Seems to me critical thinking follows a clear structure and includes
deductive reasoning. Just insisting on your perspective in louder and louder
tones has little to do with critical thinking.  Louise


On 7/10/08 8:31 AM, "Janet Isserlis" <Janet_Isserlis at brown.edu> wrote:


> I think we're also losing (or maybe teasing apart?) some of the finer

> distinctions between critical thinking and persuasive arguing.

> 

> Sometimes saying it again, saying it more loudly may sway a listener.  But

> it's easy to be loud, and even sequential , and yet still not think

> critically.

> 

> Think of some politician whose views you don't share.  S/he may be clear, have

> a beginning, middle and end of her/his oration, and yet, at the end of the

> day, hasn't problematized anything, hasn't asked him/herself to think about

> something differently and/or imagine different outcomes and certainly hasn't

> moved his/her audience beyond the thing they were thinking about the candidate

> or the issue before they came to the rally, the speech, the demonstration.

> 

> In other words, it feels like some of this thread is parsing out the things

> people need to be able to do to articulate ideas, but we're not (entirely)

> quite digging into what has to happen to think critically.

> 

> Maybe it's a continuum of sorts ‹ to engage in a project, we analyze what

> we'll do, what the goals are, what the outcomes might be, etc.  But to then

> push ourselves a bit more critically, we might ask why the project is

> important, who gains or loses / in whose interest are we undertaking the

> project...?

> 

> It is fascinating.

> 

> Janet

> 

> 

> 

> From: Steve Kaufmann <steve at thelinguist.com>

> Reply-To: The Adult Literacy Professional Development Discussion List

> <professionaldevelopment at nifl.gov>

> Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 21:11:36 -0700

> To: The Adult Literacy Professional Development Discussion List

> <professionaldevelopment at nifl.gov>

> Subject: [ProfessionalDevelopment 2242] Re: What do we mean

> bystudentinvolvement and critical thinking?

> 

> Hi Heide and others,

> 

> I must say I am enjoying this exchange of views and I apologize if I am at

> times a little blunt, but then maybe that comes with the years.

> 

> Heide, the ability to carry an argument requires good language skills or,

> failing that, a loud voice. The fact that many native speakers cannot carry an

> argument only means that native proficiency is not a sufficient condition for

> carrying an argument. However, often those native speakers who cannot carry an

> argument are merely some of the many native speakers who use their own

> language poorly, or have a limited vocabulary in their own language.

> 

> I believe that poor language skills, whether for a native or non-native, are a

> definite obstacle to carrying an argument or even expressing ideas. Goethe

> once said "When ideas fail, words really come in handy." Often, when at a loss

> for how to express yourself, if you have words, and start using them, the

> structure and arguments will come. Without enough words, you are lost.

> 

> The thesis, antithesis, synthesis formula is but one of many useful structures

> to enable people to organize their thoughts quickly for an oral or written

> expose. They are good tools, and useful in exams, or any situation where one

> has to organize one's thoughts in a hurry. They are certainly artificial and

> superficial, but useful. However, without enough words, they can become empty

> and sterile.

> 

> I believe that it is difficult to teach critical thinking. In a language

> learning context, the discussion of critical thinking should, in my view, be

> limited to the most advanced students, bearing in mind that the expression of

> that critical thinking in a style that will be appreciated, is very culturally

> sensitive. 

> 

> It is possible to encourage learners to enrich their vocabulary, and

> knowledge, and range of perspectives , through wide reading and listening in a

> given language. With that will come an improved ability to express views in

> that language. That will be perceived as an expression of critical thinking.

> 

> Steve

> 

> 

> On Wed, Jul 9, 2008 at 2:11 PM, Wrigley, Heide <heide at literacywork.com> wrote:

>> Hi, Steve and Bonnie and others

>>  

>> I'm not sure that the ability to carry an argument requires good language

>> skills first and foremost - native speakers often are at a loss of how to set

>> up an argument, defute an argument, or recognize faulty thinking or

>> manipuation.  Certainly, being able to articulate once thoughts requires

>> strong language skills - so these skills may be necessary but by no means

>> sufficient . 

>>  

>> In terms of schooling, I come from the tradition that Bonnie describes where

>> there was great value attached to "logical reasoning" and setting up a

>> dialogical essay (thesis, antithesis, synthesis). However, while this is a

>> great skill to have in debates and makes it possilbe to trounce others in bar

>> conversations as you punch holes in their assertions, it does leave out

>> "other ways of knowing" (and if only ever the twain could meet).

>>  

>> So on to "critical literacies" then and the possibilities for teaching and

>> learning these notions present?

>>  

>> All the best 

>>  

>> Heide Spruck Wrigley

>> Mesilla, NM 

>>  

>>  

>> 

>> From: professionaldevelopment-bounces at nifl.gov

>> [professionaldevelopment-bounces at nifl.gov] On Behalf Of Steve Kaufmann

>> [steve at thelinguist.com]

>> Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2008 1:03 PM

>> To: Bonnie Odiorne; The Adult Literacy Professional Development Discussion

>> List

>> Subject: [ProfessionalDevelopment 2231] Re: What do we mean

>> bystudentinvolvement and critical thinking?

>> 

>> With regard to Bonnie's post, I feel that critical thinking is not the same

>> as the ability to present an argument. The former exists to some extent in

>> all of us, and I doubt that it can be deliberately taught as a skill without

>> getting pretty condescending. It is dependent on our personality, culture,

>> and exposure to a variety of experience and points of view.

>> 

>> The ability to carry an argument requires good language skills, first and

>> foremost. I do not mean getting the article, tenses and prepositions right, I

>> mean control of a wide vocabulary. In an academic setting it means being able

>> to look at both sides of an argument, to describe competing points of view,

>> and then explain convincingly why one is superior or truer than others. Even

>> ancient Roman rhetoric had the Refutatio where the orator at least pretended

>> to present a view contrary to his own, only to then take it apart.

>> 

>> Steve

>> 

>> On Wed, Jul 9, 2008 at 11:42 AM, Bonnie Odiorne <bonniesophia at sbcglobal.net>

>> wrote:

>>> I'm very interested in writing and critical thinking at the moment. Stay

>>> with me here: this may get a little convoluted. Don't get me wrong: I don't

>>> for a heartbeat think that most ESOL students, even fairly "advanced" ones

>>> who might be taking college courses, have the language capacity to express

>>> clearly and concisely the critical thinking that may be going on in their

>>> heads but they just can't express. I'm thinking of agency and writing, and

>>> got into a bit of a conundrum in an English class recently. I'd always

>>> though an "argument" paper was one in which one stated a position and

>>> supported it with evidence, documented, or from personal experience. It

>>> turns out that the author of our text thought the argumentative paper is one

>>> that seeks to convince someone to change a thought or value or to do

>>> something, and the writer can use many strategies to effect this task.

>>> 

>>>     So I'm wondering whether critical thinking is taught in how I used the

>>> argument, the abiity to connect thoughts, support them, and come to a

>>> sustainable conclusion: could be called expository, the presentation of

>>> information, that could demonstrate many levels of critical thinking. The

>>> argumentative or persuasive paper, on the other hand, would be to convince,

>>> and therein lies agency, I think, the "active" part of "activism": actually

>>> doing something to change a situation.

>>> 

>>>     I'd relate these ideas in writing/thinking to Bloom's Taxonomy, and the

>>> verbs that are associated with various positions on the pyramid. For a good

>>> link to that, go to

>>> http://social.chass.ncsu.edu/slatta/hi216/learning/bloom.htm

>>> 

>>> Just thinking out loud, critically or not.... :-)

>>> 

>>> Bonnie Odiorne

>>> 

>>> 

>>> 

>>>  

>>> 

>>> ----------------------------------------------------

>>> National Institute for Literacy

>>> Adult Literacy Professional Development mailing list

>>> professionaldevelopment at nifl.gov

>>> 

>>> To unsubscribe or change your subscription settings, please go to

>>> http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/professionaldevelopment

>>> 

>>> Professional Development section of the Adult Literacy Education Wiki

>>> http://wiki.literacytent.org/index.php/Adult_Literacy_Professional_Developme

>>> nt

>> 

>> 



-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://www.nifl.gov/pipermail/professionaldevelopment/attachments/20080710/45ac2fab/attachment-0001.html