Bill-- if I can jump in here---Kathleen's quote is, unfortunately more or less accurate.? This is the great soft underbelly of the field: no consistent definition nor diagnostic procedures.? The great criticism of the definitions is that they are not diagnosable--they only are exclusive--it is such and so problem that is not the result of this or that.?? That fact, plus the unavoidable fact that despite the testing world's devotion to it, the discrepancy model is full of flaws. What Kathleen's quote primarily refers to is that states' laws about how many standard deviations on IQ and achievement tests constitute a profile considered to be typical of LD varies so much that indeed, one COULD travel west to east and be LD, not LD, ADD, MR, etc. The variation is so great that one can only conclude that at bottom, the decision about cutoff scores is arbitrary.? There is no real reason why in one someone having scores that diverge by 1.5 standard deviations is more or less LD than someone having scores diverging by 2 standard deviations in the state next door.? 

Moreover, a roomful of diagnosticians interpreting the tests would have wildly divergent conclusions about who had LD and who did not--in both groups.? The fragility of a decision based on the scores of just the two tests is such that diagnosticians realistically need a LOT of supporting evidence gained through other testing, evaluation, interview and history.? A really good diagnosis should involve several sessions with the diagnostician and hours of interpretation.? Few adults in adult education ever get that kind of diagnosis because it is very expensive. ? In my mind, the whole process is downright scary, to say nothing of harmful to a lot of people.? 

And relevant to the field of adult ed. is the fact that few diagnosticians are trained and experienced in testing and evaluating ADULTS.? I remember hearing two states TANF representatives a couple of summers ago reporting on fiascos that had happened in their states when they thought they had vetted diagnosticians well, but had not. The diagnosticians were either declaring all members of different groups as having MR or using cutoff scores without reference to other tests or information--which, as I indicated above, will inevitably result in lots of people being declared LD or even MR despite other evidence to the contrary. In both cases, panic ensued as these conclusions were 100% actionable.?? 

One flaw cited since the inception of the discrepancy model in the mid 70's to satisfy the federal law according accommodations to those deemed to have LD is that if one took any population of 1,000 "normal" people and gave them IQ and achievement tests, a great many would have the discrepancy profile that is considered typical of LD; conversely, if you tested 1,000 people who had been previously diagnosed as having LD, many of those would NOT have the discrepancy needed for legal definition of LD.?? That is because the field of identification of the real causes of and nature of LD as we know it in the US is still in its infancy.? Neuroscience is on the way to providing us with much finer tuned answers to what is going on in someone's brain.? A neuropsychologist I worked with not long ago commented after attending an MIT conference on the brain that he felt like he was doing his diagnostic work with axes and shovels, so crude does the testing model look in the face of sophisticated science that can watch the brain work.? 

Another problem with the discrepancy model is that it is a self-fulfilling prophecy--if one has reading deficits or processing difficulties or abstraction difficulties, one will do poorly on the IQ and/or achievement tests-- so even if one has actually kept up in school through excellent compensatory skills, the achievement tests will not show that.? That is why a good diagnostician needs to look at a wide variety of tests and information and not just the two pieces used for the discrepancy.? 

Still another decades-old objection to the IQ and achievement testing is that they are culturally biased if one is not of the American middle class.? Work has been done to alleviate the bias, but much of it is still there.? A story I read just a few years ago about Wechsler, of the IQ test, was about one item in the verbal reasoning test in which a child is asked what he would do if a playmate hit him while they were on the playground.? Sociologists and others representing inner-city children said that in those cultures the right answer would be to hit the other kid back--while Wechsler was quoted as saying. " That is wrong.? A child should walk away from a fight."???? Ha ha.....??? Of course, no amount of work is going to make our testing models culturally and linguistically appropriate for persons from other cultures and language backgrounds--but that is a discussion unto itself!
 
In fact, if one mines the literature of LD well, only dyslexia has been pinned down enough internationally through brain studies to be diagnosable through direct testing--and that means testing for phonological deficits that appear to cause reading difficulties, not through the discrepancy model.? However, even that conclusion is being hotly contested by those who say there is still an underlying cause to the phonological deficits and THAT would be the cause of dyslexia--so stay tuned and open minded about changes in diagnosis and definition that hopefully will be more specific and helpful.? 

Robin Lovrien Schwarz, M. Sp. Ed:LD
Independent Consultant in Adult ESOL/Education and Learning Difficulties



 


 

-----Original Message-----
From: Katherine G <Kgotthardt at comcast.net>
To: The Learning Disabilities Discussion List <learningdisabilities at nifl.gov>
Sent: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 10:12 am
Subject: [LearningDisabilities 1469] Re: Transition Questions










Someone on another list told me if you want to change your diagnosis, just
cross state lines.  Does that answer your question?  LOL.

Katherine Mercurio Gotthardt, ESOL Online Instructor
Prince William County Public Schools
Adult Education
P.O. Box 389
Manassas, VA 20108
work 703-791-8387
fax 703-791-8889


 -----Original Message-----
From: learningdisabilities-bounces at nifl.gov
[mailto:learningdisabilities-bounces at nifl.gov]On Behalf Of Will Fagan
Sent: Monday, November 05, 2007 1:09 PM
To: The Learning Disabilities Discussion List
Subject: [LearningDisabilities 1456] Re: Transition Questions


Is there a common diagnosis for learning disability across the nation?
Are common tests used as part of this diagnosis?
Or would diagnosis of learning disability depend on the state or region or
district in which a person lives?
Bill Fagan






On 4-Nov-07, at 7:49 PM, PatMFL at aol.com wrote:


1. For the student with a learning disability that is planning on continuing
their education at a post-secondary institute, what information should the
student know about themselves and what would be the best documentation to
provide?

2. What information should be included in a student's summary of performance
so that this document would be useful to those who will be providing
services in post-secondary settings?

3. What transition assessments provide the most useful information for the
student with a learning disability that is planning on continuing their
education in a post-secondary institution?

4. What are the skills that need to be learned by a student with a learning
disability that is transitioning from a "world on entitlement" to a "world
of eligibility"?

Patrick Mulvihill, M.Ed
Consultant
The Transition Center at the University of Florida



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