[LearningDisabilities 1844] Re: are we blaming the victim?Glenn Young gyoungxlt at roadrunner.comThu Mar 27 15:43:26 EDT 2008
Sue . Again . I need to restate that it is not fair to judge how things work or are going based on one program or state . I am talking based on the aggregate numbers . I have no doubt that what you are saying is true for your program . but that does not mean it is true nationally or is a fair representation of what is going on . it may be only true for you . we need to talk statistically . not anecdotally . and there could be a great deal of "exogenous" factors that makes your program work while others do not . And I must address your reference to the deaf community .. And what can be said is that in the ABE programs . as opposed to the deaf community . far more people can "hear" then can read . and in the deaf community .. by definition, they can not hear or hear well . but they have vision .. So they take advantage of their vision to gain skills and knowledge .. And by definition . people in the ABE community can not read or read well (They wouldn't be in the ABE program is they can read well, and if they could not hear they would be seeking service from the deaf community) . And yes, there are people in the ABE community that also have hearing problems .etc . but on average . generally . my statement is true . And all the years of effort . in general .the teaching to read approach has not worked for most people attending ABE programs (as shooting louder at a deaf person has not worked in the deaf community) . yes there are people who have made progress . but in general it has not worked . and again . those who make it into the ABE programs are in fact an elite part of the population . since we know that a great many drop out and that many more can not even find a "seat" . so even in judging the elite . we see the system mainly does not even meet their needs . And if treated the deaf community like we treat the ABE community . we be insisting that all deaf people need to hear . to get knowledge . there be no close captioning on TV . and audio enhancements at movies and public meetings . and there be no requirements for sign language interpreter services or phone rely services or requirements that all public entities have TTY devices .. no special education (or schools for the deaf) etc . but these things are in place and allow for great deal of participation in knowledge acquisition by the deaf community . but we still insist that the ABE community can only gain this knowledge by learning how "to read" when there are so many other tools available .. So . yes if listening was the only thing allowed .. the deaf community would be a real great disadvantage, and mainly illiterate . so why do we insist on putting the ABE populations at that same disadvantage, as saying that only listening would be allowed for deaf,. and cause them to remain mainly illiterate . while the deaf community focuses on their strengths (vision) and use technology at every hand to gain access to knowledge . we deny that approach to the ABE community . So lets try focusing on the potential strength of the ABE community of listening ..and enhancing knowledge though the use of technology to been enable that listening to eliminate the barrier to knowledge presented by "reading disabilities" . Glenn Young CSLD 530 Auburn Ave Buffalo NY 14222 Cell 703-864-3755 Phone/Fax 716-882-2842 website: glennyoungcsld.com _____ From: McGilloway, Susan [mailto:smcgilloway at ccbcmd.edu] Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2008 2:43 PM To: Glenn Young; The Learning Disabilities Discussion List Subject: RE: [LearningDisabilities 1829] Re: are we blaming the victim? Glenn, There are many programs out there that provide excellent instruction within the funding constraints we all have. We are customer focused. We are constantly and actively searching for alternate means of providing student centered instruction. Our 75% retention rate speaks volumes. As I said, we do a great deal of professional development on differented instruction to attempt to meet the needs of our students. Many times students stop out due to personal issues. If an employer requests additional work hours, the student will do what he/she needs to do to put food on the table and a roof over the family's head. These are issues with which our classroom advisors try to assist the student. We offer the student alternate class days/times, interim tutoring opportunities, packets of materials to do while out of class. It seems there is no one approach that works for everyone. Technology is a partial answer, but as Tom stated from his research, listening is only one piece of the puzzle. If listening were the total answer, the entire deaf community would be illiterate. Sue McGilloway Coordinator, Volunteers in Partnership CAFL Career Advisor CCBC Center for Adult and Family Literacy 410-285-9933 Phone smcgilloway at ccbcmd.edu Who I am is not a goal to achieve but a gift to receive, and I'm learning to wake up each morning and receive it. _____ From: Glenn Young [mailto:gyoungxlt at roadrunner.com] Sent: Thu 3/27/2008 2:05 PM To: 'The Learning Disabilities Discussion List'; McGilloway, Susan Subject: RE: [LearningDisabilities 1829] Re: are we blaming the victim? I disagree with the premise you are presenting ... that it's the students "responsibility" to be ready ... What is happening is they are coming in with needs and the programs are offering a response that does not meet their needs .... (Getting the GED Quickly, for example) And they leave ... and then they find out that they still need to "get the ticket" so they come back ... and still it does not meet their needs But then they find there is no alternative ... so they come back and keep trying for years ... This is not a positive picture ... and by saying this is the "student's responsibility ... this is kind of like "blaming the victim" We should and can now have a system that really meets the immediate needs of the learners and focuses on that need ... through a new model ... they don't need to drop out time and time again ... if we give them what they really need ... rather then only what we think we can offer ... We need to be customer focused and not blame the customer if they don't like or want what we offer .... Glenn Young CSLD 530 Auburn Ave Buffalo NY 14222 Cell 703-864-3755 Phone/Fax 716-882-2842 website: glennyoungcsld.com -----Original Message----- From: learningdisabilities-bounces at nifl.gov [mailto:learningdisabilities-bounces at nifl.gov] On Behalf Of Cindy Fischer Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2008 1:28 PM To: smcgilloway at ccbcmd.edu; learningdisabilities at nifl.gov Subject: [LearningDisabilities 1829] Re: [Possible SPAM]Re:Controversialagain Susan, I agree with you 100%. Our learners don't drop out. On any given day, we have two three who return after stopping out for more than 3 years. Many have to wait until they're ready to make that commitment. Yes, we need to "capture their attention" within the first three weeks, or they vote with their feet. However, if they're not ready, nothing can change it. The beautiful thing is that so many do return when they're ready, and we're here waiting for them -- no questions asked. Cindy "If you believe in good things, you can make them happen." >>> "McGilloway, Susan" <smcgilloway at ccbcmd.edu> 03/26/08 1:44 PM >>> I don't think we fail if a student "stops out". We have many students who do that. "Stopping out" is one of the characteristics of adult literacy learners. We had one student who, after ten years in the program on and off, finally graduated through the External Diploma Program. Sometimes it is a question of finding the right path for the student. We encourage students to take whichever path serves their needs. In our program we have a 75% retention rate. We do a great deal of professional development on retention and have focus groups among our 100+ teachers where they share their strategies for retention. Also, we don't keep teachers who have poor retention. We serve around 1800 ABE/GED students/year and just as many ESOL and so we see it all. Our numbers are above the national and state averages. Our instructional specialist communicates with teachers through email and phone on a daily basis, provides the latest in strategies, ideas for differentiated instruction, brain based learning research - literally anything that will promote learning and retention. Her theory is "if you don't get their attention in the first three weeks, you lose them." We have, for the most part, a very student centered program in which many of our teachers use differentiated instruction. We also have paid literacy aides and volunteers who serve as classroom assistants and individual tutors who meet with students to supplement classroom instruction. Our twenty classroom advisors assist students with barriers that prevent them from coming to class. We have a strong enrollment management plan in which we offer classes at different days/time/location according to the data from our market trends. Also, we have year round and late start classes that serve the needs of those students who can't start right away or who want to get started immediately. Even with all this, we have a hundred students on our waiting list for next semester. Do we fail...absolutely not! Sue McGilloway Coordinator, Volunteers in Partnership CAFL Career Advisor CCBC Center for Adult and Family Literacy 410-285-9933 Phone smcgilloway at ccbcmd.edu ________________________________ From: learningdisabilities-bounces at nifl.gov on behalf of Trish Hembrough Sent: Wed 3/26/2008 9:31 AM To: The Learning Disabilities Discussion List Subject: [LearningDisabilities 1816] Re: [Possible SPAM]Re:Controversialagain Glenn, Consider yourself officially asked! I am waiting anxiously - on pins and needles! :-) Trish Patricia Hembrough Director of Education Services Adult Learner Program Project Hope 550 Dudley Street Roxbury, MA 02119 617-442-1880 ext.250 www.prohope.org <http://www.prohope.org/> where families move up and out of poverty ________________________________ From: learningdisabilities-bounces at nifl.gov [mailto:learningdisabilities-bounces at nifl.gov] On Behalf Of Glenn Young Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2008 10:07 PM To: 'The Learning Disabilities Discussion List' Subject: [LearningDisabilities 1814] Re: [Possible SPAM] Re:Controversialagain Geraldine ... Yes I have a proposal ... but I was waiting to see if anyone was really paying attention .... So yes I do have you hanging to see if people were really open to a new approach to the issue ... So ... if a few more ask ... then I present it ... Glenn Young CSLD 530 Auburn Ave Buffalo NY 14222 Cell 703-864-3755 Phone/Fax 716-882-2842 website: glennyoungcsld.com ________________________________ From: learningdisabilities-bounces at nifl.gov [mailto:learningdisabilities-bounces at nifl.gov] On Behalf Of Hayden, Geraldine M. Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2008 3:53 PM To: The Learning Disabilities Discussion List Subject: [LearningDisabilities 1813] Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Controversialagain Glenn, I always tell my students that if you have a concern or complaint, you must offer a viable solution. You seem to have us hanging with a plausible solution. What do you have in mind? Geri Hayden Geraldine M. Hayden SPED/504 Coordinator Department of Correctional Education Fluvanna Correctional Center for Women ________________________________ From: learningdisabilities-bounces at nifl.gov [mailto:learningdisabilities-bounces at nifl.gov] On Behalf Of Glenn Young Sent: Monday, March 24, 2008 1:25 PM To: 'The Learning Disabilities Discussion List' Subject: [Possible SPAM] [LearningDisabilities 1805] Re: Controversial again Well at least I started some interesting discussion And I must add that when we talk "on average" ... what one must do ... dear I say it ... is not compare their local or even state programs per say ... but to look at the national aggravate data .... We really can not tell without a great deal of work... where our state or local program fits along the "bell curve" of all ABE students or all ABE programs ... So, while people respond to the data I present ... based on their own programs or states it becomes a bit more problematic in how to have the discussion if they stand only on their local data ... and want to have a dispute over a percentage or two ... we need to look at the issues I am raising in a bit more of global perspective. And the key point that has been raised so far ... that we can or can not measure success based on if students meet their goals ... well that is the crux of my point ... If we don't meet the goals of the students ... what is our purpose? My point on this is that it does not really matter if we think the goals are unrealistic or not ... it is their goals and they have a reason for having these goals ... and a reason often imposed upon them by other factors than the ABE system, or wishful thinking ... such as welfare clients being told they have 6 months to get a GED or they can't stay on welfare ... unrealistic or not ... the pressures upon them are real and therefore their goals are real to them ... Also, if a person wants to get into an internship with a labor union or a training program in the food industry etc ... and they may require a GED ... the student's goal of getting the GED is an economic necessity, a great needed item ... often the key to economic success for that student ... and not something they can wait 3-5 years to obtain. So with these pressure, which are very real and very impacting on their lives ... the ABE program says the goal is unrealistic ... but that really does not matter to the person coming in, the customer ... the GED is what they need and the GED is what is their goal ...saying or inferring that the goal can not be met or met in a timely fashion is a major reason why they customer will leave, and we failed them. Currently the ABE system offers an approach that provides a path to the GED on average that will take 3-5 years (that means for some its will be a lot faster, and for other much, much longer, if at all ... ) and then We measure our success with a great deal of "selection bias" , which makes it appear that our programs do better then they do ... (in this case the selection is that those who stay often only need a limited amount of help and those who don't stay are the ones who need a lot more help ... and therefore ... in the short run it appears out programs work for many of those who stay ... but the selection bias is very great and we can not really say that the programs, on average, really work well for the majority of those in need ...only for whom the current model fits and then only some of them.) My point is that we should not be saying ... the goal is unrealistic. That does not help the client. We need to be asking ... how can this client's goal be reached? To meet her/his needs ... to address to their crisis ....And if we consistently can not meet the goal ... then is it ABE that needs to be changing, not limiting or changing the goals of the customers ... Can we figure out a way to not say we can't meet these much needed goals ... but to be asking how can we "modernize" to meet the goals? .... And to steal a much used phrase of this political season ... yes we can! So what is the change? For the person who asked about Orton Gillingham, while a far more valid approach to reading for adults then the methods mostly used ... that is not a solution for the short time ... it still takes years to gain the skills ...often taking hundreds of hours that builds on the intensity of each session (something most adults do not have the time to do, in a concentrated time fashion.) ... and also the key problem in passing the GED is not just reading skills but knowledge ... and so we need a solution that focuses gaining the knowledge to pass the GED.) Therefore ... again ... I am asking ... is there a different approach, a different paradigm in which we can meet the needs of the greater amount of customers? The ones who appear to have such "unrealistic" but really needed goals. Not meeting the needs of the teachers in thinking they are helping by increasing the literacy skills to some degree, but a different way of helping out customers meet their needs in reaching the much needed goal of getting the GED, or keeping that job, or getting a new job or staying on welfare till they can work, or getting into the apprenticeship program, or retraining to fit the new economy ... etc... you know, ... what the customers needs. ... So I do say yes ... and it is not that more costly ... and considering cost benefit analysis ... it is far cheaper .... Then the current models, and far more productive for the customer ... And when I give the solution ... I can hear all the objections now ... because it is really so customer focused (and teachers are not the customers of ABE) but I just want the chance to prove it ... And if we can just get a state or two to field test the idea ... I can prove it too ... (unfortunately the big grant foundation I was after, and had high hopes for, just turned us down ....) anyone got a little funding to create a new world or opportunities? Oh yes ... the solution ... like a good cliffhanger ... details later ... after more response. Glenn Young CSLD 530 Auburn Ave Buffalo NY 14222 Cell 703-864-3755 Phone/Fax 716-882-2842 website: glennyoungcsld.com ________________________________ From: learningdisabilities-bounces at nifl.gov [mailto:learningdisabilities-bounces at nifl.gov] On Behalf Of Bruce C Sent: Monday, March 24, 2008 11:00 AM To: The Learning Disabilities Discussion List Subject: [LearningDisabilities 1801] Re: Controversial again Dear List, I could write forever about this, but I'll try to be succint: First of all, adult literacy programs are working with a very challenging population. We work with people who--for a variety of largely unresearched reasons--did not learn to read in the ways that most people were able to learn. It is unrealistic to expect that people who have struggled all their lives to learn how to read would all suddenly have an easy time of learning. Also, what are we talking about when we talk about students achieving their ABE goals? Most people come to my program saying they want their GED. Many take years to get that. Some don't ever get a GED, but they improve their literacy levels. What is the impact on income, civic involvement, children's literacy levels if someone's reading level goes up? We don't know, but I would sure like to find out. Finally, why is it considered a problem if 20% drop out in the first few hours? 80% stay and 20% decide they are not ready to make the commitment now. It's like joining a gym. It's easy to sign up, but hard to work out three times a week. Also, how many of those 20% come back later when the time is right? from Bruce Carmel Glenn Young <gyoungxlt at roadrunner.com> wrote: OK David ... but that's just your nature Are there others? Glenn Young CSLD 530 Auburn Ave Buffalo NY 14222 Cell 703-864-3755 Phone/Fax 716-882-2842 website: glennyoungcsld.com -----Original Message----- From: learningdisabilities-bounces at nifl.gov [mailto:learningdisabilities-bounces at nifl.gov] On Behalf Of David J. Rosen Sent: Monday, March 24, 2008 8:46 AM To: The Learning Disabilities Discussion List Subject: [LearningDisabilities 1796] Controversial again Glenn, On Mar 23, 2008, at 10:20 PM, Glenn Young wrote: > Well . before I offer arguments on how to change this . I'd like to > see if this stimulates conversation. I'm intrigued. Continue. David J. Rosen djrosen at comcast.net On Mar 23, 2008, at 10:20 PM, Glenn Young wrote: > OK . I've been urged to come back in and raise a few > "controversial" points > > > > So . let me start by asking some questions - Leading to the > conclusion --- that we need to comprehensive reform of the ABE > system . and that reform needs to focus on the extensive use of the > new technologies that are generally available to all (who can > afford them) . and these questions are: > > > > On average . how long does it take for a person entering ABE > programs to reach their goals, if they stay in the program long > enough to reach their goals? > > > > On average . how many persons entering ABE programs "drop out" > before reaching their goals? > > > > And again, on average, how many "efforts" (starting and then > dropping out and then starting again) does it take for an ABE > student to reach their goals? > > > > The answer to these questions will of course vary from location to > location (great teachers, more "modern" approaches, less "impacted" > students . > > > > Also the current answers will change quite a bit as the > demographics of the ABE population changes as more of the impacts > of NCLB are felt in the ABE programs (which we have seen quite a > bit of change in the demographics especially in the South, where > ABE has become the standard "placement" for 10th graders who do not > "test well" and high school drop out rates have soared in the past > 7 years . > > > > OK . given all of that . anyone want to guess at what the "current > numbers seem to be? > > > > So should I just give them? > > > > Well . I will give the best information I have . based on the US > DEPT of ED reports based on their National Reporting System . which > really does not cover these points very well . but we can see what > we can see .. > > > > On average . it currently takes some 3-5 years before a person > reaches their goals in ABE programs > > On average . in actuality very few persons stay 3-5 years and so > less then 10% actually reach their goals . at least 20% of people > drop out of programs within the first then hours of service . > > On average - people try something like 3 times before dropping out > for good. > > > > So . it appears on average the ABE system fails almost all it > serves and fails them dramatically > > > > So . how do we change this? > > > > Well . before I offer arguments on how to change this . I'd like to > see if this stimulates conversation. > > > > Thank > > > > > > Glenn Young > > CSLD > > 530 Auburn Ave > > Buffalo NY 14222 > > Cell 703-864-3755 > > Phone/Fax 716-882-2842 > > website: glennyoungcsld.com ---------------------------------------------------- National Institute for Literacy Learning Disabilities mailing list LearningDisabilities at nifl.gov To unsubscribe or change your subscription settings, please go to http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/learningdisabilities Email delivered to gyoungxlt at roadrunner.com ---------------------------------------------------- National Institute for Literacy Learning Disabilities mailing list LearningDisabilities at nifl.gov To unsubscribe or change your subscription settings, please go to http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/learningdisabilities Email delivered to bcarmel at rocketmail.com ________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. 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