Hi Mary Lynn--

One of my mantras for students, no matter  the age, has been:  "Don't  
waste their time."  Is this what you are getting at?

Andrea

On Oct 27, 2007, at 9:01 PM, Mary Lynn Simons wrote:


>

> Community Colleges test students when they enter and then teach them  

> accordingly. It is not our job to paternalistically/maternalistically  

> decide what is best for our students beyond what they need to know to  

> be able to pass the test. We must not hold them back. Let them get to  

> college or training as fast as possible.

>

>

>

> ----------------------------------------> From:  

> Kgotthardt at comcast.net> To: assessment at nifl.gov> Date: Sat, 27 Oct  

> 2007 09:35:10 -0400> Subject: [Assessment 1007] Re: GED Discussion -  

> what you need to know!>> David, I agree that creativity is essential  

> in GED programs, especially if> students are planning to go on to  

> college! Students who pass the GED with> minimal ability to freely  

> think creatively, explore abstract ideas, and> weigh options are  

> usually at a loss in the college classroom. Most colleges> require  

> program elements such as "writing across the curriculum." As we> know,  

> writing requires abstract thought, the kind adults need to develop.>>  

> Even basic college writing classes require understanding and using>  

> rhetorical patterns found in the descriptive essay and more.  

> Humanities> courses demand students to understand and even implement  

> creative forms,> figures of speech, figurative language, and more. For  

> students to truly> understand history, they must be able to visualize  

> different time periods.> Symbolic thought translates into statistics  

> and math classes in which> graphs, numbers and equations are used to  

> communicate ideas. The list goes> on.>> Someone here or in another  

> posting made the remark that students in a GED> class who are not  

> reading in class are not practicing reading at all. If> the instructor  

> is writing on the board, if the students are writing, if the> students  

> are taking practice tests, they ARE reading. In terms of more>  

> formalized, lengthier readings, students will most likely need to take  

> that> home. Yes, this requires a certain amount of discipline that we  

> might not> get with GED students. But especially with students who  

> want to pursue> higher education after earning the GED, we need to  

> have the time to teach> them to think critically.>> Finally, I just  

> now ran across an essay from Peter Elbow whom I haven't> studied in a  

> long time but did in my past lives. The essay demonstrates how>  

> creativity is used in the college classroom as well as what GED  

> students can> expect in college (though perhaps not to this extent,  

> depending on the> teacher and the class).  

> http://www.ntlf.com/html/lib/bib/writing.htm>> I'm a firm believer in  

> extensive transitional services for GED students> planning to attend  

> college, and I think it's essential to have> communications between  

> public schools and college to make this happen if we> want GED  

> students to succeed. Part of these discussions should include>  

> creativity used and expected in every academic setting.>>> Katherine  

> Mercurio Gotthardt, ESOL Online Instructor> Prince William County  

> Public Schools> Adult Education> P.O. Box 389> Manassas, VA 20108>  

> work 703-791-8387> fax 703-791-8889>>>>>> -----Original Message----->  

> From: assessment-bounces at nifl.gov  

> [mailto:assessment-bounces at nifl.gov]On> Behalf Of David J. Rosen>  

> Sent: Friday, October 26, 2007 10:54 PM> To: The Assessment Discussion  

> List> Subject: [Assessment 1005] Re: GED Discussion - what you need to  

> know!>>> Assessment colleagues,>> Toni asked what we mean by  

> creativity. Good question. I'll give it a> shot.>> Is creativity a  

> means to an end -- that is, with creative teaching> approaches will  

> more students have more and higher academic skills,> better test  

> scores? Or is creativity itself an end -- that is, do we> want  

> students to be both academically prepared and creative? Or> both? And  

> where do critical skills fit in?>> I would argue, as Marc Tucker does,  

> that we need both high academic> skills and creativity, and I would  

> put critical thinking in both> these catregories, both as a means and  

> as an end. Our adult secondary> education (e.g. GED) programs should  

> provide students with the> opportunity to have academic skills that  

> are strong enough to succeed> in college, strong critical thinking  

> skills (these may be inseparable> from strong academic skills), and  

> the skills of creative problem> solving.>> Since this is the  

> assessment list, let me ask what are we measuring> now adult secondary  

> education programs?>> • Perhaps academic skills, at least through  

> standardized tests> • Are we measuring critical thinking skills, and  

> if so how?> • I am not aware that anyone in adult literacy education  

> is measuring> creative skills.>> If Marc Tucker is right, we are not  

> paying attention to one of the> greatest economic assets, one of the  

> historic strengths of the U.S. I> agree with Tucker and believe that  

> the nearly exclusive focus on high> stakes basic skills tests for  

> K-12, and the focus on only traditional> basic skills for the GED  

> tests disrespects important creative skills> like the ability to look  

> at a problem freshly and from different> perspectives, the ability to  

> try out and evaluate a range of> solutions, the ability to represent  

> an idea with an image, a moving> image, a drawing; a metaphor or other  

> figurative language, or> rhetoric; and the ability to understand and  

> follow, but instead to> disregard instructions or traditional paths of  

> thinking (what we now> often describe as "thinking outside the  

> box").>> Are these goals that every GED student has or should have.  

> No. Should> they be? Not necessarily. But for students who see the GED  

> or high> school diploma as a way out of poverty, as a stepping stone  

> to stable> employment and self-sufficiency, as a key to open the door  

> to> successful post-secondary learning, these are the skills we should  

> be> teaching and measuring: academic skills, including critical  

> thinking> and creativity.>> I invite your comments on this.>> David J.  

> Rosen> djrosen at comcast.net>>>> On Oct 26, 2007, at 3:39 PM, Borge,  

> Toni F wrote:>>> When we are referring to creativity do we mean  

> teaching critical>> thinking skills which once our students know how  

> to think in a>> critical thinking way they will be successful in  

> achieving their>> education and other life goals. However, just like  

> K-12 education,>> adult education is captured on the high stakes  

> spinning wheel of>> accountability which stifles creativity and  

> teachers teach to the>> test.>>>> Toni Borge>>>> BHCC>> Adult  

> Education & Transitions Program>>>> Boston, MA>>>>>>>> From:  

> assessment-bounces at nifl.gov [mailto:assessment->> bounces at nifl.gov] On  

> Behalf Of shirley ledet>> Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2007 4:30 PM>>  

> To: The Assessment Discussion List>> Subject: [Assessment 1001] Re:  

> GED Discussion - what you need to know!>>>>>>>> I agree that  

> creativity is not the enemy of success on standardized>> test. We need  

> look no further then those who have been successful>> on any type of  

> test. We tend to use terms like natuarally gifted,>> just smart, etc.  

> If you speak to these folks they are well>> rounded, enjoy reading,  

> mvies, theater, they tend to use terms like>> "I don't know, I just  

> know stuff." Researchers have found that>> this may be the reason for  

> disparity between ethnicity. I believe>> there is more disparity  

> between socio economic background then>> ethnicity. Exposure to the  

> arts, banking industry, faculty,>> medicine, legal issues as part of  

> your everyday life tends to offer>> more of an advantage when testing  

> then someone whose only exposure>> is to go to school and study hard.  

> My students participate in a>> quite a few creative projects and those  

> that "get into it" tend to>> do better in all subjects. Those that  

> feel it is a waste of time>> and they just want to "study for the GED"  

> are generally frustrated>> when "all of their hard work does not pay  

> off like they would>> like." Creativity also leads to retention;  

> especially those>> activities that have to be completed in increments.  

> Let's bring on>> more creativity!>>>> Shirley Ledet>>>> GED  

> Instructor>>>> NHC-Carver>>>> djrosen at comcast.net wrote:>>>>  

> Colleagues,>>>> I am a proponent of creativity in adult literacy  

> education -->> indeed in all education. As Marc Tucker, President of  

> the National>> Center for Education and the Economy, has said in a  

> presention>> recently to the National Commission on Adult Literacy,  

> http://>> www.caalusa.org/video/choices.html , the U.S. education  

> system -->> and he includes adult education, cannot be competitive  

> without high>> academic standards AND creativity.>>>> But many GED  

> teachers and administrators believe that their>> students will not  

> pass the GED unless they focus on skills and>> knowledge needed to  

> pass the test, that creativity is a>> "distraction" and a time-waster.  

> (Many K-12 teachers,>> administrators or policy makers also believe  

> creativity distracts>> from passing high stakes tests.) I hate to be  

> the one to raise this>> issue, but it's the key question on the minds  

> of many GED teachers>> and administrators, so I invite the panelists  

> to address it.>>>> Is creativity a distraction or is it essential for  

> success? Why?>>>>>> David J. Rosen>> djrosen at comcast.net>>>>  

> -------------- Original message ---------------------->> From: "Marie  

> Cora">>> Hi everyone,>>>>>> We've had several new subscribers over the  

> past day, and so I>> wanted to>>> give a quick reminder where you can  

> get the information on this>>> discussion. For the full announcement,  

> information on guests, and>>> suggested resources go to:>>>>>>  

> http://www.nifl.gov/lincs/discussions/assessment/>>  

> 07creativityGED.html>>>>>> If you missed the posts from yesterday -  

> there were a couple ->> you can>>> catch up in the archives at:>>>  

> http://www.nifl.gov/pipermail/assessment/2007/date.html>>>>>> Please  

> post your questions and also your own experiences to share>>  

> now!>>>>>> Thanks!!>>>>>> Marie Cora>>> Assessment Discussion List  

> Moderator>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Marie Cora>>>  

> marie.cora at hotspurpartners.com>>> NIFL Assessment Discussion List  

> Moderator>>>  

> http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/assessment>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From:  

> "Marie Cora" >> To: >> Subject: [Assessment 942] GED Discussion - what  

> you need to know!>> Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 14:43:14 +0000>>>> Hi  

> everyone,>>>>>>>> We’ve had several new subscribers over the past day,  

> and so I>> wanted to give a quick reminder where you can get the  

> information>> on this discussion. For the full announcement,  

> information on>> guests, and suggested resources go to:>>>>>>>>  

> http://www.nifl.gov/lincs/discussions/assessment/ 

> 07creativityGED.html>>>>>>>> If you missed the posts from yesterday –  

> there were a couple – you>> can catch up in the archives at:  

> http://www.nifl.gov/pipermail/>> assessment/2007/date.html>>>>>>>>  

> Please post your questions and also your own experiences to share  

> now!>>>>>>>> Thanks!!>>>>>>>> Marie Cora>>>> Assessment Discussion  

> List Moderator>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Marie Cora>>>>  

> marie.cora at hotspurpartners.com>>>> NIFL Assessment Discussion List  

> Moderator>>>>  

> http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/assessment>>>>>>>>>>>>  

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