[ProfessionalDevelopment 2245] Re: What do we mean bystudentinvolvement and critical thinking?Louise Wiener lwiener at llfinc.orgThu Jul 10 10:54:53 EDT 2008
Seems to me critical thinking follows a clear structure and includes deductive reasoning. Just insisting on your perspective in louder and louder tones has little to do with critical thinking. Louise On 7/10/08 8:31 AM, "Janet Isserlis" <Janet_Isserlis at brown.edu> wrote: > I think we're also losing (or maybe teasing apart?) some of the finer > distinctions between critical thinking and persuasive arguing. > > Sometimes saying it again, saying it more loudly may sway a listener. But > it's easy to be loud, and even sequential , and yet still not think > critically. > > Think of some politician whose views you don't share. S/he may be clear, have > a beginning, middle and end of her/his oration, and yet, at the end of the > day, hasn't problematized anything, hasn't asked him/herself to think about > something differently and/or imagine different outcomes and certainly hasn't > moved his/her audience beyond the thing they were thinking about the candidate > or the issue before they came to the rally, the speech, the demonstration. > > In other words, it feels like some of this thread is parsing out the things > people need to be able to do to articulate ideas, but we're not (entirely) > quite digging into what has to happen to think critically. > > Maybe it's a continuum of sorts to engage in a project, we analyze what > we'll do, what the goals are, what the outcomes might be, etc. But to then > push ourselves a bit more critically, we might ask why the project is > important, who gains or loses / in whose interest are we undertaking the > project...? > > It is fascinating. > > Janet > > > > From: Steve Kaufmann <steve at thelinguist.com> > Reply-To: The Adult Literacy Professional Development Discussion List > <professionaldevelopment at nifl.gov> > Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 21:11:36 -0700 > To: The Adult Literacy Professional Development Discussion List > <professionaldevelopment at nifl.gov> > Subject: [ProfessionalDevelopment 2242] Re: What do we mean > bystudentinvolvement and critical thinking? > > Hi Heide and others, > > I must say I am enjoying this exchange of views and I apologize if I am at > times a little blunt, but then maybe that comes with the years. > > Heide, the ability to carry an argument requires good language skills or, > failing that, a loud voice. The fact that many native speakers cannot carry an > argument only means that native proficiency is not a sufficient condition for > carrying an argument. However, often those native speakers who cannot carry an > argument are merely some of the many native speakers who use their own > language poorly, or have a limited vocabulary in their own language. > > I believe that poor language skills, whether for a native or non-native, are a > definite obstacle to carrying an argument or even expressing ideas. Goethe > once said "When ideas fail, words really come in handy." Often, when at a loss > for how to express yourself, if you have words, and start using them, the > structure and arguments will come. Without enough words, you are lost. > > The thesis, antithesis, synthesis formula is but one of many useful structures > to enable people to organize their thoughts quickly for an oral or written > expose. They are good tools, and useful in exams, or any situation where one > has to organize one's thoughts in a hurry. They are certainly artificial and > superficial, but useful. However, without enough words, they can become empty > and sterile. > > I believe that it is difficult to teach critical thinking. In a language > learning context, the discussion of critical thinking should, in my view, be > limited to the most advanced students, bearing in mind that the expression of > that critical thinking in a style that will be appreciated, is very culturally > sensitive. > > It is possible to encourage learners to enrich their vocabulary, and > knowledge, and range of perspectives , through wide reading and listening in a > given language. With that will come an improved ability to express views in > that language. That will be perceived as an expression of critical thinking. > > Steve > > > On Wed, Jul 9, 2008 at 2:11 PM, Wrigley, Heide <heide at literacywork.com> wrote: >> Hi, Steve and Bonnie and others >> >> I'm not sure that the ability to carry an argument requires good language >> skills first and foremost - native speakers often are at a loss of how to set >> up an argument, defute an argument, or recognize faulty thinking or >> manipuation. Certainly, being able to articulate once thoughts requires >> strong language skills - so these skills may be necessary but by no means >> sufficient . >> >> In terms of schooling, I come from the tradition that Bonnie describes where >> there was great value attached to "logical reasoning" and setting up a >> dialogical essay (thesis, antithesis, synthesis). However, while this is a >> great skill to have in debates and makes it possilbe to trounce others in bar >> conversations as you punch holes in their assertions, it does leave out >> "other ways of knowing" (and if only ever the twain could meet). >> >> So on to "critical literacies" then and the possibilities for teaching and >> learning these notions present? >> >> All the best >> >> Heide Spruck Wrigley >> Mesilla, NM >> >> >> >> From: professionaldevelopment-bounces at nifl.gov >> [professionaldevelopment-bounces at nifl.gov] On Behalf Of Steve Kaufmann >> [steve at thelinguist.com] >> Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2008 1:03 PM >> To: Bonnie Odiorne; The Adult Literacy Professional Development Discussion >> List >> Subject: [ProfessionalDevelopment 2231] Re: What do we mean >> bystudentinvolvement and critical thinking? >> >> With regard to Bonnie's post, I feel that critical thinking is not the same >> as the ability to present an argument. The former exists to some extent in >> all of us, and I doubt that it can be deliberately taught as a skill without >> getting pretty condescending. It is dependent on our personality, culture, >> and exposure to a variety of experience and points of view. >> >> The ability to carry an argument requires good language skills, first and >> foremost. I do not mean getting the article, tenses and prepositions right, I >> mean control of a wide vocabulary. In an academic setting it means being able >> to look at both sides of an argument, to describe competing points of view, >> and then explain convincingly why one is superior or truer than others. Even >> ancient Roman rhetoric had the Refutatio where the orator at least pretended >> to present a view contrary to his own, only to then take it apart. >> >> Steve >> >> On Wed, Jul 9, 2008 at 11:42 AM, Bonnie Odiorne <bonniesophia at sbcglobal.net> >> wrote: >>> I'm very interested in writing and critical thinking at the moment. Stay >>> with me here: this may get a little convoluted. Don't get me wrong: I don't >>> for a heartbeat think that most ESOL students, even fairly "advanced" ones >>> who might be taking college courses, have the language capacity to express >>> clearly and concisely the critical thinking that may be going on in their >>> heads but they just can't express. I'm thinking of agency and writing, and >>> got into a bit of a conundrum in an English class recently. I'd always >>> though an "argument" paper was one in which one stated a position and >>> supported it with evidence, documented, or from personal experience. It >>> turns out that the author of our text thought the argumentative paper is one >>> that seeks to convince someone to change a thought or value or to do >>> something, and the writer can use many strategies to effect this task. >>> >>> So I'm wondering whether critical thinking is taught in how I used the >>> argument, the abiity to connect thoughts, support them, and come to a >>> sustainable conclusion: could be called expository, the presentation of >>> information, that could demonstrate many levels of critical thinking. The >>> argumentative or persuasive paper, on the other hand, would be to convince, >>> and therein lies agency, I think, the "active" part of "activism": actually >>> doing something to change a situation. >>> >>> I'd relate these ideas in writing/thinking to Bloom's Taxonomy, and the >>> verbs that are associated with various positions on the pyramid. For a good >>> link to that, go to >>> http://social.chass.ncsu.edu/slatta/hi216/learning/bloom.htm >>> >>> Just thinking out loud, critically or not.... :-) >>> >>> Bonnie Odiorne >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ---------------------------------------------------- >>> National Institute for Literacy >>> Adult Literacy Professional Development mailing list >>> professionaldevelopment at nifl.gov >>> >>> To unsubscribe or change your subscription settings, please go to >>> http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/professionaldevelopment >>> >>> Professional Development section of the Adult Literacy Education Wiki >>> http://wiki.literacytent.org/index.php/Adult_Literacy_Professional_Developme >>> nt >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.nifl.gov/pipermail/professionaldevelopment/attachments/20080710/45ac2fab/attachment-0001.html
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