Kearney,<br><br>I do not dispute that debating or the practice of rhetoric can improve one's ability to reason. I also believe that all rhetorical techniques, include hyperbole, allegory and even sarcasm have their place. Defending one's position, countering these techniques, and using them, is a good exercize in reasoning, even though the assumptions are usually arrived at before the "critical thinking" begins.<br>
<br>Unfortunately, the recent trend in educational circles seems to favour "dialoguing", whereby we pretend to agree with whatever is said, and look for points that we have in common, and should avoid trying to persuade anyone of one's point of view. This leads to a sterile discussion. It only works if everyone actually does agree, or if contrary views can be suppressed..<br>
<br>Here, on this forum, it has appeared to me that "critical thinking" has been discussed in the sense that English teachers are looking for ways to help their students to challenge basic their assumptions as part of their English learning, and at a very early stage in their English learning. I feel that this is unrealistic. Try persuading a religious person to challenge the basic assumptions of their religion and see how far you get.<br>
<br>Rhetoric, is a valuable and an advanced skill, and can only be taught after one has a sufficient range of vocabulary to use it effectively.<br><br>I am of the opinion that beginner ESL learners should be allowed to listen to the language and try to enjoy it, with little requirement to state what their assumptions are on anything.<br>
<br>Steve<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Jul 11, 2008 at 2:11 PM, Kearney Lykins <<a href="mailto:kearney_lykins@yahoo.com">kearney_lykins@yahoo.com</a>> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<div><div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 14pt;"><p>Steve,</p>
<p> </p>
<p>In defense of the study of rhetoric, it is precisely because it is the one field of study that openly acknowledges and examines the relationship between emotions and persuasion, that it is especially valuable in helping one to be a more critical (wiser) thinker. Yes, this knowledge can be used perniciously, but that is a question of ethics, and indeed is a concern for every field of study. </p>
<p> </p>
<p>Anyone who has ever participated in forensic speech (debate club) can surely attest to how taking "the other side" of an argument improves one's critical thinking abilities. </p>
<p> </p>
<p>Regards,</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Kearney</p>
<p> </p>
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<div style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif;"><div class="Ih2E3d">----- Original Message ----<br>From: Steve Kaufmann <<a href="mailto:steve@thelinguist.com" target="_blank">steve@thelinguist.com</a>><br>
To: The Adult Literacy Professional Development Discussion List <<a href="mailto:professionaldevelopment@nifl.gov" target="_blank">professionaldevelopment@nifl.gov</a>><br></div><div class="Ih2E3d">Sent: Friday, July 11, 2008 2:52:42 PM<br>
Subject: [ProfessionalDevelopment 2266] Re: Whatdo wemeanbystudentinvolvement and critical thinking?<br><br>Bonnie,<br><br>I agree with you. Rhetoric as practiced by the ancients is a good discipline. It helps you to organize your thoughts in order to persuade others. This forces you to think about logical connections between ideas. It does not make you more open minded. Most of us arrive at our points of view emotionally, rather than through some clear "critical thinking" path. The skills of rhetoric are useful tools for persuading others of our beliefs. I do not think that most English teachers, myself included, can teach our learners to
think, critically or otherwise, nor is it our mandate.<br>Here is what I said recently in reply to a questioner at one of my youtubes.<br>
<div>
<div>1) You can teach methods of organizing your thoughts in order to express them convincingly. I don't believe ESL teachers can teach how to think, how to be open to new ideas, how to question assumptions, without imposing their own assumptions. We arrive at our views based more on emotion than logic, and use logic to justify these views.<br>
2)Language is part of your culture and affects your world view. Each successive language you learn opens your mind to new perspectives. </div></div>
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<br>-- <br>Steve Kaufmann<br><a href="http://www.lingq.com">www.lingq.com</a><br>1-604-922-8514