three I'd want to use. MR. SAXAUER: If you were going to give us some advice on what we can do as a federal agency to deal with the drug problem on mine properties, what would you recommend to us? MR. MATSKO: I'm going to recommend, because there are so many small operations, just the other day, to give you an example, I stopped for lunch on the road and there was a two-man band at one mine and another man they have five employees. I think earlier they were saying in the back that a lot of people didn't know the seminar was today, okay, that we were having this today. One of them don't have the access to computers, because they're just little mom-and-pop coal mines, a lot of places. But we need and I'm a firm believer in this, I've always been, because I trained, was an instructor for Penn State University working with Donald Conrad. Tom, I think you know Donald, okay. Don and I go way back. That education and training of managers, safety directors, first line supervisors, and then into the work force. I think it's a big education process. It's a difficult one, because this problem we have, you know, is not just in our industry. It's been here for many years. I can just imagine how many deaths that were caused by drug and alcohol in the past that we did not do testing or recognize in the earlier days. So it's not something new. It's something new that people are recognizing. So education and training would be my answer. MR. SAXAUER: Let me just clarify. When I spoke to you guys in the back of the room before the meeting, I didn't mean to suggest that people didn't know that there was a meeting today. I guess what I really was talking about was that in another meeting a speaker mentioned that she was, I guess, sort of surprised that we didn't have a proposed rule at this stage. And really this is our effort to try to elicit input to help us decide whether we are going to develop a rule and, if so, what the nature of that rule would be. So I might as well clarify that again for this audience. So we are looking for your input and your help to enable us to determine the best possible way to proceed with this. Okay. MR. CROCCO: Can I ask you a question about following up on the education and training aspect, how do you handle that at your company, is that something you do during annual retraining or do you handle that during safety meetings, or at other times to, to get that educational aspect out to the employees? MR. MATSKO: Okay. Originally, we began in the annual refresher training class. And then, of course, with the supervisors, with their additional training they're required every year, we began some time ago giving a little bit, a little bit, a little bit, feeding, feeding them, nurturing them along very slowly to where we are today. But it happens in the annual refresher and supervisor training. Now we do speak about it at our safety talks, when accidents occur, as they in the past were suspected on drug and alcohols, okay, from reading the fatal grams, we bring that to their attention. Well, we also have a monthly newspaper that we, it's called The Bulletin, that we issue to each family. We send it to their homes. And we always, it always, almost 100 percent of it basically covers safety on the job, for the family to read. So that also, that information is going to the home from us also. MR. MacLEOD: If I could ask a question along the lines of the education and training. If you were to tell or recommend to MSHA in terms of education and training, what would you visualize that an education and training program dealing with the issue of drugs? We've heard some people talk about their training is just talking about their policy, you know, not anything further beyond that. I'm just curious where you think, you know, the training ought to go beyond just a discussion of, in your case, the policies that you have in place? MR. MATSKO: Okay. Well, some, what we've done to help educate everyone is that they recognize the signs and symptoms of a team member that may be using drugs or alcohol. We use the fatal grams or highway statistics. We use all available information that we can. I mean we, we trying to paint it very black, very black with a red outline of blood. We educate them to the point, Tom, where we, they know we're not playing games. We have zero tolerance. So we need, we need to, you know, train them, educate them, not only the effects of drugs, of drug and alcohol on the site, but at home, where families are torn apart. In fact, where murders, a lot of robberies turn into murders, we paint it as black as we can to show them the severity of it. You're asking me for a course outline. It's one of those things, Tom, where you just start rolling when you're in class as an instructor. MR. MacLEOD: Thanks. MR. AUTIO: Do you do any specialized testing for your supervisors, managers on the symptoms beyond for the regular miners, for them to recognize them, someone's maybe under the influence of drugs or alcohol? MR. MATSKO: We basically, it's the courses we've done with the state, and with DEP, and Penn State, when our foremen come through their yearly training, they're in with the crews, okay. So they're getting the same training in that eight hours. And then when the supervisors come in, they're getting a little more advanced, more information on drugs and alcohols, of recognizing the signs and symptoms of abusing it or abusing it, I should say. MR. AUTIO: And then for the testing that you're, you're doing, would you be able to give us an idea of the costs for your testing and how many? Do you do a five panel screen or do you do more than that? MR. MATSKO: We do a five panel. Our cost also around, I'm going to say somewhere of $40, $40 to $45. If you're looking for percents of people that I have preemployment, which most recently happened. We had two candidates failed a pre-employment test. And one thing about drug screening, we were speaking back in the back room earlier, some of these guys are as slick as professional ball players, when it comes to drug testing. There's all type of disguise agents they can take to disguise the drug they're taking. It's kind of like a steroid with the ball players. As fast as they detect what the steroid is, they're masking it with something else. So it's an ongoing game. The two fellows that I had, their samples came up negative but diluted, which means they altered the sample in some means by adding another contaminant, another drug, or by digesting, digesting a lot of water, okay. If you give them any kind of time period, you can say, hey, I want you there tomorrow morning at 8:00, they're going to go home and drink or do whatever, as much water as they can. It'll dilute the sample. And a lot of places will test, it'll come up negative. Ours, they're, they're checking it and it'll come up. It won't tell you the drug, but it'll tell you it's diluted. MR. SAXAUER: Do you treat that as a positive? MR. MATSKO: Yes. Yes. Yes, we do. In my history there of a little over 21 years, it's been, with this company, our percent of detection has been about .6 percent, .06 percent, less than 1 percent. MR. SAXAUER: That's the pre-employment or the -- MR. MATSKO: That's pre-employment and post accident. Our absent rate, we're, the PBS Coals has one of the lowest incident rates in the United States for an operation of its size. We're honored every year or almost every other year by the National Home Safety Association. And myself being president of the Somerset Council, we've had guest speakers come into our council and do presentations of drug and alcohol abuse. And once again, at those meetings, we're open to, our Homes meeting, on those occasions, the families come in. If you have a son or a daughter, you can bring them into that meeting, or your wife, at that particular meeting. MR. SAXAUER: Anything else? MR. AUTIO: You did say you have, did you have any DEP program or are you, you have an employee assistance program, you said, if they come to you before they test positive? MR. MATSKO: Yes, yes. And this is one of the things we cover in the annual refresher training. We've done it for years. The team members are made aware that if they have a drug or alcohol problem, or a member of their families, we would assist them confidentially in giving them the help that they need or their family members need. We try to give them the proper guidance to counseling organizations, church, medical, psychological, whatever it may be. But if they do not come forward to us and we suspect or they have an accident and they become positive, they are terminated. MR. AUTIO: Have you had some successes with people going into programs and coming back, and continuing to be good, good workers, miners? MR. MATSKO: You know, I've only had, and this was about ten years ago, I had one miner go into a, he actually, at that time, we were handling things he didn(t have a choice, you know -- yeah, he did. It was either go into counseling, go into the ward, or be terminated. And he lasted two days in counseling, in a ward, in a professional ward, and he walked out. And I haven't seen him since. MR. SAXAUER: Thanks. Any other questions? John, thank you. MR. MATSKO: Yes. Thank you, gentlemen. MR. SAXAUER: Are there any other speakers, at this time? Okay, no one has indicated an interest in speaking. What I'm going to do is go off the record for about ten minutes, we'll take a little break, then we'll come back and we'll ask the same question, and see if we can elicit any different response in terms of speakers. Okay, we're off the record now. (Off the record.) MR. SAXAUER: Back on the record. Is there anyone in the audience who cares to address us? If not, then we'll just adjourn the meeting. Thank you. (Whereupon, at 10:07 a.m., the hearing closed.) ?? ?? NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com